Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

The Local _ Life in Sweden _ Is Sweden an Apartheid State?

Posted by: krigeren 28.Feb.2010, 07:40 PM

Having lived in Scandinavia for a total of 9 years, and having worked in all three countries. I will say that xenophobia and downright racism exists in all three countries and is alive and well in Norway, Denmark, and Sweden.

Sweden in particular has an especially dark form of racism which is primarily about keeping appearances however, beneath a thin veneer of apparent tolerance racism and discrimination runs deep and systematic here.

Therefore I beleive Sweden is an Apartheid State while not de facto, on a daily basis it has similar consequences to minorities and immigrants.

The points I am making are painfully obvious when we look at the board of directors of top companies, high ranking power within government, and even when we look at the middle management in this country.

I need to better understand the laws here and what legal recourse those who are facing discrimination have. Any tips and resources will be helpful.

I beleive all immigrants and minorities here in Sweden need to rally together to fight for their share of the power in this country. Until we have seats at every level of government, every level of business, we will not truly be able to set our own course in this country with the same certainty of a native and ethnic Swede. '

I do not want to see a quota system here but the doors are so closed for so many foreigners that it is difficult to see what other options there are here.

You may not agree with me, that is fine, dont waste my time with a big flame war. However, if you have something to contribute then please do so and its appreciated.

Posted by: Furu 28.Feb.2010, 07:59 PM

So

1. We are allowed in the country
2. Have access to free health care
3. Have access to free education at University
4. Children are allowed free schooling
5. Get subsidized child care
6. Allowed free access to SFI
7. Subsidized Dental care
8. Cap on Prescription Drugs

Not able to find employment because of lack of language skills makes the country Racist against foreigners.

Are you aware that Sweden took more refugees than USA during Iraq war, now they have to let those refugees become Member of Parliament and we will consider that as equality.

Posted by: krigeren 28.Feb.2010, 08:08 PM

QUOTE (Furu @ 28.Feb.2010, 07:59 PM) *
So

1. We are allowed in the country
2. Have access to free health care
3. Have access to free education at University
4. Children are allowed free schooling
5. Get subsidized child care
6. Allowed free access to SFI

Not able to find employment because of lack of language skills makes the country Racist against foreigners.

Are you aware that Sweden took more refugees than USA during Iraq war, now they have to let those refugees become Member of Parliament and we will consider that as equality.


First its important to point out that as you stated and wrongly inferred regarding my post "Not able to find employment because of lack of language skills makes the country Racist against foreigners." that is only the tip of the iceberg and goes much deeper than that. Most pointedly, we, and I mean minorities and immigrants do not share equal power in this country.

Second. The six points you raise are afforded to everyone here. However, equality goes far beyond those 6 points. Equality extends to equal shares of police officers, fire fighters, judges, and politicians being minorities and immigrants. It means an equal share of minorities and immigrants serving on boards within large corporate and public organizations.

A right delayed is a right denied and under that pretext Sweden if full of exactly that form of discrimination.

Like I said before I was not interested in starting a flame war, you apparently are, good for you. I am sure there are other threads you can actually contribute to...go there.

Posted by: Bender B Rodriquez 28.Feb.2010, 08:12 PM

I agree that Sweden is an extremely segregated country, however, to say that it is due to racism is an oversimplification.
Sweden is simply not a meritocracy. Of course merit and qualifications count, but unless you have the right connections you will never be able to compete truly. Combine this with the Swedish conformity and fear of change and you get a segregated society.
It is not discrimination based on skin colour or nationality; it is discrimination based on who you went to school with, which area you grew up, which university you attended, etc. It is a matter of class.

Posted by: Furu 28.Feb.2010, 08:13 PM

QUOTE (krigeren @ 28.Feb.2010, 08:08 PM) *
First its important to point out that as you stated and wrongly inferred regarding my post "Not able to find employment because of lack of language skills makes the country Racist against foreigners." that is only the tip of the iceberg and goes much deeper than that. Most pointedly, we, and I mean minorities and immigrants do not share equal power in this country.

Second. The six points you raise are afforded to everyone here. However, equality goes far beyond those 6 points. Equality extends to equal shares of police officers, fire fighters, judges, and politicians being minorities and immigrants. It means an equal share of minorities and immigrants serving on boards within large corporate and public organizations.

A right delayed is a right denied and under that pretext Sweden if full of exactly that form of discrimination.

Like I said before I was not interested in starting a flame war, you apparently are, good for you. I am sure there are other threads you can actually contribute to...go there.


Your posts; present and past state you want the respondents to agree to your foundational theory which is infact based on non rational comments.

Posted by: mc87 28.Feb.2010, 08:30 PM

You have my attention. I am curious on a couple of points:-


Posted by: Tall swede 28.Feb.2010, 08:43 PM

To be a chairman in large corporations and be a member of parliment you need a great education (masters degree in your field, especially if you are in corporations. In the riksdag you only have to be an brown nosed asshole)
You also need a great understanding of swedish, swedish culture (thats because you have to interact with sweden. You cannot argue that this is discrimination) swedish laws and regulations to be successful. This usually requires a long time spent i sweden. To be born in this country is of course a head start when it comes to understand a society. This is also something you cant argue that employers and voters should disregard.

Immigrants usually come here later when they are older. This means that they need to learn a new language and a new culture. Its hard to reach the skill of a born and bred swede if they have a 25 year head start.

To reach the important positions you need relevant experience of a lifetime to compete. And what could be more relevant than to have lived your entire life here? Diffrent countries have diffrent cultures. This is a fact. Live with it.

Posted by: kaze 28.Feb.2010, 08:57 PM

Why should we have equal rights? We're foreigners, not Swedes. No country in the world gives equal rights to foreigners. The EU is fixing this to a large degree but still, its only right and just that the country whose job it is to look after their people looks after their people first and foremost.
To say Sweden has apartheid is insulting to those who actually lived under such systems.

Posted by: krigeren 28.Feb.2010, 08:58 PM

QUOTE (Tall swede @ 28.Feb.2010, 08:43 PM) *
This is a fact. Live with it.

Fact is only what we accept to be true. I nor many other immigrants are willing to accept it. Its us versus people like you. You will lose in the long run.

Posted by: Tall swede 28.Feb.2010, 09:09 PM

Why do you come here of you expect (and want!) a war?
And what right do you have to drag sweden and swedes in to your war, when they let you come here?
And what will i lose? My country? My culture? My rights? If any of these, why do you want to take if from me?

Posted by: mc87 28.Feb.2010, 09:16 PM

QUOTE (Tall swede @ 28.Feb.2010, 09:09 PM) *
Why do you come here of you expect (and want!) a war?

what war?

Posted by: Tall swede 28.Feb.2010, 09:24 PM

"Its us versus people like you. You will lose in the long run."
It may not be a declaration of war, but it is not a peace offer...

Posted by: Furu 28.Feb.2010, 09:28 PM

I think Sweden is more than generous in just providing free University education regardless of the persons origin.

Posted by: Furu 28.Feb.2010, 09:32 PM

QUOTE (kaze @ 28.Feb.2010, 08:57 PM) *
Why should we have equal rights? We're foreigners, not Swedes. No country in the world gives equal rights to foreigners. The EU is fixing this to a large degree but still, its only right and just that the country whose job it is to look after their people looks after their people first and foremost.
To say Sweden has apartheid is insulting to those who actually lived under such systems.

This applies to any country in the world. The foreigner must become a part of the system rather trying to change the system.

Posted by: mc87 28.Feb.2010, 09:41 PM

QUOTE (Furu @ 28.Feb.2010, 09:32 PM) *
The foreigner must become a part of the system rather trying to change the system.


I understand your point. However at what stage has the poster argued that the "immigrants" need to change the system? I intepret the post to mean that immigrants ought to gain more power in order to have more opportunities to integrate, and become apart of Swedish society (so to speak)...

Posted by: Furu 28.Feb.2010, 09:47 PM

So is it justified to compare Sweden to an Apartheid State because when that system was in place most passports from non developed countries were invalid to travel to South Africa.

Posted by: mc87 28.Feb.2010, 09:50 PM

No!!

Posted by: krigeren 28.Feb.2010, 09:55 PM

QUOTE (mc87 @ 28.Feb.2010, 08:30 PM) *
You have my attention. I am curious on a couple of points:-
  • How do you define equality? It appears as if you consider it to be, or include, affirmative action?
  • What is your underlying solution? Is it the formation of a political party?

Equality without equity is meaningless. Equity equals equality, equity, a stake in determining your own future. When minorities and immigrants have established the same networks that are as firmly entrenched as the Swedish networks on a relative per capita basis, then a measure of equality is achieved.

The solution is primarily two fold.

To create organizations that work to bring immigrants together. To unite immigrants and Swedes under the same framework of common interests.

Sweden is dependent upon immigrants as a resource. There exists a large pension gap here. Swedes benefit from immigrant labor, from new ideas, and the immigrants benefit by being given opportunity.

Secondly, yes, of course immigrants must become actively political. There needs to be a great deal of passive resistance as MLK did in America. Because quite frankly Sweden has invisible barriers of apartheid in my opinion.

Overall by a moderate group of immigrants banding together to work in partnership with the society we can acheive a lot. Rather than polarizing the issues.

Tall Swede, it was not at all a deceleration of war. However, as long as people exist who tell others, "just accept it you can't do anything about it" than we all, not just me as an immigrant, but Swedes as well, have to fight against it. It is possible to change the world, a small determined band of people can do it..Ghandi said it himself.

Posted by: krigeren 28.Feb.2010, 09:58 PM

QUOTE (mc87 @ 28.Feb.2010, 09:41 PM) *
I understand your point. However at what stage has the poster argued that the "immigrants" need to change the system? I intepret the post to mean that immigrants ought to gain more power in order to have more opportunities to integrate, and become apart of Swedish society (so to speak)...


Whenever you tell someone they "must" do something. You are restricting their freedom. Their freedom to be themselves. My freedom ends at the tip of another man's nose.

Immigrants have tried to "integrate" for a long time in Sweden. It does not work for the majority of immigrants, many end up living outside of the society or within their own sub culture. This is unhealthy for the society overall...by empowering immigrants and minorities, giving them a voice and the means to shape their own destiny...that is the road to equality. Nothing less.

Posted by: Tall swede 28.Feb.2010, 10:02 PM

My statement that it is a fact was that diffrent countries have diffrent cultures, and it will always be a good thing with experience from the culture you live in. For this to change, you have to erase all cultures and make them one large one so that no one could get ahead from being born in the culture that they then stay in. It is my opinion that this is not something to strive for.

Posted by: krigeren 28.Feb.2010, 10:10 PM

Cultures continually change and evolve. The culture of Sweden in 40 years from now will look little like the culture of day, then again, the culture of Sweden 40 years ago looks little like the Sweden of today.

20% of Sweden's population is either from another country or the children of two immigrants.

This demographic is a shift. Could immigrants hope to acheive so much as will be possible for them in the next decade in terms of gaining political and thereby, economic power in Denmark or Norway...no way..those populations are only about 7% in each country.

Here in Sweden immigrants have a massive opportunity to be proactive, to bring Swedes and immigrants closer together for the benefit of each, and to work to change the stereotype of immigrants here. Sweden could, and many very well have to, become a world leader is "immigrant productivity and egalitarianism" because if we don't change our course now in this country we will only become further polarized and the slope will only become an increasingly slippery slope.

-Two Thirds of immigrants who arrive here still cannot find jobs after two years. That number is ridiculous, its something to be ashamed of. It hurts the Swedish economy overall and is reduces the morale of the immigrant.

-I visit Swedish companies all of the time. It is very common to see blue collar workers from just about anywhere. However, white collar workers, its generally very Swedish, barring either international companies. This is not some myth, there is a clear division in this society between those with power, primarily indigenous Swedes, and minorities/immigrants. Those with the power are purposely maintaining that power to keep minorities and immigrants out. I and many other immigrants and minorities have seen it so many times here its like its systematized.

Posted by: senthil v 28.Feb.2010, 10:31 PM

Ive been in Sweden for the past 5 months or so, a new comer. I see a lot of African immigrants or refugees on the streets, but i didn't see them work any whereeeeeee.. like shops, univ's, banks, drivers, maintenance crews or whatever. Maybe a few people could be happy to live with the welfare money but its hardly enough isndt? ,,,,, something very strange here and by the way they do speak Swedish.

Posted by: dobermann 28.Feb.2010, 10:38 PM

Yes yes...Everyone can talk about pink dreams of emigrant, equality and other bullshit. Everyone in Sweden understand, that emigrants are needed here just to work low-end jobs for lower price, that is the true. Not a single country in the world do not want that emigrants could have more power more rights and etc.

Posted by: Furu 28.Feb.2010, 10:38 PM

QUOTE (senthil v @ 28.Feb.2010, 10:31 PM) *
Ive been in Sweden for the past 5 months or so, a new comer. I see a lot of African immigrants or refugees on the streets, but i didn't see them work any whereeeeeee.. like shops, univ's, banks, drivers, maintenance crews or whatever. Maybe a few people could be happy to live with the welfare money but its hardly enough isndt? ,,,,, something very strange here and by the way they do speak Swedish.


I would also like to know how much is a welfare payment in Sweden. It must be high that is why they do not leave SFI because it was in the news few months back that refugees get paid to attend SFI.

Posted by: krigeren 28.Feb.2010, 10:47 PM

QUOTE (dobermann @ 28.Feb.2010, 10:38 PM) *
Yes yes...Everyone can talk about pink dreams of emigrant, equality and other bullshit. Everyone in Sweden understand, that emigrants are needed here just to work low-end jobs for lower price, that is the true. Not a single country in the world do not want that emigrants could have more power more rights and etc.


If you are an immigrant in Sweden and take that stance than you are letting yourself be a victim. I am sure not many countries in the world want immigrants to have more power, but its not their decision, gaining power and influence is up to the immigrants themselves..determined and organized...they cannot be stopped.

Posted by: Schomberg 28.Feb.2010, 10:48 PM

QUOTE (Tall swede @ 28.Feb.2010, 10:02 PM) *
My statement that it is a fact was that diffrent countries have diffrent cultures, and it will always be a good thing with experience from the culture you live in. For this to change, you have to erase all cultures and make them one large one so that no one could get ahead from being born in the culture that they then stay in. It is my opinion that this is not something to strive for.



Thats whats happening though. Swedes, from what I've experienced, are embarrassed by the traditional Swedish identity. Young Swedes especially. They take their cues from a plastic version of London or New York or L.A. Sweden is akward to them. There is a blending in process, a kind of blanket culture that is a fucked up mix of the worst of anglo-americano. Neither properly British or American but a bastardised version that people, especially in the west can easy assimilate and identity with thanks to TV.

Posted by: senthil v 28.Feb.2010, 10:50 PM

QUOTE (Furu @ 28.Feb.2010, 10:38 PM) *
I would also like to know how much is a welfare payment in Sweden. It must be high that is why they do not leave SFI because it was in the news few months back that refugees get paid to attend SFI.


