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Anyone closely following the Oscar Pistorius saga?

Talk about selective sensationalist journalism

The Nine
post 21.Feb.2013, 01:42 PM
Post #16
Joined: 10.Aug.2006

Of course there is always a lot of conjecture and hypotheticals in cases like this, prior to any formal trial. Stripping it down to its bare bones, the crux of the case revolves around whether Pistorius purposely shot his girlfriend or mistakenly shot her, thinking she was an intruder.

However, one glaring issue keeps jumping out at me. Now; I am sure everyone has woken up in the night when their partner has got up to use the loo, or make a drink, got up early for work, etc. That is to say, you begin to stir, and notice the empty space in the bed net to you.

Surely, it is normal human nature to assume that any activity, noise, flushing, foot steps, is likely to be your partner using the bathroom, or getting a glass of water, before you assume it is an intruder (?) It seems clear that he was well aware she was in the house. That is to say, she hadn't just returned unexpectedly from a late night out. It appears this incident happened at 3 or 4 am, and prior to this, they had been asleep in bed together. So why would you assume that any noise or moving around was likely to be anyone other than your partner? Secondly, being that your partner was in the house, surely you would make every effort to make sure it was not them in the bathroom, before you started firing a gun through the door.
Ocams Razor. The most obvious is the most likely.
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Elf_Moon
post 21.Feb.2013, 01:44 PM
Post #17
Location: Stockholm
Joined: 5.Sep.2012

Personally I still think that something isn't quite right. And before you say anything Snoopy, my opinion is allowed, I'm allowed to feel that something isn't right though I certainly wouldn't have the ability to pass judgement at this stage, knowing the limited facts that I do.

I'm still concerned that he started shooting without first making sure his girlfriend was safe.

Having come from a dangerous neighborhood myself, I know that my step father would always gather us together first and then explore the source of unusual noises.I remember at one point we were all on alert because a family had been stabbed to death only weeks before and they hadn't found the killer yet O.o

I can think of 5 or 6 incidents where I would be woken in the night by my mother whispering loudly in the dark to check if I were in fact sleeping safely in my room.

Maybe his only crime was not caring enough about her well being, who knows.
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Snoopy!
post 21.Feb.2013, 02:19 PM
Post #18
Location: Skåne
Joined: 14.Aug.2006

Any of you been burgled whilst asleep in your own house ? whilst your other half & son in a cot next to you.
I have & i can assure you I wont be asking questions first if I catch the F#"#%er having another attempt ( & besides this being Sweden & knowing the piss poor sentencing I can live with the punishment that might be administered to me by the courts, if such an event were to ever play out here)

Any of your been burgled in South Africa? until your in such a situation you can all sit there as arm charm Caesars.
In the heat of the moment you can often act before thinking, fear adrenaline is pumping.

We can all say Oscar should have,could have acted differently. The simple fact is Pretoria & Joburg can be very scary places & living in fear or partly is a daily life for many, let alone a guy who sleeps with no legs.

Evidence thus far is a complete cock up from a dodgy investigator ...
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Elf_Moon
post 21.Feb.2013, 02:55 PM
Post #19
Location: Stockholm
Joined: 5.Sep.2012

Honestly, I think that most people would consider loved ones first.

I DO come from a bad neighborhood, two boys I knew died from gunshot wounds at point blank range in their own homes (after I'd moved away but still...)

My house HAS been burgled... Oddly they only stole the bikes in the hallway and my mother and father would always think first about their families and I can tell you, my step father was a pumped up so and so who was quick to anger and loved to use his fists (on anyone, including me) and he always made sure to gather us together before coming to conclusions.

Once I was climbing through the bathroom window myself at 2am (don't ask) and he didn't think to murder me for it nor did he gather his hunting rifles (though I doubt they would do much harm,) instead opting for a hammer. But as you say, perhaps Oscar felt at a disadvantage...
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The Nine
post 21.Feb.2013, 03:02 PM
Post #20
Joined: 10.Aug.2006

QUOTE (Snoopy! @ 21.Feb.2013, 03:19 PM) *
Any of you been burgled whilst asleep in your own house ? whilst your other half & son in a cot next to you. I have & i can assure you I wont be asking questions first ... (show full quote)

I think you are totally missing the point, and leading the conversation into exactly the kind of waters you are complaining about in the media reporting.

