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For FR: What can a pacifists do?

Torontonian
post 4.Mar.2007, 02:43 PM
Post #1
Joined: 7.Jul.2006

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6412453.stm

Iraq's Mandaeans 'face extinction'
By Angus Crawford
BBC News, Damascus

Islamic militants forced Selwan to jump into a bonfire
The Sabian Mandaeans - one of the oldest religious groups in the world - are facing extinction, according to its leaders.
They claim that Islamic extremists in Iraq are trying to wipe them out through forced conversions, rape and murder.

The Mandaeans are pacifists, followers of Adam, Noah and John the Baptist.

They have lived in what is now Iraq since before Islam and Christianity.

More than 80% have been forced to flee the country and now live as refugees in Syria and Jordan.

Even there they do not feel safe - but they say western governments are unwilling to take them in.

Victim voices

There are thought to be fewer than 70,000 of the Sabian Mandaeans spread across the world - only 5,000 are left in Iraq.


Mazen's legs are peppered with machine gun wounds

Nine-year-old Selwan likes watching cartoons and playing football.

But he is too scared to leave his flat. The other children tease him.

He has burns all down the side of his face and on 20% of his body.

He was kidnapped by Islamic militants who forced him to jump into a bonfire - because he is Mandaean.

Now his family lives in a tiny flat in a slum in Damascus.

I meet Luay. He is too scared to be identified and does not want to use his full name.

He was dragged off the street by armed men and forcibly circumcised - a practice not allowed in the Mandaean religion.

He is 19 and is now unlikely ever to find a bride from his own faith.

Worse, he was forcibly converted. That means in the eyes of those same extremists if he now declares himself Mandaean he is apostate.

That makes him a traitor to Islam, who may be murdered. He says he will not be safe in any Muslim country.

'Convert or die'

Then there is Enhar, raped by a gang of masked men in front of her husband - because she would not wear a veil.

Our ethnic minority and out ancient religion will die off

Kanzfra Sattar, Mandaean bishop

Mazen used to be a prosperous jeweller. Now he lives in a cramped flat, with his wife and children. Water drips through the ceiling.

His legs are peppered with machine-gun wounds, he can barely walk.

Shoaki wears a Manchester United hat and shows me the scars where a gang beat and cut him with a knife - he watched his brother murdered in front of him.

Mandaean elders use words like annihilation and genocide - they believe Islamic militants, both Sunni and Shia, offer them two choices - convert or die.

"Some will not consider us people of the book... they see us as unbelievers, as a result our killing is allowed," says Kanzfra Sattar, one of only five Mandaean bishops left worldwide.

'Wait in line'

He believes they are a litmus test for modern Iraq - in a secular state these doctors, engineers and jewellers would thrive.


Kanzfra Sattar is one of only five Mandaean bishops left

In the country as it is without law and in the grip of religious extremism, he fears they will be destroyed.

"We are small in numbers, we ask all the governments of the world to extend a hand of help," Kanzfra Sattar says.

He says he wants the West to accept his people as refugees.

I ask him what will happen if they do not - he replies simply: "Our ethnic minority and our ancient religion will die off."

The UN's refugee agency, the UNHCR, says there may be as many as a million Iraqis who have fled to Syria.

"The numbers that will be resettled are tiny compared to the very large numbers that are here," says Laurens Jolles, the head of a UNHCR team.

He acknowledges that the Mandaeans will just have to "wait in line", with other vulnerable groups.

Roughly two million Iraqis have fled to Syria, Jordan and Turkey. But there are no plans to welcome large numbers to the West.

The US has offered places to 7,000, while Britain says it will consider every case "on its merits".

So the Mandaeans wait in line.

Shoaki puts it more simply: "Here, we live in despair."
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Ellie
post 6.Mar.2007, 12:06 AM
Post #2
Joined: 15.Apr.2006

Torontonian, this is a shocking story, and I am not easily shocked anymore. I've never heard of this group. Too bad they are not even offered the dhimmi option, instead it's only convert or die.

Perhpaps FR will weigh in on this later.
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Torontonian
post 6.Mar.2007, 03:31 AM
Post #3
Joined: 7.Jul.2006

Hi Ellie:

This is shocking - they are doomed. My interest in putting it to FR is her pacifist ideology...not always working...