I was not talking about the size of the welfare payments,,, is it like they are all lazy and happy abt living in welfare? (which i doubt) or is it really really really difficult to find a job here as a newcomer with no frds inside the influence circles.

Posted by: senthil v 28.Feb.2010, 10:52 PM

QUOTE (Schomberg @ 28.Feb.2010, 10:48 PM) *
Thats whats happening though. Swedes, from what I've experienced, are embarrassed by the traditional Swedish identity. Young Swedes especially. They take their cues from a plastic version of London or New York or L.A. Sweden is akward to them. There is a blending in process, a kind of blanket culture that is a fucked up mix of the worst of anglo-americano. Neither properly British or American but a bastardised version that people, especially in the west can easy assimilate and identity with thanks to TV.


quite an observation,,,, by the way its happening to many countries.

Posted by: Schomberg 28.Feb.2010, 10:52 PM

QUOTE (krigeren @ 28.Feb.2010, 10:47 PM) *
If you are an immigrant in Sweden and take that stance than you are letting yourself be a victim. I am sure not many countries in the world want immigrants to have more power, but its not their decision, gaining power and influence is up to the immigrants themselves..determined and organized...they cannot be stopped.



the thing is, we're all immigrants who usually don't speak very good swedish. That hampers your ability to succeed. Just like all those poles at home who can't speak english properly. They're the ones serving our drinks and cleaning our drains. theres nothing sinister about it. it's just the obvious outcome of the situation we're in. I mean, I have almost NOTHING to do with swedish society. I'm British, I speak english, I like my Queen, I like my anthem, I like our culture and identity. Most of my mates are British (ethnically speaking, not just poltiically - auzzies, kiwis, irish, scots, canadians etc). I do't relate to swedish society, I do my best to avoid speaking swedish. I don't have many swedish friends. I don't like swedish sports, I dont like swedish tv, I don't like swedish food...needless to say I'm not raking in the cash, But it's my doing. Sweden didn't make me a factory worker. I did it. If I got involved and learnt the language things might be different...

Posted by: Schomberg 28.Feb.2010, 10:53 PM

QUOTE (senthil v @ 28.Feb.2010, 10:52 PM) *
quite an observation,,,, by the way its happening to many countries.



absolutely.

Posted by: krigeren 28.Feb.2010, 10:59 PM

QUOTE (Schomberg @ 28.Feb.2010, 10:52 PM) *
the thing is, we're all immigrants who usually don't speak very good swedish. That hampers your ability to succeed. Just like all those poles at home who can't speak english properly. They're the ones serving our drinks and cleaning our drains. theres nothing sinister about it. it's just the obvious outcome of the situation we're in. I mean, I have almost NOTHING to do with swedish society. I'm British, I speak english, I like my Queen, I like my anthem, I like our culture and identity. Most of my mates are British (ethnically speaking, not just poltiically - auzzies, kiwis, irish, scots, canadians etc). I do't relate to swedish society, I do my best to avoid speaking swedish. I don't have many swedish friends. I don't like swedish sports, I dont like swedish tv, I don't like swedish food...needless to say I'm not raking in the cash, But it's my doing. Sweden didn't make me a factory worker. I did it. If I got involved and learnt the language things might be different...


It would be great if you would get involved and learn the language. If you do, you will still hit ceilings here that really should not exist. There harmful to the immigrant but also to the society overall. I sort of see it that you are in it for yourself and not so interested in the solidarity part of it..thats fine, would not expect everyone to jump on the band wagon.

Posted by: Schomberg 28.Feb.2010, 11:07 PM

Sweden doesn't owe us anything though. A guy once said to me - why should I hire an immigrant with only ok swedish and perfect english when I can hire a swede with perfect swedish and pretty good english. made a lot of sense to me. The other side of this though is, why not go out and start your own business? Theres three types of British immigrants t sweden. The first lot are the lucky ones, the ones that were brought over to work in a company. They're set from the get go. The second are the ones who started they're own businesses and did well, doing their own thing. And the third are basically the ones like me, the majority, who didn't intergate at all into swedish society and are usually doing low skilled jobs. service industry, manual labour etc . we're all in it for ourselves mate. No ones going to do shit for you. you need to do it yourself. Now, if you're taking about blacks and arabs, then I think you may have a point. But as regards us. I just don't see it.

interesting discussion though...

Posted by: krigeren 28.Feb.2010, 11:14 PM

Regardless whether Sweden owes us anything or not it is not the point. It is about immigrants banding together, organizing, and working for positive change. Positive change is good for the society overall, i.e., the tax base.

To say that Sweden owes an immigrant anything as an end point to immigrants self actualizing their own life's is simply self destructive. Its up to us to seize our part of the pie here...we will go further doing it collectively.

I see blacks and arabs as you put it, as minorities and many whom are immigrants. I often find that immigrants from third or second world nations are more motivated and better workers in blue collar jobs than people from 1st world countries, who have grown up relatively pampered.

I think its a tough pill for many 1st world immigrants to swallow their outlook here, I mean from an employer standpoint (I say this as a immigrant who employs people), that, yes, the majority of time I rather hire people from the 3rd world because they have more of a fight in them than Brits, Americans, etc...Generally speaking.

I run my own business. I am not British.

Posted by: Schomberg 28.Feb.2010, 11:26 PM

QUOTE (krigeren @ 28.Feb.2010, 11:14 PM) *
Regardless whether Sweden owes us anything or not it is not the point. It is about immigrants banding together, organizing, and working for positive change. Positive change is good for the society overall, i.e., the tax base.

To say that Sweden owes an immigrant anything as an end point to immigrants self actualizing their own life's is simply self destructive. Its up to us to seize our part of the pie here...we will go further doing it collectively.


what postive change do you want? I'm only speaking from my experience and the change would need to be made tot he attitude of the immigrants themselves. Personally, I'm not interested in swedish society, much to my missus annoyance and I suspect that that is the problem you'll run into with many of the 1st world immigrants, especially those of British ethnicity - English, Scots, Irish, Auzzies etc...


QUOTE (krigeren @ 28.Feb.2010, 11:14 PM) *
I see blacks and arabs as you put it, as minorities and many whom are immigrants. I often find that immigrants from third or second world nations are more motivated and better workers in blue collar jobs than people from 1st world countries, who have grown up relatively pampered.

I agree. I just meant that when it comes to blacks and arabs, I do see them having a problem with discrimination in Sweden.

Posted by: skane refugee 28.Feb.2010, 11:31 PM

QUOTE (Bender B Rodriquez @ 28.Feb.2010, 08:12 PM) *
I agree that Sweden is an extremely segregated country, however, to say that it is due to racism is an oversimplification.
Sweden is simply not a meritocracy. Of course merit and qualifications count, but unless you have the right connections you will never be able to compete truly. Combine this with the Swedish conformity and fear of change and you get a segregated society.
It is not discrimination based on skin colour or nationality; it is discrimination based on who you went to school with, which area you grew up, which university you attended, etc. It is a matter of class.

Great post Bender

I have a couple of friends from ethnic/immigrant backgrounds who have succeeded spectacularly in Sweden, but they both arrived pre-high school age and accumulated the necessary contacts and friends at the right local schools and universities etc together with achieving an excellent degree of language and cultural familiarity before they approached the job market

Therefore I wouldn't agree that there's some sort of de facto apartheid excluding non-ethnic Swedes from the best jobs based on their skin colour, religion, nationality etc that should be addressed by quotas etc

Rather, IMHO, adult migrants to Sweden need to be aware that because the Swedish job market is not primarily driven by meritocratic considerations, and because consensus and conformity are so highly prized, they somehow need to accumulate/replicate the contact network and language/cultural understanding that they would have naturally acquired had they migrated as school kids or otherwise grown up in Sweden

IMHO, it is also extremely important for Swedish 'other halves' who drag 'love migrants' to Sweden to recognise and acknowledge these key barriers to meaningful employment here, and to provide all assistance in terms of introductions to contact networks etc, ideally before any move here

Good luck to one and all!

Posted by: superturbo 28.Feb.2010, 11:32 PM

QUOTE (krigeren @ 28.Feb.2010, 11:10 PM) *

-Two Thirds of immigrants who arrive here still cannot find jobs after two years. That number is ridiculous, its something to be ashamed of. It hurts the Swedish economy overall and is reduces the morale of the immigrant.

And why do you think it's like this? Is it because everyone's a racist or simply because there are not enough work availible? How can someone that barely can speak any Swedish at all expect to get a job when there are very few jobs availible?

Many of the immigrants that come here have only basic education (or sometimes not even that) and adding to that they are not very good in Swedish of course makes them less attractive to hire.

QUOTE (krigeren @ 28.Feb.2010, 11:10 PM) *
-I visit Swedish companies all of the time. It is very common to see blue collar workers from just about anywhere. However, white collar workers, its generally very Swedish, barring either international companies. This is not some myth, there is a clear division in this society between those with power, primarily indigenous Swedes, and minorities/immigrants. Those with the power are purposely maintaining that power to keep minorities and immigrants out. I and many other immigrants and minorities have seen it so many times here its like its systematized.

It's true that it's less common with foreign collar workers, but again, you can generally forget getting a job like that unless you are skilled in Swedish. I've seen several foreign white collar workers here in Sweden, but what differs them from most other immigrants here is that they're usually very good at Swedish. It might sound unfair to you but compare that to many other countries in which they don't even hire foreigners or have them working under significantly worse conditions than a national citizen, and you'll realise that Sweden is not all too bad after all.

Posted by: krigeren 28.Feb.2010, 11:36 PM

QUOTE (Schomberg @ 28.Feb.2010, 11:26 PM) *
what postive change do you want? I'm only speaking from my experience and the change would need to be made tot he attitude of the immigrants themselves. Personally, I'm not interested in swedish society, much to my missus annoyance and I suspect that that is the problem you'll run into with many of the 1st world immigrants, especially those of British ethnicity - English, Scots, Irish, Auzzies etc...


Primarily I want to see immigrants and minorities gaining positions of power within the society based upon their merit. I want to see companies embrace that concept because its good for their bottom line. If that does not work then affirmative action would have to take place and that would be unfortunate.

Call it a GNI index for immigrants and minorities. The current concept of social democracy here is stale and the system shows so much hypocrisy, particularly in regards to immigrants and minorities that if Sweden is to evolve, more forward, progress..and wants to maintain the social democracy...its needs to redefine it..come up with a social democracy 2.0 that is inclusive of everyone in this society.

Underneath that framework its about getting immigrants directed to jobs that create more jobs...export oriented jobs..don't offer some kommun job to an immigrant when a local could do it better..

We need a broad and deep scale work program here with business leaders, not government leaders, who are tasked with immigrants work here..those leaders should be primarily immigrants themselves and all doors should be opened to them to make it happen. If these investments are not made then we continue down the same old garden path..a path that does not work for most immigrants and is not healthy for the system here either.

Personally, I am not afraid of thinking big and what the possibilities are...immigrants/minorities and Swedes alike have to think big about it as well..

Posted by: krigeren 28.Feb.2010, 11:52 PM

QUOTE (superturbo @ 28.Feb.2010, 11:32 PM) *
And why do you think it's like this? Is it because everyone's a racist or simply because there are not enough work availible? How can someone that barely can speak any Swedish at all expect to get a job when there are very few jobs availible?

Many of the immigrants that come here have only basic education (or sometimes not even that) and adding to that they are not very good in Swedish of course makes them less attractive to hire.

There is a great deal of untruth is what you are saying. I work with companies to place people based on their talents OTHER than Swedish.

In the marketplace there exists a BIG gap between what SFI prepares foreigners for and what employers require in terms of Swedish. Therefore, its about changing Swedish employers perception that Swedish is a must...otherwise 10's of thousands of immigrants will continue to sit out of work. Employers often need the skills these people have. Within a few months on the job most of the immigrants Swedish is "passable"..that's where they learn the language not in some class with a bunch of other immigrants.

Secondly...about 1/3rd of all immigrants including refugees have some sort of higher form of education..at least the ones I end up interviewing, including the aforementioned 1/3rd, about 2/3'rds have some sort of skill or work experience that is valuable. The myth that immigrants overall are uneducated or have poor skills is ridiculous.

QUOTE (superturbo @ 28.Feb.2010, 11:32 PM) *
It's true that it's less common with foreign white collar workers, but again, you can generally forget getting a job like that unless you are skilled in Swedish. I've seen several foreign white collar workers here in Sweden, but what differs them from most other immigrants here is that they're usually very good at Swedish. It might sound unfair to you but compare that to many other countries in which they don't even hire foreigners or have them working under significantly worse conditions than a national citizen, and you'll realise that Sweden is not all too bad after all.

Sweden is a democracy. The constitution clearly bars against discrimination. People are being discriminated against in the job market. Thats wrong...The US realized this same argument 50 years ago...during those first 30 years changes started to happen..and over the next 20 of those 50 years it came to be..and equality may not be universal in America, but it was achieved at some level..the pinnacle being Obama. Sweden must go through this same change if it believes it will end up having a place in the world as a nation of morality and ethics. It needs to do the right thing.

Posted by: nic_tester 1.Mar.2010, 12:48 AM

Methinks krigaren speaks in jest. Or krigaren be deranged.

Posted by: Kaethar 1.Mar.2010, 01:46 AM

Yeah, he must be kidding... surely?

I guess he doesn't realise Sweden was a relatively homogenous society up until 40 years ago. Immigrants often don't have the language skills or the connections to make it far whilst the second generation born here is still quite young. How can you expect many bosses of companies and such to be members of ethnic minorities? blink.gif

Either krigeren is trolling or he's simply that ignorant. unsure.gif

Also, as a summary...

Migrant Integration Policy Index

Sweden: http://www.integrationindex.eu/integrationindex/2549.html

Compared to, for example, Canada: http://www.integrationindex.eu/integrationindex/2309.html

Enjoy. smile.gif

Posted by: Security 1.Mar.2010, 02:31 AM

Sweden is Smut State where discrimination is based on mother tongue, family name and skin-colour (the things that you can’t basically change even if you would like to – interestingly not so much on religion as you can change that, neither on sexual orientation)

In my opinion the discrimination is not ideological but purely for economical reasons. There is a well executed and institutionalized propaganda about immigrants that exist to allow majority ethnic to use and abuse immigrant rights and steal money from their pocket accusing them for things that they are actually doing themself.

I believe all immigrants and minorities here in Sweden need to rally together to get their share of the power in this country and not be afraid of concentration camps,
as discrimination roots are not ideological, but actually pure smut.

Posted by: JoeSwede 1.Mar.2010, 05:24 AM

There's many posters here that contend that Swedish citizens are systematically denying jobs to immigrants. Please justify your claims...