Of course, if you heard strange noises in your house, and your partner and young child are there, of course you are very likely to act to protect and defend them before anything else. However, surely def-con one, would be to make sure it wasn't one of your loved ones making the noise before you start discharging a fire arm into the dark.

That was my whole point. If you know your child and partner are in the house with you, then your reaction would be to make sure they were safe before you start taking evasive action against any assumed invader.

It is also relevant to point out that, although S/A can certainly be a dangerous place, Pitorius didn't live in bloody Seweto. He lives in a a wealthy and gated estate with security guards.

Look at it another way; If you got up in the night to investigate a noise, and your partner (who was laid next to you in bed an hour earlier) was no where to be seen, wouldn't your first thought be to make sure it wasn't your partner who was making the noise.?
Your opening words make it clear that your first thoughts would be for the protection of your loved ones, so don't you think that the first action in doing that would be to call out and make sure that you were not about to accidentally shoot them dead?. It's simple. Reeva! Is that you in the bathroom?'
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SimonDMontfort
post 21.Feb.2013, 03:56 PM
Post #21
Location: Stockholm county
Joined: 8.Feb.2011

The court proceedings are already a farce – and the trial hasn't even started yet: whats being decided (so far) is only whether to remand Pistorius in custody or grant him bail.

The detective leading the investigation is apparently under investigation himself on several counts of attempted murder - after getting drunk and shooting at a taxi. He stated that one of his witnesses heard two people arguing - despite her being 600m away from the house.

Pistorius's account is a joke but unfortunately so has been the SA law enforcement here. Does seem to me that if you start shooting, you need to know what/who you're shooting at. Looks to me as though Oscar Pistorius should be remanded in custody - unless there are any other 'suspects' the police can find
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Elf_Moon
post 21.Feb.2013, 04:29 PM
Post #22
Location: Stockholm
Joined: 5.Sep.2012

Yes, I'm rather disappointed with the proceedings. I feel that if a crime has indeed been committed (on the scale of cold blooded murder,) it is possible that a murderer could be let loose because of it :/

How would this possibly work out? If he is found not to be guilty of murder will he be let free or does the charge simply fall to a lesser one?
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The Nine
post 21.Feb.2013, 07:00 PM
Post #23
Joined: 10.Aug.2006

I've just read todays proceedings and it gets even more unbelievable. Reeva`Steenkamps over night bag and personal stuff was by the bed. Once again, this suggests that she hadn't simply turned up unannounced at 3.am and somehow been mistaken for an intruder. Pistorius says he woke up and went to the open French windows of the bedroom, that open on to a balcony, in order to bring in an electric fan that was outside on the balcony. He stated that he had been sleeping with the windows open.
He then stated that he heard a noise coming from the en-suite bathroom and headed in there with a gun. Having noticed a bathroom window open and the toilet door closed, he says he thought someone had climbed in through the window and was hiding in the toilet, so opened fire.

The floor plan of his home clearly shows that the bathroom/toilet are en-suite and, apart from the second story window, the bathroom is only accessible from the bedroom. Now, being that he was fully aware of his girlfriends presence in the house, and that she had not just dropped by at 3.am to surprise him, who the heck did he expect to be in his en-suite bathroom?

It just does not add up that Oskar Pistorius did not, for once moment, consider that the person in the toilet was likely to be the woman whom he had spent the evening with, and who had latterly climbed out of his bed.
It is summer in S/A right now, and the fact that he says he was sleeping with the French windows open, and went outside to bring in an electric fan, would suggest it was a warn night. Whether he had opened the bathroom window and forgotten, or she had opened it when she went in there, it just does not add up that he would not have called out to check it was not his girlfriend in the toilet. If you see the crime scene photos the toilet door is like those in most public toilets. It has a 10 / 12 cm gap at the bottom. It is just a flat board, not some thick, heavy duty fitting. Not difficult to see under, or communicate with someone through it

I think a telling issue is that, even though this was 3.am and her personal belongings and over night bag were next to her side of Pistorius's bed, Reeva Steenkamp was dressed when she was shot. Nor did the bullet wounds suggest she had been using the toilet when she was shot. However the post mortem showed her bladder was empty, so had not long since used the loo. How many burglars break in to your house and then flush the toilet?

