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Swedish neutrality and Thatcher's view on it.

The iron lady and blonde interviewer

Streja
post 6.Mar.2012, 10:09 PM
Post #136
Joined: 10.Jul.2006

skåne, are you on the German version of The Local as well, asking them why they bought all that iron ore and why they killed all those Jews?

Please do and come back and tell us the result.
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Gamla Hälsingebock
post 6.Mar.2012, 10:18 PM
Post #137
Joined: 21.Dec.2006

There was no need for Sweden to limit supplies of anything to anybody!

Sweden had the right to sell it's materials regardless of what use they were put to, and to whom she pleased.

Why is it you do not mention neutral America selling supplies to Britain?...Or is your idea of morality only used to make the Swedish people look like criminals.

The Germans would say about America what you say/imply about Sweden.

War is hell, and Sweden did not start it...they walked a tightrope to survive, Britain wanted to invade Sweden for the iron ore too, naturally, that is never mentioned. angry.gif
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mångk
post 6.Mar.2012, 10:35 PM
Post #138
Joined: 27.Jul.2008

QUOTE (skane refugee @ 6.Mar.2012, 09:45 PM) *
Apologies for being late to the thread and for the length of the previous post(s)!! – just wanted to cover the key points and add sufficient data for casual readers ... (show full quote)

Here is an interesting link for you! Note it does not include data for Swedish bearing supplies and swedish owned local subsidaries for the periods of 1939 through to the beginning of 1941.

http://www.ehs.org.uk/ehs/conference2011/A...onFullPaper.pdf

Without Swedish owned bearings technology the UK would have suffered more during the war than Germany. Take note of the quantity of materials supplied to the UK it is more than just a tiny quantity.

The Swedish agreement to supply bearings was made around 1939. It was only Swedish manufactured or subsidary manufactured bearings that were 100% suitable for aircraft production. SKF had almost a monopoly on suitable bearings production in both Europe and the USA. The subsidary in the USA was one that was capable of supplying the requisite sized bearings for the UK.
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skane refugee
post 7.Mar.2012, 02:31 AM
Post #139
Joined: 14.May.2008

Many thanks for the link and constructive post ... read the (mercifully short :-) ) paper with interest.

It appears that Swedish Bearings exports (adjusting for relative prices) to German and occupied areas were roughly:
1940 3x total exports to allies, 1941 3x, 1942 4x

Note: that the substantial additional supplies to ‘neutrals’ not included above, likely made their way, at least in part, to the axis, given that the countries involved are like a roll-call of German WW2 sympathisers (Switzerland, Spain, Turkey, Argentina etc)

The paper notes that paid-for allied supplies were often not collected due to transport difficulties, citing the example of a large stockpile of bearings uncollected by Britain at the end of the war … export figures to the allies may be based on purchases rather than actual deliveries … in which case the supply bias towards the axis would be even more pronounced

Anyone who argues that those bearing supplies were ‘vital’ to the allied war effort, has to also conclude that they were 3 or 4 times as ‘vital’ to the axis war effort

In essence bearings were just another important bi-product of high grade Iron Ore … Allied difficulties stemmed primarily from being cut off from high grade Scandinavian Ore supplies in early 1940 …

More importantly, the quantities were noted ... and it appears that a grand total of 49,000 tons of material were exported to Britain from Sweden for 1941 to 1945 via the North Sea, and a further 864 tons of material by air freight 1942 to 1945 … giving a grand total of 50,000 tons

… compared to over 30 million tons of military grade Iron (50 million tons of Ore) alone, excluding bearings, bearing steel and other wartime supplies to Germany from Sweden

Therefore by tonnage, Sweden supplied well in excess of 600 times as much to Germany as to Britain … indeed Swedish wartime exports to Britain are little more than a rounding error, less than 0.2% of the equivalent German total by tonnage

Thank you for supplying the data to make the ‘tiny supply to the allies’ point more scientific ;o) … what should be the definition of tiny?! 0.02%?! ;o)

When Locallers state that Sweden ‘supplied both sides’ during the war a casual reader might be forgiven for thinking it was roughly equal or equivalent in some way … they are unlikely to think it’s 99.8/0.2
… perhaps as a courtesy in future, the ratio can be quoted to give a better idea ;o) ;o)
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Gamla Hälsingebock
post 7.Mar.2012, 03:30 AM
Post #140
Joined: 21.Dec.2006

For Sweden to supply Britain with supplies after the German occupation of Norway would be a miracle.

Sweden's export lanes were limited to the countries around the Baltic coasts, eg Germany.

Ships leaving Sweden via the Baltic (or western ports, no iron ore there) would have to travel along the coast of occupied Denmark (Skaggerak) and then pass along the northern coast of Germany to reach the North Sea and the English Channel, to reach Britain.

An impossible passage. Those waters were totally in the hands of the German Navy, Air Force, shore batteries, mine fields and submarines.