Posted by: gplusa 1.Mar.2010, 06:45 AM

When I was employing staff in New Zealand, the CEO of my company told me that I wasn't to hire anyone if he couldn't pronounce their name. Anyone who believes that Sweden's attitude towards immigrants is any less inviting than their own country really has been living with their head in the sand.

Posted by: powerace 1.Mar.2010, 07:28 AM

I dont know what to say except: If you dont like it here; Move back home.

There are countries where immigrants live in tents.

There are countries even i EU where immigrants live on camps, What more do you want from Sweden? You have every possibilitie if you take it here in Sweden, Whining is not helping anyone.

Posted by: animalr 1.Mar.2010, 08:10 AM

having actually LIVED in an apartheid state for the majority of my life, I think you have no idea what you are talking about. To even consider the comparison is ridiculous and an insult to people who suffer real discimination and systematic exclusion.
Of course there is an ongoing need to develop the integration of minorities in Sweden - nobody denies that. But give me a break on the melodrama of calling it apartheid.

Posted by: Schomberg 1.Mar.2010, 08:42 AM

QUOTE (Bender B Rodriquez @ 28.Feb.2010, 08:12 PM) *
I agree that Sweden is an extremely segregated country, however, to say that it is due to racism is an oversimplification.
Sweden is simply not a meritocracy. Of course merit and qualifications count, but unless you have the right connections you will never be able to compete truly. Combine this with the Swedish conformity and fear of change and you get a segregated society.
It is not discrimination based on skin colour or nationality; it is discrimination based on who you went to school with, which area you grew up, which university you attended, etc. It is a matter of class.

so...basically, you're saying..it's like everywhere else? immigrants are always competing for low skilled work. we cant speak the language so unless you have a very particular skill, you're going to be looking for jobs which are usually given to people connected to the particular company. either through family or friends. any place i worked for at home who had openings just told the factory workers and they always filled the job that way.

QUOTE (Tall swede @ 28.Feb.2010, 09:09 PM) *
Why do you come here of you expect (and want!) a war?
And what right do you have to drag sweden and swedes in to your war, when they let you come here?
And what will i lose? My country? My culture? My rights? If any of these, why do you want to take if from me?

dude, trust me - none of us want your country, your rights or your culture lol! don't get so worked up over a couple of posts on the internet.

Posted by: Blackman_for_Blondes 1.Mar.2010, 08:55 AM

You cannot let in the level of immigrants in Sweden and many who know nothing about western cultures and expect no back kick from the local population...the BNP is on the rise in the UK and they will probably do very well, and older Jamaicans will even vote for them in London..there is too much immigration in the whole of europe, we must first take care of the people that are here!!

Posted by: dave.smith 1.Mar.2010, 09:10 AM

Comparing Sweden to an apartheid system is ridiculous on so many levels. Krig, I've enjoyed your posts in the past, but this one just doesn't cut the mustard unfortunately. To counter your points:

1. Immigrants are not denied any of the rights that apartheid victims were

2. There is nothing stopping immigrants from succeeding except not understanding the system well enough to play it.

To further illustrate this, let's take me:

A. Before coming to Sweden, I:

1. Made lots of good friends over the internet, holidayed with many of them

2. Experienced the beautiful nature in Sweden as well as the relaxed, rural lifestyle of the Swedish countryside,

3. Went on fantastic camping trips

4. Made many more friends and contacts

5. bought a farm and planned my move quite carefully, but never doubted I wanted to move to that beautiful country.

B. Since coming to Sweden, I have:

1. Started a company now with millions of kronor, doing business throughout the EU

2. Made lots of contacts and friends, immigrants and Swedes alike

3. Started dating a very beautiful Swedish girl

4. Taken many overseas trips frequently

5. Enjoyed my hobbies and social life, which is much better than it was in the UK

In the future, I plan to:

1. Buy property in Spain, where we holiday often

2. Expand my business

3. Get married and have kids

4. Buy a Bugatti or Ferrari

5. Once the kids have finished primary school in Sweden, send them to a public school in Britain and, split my years 6 months/ 6 months between a vinyard in the south of France and Småland, Sweden

Posted by: byke 1.Mar.2010, 09:11 AM

I agree that there is a sense of double standards and a 2 tier system of elitism rampant in sweden, but believe this is across many different spectrums not only in regards to "immigrant" status (although it does apply to the larger majority).

Posted by: Schomberg 1.Mar.2010, 09:28 AM

QUOTE (dave.smith @ 1.Mar.2010, 09:10 AM) *
1. Started a company now with millions of kronor, doing business throughout the EU

giveus a job... cool.gif

Posted by: dave.smith 1.Mar.2010, 09:38 AM

Ha ha, sure smile.gif

If you know any .NET, OS Grid, Python, Blender, please do send me your CV - also need to be willing to relocate to Småland in southern Sweden smile.gif

We also have a practical exam that has been set up to test your knowledge of OS Grid (installing, customizing, compiling, usage) as this is quite an important part of our business and we have had too many people that have some knowledge but really not deep enough to be useful who have applied.

Posted by: Schomberg 1.Mar.2010, 09:40 AM

mate, i make a mean coffee... biggrin.gif

Posted by: dave.smith 1.Mar.2010, 09:41 AM

Coffee making skills may actually be more useful than some of the programmers we have at the moment - they specialize in fika breaks and football table laugh.gif

Posted by: dave.smith 1.Mar.2010, 09:56 AM

Anyway, the point is that if an immigrant with hardly any Swedish skills can achieve what I have, does it not prove that it is possible to "make it" in Sweden?

Posted by: Schomberg 1.Mar.2010, 10:03 AM

nope, thats true. the difference being that you immersed yourself in the swedish language/life/culture, but the majority of us don't. besides the few I know that own bars, the other brits i know who have done well have intergrated well into the society here. if you don't do that, then you better get comfortable with doing low skilled work for low skilled paid. and get a missus with good job prospects biggrin.gif

Posted by: byke 1.Mar.2010, 10:05 AM

QUOTE (dave.smith @ 1.Mar.2010, 09:56 AM) *
Anyway, the point is that if an immigrant with hardly any Swedish skills can achieve what I have, does it not prove that it is possible to "make it" in Sweden?

Is it a question of "making it" or simply a question about perceived prejudice?
Technically I could claim to have "made it" also ... but it doesn't mean that the original question doesn't hold merit.

Posted by: Rick Methven 1.Mar.2010, 10:30 AM

QUOTE (dave.smith @ 1.Mar.2010, 09:41 AM) *
Coffee making skills may actually be more useful than some of the programmers we have at the moment - they specialize in fika breaks and football table laugh.gif

About 20 years ago I had a partnership with a company that was developing In flight entertainment software. There was one programmer who was absolutely brilliant but could not speak to anybody unless he had his hands on the computer keyboard and had to be constantly fed coke, cakes and computer games to keep him working cool.gif

Posted by: just a question 1.Mar.2010, 10:44 AM

There is no job. Therefore the party is over.
Sweden is a country in crisis. In a country in crisis the worst affected are the immigrants.
When everything is ok and the money runs everybody accept and welcome immigrants.
When there are no jobs the immigrants are the ones stealing jobs and the social benefits.
Therefore everybody becomes xenophobic.

Human beings are so predictable that they stink.
It's time to come back home. Either that or go to another country.

Posted by: dave.smith 1.Mar.2010, 10:52 AM

QUOTE (Rick Methven @ 1.Mar.2010, 11:30 AM) *
About 20 years ago I had a partnership with a company that was developing In flight entertainment software. There was one programmer who was absolutely brilliant but could not speak to anybody unless he had his hands on the computer keyboard and had to be constantly fed coke, cakes and computer games to keep him working cool.gif

laugh.gif there are some funny characters in the IT world... one of my current guys is actually a bit similar to that... he sits with headphones on while he is coding, drinking coke, just saying "Så...så...så...så" over and over ... (every few minutes or every 30 minutes or so, the interval depends). It used to be annoying, but he is just so good that everyone has to deal with it, because he is too valuable to piss off.

Posted by: Lt. Gonville Bromhead 1.Mar.2010, 10:55 AM

Sweden an apartheid system???

FFS, maybe if some people spent less time finding and inventing perceived injustices and more time cracking on finding work, they'd have a happier life.

Surprise surprise, a country which middle class consists of 90% white people, has a white collar industry made up of 90% white people.

As an aside...and as an immigrant myself, if it's so bad in Sweden, we are all welcome to return home.

Posted by: mc87 1.Mar.2010, 10:56 AM

I would agree with most posters that Sweden is not an Apartheid State. However, I can still see that the poster makes some valid points with respects to exclusion and segregation. What really amazes me is that the majority of the posters "blame" immigrants for their current situation.

The most common claim for example, is learn Swedish. On this topic most people are so quick at blaming the “immigrant”. The argument generally goes something like this: the immigrant decides NOT to learn Swedish and therefore can NOT obtain high paying jobs etc. Etc. Have you considered external factors that may affect the ability of an individual (‘immigrant’) to learn Swedish? For example right now there is a lack of funding making the waiting list for SFI in some areas more than three months? There is a lack of specialised training which means that “immigrants” who are educated in specific area are unable to learn Swedish in their related field. Oh, and even if an “immigrant” had the required language skills I am inclined to think that unless the degree came from Sweden – it probably won’t be trusted.

On the same level, the arguments about ‘knowing’ Swedish culture which range from ‘Immigrants’ do not want to integrate, and end with arguments such as “Swedes know their own culture better and therefore get the jobs before immigrants”. Are you serious? Both of these arguments go above and beyond ‘integration’ and are starting sounding like claims of ‘assimilation’. And the first claim is, once again, focusing the blame entirely on the ‘immigrant’. ...

Posted by: krigeren 1.Mar.2010, 11:00 AM

Their is de facto apartheid and de jure apartheid.

I say that Sweden practices de jure apartheid.

Sweden is very good at dotting the i's and crossing the t's when it comes to keeping up appearances so it looks good in comparison with other countries. For example,

A former poster commented on this link in regards to Sweden being a stellar example...the problem is while these programs exist, the integration and use of these programs is a whole completely different issue...companies do not take advantage of the incentives...some of this is due to lack of education..but a lot of it is due to maintaining a "Swedish workplace" at all costs...not all of that desire necessarily comes from the employer them-self but from unions as well.

http://www.integrationindex.eu/integrationindex/2549.html

To reiterate, yes, Sweden tries to look good on paper, but in actuality the society remains very tough for immigrants to integrate into...Its critical that people understand that Sweden is now a country of immigrants at higher levels per capita than the US or the UK...for Sweden's own sake it better start acting like it and giving more opportunities.

If people keep burying their head in the sand about this issue its only going to get worse.

I mean...I am a moderate..I want reforms that benefit society and the immigrant. I want to get immigrants jobs and work. Overall, I want immigrants to benefit the society overall and be viewed as an asset.


However, there is an entire cleavage of immigrants who are extremist..if they organize there is going to be problems here much larger than ever seen before...

I stand 110% behind what I say. The racist and those that discriminate will give whatever excuse to maintain the status quo.

Lets take a look at the aims of Apartheid in South Africa...

The aim of apartheid was to separate all the people of South Africa into small independent nations. But the National Party government did not want to spend a lot of money on this project. Also, they wanted to keep most of South Africa's land for white people. Especially the rich parts of the country, like the gold mines of Johannesburg. They also wanted black people to work in these mines for little money. But they did not want black men's families to live in the same area.

Look at how Sweden operates today functionally...there are many parallels to the above statement...just broaden it out to reflect on immigrants overall.

Look at some of the school in Sweden with barely any Swedish kids..how are those kids supposed to integrate...I suppose we have to start looking at busing as well.

Posted by: Lt. Gonville Bromhead 1.Mar.2010, 11:02 AM

Unfortunately, countries cannot base their employment opportunities (which are largely dictated by the private sector anyway) or social sectors around fitting in with the needs of immigrants.

It is the duty of the immigrant (us) to fit in with the culture that we have voluntarily moved in to.

I have no time for fellow immigrants whinging about not finding a job which caters specifically for the language they speak - the internet and books given by the SFI are more than enough. If the incentive is not there to learn, then it is the immigrants fault.

Posted by: Luckystrike 1.Mar.2010, 11:03 AM

Apartheid?? I dont think you know what apartheid actually is, or what it's like to experience OR your from an African country and have a twisted/warped idea of how the world works.

Posted by: krigeren 1.Mar.2010, 11:06 AM

QUOTE (mc87 @ 1.Mar.2010, 10:56 AM) *
I would agree with most posters that Sweden is not an Apartheid State. However, I can still see that the poster makes some valid points with respects to exclusion and segregation. What really amazes me is that the majority of the posters "blame" immigrants for their current situation.

The most common claim for example, is learn Swedish. On this topic most people are so quick at blaming the “immigrant”. The argument generally goes something like this: the immigrant decides NOT to learn Swedish and therefore can NOT obtain high paying jobs etc. Etc. Have you considered external factors that may affect the ability of an individual (‘immigrant’) to learn Swedish? For example right now there is a lack of funding making the waiting list for SFI in some areas more than three months? There is a lack of specialised training which means that “immigrants” who are educated in specific area are unable to learn Swedish in their related field. Oh, and even if an “immigrant” had the required language skills I am inclined to think that unless the degree came from Sweden – it probably won’t be trusted.

On the same level, the arguments about ‘knowing’ Swedish culture which range from ‘Immigrants’ do not want to integrate, and end with arguments such as “Swedes know their own culture better and therefore get the jobs before immigrants”. Are you serious? Both of these arguments go above and beyond ‘integration’ and are starting sounding like claims of ‘assimilation’. And the first claim is, once again, focusing the blame entirely on the ‘immigrant’. ...


You make many strong points. I agree with you that Sweden is not an apartheid state officially, however, we may disagree that unofficially it is.

What you are saying about SFI is absolutely true...and SFI DOES NOT prepare immigrants for the job market. Immigrants that complete level D can only handle basic blue collar jobs.

Regarding your last paragraph...no wonder why there is such polarization..people are not very well educated on immigrant issues to begin with..the typical reaction is "go home" well for many immigrants they are home...and of course they will see fit to decorate their lives as they see fit.

Good stuff...

Posted by: byke 1.Mar.2010, 11:11 AM

QUOTE (Lt. Gonville Bromhead @ 1.Mar.2010, 10:55 AM) *
As an aside...and as an immigrant myself, if it's so bad in Sweden, we are all welcome to return home.


That last line really makes me question your legitimacy.


QUOTE (Lt. Gonville Bromhead @ 1.Mar.2010, 11:02 AM) *
I have no time for fellow immigrants whinging about not finding a job which caters specifically for the language they speak - the internet and books given by the SFI are more than enough. If the incentive is not there to learn, then it is the immigrants fault.


Again, that seems to be a contradiction given your posts on here.

Posted by: missla 1.Mar.2010, 12:00 PM

I think Immigrant is a very general term and we have to bear in mind which type we are talking bout.

