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The Local _ Life in Sweden _ illegal alien voting rights

Posted by: Roger O. Thornhill 20.Feb.2007, 08:42 PM

Assume that you are an illegal immigrant in Sweden.

Should you have the right to vote in Swedish elections?

Posted by: Gle 20.Feb.2007, 08:45 PM

Obviously not.

Posted by: Guest 20.Feb.2007, 08:47 PM

If they pay income taxes perhaps it might be considered, but I doubt any illegal aliens pay income taxes in Sweden!

Of course not! Anyone who says otherwise has some issues.

Posted by: Pigeons Can't Fly Without Wings. 20.Feb.2007, 08:54 PM

QUOTE (And Now For Something Completely Different)
Assume that you are an illegal immigrant in Sweden.

Should you have the right to vote in Swedish elections?


Eeehh...NO!

Of course not!

Posted by: Cheryl Johnson 20.Feb.2007, 08:55 PM

Absolutely not! I am a Swedish-American and live in Southern California. I have lived here for many years and have seen how massive illegal immigration - open boarders can totally change the ethnic landscape. Sweden needs to take a very strong stand here and nip it in the bud quickly. I haven't been in Sweden for many years but I hear people who have make comments of Swedish people have brown eyes now and Sweden will no longer be a nordic country because it is being taken over and over populated with immigration. Swedish people are not having enough ethnic Swedish babies to populate the country, etc. We in America are trying to get our government to take control of the boarders and whenever we try to cut immigrant rights they hold a march waving the flags of their native country, like Mexico. One of our local high schools had the American flag ripped down and the Mexican flag put up with the American flag underneath upside down. We are having to learn Spanish so WE melt into the Latino community not them melt into the English speaking community. Sweden needs to take a good look at what is happening to America, take notes and don't copy us. Protect your country. Protect your culture. Protect your language. Protect your nordic women because all the black and brown men love the white skinned blue-eyed blond women. Putting your country on the auction block to prove what????? Giving your country away and opening it up for taken over to prove what????? Think twice!

Posted by: Roger O. Thornhill 20.Feb.2007, 09:04 PM

The question keeps popping up here in the US. There is another move in New York for illegals to vote in municipal elections.

Illegals want a greater say over the resources they use here, such as schools.

Would your answer in Sweden differ if the illegals wanted a greater say in how the schools they attend are run or the medical services they receive? (do illegals have the same rights to medical treatment as they do here is US?)

Posted by: Loulou 20.Feb.2007, 09:08 PM

QUOTE (Cheryl Johnson)
Absolutely not! I am a Swedish-American and live in Southern California. I have lived here for many years and have seen how massive illegal immigration - open boarders can totally change the ethnic landscape. Sweden needs to take a very strong stand here and nip it in the bud quickly. I haven't been in Sweden for many years but I hear people who have make comments of Swedish people have brown eyes now and Sweden will no longer be a nordic country because it is being taken over and over populated with immigration. Swedish people are not having enough ethnic Swedish babies to populate the country, etc. We in America are trying to get our government to take control of the boarders and whenever we try to cut immigrant rights they hold a march waving the flags of their native country, like Mexico. One of our local high schools had the American flag ripped down and the Mexican flag put up with the American flag underneath upside down. We are having to learn Spanish so WE melt into the Latino community not them melt into the English speaking community. Sweden needs to take a good look at what is happening to America, take notes and don't copy us. Protect your country. Protect your culture. Protect your language. Protect your nordic women because all the black and brown men love the white skinned blue-eyed blond women. Putting your country on the auction block to prove what????? Giving your country away and opening it up for taken over to prove what????? Think twice!


I really hope that you're being sarcastic. Sad that you are so biggoted and narrow minded if you're not.

Posted by: Gle 20.Feb.2007, 09:18 PM

QUOTE (And Now For Something Completely Different)
The question keeps popping up here in the US. There is another move in New York for illegals to vote in municipal elections.