And yes, neutral Swedish ships have been torpedoed and sunk by Germany.
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skogsbo
post 7.Mar.2012, 07:20 AM
Post #141
Joined: 20.Sep.2011

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock @ 7.Mar.2012, 02:30 AM) *
Ships leaving Sweden via the Baltic (or western ports, no iron ore there) would have to travel along the coast of occupied Denmark (Skaggerak) and then pass along the northern ... (show full quote)

I would just like to point out that Britain is an Island and has coast on ALL sides, you don't have to sail through the channel to get to a port, there are 1 or 2 ports on the East Coast too wink.gif
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Rick Methven
post 7.Mar.2012, 08:08 AM
Post #142
Location: Linköping
Joined: 30.Nov.2005

Even though WW2 was in my lifetime, what is arguing about who did what and who did not 70 years later going to achieve?

Maggie is away with the fairies in a world of her own, and the vast majority of the people who made decisions on either side are pushing up the daisies or stoking the fires in hell. History is always written by the victor to maximise their victory and by the defeated to give reasons why they lost, be it war or sport, there will always be two conflicting accounts that will never agree.

The vast majority of people posting on this subject never lived through the war or suffered the aftermath of war, why continue a pissing contest to prove who has got the biggest dick when they are all the same size?
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skogsbo
post 7.Mar.2012, 08:18 AM
Post #143
Joined: 20.Sep.2011

QUOTE (Rick Methven @ 7.Mar.2012, 07:08 AM) *
to prove who has got the biggest dick when they are all the same size?

they are all big enough to fill a pram.
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Streja
post 7.Mar.2012, 10:29 AM
Post #144
Joined: 10.Jul.2006

I agree with Rick, very sensible words.
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*Trowbridge H. Ford*
post 7.Mar.2012, 10:48 AM
Post #145


I find this thread most expected under the circumstances, like really sending off the 'Iron Lady' during her last days in style - like what Holywood tried to do with the film about her. It's all too much ancient history when it just deals with the problems of WWII and Sweden's neutrality then.

I would have thought that some poster would have mentioned what Margaret Thatcher had done to statsminister Olof Palme when he tried to monitor Sweden's neutrality while trying to end the Iran-Iraq war - i.e., she saw, it seems, that MI6 supplied Captain Simon Hayward to the KMS team assessing the performance of Palme's bodyguards, and when they were nowhere to be seen, Hayward apparently assassinated him.

Some way to treat Sweden's neutrality!
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Gamla Hälsingebock
post 7.Mar.2012, 03:02 PM
Post #146
Joined: 21.Dec.2006

When Swedish neutrality is mentioned in a way that denigrates the Swedish people, I feel obliged to reply in their defense.

My Father, a neutral Swede, was torpedoed three times in WWI while serving on "British" ships!

I was born shortly before Hitler invaded Poland.

I will never start a thread about it.

This subject should be ended, and not brought up again...I would like that.

Hey Trow!...welcome back, we missed you. Glad to hear your wife is doing well.
GH
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Gamla Hälsingebock
post 7.Mar.2012, 03:48 PM
Post #147
Joined: 21.Dec.2006

QUOTE (skogsbo @ 7.Mar.2012, 07:20 AM) *
I would just like to point out that Britain is an Island and has coast on ALL sides, you don't have to sail through the channel to get to a port, there are 1 or 2 ports on the East Coast too wink.gif



As a geographical correction and mind you...nothing to do with the original topic! laugh.gif

Hey skogsbo!

Read again...you can reach the eastern cost of Britain via the North Sea...as I mentioned. wink.gif
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SimonDMontfort
post 7.Mar.2012, 04:29 PM
Post #148
Location: Stockholm county
Joined: 8.Feb.2011

Guys! Gals! WWII ended nearly 70 years ago (as pointed out earlier)
'Maggie' hasn't been UK prime minister for more than 20 years.

Please join us in the 21st century laugh.gif
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*Trowbridge H. Ford*
post 7.Mar.2012, 05:01 PM
Post #149


Right Simon.

Think of all the asteroids that scientists are predicting to hit the earth, ones which will destroy cities or continents - like the one on February 1, 2019, then that one which hit in either 2029 or 2036, then there is that monster one coming in 2040, and to top it all off, if there is still anything left, there is that one in 2082 which has two tries at the globe.

And think, up to now we know little more about such disasters than the asteroid which struck Russia in 1905, and the one which wiped out the dinasaurs millions of years ago after they had had a most impressive go on earth for 200,000,000 years.

And that's only the ones we know about. We could be blindsided by ones coming out from behind the sun.

Either there is a God and he is finally taking us into his sights or else this is the beginning of the biggest space race ever (take note JJ.) to deflect them away.

And I thought I had problems! Good luck gals and guys!
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skogsbo
post 7.Mar.2012, 05:09 PM
Post #150
Joined: 20.Sep.2011

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock @ 7.Mar.2012, 02:30 AM) *
and then pass along the northern coast of Germany to reach the North Sea and the English Channel, to reach Britain.

Apolgisies, but I took to mean from the above, that you pass through the channel to reach the UK.
I think a large amount sea traffic went into the North East and Scotland, often under the guise as fishing vessels, with British forces and Norwegian resistance training in the Cairngorms and other parts of Scotland, before sneaking over to Scandanavia.
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