In my view there are two types: the one that Do try to integrate and the one that doesn't give a shit for that. So it can't be said that students belong to the first and refugees belon to the second. On the contrary!

As I am new to Sweden (arrived in August) I will talk about my experience in Ireland and then maybe someone can compare it to Sweden better than I could do.

During the boom in Ireland, many immigrants moved there, mainly Polish, Eslovakians and even Brazilians. What I noticed withing the Brazilian community was that there was these two types of immigrants but unfortunatelly 80% of them belonged to the second group, the "non-integrationist" one. All they did was make a fortune in Ireland, complain about the weather, about the food and even about the people (which for me are absolutely amazing people). Of course they were doing shitty jobs as Irish themselves refused to do it but I don't blame them for that as these Brazilians did not make any effort whatsoever to learn English. They were closed within their own community, so at some stage in some villages there was the brazilian priest, the brazilian doctor, the brazilian supermarket, etc. They themselves told me 100 times "what's the point in learning english if in a e years time we will go back home with all the money we made here?". I strongly disagree with this position and I think it is a pure ignorant thought.

The second type of immigrant, which I include myself, not only spoke the language (fluently or fairly) but tried to learn about the country, met MANY Irish people which become good friends, and although the weather is shite really interested in exploring the beauties of the country and in learning about the history and culture which is absolutely rich! And I am sure depending on the educational degree (regardless of where it was taken) could get better jobs, as good as Irish jobs.

So I left Ireland and came to Sweden to do a Masters and I have been really trying to integrate into the society just as I did in Ireland. I have started learning Swedish but I find it a hard language but still I wanna learn as I am here in the country. However I thought it would be easier to integrate as everyone speaks English, but that's not what I see. The few sweeds in my class don't integrate with the rest of the foreign students, it doesn't matter how hard we try. I also have been trying to find a job in my area, Communications, but I haven't been succeed yet. I speak 3 languages fluently, have plenty background experience and I've been really working hard on the swedish but how can I in fact improve it if it is basically restricted to everyday situations and classroom?

I agree 100% that to get a better job in a country it is fair enough that you speak the language of it and that everyone should try to integrate instead of just complain about it, but here in Sweden I see that even in English-speaking jobs they require fluent Swedish. In addition to that, even in shitty jobs as kitchen porters, cleaning etc they require fluent Swedish. In this point, I find Ireland more tolerant with immigrants with no or little English.

And to finalise, I agree wih a comment above (I don't remember now who said it) that in times of a boom, First world countries open their doors to immigrants as their very inhabitants refuse to do the dirty jobs. However, in times of crisis, they turn to these same immigrants and accuse them of "stealing the job" and do all they can to send them back home. It is true though that some immigrants are making use of the welfare state without contributing back to the society but to generalise that all immigrants are like that is non-sense.

These are my views so far. I might be wrong, as I said I haven't been here long enough to know exactly how it is...

Posted by: Blackman_for_Blondes 1.Mar.2010, 02:05 PM

@missla

Do you think you have the God given right to hop from country to country in the EU and for everyone to accommodate you? I hope not! If you were from an EU yes, but Brazil please give us break! This is the idea that drives me mad people thinking they come and go as they like..older immigrants never behaved like that.

Posted by: missla 1.Mar.2010, 02:42 PM

@Blackman

I have the right to hop from country to country whenever and wherever I want, whether it is the EU, Asia, South America, etc. Freedom of movement, do you know what it means? Even yourself with your disgusting xenophobism have the right to go, travel and live anywhere you want.

Posted by: krigeren 1.Mar.2010, 02:46 PM

^^

Posted by: Rick Methven 1.Mar.2010, 02:55 PM

QUOTE (missla @ 1.Mar.2010, 02:42 PM) *
@Blackman

I have the right to hop from country to country whenever and wherever I want, whether it is the EU, Asia, South America, etc. Freedom of movement, do you know what it means? Even yourself with your disgusting xenophobism have the right to go, travel and live anywhere you want.

If your attitude is to move on from one country to another because they want you to speak the language of the country to get a decent job then you are going to either spend the rest of your life flitting from country to country or going back to Brazil. It is normal in any country including Brazil to require local language skills to get a good job. I was once offered a job with EMBRAER. I had the skills that they where looking for and the language of aviation is English which is my native tongue, but I would still have to be able to speak Brazilian to get along with local colleagues and deal with the bureaucracy.

Posted by: Lt. Gonville Bromhead 1.Mar.2010, 03:06 PM

QUOTE (missla @ 1.Mar.2010, 03:42 PM) *
@Blackman

I have the right to hop from country to country whenever and wherever I want, whether it is the EU, Asia, South America, etc. Freedom of movement, do you know what it means? Even yourself with your disgusting xenophobism have the right to go, travel and live anywhere you want.

Whether you agree with varying international law or not is moot - you don't have that right to come and go as you please.

Posted by: missla 1.Mar.2010, 03:11 PM

@Rick

That's not my intention, it's the opposite. Before I lived in Ireland I already spoke English fluently and I love learning languages. As I said, I already speak 3 languages and I am very excited about learning a fourth one, Swedish, although I find it very hard. And I agree with you that it is absolutely normal in any country to require the local language and I think they are right in doing it. You are living in the country, so integrate (wih language, culture, people, etc).

It is almost impossible for a foreigner survive in Brazil with no portuguese, for instance! My point was that among the countries I have lived (Brazil, Ireland and Sweden), I found Ireland the most tolerant regarding speaking the native language as I saw many immigrants with no English having no problems in geting a job(of course in shitty jobs and before the downturn!).

I think I was misunderstood! tongue.gif

Posted by: Rick Methven 1.Mar.2010, 03:29 PM

QUOTE (missla @ 1.Mar.2010, 03:11 PM) *
It is almost impossible for a foreigner survive in Brazil with no portuguese,


Portugese?

I always remember being told by a Brazilan friend in Rio

"Nosemos hablamos Portaniol" laugh.gif

Posted by: Blackman_for_Blondes 1.Mar.2010, 03:37 PM

xenophobism...you use that word lightly when you don't like something...I would love to live in the USA and work there but, I'm not allowed...fact, you on the other hand think you have right to go wherever you want and have the red carpet spread out for you..lol and then the one maybe black-men in here tells you that's wrong and iam racist ...LOL...My uncle and father came to the UK from Jamaica and were in the army they earned the right to stay and they worked at all kind of shit jobs afterwards and never complained...you don'tknow what xenophobism is my dear??? I see no signs here saying no Irish, no blacks, no dogs...ah ah?

Posted by: Schomberg 1.Mar.2010, 03:43 PM

QUOTE (Blackman_for_Blondes @ 1.Mar.2010, 03:37 PM) *
I see no signs here saying no Irish, no blacks, no dogs...ah ah?

just for the record, those signs never existed. made up shite by republicans to further their MOPE symdrome

Posted by: Blackman_for_Blondes 1.Mar.2010, 04:21 PM

We have revisionist in here, so Irish republicans went around the east of London putting up them signs then?...lol..you believe what you want

Posted by: Bender B Rodriquez 1.Mar.2010, 07:35 PM

QUOTE (Schomberg @ 1.Mar.2010, 08:42 AM) *
so...basically, you're saying..it's like everywhere else? immigrants are always competing for low skilled work. we cant speak the language so unless you have a very particular skill, you're going to be looking for jobs which are usually given to people connected to the particular company. either through family or friends. any place i worked for at home who had openings just told the factory workers and they always filled the job that way.

Yes, but I would say that it is more prevalent in Sweden than in many other countries, especially the English speaking ones.

Posted by: superturbo 1.Mar.2010, 08:59 PM

QUOTE (krigeren @ 1.Mar.2010, 12:06 PM) *
You make many strong points. I agree with you that Sweden is not an apartheid state officially, however, we may disagree that unofficially it is.

What you are saying about SFI is absolutely true...and SFI DOES NOT prepare immigrants for the job market. Immigrants that complete level D can only handle basic blue collar jobs.

That's partly true, SFI teaches only basic Swedish and basic knowledge about the society. The rest is up to the student to find out on his/her own. There are several other alternatives to SFI when it comes to learn Swedish that probably are much better at it.

With your definition of an apartheid state you can probably blame most countries for being 'apartheid'...

Posted by: krigeren 1.Mar.2010, 09:21 PM

Lets break it down to a simple definition...

The aim of apartheid was to separate all the people of South Africa into small independent nations. But the National Party government did not want to spend a lot of money on this project. Also, they wanted to keep most of South Africa's land for white people. Especially the rich parts of the country, like the gold mines of Johannesburg. They also wanted black people to work in these mines for little money. But they did not want black men's families to live in the same area.

Then you are correct in some regards...Norway and Denmark even more Apartheid like states than Sweden.

The concept of the nation state...its antiquated.. The federalization of Europe and the free movement of labor help to further fragment the nation state conceptualization. If people think they have more to gain by holding onto their cultures at all costs and repelling other cultures other ways of thinking...than your nation is behind the times...because the trend of the world..is to be global..to be integrated as a planet. Nations that lead the way in this trend, those that are proactive, will gain from the benefit of a multi-cultural society which far outweighs any benefit from a largely homogeneous society. With a multi cultural society you bring forth more points of view, more knowledge, more possibilities. Too many people only focus on the negative aspects of it...they are the small minded ones.

Now, lets tackle your second point, it really makes no sense that after SFI the immigrant is "on their own" you have to stop looking at this as an individual immigrant and instead a plethora of immigrants...if SFI does not properly prepare immigrants for the workforce and their are high levels of unemployment amongst immigrants..then that is bad for Sweden as a whole and not just the immigrants in question. You have to think bigger, small minded thinking is counterproductive.

On the other hand, you might think the status quo is fine. High levels of unemployment here are fine..an insider and outsider culture are fine...you might think all of those things...and very well then you would be a part of the problem and not part of the solution. Come up with some real solutions that work instead of advice that is relatively useless.

Posted by: astrogenic 1.Mar.2010, 09:55 PM

QUOTE (krigeren @ 1.Mar.2010, 10:21 PM) *
The concept of the nation state...its antiquated.. The federalization of Europe and the free movement of labor help to further fragment the nation state conceptualization. If people think they have more to gain by holding onto their cultures at all costs and repelling other cultures other ways of thinking...than your nation is behind the times...because the trend of the world..is to be global..to be integrated as a planet. Nations that lead the way in this trend, those that are proactive, will gain from the benefit of a multi-cultural society which far outweighs any benefit from a largely homogeneous society. With a multi cultural society you bring forth more points of view, more knowledge, more possibilities. Too many people only focus on the negative aspects of it...they are the small minded ones.

Now, lets tackle your second point, it really makes no sense that after SFI the immigrant is "on their own" you have to stop looking at this as an individual immigrant and instead a plethora of immigrants...if SFI does not properly prepare immigrants for the workforce and their are high levels of unemployment amongst immigrants..then that is bad for Sweden as a whole and not just the immigrants in question. You have to think bigger, small minded thinking is counterproductive.

On the other hand, you might think the status quo is fine. High levels of unemployment here are fine..an insider and outsider culture are fine...you might think all of those things...and very well then you would be a part of the problem and not part of the solution. Come up with some real solutions that work instead of advice that is relatively useless.

You above statements are full of inaccuracies and contradictions. Let me clarify a couple.

For example, you say that the notion of "nation state" is "antiquated", yet further down your comments, you say "Nations" that lead the way in this trend, those that are proactive, will gain from the benefit of a multi-cultural society which far outweighs any benefit from a largely homogeneous society."

So, who or what is this "nations" that you say will benefit from "multi cultural society", as you put it??? You say the idea of "nation" is "antiquated" on the one hand, and then say that "nation" will benefit, on the other? Your argument makes no sense.

Also, you say nations must accept the idea of "multi cultural society" where native population and immigrants work together for the benefit of each other. Yet, there are a large number of immigrants whose aim it is to keep their cultural identity and thus segregate themselves culturally from the mainstream society.

You cannot simply argue always for the natives to accept multi-cultural society, while say nothing at all of the need for those immigrants to learn and respect the cultural identity of natives as well.

Overall, your arguments are driven by subjective, rather than rational, motives that are incapable of being sensitive to the cultural, but also ecnomic, needs of BOTH immigrants and natives as well.

Without such sensitivities, and in the present times of heightened cultural conflicts and tensions, I consider your contributions to be highly dangerous.

Posted by: krigeren 1.Mar.2010, 10:07 PM

QUOTE (astrogenic @ 1.Mar.2010, 09:55 PM) *
You above statements are full of inaccuracies and contradictions. Let me clarify few.

For example, you say that the notion of "nation state" is "antiquated", yet further down your comments, you say "Nations that lead the way in this trend, those that are proactive, will gain from the benefit of a multi-cultural society which far outweighs any benefit from a largely homogeneous society."

So, who or what is this "nations" that you say will benefit from "multi cultural society", as you put it??? You said "nation" is antiquated on the one hand, and then say that "nation" will benefit? Your argument makes no sense.

Also, you say nations must accept the idea of "multi cultural society" where native population and immigrates work together for the benefit of each other. Yet, there are a large number of immigrates whose aim it is to keep their cultural identity and thus
segregate themselves from the mainstream society.

You cannot simply argue always for the natives to accept multi-cultural society, while say nnothing at all for the need of immigrants to learn and respect the cultural identity of natives as well.

Overall, your arguments are driven by subjective, rather than rational, motives that are incapable of being sensitive to the cultural, but also ecnomic and political, needs of BOTH immigrats and natives as well.


There is no contradiction. Not all nations are built under the nation state concept...one nation one people. Some nations have learned to adopt multiculturalism and benefited from it, the USA and Canada being two examples.

I think you have it completely bassackwards, I think the immigrant populations that arrive in a "nation state" style nation often do not integrate at a rate nearly as fast as those who find themselves in a multi-cultural nation such as The United States.

For example, in the US most immigrants fully integrate into the culture within a generation, sometimes even the first generation that arrives integrates in only a few years. That is the magic of a multi cultural society where integration is a world of broad possibilities for people, whereas when trying to integrate into the nation state with a homogeneous population, the immigrants path is much more narrow, limited, and often more so hampered and frustrating.

I don't know of many immigrants who don't make an honest effort to be productive in Swedish society. Right now I am trying to staff an engineer from Russia who is in his 50's. He has three kids and is a super hard worker and is brilliant. His weakness is languages however, given tasks and duties that are clear he would happily work all the time for a modest wage...I feel really bad for the guy because he has been used by others for praktik positions over and over with no real job at the end..I am determined to find this guy work...his only weakness is language..he should not suffer from it..hell the guy built oil pipelines in all conditions from the arctic to the desert...he deserves better than his lot in life now..he deserves the dignity of going home to his kids knowing he earned an honest wage for honest work.

PS...I see you added a highly dangerous part...Highly Dangerous for who?