As for "dhimmi option"...FR should be familiar with this term...in every nation on earth it would be call Apartheid...but not in the Arab world. It would not be politically correct. I always find it amazing that the "left" never talks about that.

The picture below will demonstrate to anyone whoe does not understand what Arab Aprtheid is...

http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/images/saudidisc.jpg
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Torontonian
post 6.Mar.2007, 03:24 PM
Post #4
Joined: 7.Jul.2006

FR?
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Ellie
post 6.Mar.2007, 04:17 PM
Post #5
Joined: 15.Apr.2006

[img]http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/images/saudidisc.jpg[/img]

Dang, now I'll never get to see that ol' meterorite!
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Ellie
post 6.Mar.2007, 05:43 PM
Post #6
Joined: 15.Apr.2006

QUOTE (Torontonian)
FR?


Must have flown the coop. Along with everyone else.
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Word Up
post 6.Mar.2007, 07:12 PM
Post #7
Joined: 18.Nov.2005

How interesting that they were relatively safe and enjoyed a good like under the leadership of Saddam Hussein. But then came the United States to save them from Saddam and give them freedom and democracy.
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Gustav- Fælbönnran
post 6.Mar.2007, 07:16 PM
Post #8
Location: Östersund
Joined: 31.May.2006

I knew sooner or later this would become the fault of the Americans. It's great that nobody has to be accountable for anything anymore.

Nothing I do is my fault anymore, because of the impact of American cultural imperialism upon my native Jamtland. I can't help myself, because I am a poor and ignorant Jamt farmer, and George Bush runs the world.
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FR
post 7.Mar.2007, 01:11 PM
Post #9
Joined: 22.Oct.2005

I'm still around. Been travelling.

A pacifist should leave a country at war. Remember that I also advocate free movement of labor. A pacifist can take his productivity to a better place.
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Mike
post 7.Mar.2007, 01:28 PM
Post #10
Joined: 14.Mar.2005

QUOTE (Word Up)
How interesting that they were relatively safe and enjoyed a good like under the leadership of Saddam Hussein. But then came the United States to save them from Saddam and give them freedom and democracy.


How do you know? Do you think Saddam would publicize this info if it happened under his rule?
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Mike
post 7.Mar.2007, 01:29 PM
Post #11
Joined: 14.Mar.2005

QUOTE (Ellie)
[img]http://www.themiddleeastnow.com/images/saudidisc.jpg[/img]

Dang, now I'll never get to see that ol' meterorite!


Holy crap, is that real?
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Mzungu
post 7.Mar.2007, 01:42 PM
Post #12
Location: Jönköping county
Joined: 29.Aug.2004

Is this real?

Tip of an Iceberg!

http://www.now.org/nnt/summer-2002/gender.html
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VikingHumpingWitch
post 7.Mar.2007, 01:47 PM
Post #13
Location: Gothenburg
Joined: 21.Dec.2005

QUOTE (FR)
A pacifist should leave a country at war. Remember that I also advocate free movement of labor. A pacifist can take his productivity to a better place.


Except as I understand it, it's very hard to leave Iraq. Turkey has closed its borders and the route to Iran is littered with bandits who'll shoot everyone in the car and steal their stuff. (According to an Iraqi bloke my Swede was talking to.)

As for the picture - is it really news to you guys that Mecca is for Muslims only?
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Mike
post 7.Mar.2007, 02:02 PM
Post #14
Joined: 14.Mar.2005

QUOTE (Mzungu)
Is this real?

Tip of an Iceberg!

http://www.now.org/nnt/summer-2002/gender.html


What's your point?
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Gustav- Fælbönnran
post 7.Mar.2007, 02:22 PM
Post #15
Location: Östersund
Joined: 31.May.2006

QUOTE (VikingHumpingWitch)
Except as I understand it, it's very hard to leave Iraq. Turkey has closed its borders and the route to Iran is littered with bandits who'll shoot everyone in the car and steal their stuff. (According to an Iraqi bloke my Swede was talking to.)

As for the picture - is it really news to you guys that Mecca is for Muslims only?


The old section of Uppsala is the holiest spot in the Nordic world.

From now on, people who are not members of the Folk need to keep away from it. Espen and I will be posting signs to direct non-Folkish traffic towards other parts of town.
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