Illegals want a greater say over the resources they use here, such as schools.

Would your answer in Sweden differ if the illegals wanted a greater say in how the schools they attend are run or the medical services they receive? (do illegals have the same rights to medical treatment as they do here is US?)


No the answer won't differ and illegals here don't have any rights regarding school or medical treatment (except emergencies obviously).

Posted by: Ezpen The Caveman 20.Feb.2007, 09:18 PM

QUOTE (And Now For Something Completely Different)
Assume that you are an illegal immigrant in Sweden.

Should you have the right to vote in Swedish elections?

laugh.gif What a stupid question!!

Posted by: Dev 20.Feb.2007, 09:19 PM

QUOTE
Absolutely not! I am a Swedish-American and live in Southern California. I have lived here for many years and have seen how massive illegal immigration - open boarders can totally change the ethnic landscape. Sweden needs to take a very strong stand here and nip it in the bud quickly. I haven't been in Sweden for many years but I hear people who have make comments of Swedish people have brown eyes now and Sweden will no longer be a nordic country because it is being taken over and over populated with immigration. Swedish people are not having enough ethnic Swedish babies to populate the country, etc. We in America are trying to get our government to take control of the boarders and whenever we try to cut immigrant rights they hold a march waving the flags of their native country, like Mexico. One of our local high schools had the American flag ripped down and the Mexican flag put up with the American flag underneath upside down. We are having to learn Spanish so WE melt into the Latino community not them melt into the English speaking community. Sweden needs to take a good look at what is happening to America, take notes and don't copy us. Protect your country. Protect your culture. Protect your language. Protect your nordic women because all the black and brown men love the white skinned blue-eyed blond women. Putting your country on the auction block to prove what????? Giving your country away and opening it up for taken over to prove what????? Think twice!


Hmm I was thinking America was built and is carried forward by immigrants from all over the world. Everyone in America is an immigrant except for Native Indians.

Posted by: Braderunner Rennuredarb 20.Feb.2007, 09:19 PM

QUOTE (And Now For Something Completely Different)
Assume that you are an illegal immigrant in Sweden.

Should you have the right to vote in Swedish elections?
No

You should be denied all forms of domestic support save emergency medical need and immediate food needs to before subsequent immediate deportation to the country of origin.

Posted by: FR 20.Feb.2007, 09:19 PM

QUOTE (And Now For Something Completely Different)
The question keeps popping up here in the US. There is another move in New York for illegals to vote in municipal elections.


Nonsense. One cannot vote in ANY election in the US unless one is a US citizen, born or naturalized.

Posted by: FR 20.Feb.2007, 09:20 PM

QUOTE (Loulou)
I really hope that you're being sarcastic. Sad that you are so biggoted and narrow minded if you're not.


No kidding. It's all about race, is it? :roll:

Posted by: FR 20.Feb.2007, 09:22 PM

QUOTE (.braderunner)
You should be denied all forms of domestic support save emergency medical need and immediate food needs to before subsequent immediate deportation to the country of origin.


If only that had happened to the first white people to hit North America. :roll:

Posted by: FR 20.Feb.2007, 09:26 PM

QUOTE (Dev)
Hmm I was thinking America was built and is carried forward by immigrants from all over the world. Everyone in America is an immigrant except for Native Indians.


Currently, less than 10% of residents, both permanent and temporary, of the USA are foreign-born. In 1965, the immigration laws were changed to allow people of darker skin shades in. This is why there is so much talk about the change in the ethnic landscape of the country. Before 1965, the US was reserved for whites with a grudging exception to a few of color.

Posted by: Ezpen The Caveman 20.Feb.2007, 09:27 PM

QUOTE (And Now For Something Completely Different)
The question keeps popping up here in the US. There is another move in New York for illegals to vote in municipal elections.

Illegals want a greater say over the resources they use here, such as schools.