Neither myself nor anyone I know is throwing rocks or causing riots. Its important to have a healthy discourse. Not all people may agree some may even despise what I am saying..however, I have the right to say these things..Further more, in times of conflict - either overt or covert conflict - the worst that can happen is for dialogue between people to cease.

Posted by: astrogenic 1.Mar.2010, 10:21 PM

QUOTE (krigeren @ 1.Mar.2010, 11:07 PM) *
There is no contradiction. Not all nations are built under the nation state concept...one nation one people. Some nations have learned to adopt multiculturalism and benefited from it, the USA and Canada being two examples.


I think you'll find that you got your definitions of "nation" and "nation state" wrong. When people say "nation", they mean "nation state". Therefore, your argument about "nation" idea is antiquated - in other words, you believe nation does not exist - is wrong. There are many people who still adhere to that ideal. Whether you think this ideal is right or wrong should not blind you from this fact.

There is another disturbing aspect to your argument, and that is that you are simply incapable of even attempting to take into considerations of the opinions, views and values of those who still want to adhere to the ideal of "a nation" - one nation, one people.

One of the most important task at hand is not to just reject the views and values of these "nationalists" out of hand. Such an approach will do nothing but to heighten already explosive cultural tensions and conflicts amongst natives and immigrants till all hell break loose - in other words, civil war.

You are an idealist. I can tell. But, don't let your idealist passion run away from "reality".

P.S.

I see you didn't understand why I called you "dangerous". The above is the reason.

Posted by: krigeren 1.Mar.2010, 10:36 PM

QUOTE (astrogenic @ 1.Mar.2010, 10:21 PM) *
I think you'll find that you got your definitions of "nation" and "nation state" wrong. When people say "nation", they mean "nation state". Therefore, your argument about "nation" idea is antiquated - in other words, you believe nation does not exist - is wrong. There are many people who still adhere to that ideal. Whether you think this ideal is right or wrong should not blind you from this fact.

There is another disturbing aspect to your argument, and that is that you are simply incapable of even attempting to take into considerations of the opinions, views and values of those who still want to adhere to the ideal of "a nation" - one nation, one people.

One of the most important task at hand is not to just reject the views and values of these "nationalists" out of hand. Such an approach will do nothing but to heighten already explosive cultural conflicts amongst natives and immigrants till all hell break loose - in other words, civil war.

You are an idealist. I can tell. But, don't let your idealist passion run away from "reality".

P.S.

I see you didn't understand why I called you "dangerous". The above is the reason.


I am more of a realist than you may contend. I would not try to press forward these same ideals in Norway or Denmark. Norway and Denmark have both mad choices to what kinds of countries they want to be. They want to stay nation states.


Sweden has let in massive amounts of immigrants, Sweden made a decision to enter the EU. I am not making these decisions the Swedish people have. The Swedish people decided these policies..I am not digging up dirt I am only looking at the clay in front of me and figuring out what best to make use of it for.

Sweden also has a very clear constitution...

Chapter 1 Article 2
(1) Public power shall be exercised with respect for the equal worth of all and for the freedom and dignity of the individual.
(2) The personal, economic and cultural welfare of the individual shall be fundamental aims of public activity. In particular, it shall be incumbent upon the public administration to secure the right to work, housing and education, and to promote social care and social security and a good living environment.
(3) The public administration shall promote the ideals of democracy as guidelines in all sectors of society. The public administration shall guarantee equal rights to men and women and protect the private and family lives of the individual.
(4) Opportunities should be promoted for ethnic, linguistic and religious minorities to preserve and develop a cultural and social life of their own.



Therefore, Sweden due the the combination's of high levels of immigration (20% of the population is foreign born or the child of two immigrant parents), Sweden's entry into the EU, and the rights afforded to all citizens; but specifically Chapter 1 Article 2 of the Constitution...

Well, in sum it gives immigrants a great opportunity to realize their own destiny in this country. The constitution provides an ample framework for immigrants to press forward their integration and success into the society by legal means if necessary.

It is very difficult to read Chapter 1, Article 2 of the Swedish constitution and say any thing other than that Sweden's true meaning of integration as provided for by the constitution is that of a multi-cultural society.

Posted by: Gustav- Fælbönnran 1.Mar.2010, 11:31 PM

QUOTE (krigeren @ 1.Mar.2010, 10:36 PM) *
Therefore, Sweden due the the combination's of high levels of immigration (20% of the population is foreign born or the child of two immigrant parents), Sweden's entry into the EU, and the rights afforded to all citizens; but specifically Chapter 1 Article 2 of the Constitution...

The 20% number has to be seen in its proper demographic context. 20% of the total population is inclusive of the elderly Swedes, and those past reproductive years. When one spends time in Swedish schools, particularly urban schools, one starts to suspect that immigrants and children of immigrants are closer to 50% of young Swedes. We Swedes have a very low birth-rate, especially when compared to the birth-rate of some of our immigrant populations. We are the last generation of ethnic Swedes that will be in a majority here.

I am starting to wonder why we even bother teaching Swedish in school. If anything, it is a barrier to success in our globalised world. Teaching Swedish is a little bit like teaching Sami; it is desirable for ethnic Swedes and the Sami to maintain some connection with our cultures, but these languages have no future. Perhaps SFI should focus on English language instruction and job training. Or Chinese.

Posted by: krigeren 1.Mar.2010, 11:37 PM

If you could be in "god mode" within the realm of Sweden for a day and make sweeping changes...What are the top things you would do?

Posted by: astrogenic 1.Mar.2010, 11:44 PM

QUOTE (krigeren @ 1.Mar.2010, 11:36 PM) *
Sweden also has a very clear constitution...

Chapter 1 Article 2
(4) Opportunities should be promoted for ethnic, linguistic and religious minorities to preserve and develop a cultural and social life of their own.


Well, in sum it gives immigrants a great opportunity to realize their own destiny in this country. The constitution provides an ample framework for immigrants to press forward their integration and success into the society by legal means if necessary.

It is very difficult to read Chapter 1, Article 2 of the Swedish constitution and say any thing other than that Sweden's true meaning of integration as provided for by the constitution is that of a multi-cultural society.

You seem to have forgotten the fact that democracy allows for change, and that's what good about it, and "the constitution" is of no exception.

Therefore, I still consider your opinions too dangerous.

Posted by: Gustav- Fælbönnran 1.Mar.2010, 11:46 PM

Stop global over-population.

From a Swedish perspective, we have always been open to people moving here from other countries. It has never been that big of an issue because it looked like we would maintain an essentially Swedish culture with a bunch of smaller cultural groups mixed in.

Now that the world's population is pushing 7 billion people, and rising steadily, we are coming to the realisation that Swedish culture is going to be a historical footnote soon.

It would probably bother me a lot more if I wasn't so heavily sedated.

Posted by: krigeren 1.Mar.2010, 11:52 PM

QUOTE (astrogenic @ 1.Mar.2010, 11:44 PM) *
You seem to have forgotten the fact that democracy allows for change, and that's what good about it, and "the constitution" is of no exception.

Therefore, I still consider your opinions too dangerous.


I really do not get where this "dangerous" line of thought is coming from?

In an earlier post you mentioned civil war?

Who would fight each other?

Swedes have not been to a war in a long time and when they did go to war they were really good at picking their battles generally...they sure as hell would not be dumb enough to fight on their own territory.

I don't know of any large cleavages of organized and violent immigrant groups. I know of organized immigrant groups and violent immigrant groups but generally they do not go hand in hand...yes, there are some gangs here, but the gangs here are really not very violent by any "gang violence standard". Gangs here may murder a civilian or two or pick someone off for the right price...but when met with any real resistance the gangs back down pretty quick...save the biker gangs who seem to have a pair.

Sorry to think out loud there in the last paragraph but I really don't see civil war in Sweden's future especially over my opinions or anyone elses opinions. Wars are generally started over actions.


Gustav...Sedated??? ;-)

Posted by: Gustav- Fælbönnran 2.Mar.2010, 12:12 AM

QUOTE (krigeren @ 1.Mar.2010, 11:52 PM) *
. Wars are generally started over actions.

Trowbridge and I are going to disagree with you about this assessment. The actions that appear to spark wars are nearly always engineered to provide a rallying cry.

When Hitler needed an excuse to invade Poland, he sent some German army troops across the border wearing Polish army uniforms to fire on German troops, so he could galvanise German public support for his war.

Wars are a product of power struggles between two (or more) empowered groups. The powerless almost never rise up, by the way. Usually the second most powerful group challenges the most powerful group, or the most powerful group senses the power of the second most powerful group and lashes out to pre-empt a power grab by their rival(s).

I agree that war is unlikely in Scandinavia, though. The future has already been determined, and there is no going back now.

Posted by: krigeren 2.Mar.2010, 12:17 AM

QUOTE (Gustav- Fælbönnran @ 1.Mar.2010, 11:46 PM) *
Stop global over-population.

From a Swedish perspective, we have always been open to people moving here from other countries. It has never been that big of an issue because it looked like we would maintain an essentially Swedish culture with a bunch of smaller cultural groups mixed in.

Now that the world's population is pushing 7 billion people, and rising steadily, we are coming to the realisation that Swedish culture is going to be a historical footnote soon.

It would probably bother me a lot more if I wasn't so heavily sedated.

Sedated??

QUOTE (Gustav- Fælbönnran @ 2.Mar.2010, 12:12 AM) *
Trowbridge and I are going to disagree with you about this assessment. The actions that appear to spark wars are nearly always engineered to provide a rallying cry.

When Hitler needed an excuse to invade Poland, he sent some German army troops across the border wearing Polish army uniforms to fire on German troops, so he could galvanise German public support for his war.

Wars are a product of power struggles between two (or more) empowered groups. The powerless almost never rise up, by the way. Usually the second most powerful group challenges the most powerful group, or the most powerful group senses the power of the second most powerful group and lashes out to pre-empt a power grab by their rival(s).

I agree that war is unlikely in Scandinavia, though. The future has already been determined, and there is no going back now.

Its a matter of semantics. Actions could mean planning...etc..something that leads up to execution. Sitting around and talking about it, as we are now, won't cause the action leading to planning or execution..I agree with you.

Posted by: Gustav- Fælbönnran 2.Mar.2010, 12:19 AM

Yes, sedated.

I typically only manage to post here when I am wrapping up business trips, and getting ready to fly home. I like to be fully sedated before getting into one of those metal death-traps that are commonly referred to as aeroplanes. To this end, I consume as many adult beverages as I can tolerate, in search of a blissful lack of concern for my own situation. The only downside to this strategy, is that I tend to make up a lot of stories about Trowbridge's exploits in Cuba in the 1950s when I am in this state.

I want to make it perfectly clear that it is not because I am afraid of Death. Death is my friend. I just don't like the thought of falling out of the sky, with the ground rushing up at tremendous speed. It makes me uncomfortable.


Posted by: Gustav- Fælbönnran 2.Mar.2010, 01:21 AM

The sun rose slowly over the Cayo Levisa, as if the great fireball could sense the violence and chaos about to unfold, and had misgivings about proceding.

In the dawn’s early light, two figures could be observed emerging from the waves, clad head to toe in black rubber wetsuits. As the men reached the beach, they quickly scurried towards the nearest pile of brush and concealed their tanks and other apparatus.

Silently, the two men examined their map and compass. The shockingly blond, distinguished looking man was the first to speak.

“Nice work, Crap-head. Do you realize what you have done? Your lousy navigational skills have put us on the entirely wrong beach. You cretin! You imbecile! We’re nowhere near the SS-4 site at San Cristobal.”

“I,I, I merely meant to…” stammered Trowbridge’s larger, red-bearded assistant.

“Oh, shut up already, you useless buffoon.” Responded the professor. “I suppose I will have to get us out of this jam, as per usual.”

“Look”, said Trowbridge, “There is a passing bus, let’s see if it goes to San Cristobal”

With that, the two agents jogged over to the bus stop and manfully mounted the steps. The bus driver, mirrored in their Ray-bans, extended a hand for the fare.

“Gustav, don’t just stand there. Pay the man for our tickets.” Exhorted the professor.

Dutifully, the big Jamt reached into his billfold and extracted a thick wad of greenbacks. “How much do you think it is?” Queried the Jamt.

The sight of the US currency produced an immediate response from the riders of the bus. Until this moment, neither of our two protagonists had noticed that the side of the bus was adorned with the label “Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias”. Our strapping heroes had blundered onto a transport of the Revolutionary Guard!

Immediately the large Jamt was overpowered by several of these guards. The stalwart professor, an expert in the esoteric oriental arts of self-defense, managed to bite and gouge four or five guards before they subdued him with a fisherman’s net from a nearby wharf. Within moments, both agents were stripped naked, and buried in sand up to their necks.

By the third day of their ungainly confinement, they began to have serious concerns for their well-being. Fortunately, the local fishermen, who had earlier gambled for the agents' clothes and gear, began to take pity on them. Eventually, one of the fishermen sent his daughter, Mariela, to bring them some dried fish and tequila.
Gustav, used to the cooler clime of Jamtland, was nearly delusional in the baking heat, but, as usual, Dr. Ford had managed to keep his wits about him. When he saw Mariela approach, he quickly began to win her over.

“Hey, Chiquita” began Dr. Ford “Quiero volar contigo, Tocar tu ombligo Y pachanguear contigo.”

Mariela immediately picked up an oar from her father’s rowboat, and delivered a tremendous wallop to the noggin of the professor. And for good measure, she clobbered the stocky Jamt as well.

Minutes later, as the two agents regained their senses, Trowbridge noticed that he could now, as a result of being struck, wiggle about in the sand a little bit.

“Good news, Gus! I have freed us!” “Once night falls, we will be able to extricate ourselves from this earthen prison and abscond with one of those yonder rowboats.”

And so they did. They were unable to dis-able any rocket launchers on that trip, but they were able to provide General Curtis LeMay with some detailed descriptions of places where he might want to drop bombs if the opportunity arose.

--------------------------------------------

There are lots more of these escapades in the files, but I am getting a little groggy, and will need to sign off. Vaya con Dios, Dr. Ford y Mariela.

Posted by: Blackman_for_Blondes 2.Mar.2010, 01:37 AM

"I agree that war is unlikely in Scandinavia, though. The future has already been determined, and there is no going back now."

I was in Jamaica last summer I tell you one thing you know when civil war (and I agree its usually a power struggle between the two top groups) is in the air you feel it smell it and its makes you afraid, its not nice..people here in Sweden are hopefully too civilised for that degrading human madness called war. Also no one knows the future we could be hit by a giant meteorite tomorrow, for example so much for immigration then...lol

Posted by: Trowbridge H. Ford 2.Mar.2010, 05:47 PM

Damit, security has just informed me of this gross violation of our vital secrets.

Every time Gus goes on a secret mission to Cuba, apparently to arrange some way of breaking the American embargo, he always gets high when he leaves, thinking that he has finally closed out the Cold War, starting to recall our past operations in very self-serrving ways.

