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"Denials And The Denying Deniers Who Deny Them"

Braderunner Rennuredarb
post 25.Feb.2006, 03:50 PM
Post #16
Location: Not in Sweden
Joined: 24.May.2005

Carol:

Self policing IS the answer...and people should be a little more sensitive to the effect that it has on others...but...the truth is that they dont a lot of times...and you just cant MAKE them be sensitive. You brought up a specific day for remembering the Holocaust and the use of a public venue for the commemoration. Personally, I would have mentioned something to the other group to say - "Hey, can you guys move this a week...or a day in some direction?" or I would move the Rememberance day if they got all pissy...(unless its a national recognized holiday/tradition or something like that - and I would just explain it to them)

But like I said...you cant MAKE people care. Sorry - on holocaust day, I am going to eat my ham sandwich if thats what I want - but I wont have a burn a jew parade. On Good Friday, I might have a filet steak rare with blue cheese crumbles and a beer - but I wont dance a "Jesus was gay and a liar" jig outside of a church. On Ramadan, I might go on a rib BBQ bonanza but I am not going to blow up a mosque. I just think people need to have thicker skins and learn to IGNORE people that might be disrespecting them instead of crying for help from someone.
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*Carol*
post 25.Feb.2006, 03:58 PM
Post #17


Jason--or ideally go live somewhere where we feel safe and with like thinking individuals. Where or where is Carol Island, for example?

I STILL don't like the develop a thicker hide solution. That's not working when more and more minorities get vocal. And I do see anti-semitism and other racist feelings behind that "develop a thicker skin" mentality (Why don't these minorities have skins as thick as ours?) I don't think Jews would feel offended if you ate a ham sandwich, because you aren't Jewish. That's not the point. But what about a life where being [Jewish] isn't questioned, isn't regarded as "other," like my friend wanted to experience in Israel.
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Aneud
post 25.Feb.2006, 04:21 PM
Post #18
Location: Stockholm
Joined: 27.Nov.2005

QUOTE (Dock Ellis)
QUOTE (RoyE)
I'd say that stepping out on to this slippery slope is a big mistake.

If we don't believe in freedom of speech for everyone, we don't believe in it for anyone.


That's what it's about Carol, there is no other way. There are no plausable shades of grey when it comes to freedom of expression.

Here's an example, say I/we/some people who have the ability to pass a law think your following position on not wanting absolute freedom of speech is hateful

QUOTE (Carol)
And yeah, I don't want free speech when it's hateful, and not just with the proof of inciting to violence.


Now should you be thrown in jail for having that position and expressing it?

Also as Jason also well said there is no way to enforce common sense, intelligence, sensitivity or empathy through laws. They can maybe be educated, yes but not forced upon anyone.
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*Carol*
post 25.Feb.2006, 04:45 PM
Post #19


Aneud, I see your points, although I don't see how I could get jailed for the sentence you quoted, as there was no hate in it.

I just can't see happily walking down a street in London hearing denunciations of the Danish and Americans and feeling no threatening feeling that wouldn't colour my day and how I would act...I didn't like seeing signs saying "All Jews to the Gas" in Holland...such sights are fear-creating and make people uncomfortable with all who resemble the placard carriers...creating more stress in society...

No, I would keep such free speech limited to small gatherings in small areas...with no press coverage...I find it dangerous. Yes, more people will think like you, but I would vote against ethnic or religious street protests if I could.

I agree to disagree. But I'll tell you, the big cities of London and Amsterdam have lost their appeal. I'll go to Edinburgh next time I want a Brit fix, as I want to experience less tension in the world than there currently is, while also going about and enjoying it while I can.
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*Carol*
post 25.Feb.2006, 04:58 PM
Post #20


Amendment! Of course I want Black fraternities to congregate, and Jews to commemorate their dead, and so on...just not anything negative or derogatory about any other group, or is "incidentally" threatening, such as the Orange parades in Northern Ireland. Pride not at the expense of any other group.

YES--I HEAR YOUR ARGUMENTS THAT YOU CAN'T REGULATE FREE SPEECH.
But I think you can. We have plenty of lawyers, politicians and teachers and so on. Let's put them to GOOD use.
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Braderunner Rennuredarb
post 26.Feb.2006, 01:57 PM
Post #21
Location: Not in Sweden
Joined: 24.May.2005

QUOTE (Carol)
YES--I HEAR YOUR ARGUMENTS THAT YOU CAN'T REGULATE FREE SPEECH.
But I think you can. We have plenty of lawyers, politicians and teachers and so on. Let's put them to GOOD use.

The moment you regulate it...its not exactly "free speech" then is it?

Speech that is incitement of direct violence - i.e. kill all the jews, behead those that insult islam, kill whitey - should not be allowed. But saying that Mohammed was a child molester...or that Jesus was a homo (I have actually seen that on a shirt)...should not be regulated.

As for a good use for lawyers and politicians? There are plenty of medicines that need some test subjects...how about it? biggrin.gif
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*Carol*
post 26.Feb.2006, 02:39 PM
Post #22


Jason--How do you feel about the chant, "Hamas, Hamas, All Jews to the gas?" Do the chanters get off because there are no gas chambers? I think that was pretty evil speech. And, yes, I'm not a free speecher. Bad American, huh? Where is my island?!
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Roy E
post 26.Feb.2006, 02:51 PM
Post #23
Joined: 23.Nov.2005

Evil speech? yes.

Illegal speech? no. Never shoud be either.

Personally, I think we're much, much better off if we know what people really think up front and in the open. It adds considerable clarity to the debate.
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Braderunner Rennuredarb
post 27.Feb.2006, 11:01 AM
Post #24
Location: Not in Sweden
Joined: 24.May.2005

QUOTE (Carol)
Jason--How do you feel about the chant, "Hamas, Hamas, All Jews to the gas?" Do the chanters get off because there are no gas chambers? I think that was pretty evil speech. And, yes, I'm not a free speecher. Bad American, huh? Where is my island?!

Well...it is calling for the death of a group of people...and IMHO should not be allowed in a public forum.

Chants that said "Hamas, Hamas, Jews are a bunch of pigs" - while disgusting to me, are not calls for the death of a group of people.
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*Carol*
post 27.Feb.2006, 03:03 PM
Post #25


Nah, too hate-filled for me. And we'll see more of it, though. And worse, if anybody throws back names to the Muslims.
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Mike
post 27.Feb.2006, 05:17 PM
Post #26
Joined: 14.Mar.2005

QUOTE (Aneud)
look at how there are free countries nowadays where there is a law that one can not debate a historical event without being thrown in jail?


Who says those countries are free? I wouldn't.
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