Would your answer in Sweden differ if the illegals wanted a greater say in how the schools they attend are run or the medical services they receive? (do illegals have the same rights to medical treatment as they do here is US?)

Maybe we should let the kids vote too!?? The politicians could promise free lollipops at all schools etc...

Posted by: Braderunner Rennuredarb 20.Feb.2007, 09:29 PM

QUOTE (FR)
If only that had happened to the first white people to hit North America. :roll:
HA! Exactly! Then again...the situation was a little different - the Native Americans were not being expected to take care of the "settlers"...the settlers just killed them and took the land. :wink:

Posted by: FR 20.Feb.2007, 09:32 PM

QUOTE (.braderunner)
HA! Exactly! Then again...the situation was a little different - the Native Americans were not being expected to take care of the "settlers"...the settlers just killed them and took the land. :wink:


So what's Thanksgiving all about? The tradition is that the Native Americans did indeed take care of the "settlers". :shock: Shouldn't that tradition be continued by doing in-kind for the new "settlers"?

Posted by: Ezpen The Caveman 20.Feb.2007, 09:32 PM

QUOTE (.braderunner)
HA! Exactly! Then again...the situation was a little different - the Native Americans were not being expected to take care of the "settlers"...the settlers just killed them and took the land. :wink:

Yepp... That's what will happen. Foreigner + illegal immigrants will hi-jack the land...

Posted by: FR 20.Feb.2007, 09:36 PM

QUOTE (Bad Neger Espen)
Yepp... That's what will happen. Foreigner + illegal immigrants will hi-jack the land...


You expect everyone to behave like a Viking? :shock:

Posted by: Loulou 20.Feb.2007, 09:37 PM

QUOTE (.braderunner)
No

You should be denied all forms of domestic support save emergency medical need and immediate food needs to before subsequent immediate deportation to the country of origin.


Who are you? What you have said is awful. Do you think that leaving your home country to come to somewhere completely alien where you have no friends, family, language or empathy is easy? I think anyone who has managed to enter the fortress that is Europe and survived
deserves understanding, to be treated like a human being and not to be sent home. The migration department has such strict rules on asylum and being deported is such a risk even when going home means poverty, war and death. I can completely understand why people stay here or anywhere in fact "illegally". Saving your life is not illegal but people are punished for it anyway.

Posted by: Mzungu In Za. 20.Feb.2007, 09:38 PM

QUOTE (Bad Neger Espen)
Yepp... That's what will happen. Foreigner + illegal immigrants will hi-jack the land...


Don't worry Espan, Norway's next on the list! :wink:

Posted by: Ezpen The Caveman 20.Feb.2007, 09:50 PM

QUOTE (Loulou)
Who are you? What you have said is awful. Do you think that leaving your home country to come to somewhere completely alien where you have no friends, family, language or empathy is easy? I think anyone who has managed to enter the fortress that is Europe and survived
deserves understanding, to be treated like a human being and not to be sent home. The migration department has such strict rules on asylum and being deported is such a risk even when going home means poverty, war and death. I can completely understand why people stay here or anywhere in fact "illegally". Saving your life is not illegal but people are punished for it anyway.

Yes... Why not advertise to all people in the world that in the west, you'll get equal rights as the rest? Why not import the whole world to the west??

Posted by: Loulou 20.Feb.2007, 10:06 PM

QUOTE (Bad Neger Espen)
Yes... Why not advertise to all people in the world that in the west, you'll get equal rights as the rest? Why not import the whole world to the west??


I think that if western countries did more to prevent the problems in the east then there would be less need for people to flee their countires. The west keeps people inpoverished which leads to corruption and war so that a few people in the west can be rich. We can't pretend like we're not responsibe for a lot of problems in the world. I think that the problem is exactly your "us vs. them" attitude. People need to think more globally and not so selfishly. Most people don't actually want to leave their countires you know. It sounds like you believe that everyone who doesn't live in a western country desperately wants to, that isn't so. Most people would rather live in safety and health in their own country.