Of course, he doesn't translate, as usual, what I suggested to Mariela, and if LeMay had bombed the coordinates I provided, no Cuban would have been killed because they were those of what is left of the Bay of Pigs. The mad bomber never checked such details, he just took off, and let fly.

Don't expect any improvements from Gus, as he still seems to be loaded, reminiscing about all the culture problems facing the Sami and the Swedes. The Jamtlander is already one of the world's forgotten.

Posted by: krigeren 16.Mar.2010, 10:23 PM

QUOTE (Blackman_for_Blondes @ 2.Mar.2010, 01:37 AM) *
"I agree that war is unlikely in Scandinavia, though. The future has already been determined, and there is no going back now."

I was in Jamaica last summer I tell you one thing you know when civil war (and I agree its usually a power struggle between the two top groups) is in the air you feel it smell it and its makes you afraid, its not nice..people here in Sweden are hopefully too civilised for that degrading human madness called war. Also no one knows the future we could be hit by a giant meteorite tomorrow, for example so much for immigration then...lol

Swedes have to realize they are dependent upon a large immigrant labor force for their future in terms of supporting the Welfare State.

I was at an ALMI meeting the other night for start up companies. Of the 50 or so people there maybe 4 were ethnic Swedes. The rapper Falafelmannen was there as well...

He shared many of the same thoughts I have...There are no jobs for the youth here so we have no choice but to start our own companies or leave, if you come from an immigrant background trebly so". The whole event was hosted by in large people with immigrant backgrounds.

Its clear that new companies and the new ideas that drive those companies are coming in large part from foreigners here. The Swedes are missing out...in a generation or two the foreigners will hold vast sums of wealth and in turn they will want eqv. power...the Californication of Sweden is alive and well ;-)

Posted by: mikmak 16.Mar.2010, 10:41 PM

QUOTE (krigeren @ 16.Mar.2010, 10:23 PM) *
The Swedes are missing out...in a generation or two the foreigners will hold vast sums of wealth and in turn they will want eqv. power...the Californication of Sweden is alive and well ;-)

In a generation or two they could hardly be considered "foreigners"...

Posted by: krigeren 17.Mar.2010, 06:05 AM

Are you not aware of the massive rift that exists between children born in Sweden to two immigrant parents and the rest of the group especially when the kids have dark skin?

Why would anyone feel they have to change their name to fit in?

I think if a famous ethnic Swede changes their name to a ethnic name Like "Nenad Holtvic" as part of a campaign to raise discrimination awareness it would help quite a bit...

I speak to Swedes all the time who openly admit their is prejudice, racism, exclusion in this country and its been that way for decades. Such issues need to be exposed, poked, prodded and let light shine on them until they are dead and gone.

Posted by: VikingHumpingWitch 17.Mar.2010, 10:43 AM

QUOTE (krigeren @ 28.Feb.2010, 11:36 PM) *
Primarily I want to see immigrants and minorities gaining positions of power within the society based upon their merit.

Erm well isn't that exactly what we have? I know immigrants who have good jobs in Sweden. They all have the merit of speaking good Swedish. If you can't speak good (not just fluent, but good) Swedish and haven't got a job then quite frankly, it's because you're lacking in the necessary merits.

If it's ok for you to hire "blacks and Arabs" ahead of Brits and Americans purely because you think the former have a bit more oomph in them then you really cannot comoplain that Swedish employers favour people who speak the fricking language over those who don't.

Posted by: Streja 17.Mar.2010, 10:56 AM

It will get better in the future. There is always a threat from Nazis but most Swedes are not like that. What they want to keep i Swedish culture and traditions. They want to have the end of the school year celebrations in church for instance. They want to raise the flag the 6th of June and celebrate Midsummer. They want to invite "foreigners" to this party but they are sometimes shy or reserved. They want foreigners to like something about Sweden.

Posted by: krigeren 17.Mar.2010, 12:45 PM

QUOTE (VikingHumpingWitch @ 17.Mar.2010, 10:43 AM) *
Erm well isn't that exactly what we have? I know immigrants who have good jobs in Sweden. They all have the merit of speaking good Swedish. If you can't speak good (not just fluent, but good) Swedish and haven't got a job then quite frankly, it's because you're lacking in the necessary merits.

If it's ok for you to hire "blacks and Arabs" ahead of Brits and Americans purely because you think the former have a bit more oomph in them then you really cannot comoplain that Swedish employers favour people who speak the fricking language over those who don't.

This is where it will change and the immigrants will change it...

Logic...

You work for an international company who sells products all over the world or has the intention to. The working language will be in most cases English.

Illogical...

You work for an international company in Sweden and you must speak Swedish to work there when the whole point of the company is to export products abroad. A company such as that wants a common language, i.e., the lingua franca of business...English...so everyone can communicate and participate. In fact...you want people who speak languages of the countries you are exporting too more so than there is a need for Swedish in those organizations. ..
...
Overall...even if one does go through the ropes of learning great Swedish and lands themselves a job in their vocation here..they end up in a company with Swedish managers and limited opportunities. Besides, Swedish professionals are poorly paid compared to UK/US/ETC..it seems the only option for immigrants here is to open their own businesses if they want to realize their dreams here...running their companies in the language of their choice.

Posted by: VikingHumpingWitch 17.Mar.2010, 01:26 PM

The thing you perhaps don't realise is that the vast majority of Sweden's trade is with other Nordic countries. Nordic languages are therefore more useful than English, much as we English speakers might find this incomprehensible and impossible to believe.

Sweden's job market is more limited than that of other countries, but it's still a market. If you have the skills needed you will find a job. If you don't, you won't. Same as everywhere else. It just so happens that one of the skills needed is good Swedish. If you don't have good Swedish then you put yourself in a very limited market position, which is fine, but don't then complain about where you've put yourself.

And ya know, anyone can learn Swedish. I have seen small children and people who are very, very stupid speaking fluent Swedish. It might take you longer and require more effort than someone else, but you can do it. There really are no excuses here.

Posted by: Streja 17.Mar.2010, 01:30 PM

krigeren, most Swedish multinationals already use English as their business language. What's your point?

It really depends on what the British/Canadian/American immigrant wants to work with. Plus if he wants to be able to follow the news, become friends with Swedes, learn the culture etc then he probably needs a little bit of Swedish.

Have you got anything against learning Swedish or using Swedish? I love my language and want to be able to use it in my own country. I also love English and use it on a daily basis. I also speak Spanish.

Posted by: Gustav- Fælbönnran 17.Mar.2010, 01:45 PM

QUOTE (Streja @ 17.Mar.2010, 01:30 PM) *
I also speak Spanish.

E-

Did you happen to catch my deft use of Spanish in my "The sun rose slowly over the Cayo Levisa..." story earlier in this thread? Not exactly textbook grammar and vocabulary, but I felt very multicultural for a moment there.

G.

Posted by: Streja 17.Mar.2010, 01:53 PM

Erhm, it was too long-winded so I decided not to finish reading it.

Posted by: Streja 17.Mar.2010, 01:58 PM

Ok read it now.

Funny.

Posted by: The Nine 17.Mar.2010, 07:20 PM

QUOTE (Furu @ 28.Feb.2010, 09:32 PM) *
This applies to any country in the world. The foreigner must become a part of the system rather trying to change the system.


There is a marked difference here. It is one thing to expect immigrant to come to Sweden with an open mind regarding cultural differences. It is absolutely correct that they should try to do this. How can you ever hope to intergate if you don't make an effort to respect another cultures ways? However, Furu makes an interesting statement relating to immigarnts being subserviant to 'the system' rather than trying to change it. I think that depends on the issue.

However, some issues transend national boundries and are not about a specific cultural difference. They are things that are BANG WRONG regardless of where you live in the world.
The person who is successful in applying for a job should be the best person for the job and not the best Swede for the job.

When you say The foreigner must become a part of the system rather trying to change the system. You may as well say 'Foreginers will work in McDonalds and clean our houses until we decide differently.' Most European countries view Sweden as about 15 years behind when it comes to racial intergration. Does the state dictate that trained Doctors or engineering graduates MUST work as trash collectors? I am sure it does not but you only have to log in to the local to see tales of inteligent and educated people scraping a living in menial jobs.

It is one thing to make an effort to embrace a new culture. However, it is quite another to be a doctor or any other trained professional, and asked to shovel shit and be accused of 'not making an effort' if you refuse to do so.

I think Apartheid is a pretty strong word to use. However, within 6 months of living in Sweden I noticed something I have forever since refered to as 'passive racism' It's a bit like being a teenager and meeting your girlfriends well-to-do parents for the first time. They are very nice and polite to you, they feel obliged to make you feel welcome, but once you have left the house they will be doing all they can to ensure nothing becomes too permenant between you and their daughter. {no offense intended natch}

Posted by: Streja 17.Mar.2010, 07:22 PM

Yep, The Nine is right. Passive racism is quite common here and most Swedes are not aware of it and don't think about it because they don't have any problems themselves.

Posted by: Gustav- Fælbönnran 17.Mar.2010, 09:53 PM

QUOTE (Streja @ 17.Mar.2010, 01:53 PM) *
Erhm, it was too long-winded so I decided not to finish reading it.

Wait- are you implying that people don't read my little narratives because they are too long?!

I pour my heart and soul into those stories, hoping to bring a little merriment into the lives of the dozens of people who read the discussion boards at the Local every day. And I ask nothing in return.

You wound me, Señorita O.

That story took me a good five or six minutes to write. That is time that I will never get back. And I have written about twenty of those stories, so that is like...like...twenty times five...oh, whatever, the point is that I am not feeling the love here.

And where is the other Gus, when we need her? Busy with Diaper Duty, I guess. When does Mzungu get back? I could use some laughs.

Posted by: Furu 18.Mar.2010, 12:10 AM

QUOTE (The Nine @ 17.Mar.2010, 07:20 PM) *
Does the state dictate that trained Doctors or engineering graduates MUST work as trash collectors? I am sure it does not but you only have to log in to the local to see tales of inteligent and educated people scraping a living in menial jobs.

EU trained Doctors are allowed to work in Sweden. The licensing takes around 18 months to complete, one must speak the language though.

Posted by: krigeren 18.Mar.2010, 01:20 AM

QUOTE (Streja @ 17.Mar.2010, 01:30 PM) *
Have you got anything against learning Swedish or using Swedish? I love my language and want to be able to use it in my own country. I also love English and use it on a daily basis. I also speak Spanish.

I have no problems with learning Swedish or using Swedish. I just see how companies here use the language as a barrier to employ people who are talented and qualified except for the language...which they will pick up if given a chance to work around people.

This barrier is very real...take for example all of the Swedish women that have men from Africa that I am trying to find work. These men all came from very competitive work environments and all have great skills and qualifications...the women have now realized just how discriminatory their culture is which before they were dating a black man is something they were not so acutely aware of.

QUOTE (The Nine @ 17.Mar.2010, 07:20 PM) *
There is a marked difference here. It is one thing to expect immigrant to come to Sweden with an open mind regarding cultural differences. It is absolutely correct that they should try to do this. How can you ever hope to intergate if you don't make an effort to respect another cultures ways? However, Furu makes an interesting statement relating to immigarnts being subserviant to 'the system' rather than trying to change it. I think that depends on the issue.

However, some issues transend national boundries and are not about a specific cultural difference. They are things that are BANG WRONG regardless of where you live in the world.
The person who is successful in applying for a job should be the best person for the job and not the best Swede for the job.

When you say The foreigner must become a part of the system rather trying to change the system. You may as well say 'Foreginers will work in McDonalds and clean our houses until we decide differently.' Most European countries view Sweden as about 15 years behind when it comes to racial intergration. Does the state dictate that trained Doctors or engineering graduates MUST work as trash collectors? I am sure it does not but you only have to log in to the local to see tales of inteligent and educated people scraping a living in menial jobs.

It is one thing to make an effort to embrace a new culture. However, it is quite another to be a doctor or any other trained professional, and asked to shovel shit and be accused of 'not making an effort' if you refuse to do so.

I think Apartheid is a pretty strong word to use. However, within 6 months of living in Sweden I noticed something I have forever since refered to as 'passive racism' It's a bit like being a teenager and meeting your girlfriends well-to-do parents for the first time. They are very nice and polite to you, they feel obliged to make you feel welcome, but once you have left the house they will be doing all they can to ensure nothing becomes too permanent between you and their daughter. {no offense intended natch}

Passive racism is racism...Swedish style racism is the most difficult type of racism to combat because largely it has been disguised. The Socialist Democrats are not starting to publicly display that racism but they are just the tip of the iceberg.

Secondly...I wholeheartedly agree with your rebuttal...the thought that immigrants must conform to the system is ridiculous...

When people move to other immigrant cultures they are allowed to bring with and retain their cultural identity. In fact, their host nations often recognize that their backgrounds add color and richness to the culture overall. Sweden as a nation state, one nation one people, has a narrow identity that it cannot and should not expect people from over 200 countries who live here to fit into...rather the immigrant should strive to add to it...

Fitting in within Sweden means trying to become "Swedish" well the Swedes have you beat there. Celebrate the differences and live life on your own terms...integration practically speaking in Sweden is a failed concept...

I beleive the table should be turned and instead all Swedes should go through an integration program of their own learning how to accept immigrants into their business and personal lives...

Posted by: Furu 18.Mar.2010, 01:32 AM

Did Sweden choose immigrants or the immigrants choose Sweden.

Posted by: krigeren 18.Mar.2010, 02:18 AM

Thats a mixed bag. Many ended up here as asylum seekers so in some cases Sweden chose them. In other cases people willingly settled here.

I think I see where you are going with this...

I do not believe immigrants should integrate if integration means fitting in. For immigrants to fit into Sweden under the pre-conceived notions of people who live here is limiting and degrading.

Rather...immigrants should expand what Sweden already is by contributing...contributing from the context of owning their own identity their own self and deriving benefit for Sweden and themselves by such actions.

Posted by: Furu 18.Mar.2010, 02:34 AM

So will it be correct to state that people who choose Sweden should not complain, but people who Sweden chooses should get equal opportunities.

What refugees are you referring here.

1. Assigned through UNHCR system.

2. One who show up in Sweden and apply for Asylum.

Posted by: krigeren 18.Mar.2010, 03:24 AM

People have the right to complain. Immigrants who come here have the right to change the system just as anyone else does. Power rests in the hand of the individual to drive their own destiny.

Your way of thinking limits dialogue, expression, and overall thought on the matter is limiting. It seems you beleive the power of the status quo rests in the hands of some collective body...when..to reiterate it rests in the hands of each one of us.

The movements in Sweden to disrupt the society for its own benefit in terms of moving from a homogeneous Sweden 1.0 to a multi cultural Sweden 2.0 is well underway. Sweden is an export oriented society...such societies should mirror their client base...therefore Sweden will benefit from being a multicultural society.

Today these are the largest export markets for Sweden.