The fact that she had bothered to get dressed at 3.am, suggests she was intending to go somewhere. Oskar Pistorius's first phone call was to the building security, endorsing what I said earlier; that a millionaire athlete in`S/A is likely to have security alarm system straight out of Mission Impossible. It is a gated estate with security patrols, and anyone who is so security concious as to keep fire arms by their bed, is not going to have forgotten to install an alarm system, or have motion senser lights.

I just don't buy it. Even with all that security, if you genuinely thought you might have an intruder on the premises, and your girlfriend was somewhere about the place, you would at least be calling out to them before you started loosing off rounds. I just don't think that someone who has achieved what he has achieved, in the face of the obstacles life gave him, is quite that dumb.
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Gamla Hälsingebock
post 21.Feb.2013, 07:27 PM
Post #24
Joined: 21.Dec.2006

Nobody as a responsible gun owner will shoot at something he/she cannot see or identify.

He knew she was in the house and if he did not know where she was he should not have fired his gun.

The bladder contents are emptied upon death, so we don't know when/how they were expelled.

He killed her...by mistake? Or not?...Time will tell.
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byke
post 21.Feb.2013, 07:30 PM
Post #25
Location: Europe
Joined: 28.Oct.2008

Funnily enough, Nike pulled their advertising for Oscar ...
 
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SimonDMontfort
post 22.Feb.2013, 03:39 PM
Post #26
Location: Stockholm county
Joined: 8.Feb.2011

News just out - Oscar Pistorius has been granted bail

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21548865

Must admit - I wonder about the kind of society that even considers a suspect eligible for bail, when he is accused of killing someone by shooting them four times, but there you go...

The magistrate mentioned that SA's prisons are very overcrowded, and discussed Pistorius' 'propensity for violence' wink.gif

It may well be that OP is genuinely overcome with remorse, in which case might he not be better off in some kind of secure unit, with people making sure he doesn't commit suicide...?

Just a thought
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Snoopy!
post 22.Feb.2013, 04:22 PM
Post #27
Location: Skåne
Joined: 14.Aug.2006

QUOTE
Must admit - I wonder about the kind of society that even considers a suspect eligible for bail, when he is accused of killing someone by shooting them four times, but there you go...


A society where by the law is written to give a fare case for the "accuse" & until otherwise proven guilty.
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The Nine
post 22.Feb.2013, 05:44 PM
Post #28
Joined: 10.Aug.2006

Correct. OP has denied murder and has yet to be tried. Therefore he is technically an innocent man. Bail is based on whether someone is likely to run away, or pose a danger to the public in the period before the case comes to court.`As the judge pointed out, he is so well known and with metal legs, his chances of disappearing are practically nil, and with no criminal record, no grounds for thinking he would commit a further crime on bail.
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SimonDMontfort
post 22.Feb.2013, 07:07 PM
Post #29
Location: Stockholm county
Joined: 8.Feb.2011

I’m not disputing that OP hasn’t been found guilty of anything (yet).

It seems (to me) that it’s a strange legal system when you can a) shoot people, in your bathroom through a locked door without asking "who's there" or checking if your partner has gone to the toilet and cool.gif after shooting a person four times and killing them, you say "I thought it was a burglar"

After all that, your story is described as plausible and you are granted bail.

I 'd say this is an offence of serious violence and just hope the criminal case is more reassuring than this bail hearing was.
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philios33
post 22.Feb.2013, 10:29 PM
Post #30
Location: Gothenburg
Joined: 24.Sep.2012

At the moment it's sounding like something out of a courtroom drama film.

Just wanna agree about the bbc being crap. They first stated that OP shot his girlfriend 4 times in the head through the door. (cough)wallhack(cough). Turns out he shot 4 bullets, 3 of them hit, 1 in the head.

I haven't followed the case with a toothpick but with all the evidence that's come out so far, I really can't see how they can convict him. The evidence against him is all circumstantial. What's worse is the joke of a prosecution. Until OP's version of events can be proven 100% wrong with other evidence yet to surface, how can you fault OP's story. If there is a chance (even 0.001%) that OP is telling the truth, it would be a grave injustice to sentence him as a murderer.

I think we can all agree that he is either:

1. A very clever murderer who wanted to get rid of his gf and get away with it(guilty)
2. A scared idiot with a gun who had a moment of madness (innocent)

Hopefully he'll get at least 4 or 5 years even if it's just to think about how stupid he was. Anyone have a clue about sentences in SA (either way)?
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