Posted by: Braderunner Rennuredarb 20.Feb.2007, 10:22 PM

QUOTE (Loulou)
Who are you? What you have said is awful. Do you think that leaving your home country to come to somewhere completely alien where you have no friends, family, language or empathy is easy? I think anyone who has managed to enter the fortress that is Europe and survived
deserves understanding, to be treated like a human being and not to be sent home. The migration department has such strict rules on asylum and being deported is such a risk even when going home means poverty, war and death. I can completely understand why people stay here or anywhere in fact "illegally". Saving your life is not illegal but people are punished for it anyway.
Who am I? I am Zee Braderunner wink.gif

Seriously though...I do not think that breaking the law is easy, but they are doing just that...breaking the law.

If the law needs to be changed, then change the law and work within the law.

Posted by: Gle 20.Feb.2007, 10:24 PM

QUOTE (Loulou)
I think that if western countries did more to prevent the problems in the east then there would be less need for people to flee their countires. The west keeps people inpoverished which leads to corruption and war so that a few people in the west can be rich. We can't pretend like we're not responsibe for a lot of problems in the world. I think that the problem is exactly your "us vs. them" attitude. People need to think more globally and not so selfishly. Most people don't actually want to leave their countires you know. It sounds like you believe that everyone who doesn't live in a western country desperately wants to, that isn't so. Most people would rather live in safety and health in their own country.


So now the instability and poverty in eastern countries is western countries' fault ? Come on stop looking for the guilty anywhere but home. This is the typical poor countries reasoning: it's not our fault, it's theirs so now they have to get us out of this!

Posted by: 7 20.Feb.2007, 10:25 PM

QUOTE (Cheryl Johnson)
I hear people who have make comments of Swedish people have brown eyes now

laugh.gif

best stupid statement ever!

Posted by: FR 20.Feb.2007, 10:27 PM

QUOTE (Gle)
So now the instability and poverty in eastern countries is western countries' fault ? Come on stop looking for the guilty anywhere but home. This is the typical poor countries reasoning: it's not our fault, it's theirs so now they have to get us out of this!


How about the western countries staying out of the poor eastern ones altogether, not being there either for so-called good or bad? The US, especially has taken on a role of emperor of the world (they call it "world's policeman" or "leader of the free world"). Why don't they just stop acting like they own the world?

Posted by: Gle 20.Feb.2007, 10:31 PM

QUOTE (FR)
How about the western countries staying out of the poor eastern ones altogether, not being there either for so-called good or bad? The US, especially has taken on a role of emperor of the world (they call it "world's policeman" or "leader of the free world"). Why don't they just stop acting like they own the world?


Western countries doesn't mean US! I agree with you about the US but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about here.

Posted by: astrogenic 20.Feb.2007, 10:32 PM

QUOTE (Loulou)
I think that if western countries did more to prevent the problems in the east then there would be less need for people to flee their countires. The west keeps people inpoverished which leads to corruption and war so that a few people in the west can be rich. We can't pretend like we're not responsibe for a lot of problems in the world. I think that the problem is exactly your "us vs. them" attitude. People need to think more globally and not so selfishly. Most people don't actually want to leave their countires you know. It sounds like you believe that everyone who doesn't live in a western country desperately wants to, that isn't so. Most people would rather live in safety and health in their own country.


Sorry, but there is a blatant contradiction and bias in your statement.

Statement. 'I think that the problem is exactly your "us vs. them" attitude.'

Contradition. 'I think that if western countries did more to prevent the problems in the east then there would be less need for people to flee their countires. The west keeps people inpoverished which leads to corruption and war so that a few people in the west can be rich.'

How could you argue for the elimination of 'us' versus 'them', when you yourself repeat that there is 'west' doing something against 'east'!!!!!!!

If you think globally truely, then you shouldn't be even talking about 'the west' AGAINST 'the east', but something else that truely have a global dimention, like the issues of poverty or the environmental pollution. These problems are as problematic in the west as in the east so that tackling these 'common' problems would be more helpful than just accusing 'the west' blindly.