Germany 10.4%, Norway 9.5%, Denmark 7.4%, UK 7.3%, US 6.6%, Finland 6.3%, Netherlands 5.1%, France 4.9%, Belgium 4.4%.

A previous poster said..well most of our exports are to Nordic countries...well in large part thats true...if you want to maintain those markets and not add others thats short sighted. Rather I say expand your horizons..become agile..compete in other markets..in the Middle East, in Russia, Asia...etc...

Sweden has the infrastructure (highly experienced in the industrialization process) and resources (immigrants from 200 nations) to do it...the problem is it does not have the mentality and that is what needs to change.

Posted by: VikingHumpingWitch 18.Mar.2010, 12:11 PM

But you find me a Swede under 50 who doesn't speak at least reasonable English, and I think it's fair to assume that any Swede who is required to speak business English at work will have a high level of competency in the language. They will also have perfect Swedish. That means they have a higher level of merit than a native English speaker with little or no Swedish. Obviously the Swede's going to get the job.

What are you suggesting that Sweden does here? Employing people who can only speak to half your client base is going to improve trade?

Posted by: krigeren 18.Mar.2010, 12:52 PM

I think you are looking at the problem with a bit of a narrow mind...

Much more important than language barriers is the need for immigrants here to find work that matches their educational background.

Since Swedish companies won't hire them the immigrants need to develop and build strong immigrant networks and support systems here.

In an globalized world Sweden is placing way too high a value on its culture and language...a culture and language that most immigrants here really don't have such high opinions of. It would be different if Sweden took an approach like Finland and basically only opened its doors for business and not immigrants in general. However, Sweden has become a multi cultural country in a very few short decades...and its quite impossible for Sweden to do anything other than embrace it.

If Swedes, particularly business owners, dont start figuring out how to use the immigrants as a resource, or the immigrants do not receive more opportunity...well don't blame me when some disgruntled guy from some war zone applies his skills making car bombs to Sweden...the longer that Swedes exclude people from participating in the society the greater chance of catastrophic events will happen...and the continuation and spread of mini mafias, etc...

I mean...those gangs roaming Sweden jacking airbags, computers, etc are not making any real money doing it and it ends up being about survival...those same people would most likely gladly accept a decent 9 to 5 job and probably give up their life of crime.

Posted by: VikingHumpingWitch 18.Mar.2010, 01:04 PM

What is the Finnish approach?

As for the rest of it, well. I'm from London, we speak English there and we have a lot of foreign residents, always have. Some, those with useful skills, find work. Others don't, and either go home or hang about robbing people. We also have a large scale problem with gangs of professional criminals from foreign countries, who (like any good entrepreneur) prefer to place themselves in a larger market. We have been known to experience the odd bomb from time to time. None of what you suggest is exclusive to Sweden - in fact the key difference I see is that there's much less of it here.

Swedish employers are not obliged to give jobs to immigrants who don't have the necessary skills. Just because you're foreign doesn't mean I have to like you - it certainly doesn't mean I have to give you a job.

Posted by: Streja 18.Mar.2010, 01:06 PM

But it would be good if they would when the applicants have the necessary skills. Sometimes the applicants do have the skills and don't get a chance.

Posted by: krigeren 18.Mar.2010, 01:13 PM

QUOTE (VikingHumpingWitch @ 18.Mar.2010, 01:04 PM) *
What is the Finnish approach?

As for the rest of it, well. I'm from London, we speak English there and we have a lot of foreign residents, always have. Some, those with useful skills, find work. Others don't, and either go home or hang about robbing people. We also have a large scale problem with gangs of professional criminals from foreign countries, who (like any good entrepreneur) prefer to place themselves in a larger market. We have been known to experience the odd bomb from time to time. None of what you suggest is exclusive to Sweden - in fact the key difference I see is that there's much less of it here.

Swedish employers are not obliged to give jobs to immigrants who don't have the necessary skills. Just because you're foreign doesn't mean I have to like you - it certainly doesn't mean I have to give you a job.


There are not many immigrants in Finland so not so many problems with immigrants.

Your attitude about Swedish employers not being obliged...Swedish employers are obliged to do many things..the unions and laws deem it so...

I beleive that if immigrants in Sweden united, just 10% of the 20% or 90,000 that they could via peaceful protests, campaigning, networking could very well have similar power as the unions do and force employers to hire immigrants just as the unions force employers to the bargaining table. Their is such polarization regarding this issue it seems the only path for immigrants to go.

Posted by: Freja 18.Mar.2010, 01:18 PM

Krigern,

Albeit there is some merit to your observations and ambitions to progress things the way you spin and frame it in WE (the immigrants) against YOU (the native Swedes) is unfortunately cancelling any positive and constructive power in your posts.

You have quite clearly in these forums stated that you 1) don't see any need to learn Swedish 2) you don't want to interact with Swedes 3) you don't want your family to have any more integration with society or local community that absolutely necessary 4) you don't like (m)any aspects of the country/culture/people.

As a result your comments reads like a manifesto of someone who is trying to invade the country stealth wise with an ambition to change it, but only to suit your needs. It comes across, despite some good observations and suggestions, as The Big Ego Project. You have no interest in progressing the country. Your interest is only to change things to progress you, and you hope to rally as many people as possible to your cause, the WEs, against the YOUs.

The most nonsensical of your arguments are those against the Swedish language. I no country in the world could you chart a successful path without a good enough command in the local language. And there are some obvious, for most, reasons for that. Sure, set up your own export business and employ people that have poor command of the Swedish language and see how that goes, if you belive in it. And, fair enough, I can see situations it could work, but those are exeptions. What's your credentials in the export sector? Why do you think you are an authority on the Swedish export sector, a group of companies that are, and have been for a long time, leaders in their industries just thanks to them being incredibly sucessful exporters.

Your project of trying to dismantle the Swedish language is meaningless. Instead, learn it -I've seen in this thread, at last, you are saying you could - so that you can participate in debates and argue your ideas where they get heard and count instead. And if you really have a genuine interest in progressing our country drop the whole WE against YOU demagoguery and show us you can appreciate this to be a common project that where the interest of the WEs and the YOUs align. Because it does!

Your WE and YOU stance unfortunately generates and feeds the dark sentiments of racism/discrimination and reversed-racism/discrimination in an unfortunate way.

And that is my biggest problem with your posts. You deploy the same argument and tactics as those you set out to critisise.

I do agree with you that Sweden needs to get much better at making sure the immigrants/expats that gets here get into the workforce/entrepreneurial sector much fast and much easier. Immigrants/expats, on the other hand, need to learn much quicker how the Swedish model works and appreciating the obligations that comes with all those free-bees they have been offered.

Posted by: VikingHumpingWitch 18.Mar.2010, 01:36 PM

QUOTE (krigeren @ 18.Mar.2010, 01:13 PM) *
There are not many immigrants in Finland so not so many problems with immigrants.

Your attitude about Swedish employers not being obliged...Swedish employers are obliged to do many things..the unions and laws deem it so...

I beleive that if immigrants in Sweden united, just 10% of the 20% or 90,000 that they could via peaceful protests, campaigning, networking could very well have similar power as the unions do and force employers to hire immigrants just as the unions force employers to the bargaining table. Their is such polarization regarding this issue it seems the only path for immigrants to go.


So Finland's solution to immigrant integration is not have many immigrants. I'm not sure kicking immigrants out of Sweden will actually improve their opportunities for work in Sweden.

Swedish employers are obliged to do many things. Employing unsuitable people just because they're foreign is not one of them. Nor should it be, ever, anywhere in the world. Employers should be free to select the person they think will best do the job and fit into the organisation. If that's a Swede because the Swede speaks Swedish, and the job is in Sweden with a Swedish speaking workforce, that's fine. Discrimination is when a person is not given a job just because they aren't Swedish. That is already not allowed.

I would want no part in any campaign that forces companies to hire people on the basis of their nationality, and can honestly say hats off, that's the most ridiculous suggestion I have ever seen on this forum.

Posted by: krigeren 18.Mar.2010, 01:47 PM

QUOTE (Freja @ 18.Mar.2010, 01:18 PM) *
Krigern,

Albeit there is some merit to your observations and ambitions to progress things the way you spin and frame it in WE (the immigrants) against YOU (the native Swedes) is unfortunately cancelling any positive and constructive power in your posts.

You have quite clearly in these forums stated that you 1) don't see any need to learn Swedish 2) you don't want to interact with Swedes 3) you don't want your family to have any more integration with society or local community that absolutely necessary 4) you don't like (m)any aspects of the country/culture/people.

As a result your comments reads like a manifesto of someone who is trying to invade the country stealth wise with an ambition to change it, but only to suit your needs. It comes across, despite some good observations and suggestions, as The Big Ego Project. You have no interest in progressing the country. Your interest is only to change things to progress you, and you hope to rally as many people as possible to your cause, the WEs, against the YOUs.

The most nonsensical of your arguments are those against the Swedish language. I no country in the world could you chart a successful path without a good enough command in the local language. And there are some obvious, for most, reasons for that. Sure, set up your own export business and employ people that have poor command of the Swedish language and see how that goes, if you belive in it. And, fair enough, I can see situations it could work, but those are exeptions. What's your credentials in the export sector? Why do you think you are an authority on the Swedish export sector, a group of companies that are, and have been for a long time, leaders in their industries just thanks to them being incredibly sucessful exporters.

Your project of trying to dismantle the Swedish language is meaningless. Instead, learn it -I've seen in this thread, at last, you are saying you could - so that you can participate in debates and argue your ideas where they get heard and count instead. And if you really have a genuine interest in progressing our country drop the whole WE against YOU demagoguery and show us you can appreciate this to be a common project that where the interest of the WEs and the YOUs align. Because it does!

Your WE and YOU stance unfortunately generates and feeds the dark sentiments of racism/discrimination and reversed-racism/discrimination in an unfortunate way.

And that is my biggest problem with your posts. You deploy the same argument and tactics as those you set out to critisise.

I do agree with you that Sweden needs to get much better at making sure the immigrants/expats that gets here get into the workforce/entrepreneurial sector much fast and much easier. Immigrants/expats, on the other hand, need to learn much quicker how the Swedish model works and appreciating the obligations that comes with all those free-bees they have been offered.


I never made it an us vs. them issue. The society here polarized the immigration issue long before I came around. This issue is not about me or my ego its about 100's of thousands of people in Sweden who are facing continued and passive racism and discrimination in their lives.

In many of my posts I have stated how Swedes and immigrants can work together for the benefit of both. You are just being selective..but if they can't work together (as seems to be the case in society..then they have no choice but to work apart).

I am not trying to dismantle Swedish..globalization is doing that job...honestly..Sweden is probably doing more to dismantle Swedish than anything else...the labor market here for youth causes many of them to be resentful of the society and many are looking for something new and better.

There is nothing egotistical about wanting to live life the way one wants to..its called freedom. There are many countries in the world where immigrants may not speak the local language and find success. For example, in south Florida there are millions of people who speak all day in Spanish and there are 100's of thousands who rarely speak English and those people are rich and poor, happy and sad..a full society within a society. There are other nations that are bi-lingual.

Take for example Sweden...change only comes in terms of a language decision due to Sweeping circumstances. Perhaps, Sweden in a generation will be under that same pressure. However, I doubt the language will be English..I beleive it will be Arabic...and I really don't beleive that's a bad thing as in a globalized world speaking a world language can never hurt.

Look its fine to be frustrated but don't channel your frustration on me take it out somewhere else.

Posted by: krigeren 18.Mar.2010, 01:56 PM

QUOTE (VikingHumpingWitch @ 18.Mar.2010, 01:36 PM) *
I would want no part in any campaign that forces companies to hire people on the basis of their nationality, and can honestly say hats off, that's the most ridiculous suggestion I have ever seen on this forum.


That is basically what affirmative action was in America. It was about giving minorities opportunities within the labor market. I beleive in Sweden that same policy is desperately needed here.

Without affirmative action in America they would have never elected a black president. Affirmative action was the winding down of a civil rights movement that took place over many decades in the US and overall was very positive for the country.

I think Sweden needs a civil rights movement and the society overall would benefit from it, including affirmative action. I am not talking about staffing of unqualified people I am talking about staffing an ethnic minority over the ethnic majority all things being equal...because Sweden desperately needs that as there are just too many stories of minorities being excluded from the job market here for no good reason other than the color of their skin or their last name.

There are several facts that point to this such as people changing their names to sound more Swedish so they have better job prospects...that there alone clearly identifies a level of xenophobia in the society that is unacceptable.

Posted by: Lt. Gonville Bromhead 18.Mar.2010, 01:58 PM

Think you talk a load of shite, mate.

Posted by: VikingHumpingWitch 18.Mar.2010, 02:01 PM

I think you need to make a distinction between immigrants who can't get a job because of their name or race or nationality and immigrants who can't get a job because they don't speak Swedish. This will help you distinguish between discrimination and market forces.

Posted by: Freja 18.Mar.2010, 02:14 PM

QUOTE (krigeren @ 18.Mar.2010, 12:47 PM) *
I never made it an us vs. them issue.

Yes you do. You just don't see it, or understand it.

QUOTE (krigeren @ 18.Mar.2010, 12:47 PM) *
I am not trying to dismantle Swedish..globalization is doing that job...honestly..Sweden is probably doing more to dismantle Swedish than anything else...the labor market here for youth causes many of them to be resentful of the society and many are looking for something new and better.

Facts and reality are against you, now again. More people than ever before in the history of mankind speak Swedish today.

QUOTE (krigeren @ 18.Mar.2010, 12:47 PM) *
Look its fine to be frustrated but don't channel your frustration on me take it out somewhere else.

I think it is only fine to be frustrated to a certian extent. It will harm you if it is severe and long-term. Something that your many posts, and threads in which you keep arguing the same things over and over and over again, and more and more and more spirited/desperatly indicates that you could suffer from.

And most, not all, of them are nonsense.

Posted by: krigeren 18.Mar.2010, 04:31 PM

QUOTE (Freja @ 18.Mar.2010, 02:14 PM) *
Yes you do. You just don't see it, or understand it.

Facts and reality are against you, now again. More people than ever before in the history of mankind speak Swedish today.

I think it is only fine to be frustrated to a certian extent. It will harm you if it is severe and long-term. Something that your many posts, and threads in which you keep arguing the same things over and over and over again, and more and more and more spirited/desperatly indicates that you could suffer from.

And most, not all, of them are nonsense.


Blah, Blah, we disagree so what? I could stoop to personal attacks on you but I will refrain from doing so..I don't need to dig in the dirt to prove a point.

Regarding the language...more people speak English than ever before, more people speak Arabic than ever before. Look at it in a different context...name another country of 9 million or so that changed the demographics of the population in 20 years from being homogeneous to being so diverse? Think about other trends...Look at America now, what would someone say if Arkansas said, well we are going to only speak German here they would laugh it off. Yes, we have Louisiana where they speak French and English and thats great. However, how long do you think it will be, before the first country in Europe adopts another EU language as the primary language?? When EU nations joined the EU they started a trend where the likely outcome will be a supra nation state with just a handful of common languages and the rest will die out.