Instead, if you use your original argument, you simply won't simply convince anyone, not in the West anyway. And, apparently, the east needs the west to help them - admit it! - in order to stop their country escaping from poverty. So extra incentive precisely to avoid using the comparison between 'the west' and 'the east' all together.

Posted by: FR 20.Feb.2007, 10:35 PM

QUOTE (Gle)
Western countries doesn't mean US! I agree with you about the US but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about here.


You cannot talk about western countries and exclude the US.

Posted by: Ezpen The Caveman 20.Feb.2007, 10:37 PM

So the western world are responsible for wars in Africa, Asia and the middle-east???
Look to USA and ask yourself why they fight their war.

USA cares too much, but gets only shit for it. The best thing is to let people kill eachother, but I understand that we should send all our money to war areas, because some assholes think it will make peace!!??

Posted by: FR 20.Feb.2007, 10:39 PM

OIL

Espen, the US doesn't care at all about any country other than its own.

Posted by: astrogenic 20.Feb.2007, 10:39 PM

The problem is though, FR, nor does anyone else.

Posted by: Gle 20.Feb.2007, 10:40 PM

QUOTE (FR)
You cannot talk about western countries and exclude the US.


I'm not excluding US, I'm just saying that western doesn't mean US! It's you who tries to talk only about the US!

Posted by: FR 20.Feb.2007, 10:44 PM

QUOTE (Gle)
I'm not excluding US, I'm just saying that western doesn't mean US! It's you who tries to talk only about the US!


Which country leads the western ones? Which western country is dominant in the world at the current time? It's not only the US, but you cannot say that the other western countries even come close to US dominance.

Posted by: Ezpen The Caveman 20.Feb.2007, 10:44 PM

QUOTE (FR)
OIL

Espen, the US doesn't care at all about any country other than its own.

But they have not attacked UK, Russia and Norway yet...
If we did the same as USA there would be a lot more wars. What could the western world do to make the immigrants to stay at home?? Nothing, I guess... because they have a dream of living like kings in the weatern world...

Posted by: FR 20.Feb.2007, 10:45 PM

QUOTE (astrogenic)
The problem is though, FR, nor does anyone else.


yup One has the biggest guns though

Posted by: Gle 20.Feb.2007, 10:50 PM

QUOTE (FR)
Which country leads the western ones? Which western country is dominant in the world at the current time? It's not only the US, but you cannot say that the other western countries even come close to US dominance.


So? What's your point? We are in a forum where we talk about Sweden which is a western country and which has many immigrants. We are discussing about the illegal aliens rights in Sweden or in the EU. What has it to do with the US? I still don't understand.

Posted by: FR 20.Feb.2007, 10:57 PM

QUOTE (Gle)
So? What's your point? We are in a forum where we talk about Sweden which is a western country and which has many immigrants. We are discussing about the illegal aliens rights in Sweden or in the EU. What has it to do with the US? I still don't understand.


I suppose you have forgotten the part of the thread with LouLou? Perhaps you need to re-read it and then you won't be lost anymore.

Posted by: Gle 20.Feb.2007, 11:06 PM

[quote="Gle"][quote=Loulou]
I think that if western countries did more to prevent the problems in the east then there would be less need for people to flee their countires. The west keeps people inpoverished which leads to corruption and war so that a few people in the west can be rich. We can't pretend like we're not responsibe for a lot of problems in the world. I think that the problem is exactly your "us vs. them" attitude. People need to think more globally and not so selfishly. Most people don't actually want to leave their countires you know. It sounds like you believe that everyone who doesn't live in a western country desperately wants to, that isn't so. Most people would rather live in safety and health in their own country.[/quote]

Here it is, I don't see where the United States are nominated, so FR please stop writing nonsense. If you want to talk about the US open another thread but let us talk about illegal immigration in this one.