Posted by: Streja 18.Mar.2010, 04:32 PM

Catalonia.

Posted by: jack sprat 18.Mar.2010, 04:57 PM

Meaning what precisely?
You won't find many people in Catalonia who don't speak Castilian Spanish,(and quite often need
to),,or in Basque country,or Galicia or Valencia or other areas with traditional languages,...,...and they'd be fools if they didn't,regardless of whether or not they ever get full independance.
It's simply swimming against an inevitable tide...,better to go with it and learn something much more useful..

Posted by: Freja 18.Mar.2010, 05:00 PM

QUOTE (krigeren @ 18.Mar.2010, 03:31 PM) *
Blah, Blah, we disagree so what? I could stoop to personal attacks on you but I will refrain from doing so..

Much appreciated and a welcome improvement from your previous post. I will return the favour.

On your other point, change is good! And yes, EU will off course change the face of Europe and her constituent countries for ever. Will the Swedish, or other small, languages disappear in the process of this happening, or the globalisation process? Most likely not.

Why? Humans have always applied an enormous value to diversity and the utility of choice. A cultural and linguistically homogenous Europe would be counter to this desire for diversity and choice, which the multitude of Europe offers her citizens. This diversity and choices of cultures, languages and lifestyles cater for our different preferences for how and where we want to live our lives, and there is ENORMOUS value in this for us Europeans. I would allege that the value of this is so great it simply can't be over estimated even. Our languages are mere one manifestation of is.

Funnily enough, the EU project has two very distinct but also contrary trends to it: more integration and alignment AND more internal separation.

This is off course an expression of making Europe more integrated by aligning and integrate more with each other, for economic, political and perhaps even cultural reasons. But, the opposing force, the separation, is off course an expression of our desire not only to keep, but perhaps even to strengthen, our local/regional/national cultures and identities. None of us want to be 'blanded down', or 'wall-marted down" perhaps.

The value that is generated by integration is that it offers us more choice (freer movement of products, capital and labour) and the value related to separation forces is related to the maintained/increased diversity.

Nope, I don't belive that globalisation or EU will water down our local/regional/national cultures in the long run. Sweden is a good example of that. It has never been as diverse as it is now. And personally I don't think there is anything threatening to our national culture in that. I think it is enriching.

Posted by: Streja 18.Mar.2010, 08:47 PM

QUOTE (jack sprat @ 18.Mar.2010, 04:57 PM) *
Meaning what precisely?
You won't find many people in Catalonia who don't speak Castilian Spanish,(and quite often need
to),,or in Basque country,or Galicia or Valencia or other areas with traditional languages,...,...and they'd be fools if they didn't,regardless of whether or not they ever get full independance.
It's simply swimming against an inevitable tide...,better to go with it and learn something much more useful..



I just mentioned a country with 9 million that has had a huge influx of immigrants.

Jack, I was recently there and there are a lot of Catalans that are working for independence now, staging referendums. They are of course useless as only the people who decide to vote do, and they are probably going to be the ones who say yes.

Catalan is the language they speak at home, and it will not disappear.

Posted by: planet.sweden 18.Mar.2010, 09:18 PM

No Sweden is not an apartheid point, and its both silly to try and compare it to one and insulting to those who have lived under real apartheid.

You say : "I beleive all immigrants and minorities here in Sweden need to rally together to fight for their share of the power in this country. Until we have seats at every level of government, every level of business, we will not truly be able to set our own course in this country"

I say : Wouldn't it be just easier for everyone if you simply went home? You're clearly unhappy. You pointedly don't mention where you're from.

Swedes as you may or may not have noticed have created a rather successful country. This compares sharply with the many failed countries in the world. Part of the reason for this is Swedes don't go in for the sort of hyperbolic nonsense espoused by you. The last thing this successful country needs is people like you trying to whip up resentments and a belief that immigrants have a right to grab power. They don't. They had a right to grab power back home. Having made the trip to Sweden they have a duty to knuckle down and fit in with the Swedish way.

Don't like it? Ship out again

N.B the last foreign guy I heard ranting about "discrimination" in Sweden revealed under cross examination that what was really bugging him (and his prima facie evidence for discrimination) was that the Swedish girls he chased weren't interested in him. Very Mandela I must say. Not. Sound familiar to you?

Posted by: nicecupoftea 18.Mar.2010, 09:33 PM

QUOTE (planet.sweden @ 18.Mar.2010, 09:18 PM) *
I say : Wouldn't it be just easier for everyone if you simply went home? You're clearly unhappy. You pointedly don't mention where you're from.

Having made the trip to Sweden they have a duty to knuckle down and fit in with the Swedish way.

Don't like it? Ship out again

N.B the last foreign guy I heard ranting about "discrimination" in Sweden revealed under cross examination that what was really bugging him (and his prima facie evidence for discrimination) was that the Swedish girls he chased weren't interested in him. Very Mandela I must say. Not. Sound familiar to you?

your come up with the same arguments and words as every other ignorant racist. asshat.

Posted by: krigeren 18.Mar.2010, 10:31 PM

QUOTE (planet.sweden @ 18.Mar.2010, 09:18 PM) *
No Sweden is not an apartheid point, and its both silly to try and compare it to one and insulting to those who have lived under real apartheid.

You say : "I beleive all immigrants and minorities here in Sweden need to rally together to fight for their share of the power in this country. Until we have seats at every level of government, every level of business, we will not truly be able to set our own course in this country"

I say : Wouldn't it be just easier for everyone if you simply went home? You're clearly unhappy. You pointedly don't mention where you're from.

Swedes as you may or may not have noticed have created a rather successful country. This compares sharply with the many failed countries in the world. Part of the reason for this is Swedes don't go in for the sort of hyperbolic nonsense espoused by you. The last thing this successful country needs is people like you trying to whip up resentments and a belief that immigrants have a right to grab power. They don't. They had a right to grab power back home. Having made the trip to Sweden they have a duty to knuckle down and fit in with the Swedish way.

Don't like it? Ship out again

N.B the last foreign guy I heard ranting about "discrimination" in Sweden revealed under cross examination that what was really bugging him (and his prima facie evidence for discrimination) was that the Swedish girls he chased weren't interested in him. Very Mandela I must say. Not. Sound familiar to you?

Its your mindset that is responsible for the division in this country...that mentality is like a finger that can't stop pulling at the scab. Its that self centered sense of propriety and arrogance that will be the downfall of people like you and your ilk. You think you create an impenetrable bastion and then all of a sudden it collapses around you and it comes to pass that your fortress was just a house of cards. This is what happened in South Africa, The Southern United States, and it is what will happen here.

Lets break Apartheid down into its simplest terms...

"The aim of apartheid was to separate all the people of South Africa into small independent nations. But the National Party government did not want to spend a lot of money on this project. Also, they wanted to keep most of South Africa's land for white people. Especially the rich parts of the country, like the gold mines of Johannesburg. They also wanted black people to work in these mines for little money. But they did not want black men's families to live in the same area."

Although Sweden does not practice de facto apartheid in does practice de jure apartheid. We see blatant examples of this in schools where the majority are immigrants with barely any ethnic Swedes, how are those children supposed to integrate? Walk into companies in Sweden and look at the rosters of people working there...who occupies the white collar jobs and management positions...show me the diversity among those ranks...and I will reject my notion of Sweden being an apartheid state...but the fact remains is you can't show me that diversity in terms of any meaningful numbers then as I said...Sweden is a apartheid state informally...

We need studies that demonstrate numbers of minorities in the workplace and the parity between immigrants and ethnic Swedes in terms of workforce integration. Minorities must band together and fight the power just as Public Enemy and Chuck D said...because that is the paradigm we are living under now in Sweden.

Posted by: VikingHumpingWitch 19.Mar.2010, 10:55 AM

Do you have any statistics on ethnic minority representation at senior executive level in any other EU country? The UK doesn't have many black CEOs or Cabinet Ministers either. I think under your definition, every country in the world is an apartheid state.

Posted by: 7 19.Mar.2010, 11:33 AM

QUOTE (krigeren @ 1.Mar.2010, 11:00 AM) *
Their is de facto apartheid and de jure apartheid.

I say that Sweden practices de jure apartheid.

it's rather evident that you're not truly capable of comprehending the words you like to banter about when you amusingly try to employ intellectual-sounding terms to somehow lend credibility to moronic "theories"

seriously, if you can't distinguish between their and there you really ought to avoid terms like de jure (and de facto for that matter.) that you exploit and abuse the term apartheid might be popularly acceptable to add sensational boost to an otherwise drippy manifesto but it's just another blah blah word people overuse ineffectively.

Posted by: jack sprat 19.Mar.2010, 06:10 PM

QUOTE (Streja @ 18.Mar.2010, 09:47 PM) *
I just mentioned a country with 9 million that has had a huge influx of immigrants.

Jack, I was recently there and there are a lot of Catalans that are working for independence now, staging referendums. They are of course useless as only the people who decide to vote do, and they are probably going to be the ones who say yes.

Catalan is the language they speak at home, and it will not disappear.


Last I heard Catalonia was still part of Spain, NOT a country in its own right.
Yes they would like independance,then so would the Basques,Spanish N.Africa,Canaries and possibly Galicia and others, but in the long term I doubt if it is such a good idea,and would mean the virtual break up of Spain.
There is a long history of bad blood between Catalonia and the Castilian region,likewise with the Basque region which goes way back, many years,...long before the civil war and still continues in some ways today.
It is only a few year ago that the Govt decided to scrap the regional prefixed vehicle reg.plates,partly because lots of ppl.were getting their cars trashed, when visiting those sometimes less than friendly areas.

Posted by: Streja 20.Mar.2010, 02:04 PM

I wouldn't say it's true for the Canaries. Those are extreme parties with no real power.

The regions of Spain have more independence than American states so it's an ok comparison, plus the population size is similar to that of Sweden. Plus they also push the language for integration.

Posted by: brissiedan 21.Mar.2010, 01:11 AM

Krigeren, you have confused your argument by wrong terminology. SA had 'de jure' segregation, and your claim is that Sweden has 'de facto' segregation, though your statements use the opposite terms.

Wikipedia quote follows:
"When discussing a legal situation, de jure designates what the law says, while de facto designates action of what happens in practice. ... The term de facto may be used when there is no relevant law or standard, but a common and well established practice that is considered the accepted norm.
...
'De facto' racial discrimination or segregation in the USA during the fifties and sixties was simply discrimination that was not segregation by law (de jure)."

These days the majority of Swedish couples are in a 'de facto' relationship, i.e. NOT legally sanctioned. So a marriage would be a 'de jure' relationship. Your confusion might stem from the fact that the Swedish government has gone further in giving legal rights to sambo (de facto) relationships than most other countries.

I will not weigh in on the main debate of this thread as I can see both sides of the coin. I agree that there is a strong element of well concealed bias against perceived 'outsiders'. But I doubt that you can legislate away people's prejudices. Xenophobia grows out of fear, so to my mind that fear is the point that needs to be addressed.

Posted by: astrogenic 21.Mar.2010, 02:08 AM

QUOTE (brissiedan @ 21.Mar.2010, 02:11 AM) *
Xenophobia grows out of fear, so to my mind that fear is the point that needs to be addressed.

So are ALL forms of "politics".

"Politics" are conducted between people who "fear" that, without their political participation, things would be different from what they want the society to be.

Their motivation to participate in political activities may be to change certain things in society or to keep things as they want them to be in the face of outside socioeconomic and politcal forces.

"Xenophobia" is thus merely a political expression; you can't remove it from people wherever you are or whenever you look at in human history. It is also a poltiical issue for which people can debate and argue about what to do with "foreigners" - to see them in a negative light against the society we already have or, if not, then how could "foreigners" could be considered positively ?

Ultimately, as with many other political arguments, there is NO "right" or "wrong" answers with "xenophobia" or "foregners". There is only one's "preference" towards one of xenophobia or not and, until when people of all political persuasions understand this fact, then there can only be escalation on the issue of xenophobia, even genocide as in Serbia, and not to a peaceful, civilised "solution" to it.

"Solution" to the issue of xenophobia, in this sense, could be understood as an argument which can persuade and create consensus between people of different political persuasions about what to do with "foreigners".

Posted by: The Nine 21.Mar.2010, 11:16 AM

QUOTE (VikingHumpingWitch @ 19.Mar.2010, 10:55 AM) *
Do you have any statistics on ethnic minority representation at senior executive level in any other EU country? The UK doesn't have many black CEOs or Cabinet Ministers either. I think under your definition, every country in the world is an apartheid state.

But that is the thing, it does have a lot of immigrant representation in higher office. They are not always public roles but high achievment never the less. Only recently there was a photo in one of the Sunday papers with all the ethnic members of parliment. It was around 40 MPs, a pretty representative amount. You have had people like Bill Morris rise to the lofty echelons of President of the Trades Uniion Congress. There have been numerous ethic appointments to the House of Lords. Something you never saw 20 years ago, black barristers, judges, and even conservative party candidates. You are correct to say there are no black cabinet ministers but that will surely change in the next few years. The point is, black and ethnic people are already serving as junior ministers in government. It is only a matter of time before one of them makes it to senior minister. The Uk has a represetative amount of ethnic people in public office.

Posted by: VikingHumpingWitch 21.Mar.2010, 11:30 AM

Actually the UK has a huge amount of ethnic minorities (which term incidentally is not interchangeable with the word immigrant) in public office. Cleaners, receptionists, junior clerks etc. Loads, tons. It's just like ¨with women, the higher up you go the fewer you find. 40 MPs is about 6%, lower than the non-white British population percentage across the country. We have already had one black Cabinet Minister. I'm just pointing out that there aren't many ethnic minorities in senior posts in the UK, either in the public or private sector. "Not many" is not interchangeable with "none".

Doesn't make the UK an apartheid state any more than Sweden is one.

Posted by: Gustav- Fælbönnran 22.Mar.2010, 07:05 PM

Apartheid? Maybe we're not so hung up on ethnicity after all...

Fredrik Reinfeldt:

QUOTE
During the 2006 election, it was brought to attention that Reinfeldt's paternal great-grandfather, John Reinfeldt, was the illegitimate son of Emma Dorotea Reinfeld, a maid from Eckau in present-day Latvia, and John Hood, an African American circus director from New York.[55] Emma Dorotea Reinfeld later married the Swede Anders Karlsson, but her son John kept his mother's surname. The spelling was later changed to Reinfeldt.[2][55][56] He also has Italian ancestry, via his paternal grandmother, who was allegedly related to royals King Ferdinand IV of Naples and his queen, Marie Caroline of Austria.[56]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fredrik_Reinfeldt


Queen Silvia holds three nationalities, and the King is descended from a Frenchman.

Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)