Posted by: FR 20.Feb.2007, 11:12 PM

[quote="Gle"][quote=Gle][quote=Loulou]
I think that if western countries did more to prevent the problems in the east then there would be less need for people to flee their countires. The west keeps people inpoverished which leads to corruption and war so that a few people in the west can be rich. We can't pretend like we're not responsibe for a lot of problems in the world. I think that the problem is exactly your "us vs. them" attitude. People need to think more globally and not so selfishly. Most people don't actually want to leave their countires you know. It sounds like you believe that everyone who doesn't live in a western country desperately wants to, that isn't so. Most people would rather live in safety and health in their own country.[/quote]

Here it is, I don't see where the United States are nominated, so FR please stop writing nonsense. If you want to talk about the US open another thread but let us talk about illegal immigration in this one.[/quote]

Again, as the US is a western country, you cannot exclude it from the mix.

Posted by: FR 20.Feb.2007, 11:13 PM

Here, Gle, I'll help you make the connection as you're having so much difficulty. The US starts a war in Iraq. Refugees from Iraq head to Sweden. Got it yet? :roll:

Posted by: Roger O. Thornhill 20.Feb.2007, 11:24 PM

QUOTE (FR)
OIL

Espen, the US doesn't care at all about any country other than its own.



Is that why the US sends billions (US) around the world in commodities and financially props up the UN?

Posted by: Gle 20.Feb.2007, 11:27 PM

QUOTE (FR)
Here, Gle, I'll help you make the connection as you're having so much difficulty. The US starts a war in Iraq. Refugees from Iraq head to Sweden. Got it yet? :roll:


You seem too narrow minded. What do you think about Sweden, France, UK, Canada, Italy, Germany, Norway ... and so on aren't they western countries?

And what about Thailand, India, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, China, Turkey... and so on aren't they eastern countries?

The world is not US and Iraq but it's a bit larger.

Posted by: Ezpen The Caveman 20.Feb.2007, 11:28 PM

Why can't I have a vote in India???

Posted by: FR 20.Feb.2007, 11:30 PM

QUOTE (And Now For Something Completely Different)
Is that why the US sends billions (US) around the world in commodities and financially props up the UN?


The US does not financially prop up the UN. In fact, the US owes plenty in dues. Ted Turner, perhaps, financially props up the UN.

As for commodities, the best way to keep a country down is to make sure that their local businesses are put out of business. The best way to do that is to dump one's commodities for free in the areas where local farmers are trying to sell their goods. Local farmers cannot compete with free (no profit in that), so they are put out of business. This causes the country to become dependent upon, for instance, the US.

Posted by: FR 20.Feb.2007, 11:32 PM

QUOTE (Gle)
You seem too narrow minded. What do you think about Sweden, France, UK, Canada, Italy, Germany, Norway ... and so on aren't they western countries?

And what about Thailand, India, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, China, Turkey... and so on aren't they eastern countries?

The world is not US and Iraq but it's a bit larger.


It is you who is being narrow-minded. :roll: I never excluded other countries, but you did.

Posted by: FR 20.Feb.2007, 11:33 PM

QUOTE (Bad Neger Espen)
Why can't I have a vote in India???


Because you are not a citizen of India. If you'd like the vote in India, apply for a visa and work towards citizenship.

Posted by: Gle 20.Feb.2007, 11:36 PM

QUOTE (FR)
It is you who is being narrow-minded. :roll: I never excluded other countries, but you did.


Oh well this is the best that I've seen written today laugh.gif . You are talking only about the US in all your posts in this thread and it's me who excludes countries. However good night to you and your US thread smile.gif.

Posted by: FR 20.Feb.2007, 11:37 PM

QUOTE (Gle)
Oh well this is the best that I've seen written today laugh.gif . You are talking only about the US in all your posts in this thread and it's me who excludes countries. However good night to you and your US thread smile.gif.


Careful, Gle, you mentioned the US twice in that post. :roll:

Posted by: Ezpen The Caveman 20.Feb.2007, 11:37 PM

Is Russia a part of the western world??
I thought Nordic was in the Northern world??

Posted by: FR 20.Feb.2007, 11:38 PM

West usually means "developed" and east usually means "developing". Scandinavia is part of the developed world and Russia is questionable at least.

Posted by: Ezpen The Caveman 21.Feb.2007, 12:16 AM

Norway is not developed. It's an undeveloped country if you look at the definition...
but nobody wants to adopt us or send money... :cry:

Posted by: FR 21.Feb.2007, 12:34 AM

Stop flinging the herring around and maybe they would. laugh.gif

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 21.Feb.2007, 12:42 AM

QUOTE (Cheryl Johnson)
Absolutely not! I am a Swedish-American and live in Southern California. I have lived here for many years and have seen how massive illegal immigration - open boarders can totally change the ethnic landscape. Sweden needs to take a very strong stand here and nip it in the bud quickly. I haven't been in Sweden for many years but I hear people who have make comments of Swedish people have brown eyes now and Sweden will no longer be a nordic country because it is being taken over and over populated with immigration. Swedish people are not having enough ethnic Swedish babies to populate the country, etc. We in America are trying to get our government to take control of the boarders and whenever we try to cut immigrant rights they hold a march waving the flags of their native country, like Mexico. One of our local high schools had the American flag ripped down and the Mexican flag put up with the American flag underneath upside down. We are having to learn Spanish so WE melt into the Latino community not them melt into the English speaking community. Sweden needs to take a good look at what is happening to America, take notes and don't copy us. Protect your country. Protect your culture. Protect your language. Protect your nordic women because all the black and brown men love the white skinned blue-eyed blond women. Putting your
country on the auction block to prove what????? Giving your country away and opening it up for taken over to prove what????? Think twice!


Cheryl, you are a kindred soul!

I thought I was alone in this world.

I agree with most of your post.
I happent to live in a city that was perhaps 90% percent European when I was born. It is now down to 36% European; and when I walk around I am not even sure what COUNTRY I am in! My city's population is similar to Sweden in it's size. So Sweden could not exist as we know it today, if it ALLOWED immigration to get out of hand.

All people started out in the same "sandbox", and as we progressed, we played "king of the mountain". You can't blame Europeans for doing well in the game. A long time ago everything was equal. Yes it was! If others did better than Europeans then we would be immigrating to their countries!
Europeans are not thriving, they are a dying breed. The result of this would be replacement by peoples who needed our culture to improve themselves.
Who will take care of them after we are gone! Oh, boy! I am going to hear it about that!
I diverse (not to avoid the coming slings and arrows), how did it happen that our politicians let this happen?

Why don't other (non-European) governments take better care of their people?

Piling on Kevlar and such, going to hide behind barn.

Posted by: rinny777 21.Feb.2007, 12:47 AM

QUOTE (astrogenic)
Sorry, but there is a blatant contradiction and bias in your statement.

Statement. 'I think that the problem is exactly your "us vs. them" attitude.'

Contradition. 'I think that if western countries did more to prevent the problems in the east then there would be less need for people to flee their countires. The west keeps people inpoverished which leads to corruption and war so that a few people in the west can be rich.'

How could you argue for the elimination of 'us' versus 'them', when you yourself repeat that there is 'west' doing something against 'east'!!!!!!!

If you think globally truely, then you shouldn't be even talking about 'the west' AGAINST 'the east', but something else that truely have a global dimention, like the issues of poverty or the environmental pollution. These problems are as problematic in the west as in the east so that tackling these 'common' problems would be more helpful than just accusing 'the west' blindly.

Instead, if you use your original argument, you simply won't simply convince anyone, not in the West anyway. And, apparently, the east needs the west to help them - admit it! - in order to stop their country escaping from poverty. So extra incentive precisely to avoid using the comparison between 'the west' and 'the east' all together.


Yes east need HELP of west ..just west get hell out of east..and let them live their own life... :evil:

Posted by: Ezpen The Caveman 21.Feb.2007, 01:48 AM

QUOTE (rinny777)
..just west get hell out of east..and let them live their own life... :evil:

That's my point too... Leave the east alone, and the weat should mind their own business instead.

Posted by: astrogenic 21.Feb.2007, 03:01 AM

QUOTE (Bad Neger Espen)
That's my point too... Leave the east alone, and the weat should mind their own business instead.


The question is: would the east leave the west alone??

Or do they continue complaining, because they are so despirate to get the west's attention to help them out of their own problem??!!

Posted by: 7 21.Feb.2007, 08:08 AM

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock)
I happent to live in a city that was perhaps 90% percent European when I was born. It is now down to 36% European; and when I walk around I am not even sure what COUNTRY I am in!


you mean you used to think you lived in europe and now you're not sure?

i'll help you out. you live in the US which is made up of a shifting demographic of immigrants from the world over.

swedes live in sweden (not swedish-americans). they aren't concerned about the US's demographics and really don't give a toss what you think about theirs. in fact, mine.

i live here. i am a citizen. and just to scare you in your fear of non-european. i'm not european :shock:
worry about the US. we'll worry about sweden.

thanks for your concern.

Posted by: Mike 21.Feb.2007, 08:24 AM

QUOTE (Dev)
Hmm I was thinking America was built and is carried forward by immigrants from all over the world. Everyone in America is an immigrant except for Native Indians.


Maybe you should look up the term, illegal.

Posted by: Loulou 21.Feb.2007, 10:49 AM

QUOTE (astrogenic)
Sorry, but there is a blatant contradiction and bias in your statement.

Statement. 'I think that the problem is exactly your "us vs. them" attitude.'

Contradition. 'I think that if western countries did more to prevent the problems in the east then there would be less need for people to flee their countires. The west keeps people inpoverished which leads to corruption and war so that a few people in the west can be rich.'

How could you argue for the elimination of 'us' versus 'them', when you yourself repeat that there is 'west' doing something against 'east'!!!!!!!

If you think globally truely, then you shouldn't be even talking about 'the west' AGAINST 'the east', but something else that truely have a global dimention, like the issues of poverty or the environmental pollution. These problems are as problematic in the west as in the east so that tackling these 'common' problems would be more helpful than just accusing 'the west' blindly.

Instead, if you use your original argument, you simply won't simply convince anyone, not in the West anyway. And, apparently, the east needs the west to help them - admit it! - in order to stop their country escaping from poverty. So extra incentive precisely to avoid using the comparison between 'the west' and 'the east' all together.


No need to apologise to me and of course there is a bias in my statement, that is why it is my statement. As for my use of the terms east and west I couldn't think of any other terms to show the difference between certain countries, this seemed and easy way to descibe the contrast. Anyway I stand by my "us vs. them" statement as well as my "blind" accustaion that the west is to blame. Everything comes back to money, certain countries in the world are affluent and clean so others can be poor and polluted (was that better?)and I'll leave you to think about which countries those are. If people like you started to at least consider and accept that you live the way you do because other people in the world have nothing then maybe you wouldn't have such an awful attitude towards immigration and asylum seekers.

Posted by: Mike 21.Feb.2007, 10:54 AM

It's not the West's fault the Chinese pollute and have low wages. It's a simple process that has to be evolved. The US once had child labor, low wages, pollution everywhere, etc. but it grew out of that; China and other countries will too. You can't expect it to happen over night.

Posted by: Loulou 21.Feb.2007, 11:08 AM

Sure but in the mean time many people are more than happy to buy their Nike shoes, HM clothes etc. made in China.We need to boycott these products and write letters to these (often American or Swedish owned)companies and put pressure on them to raise wages and ban child labour. Also many factories have been moved from Sweden, Australia, US to China because there greedy owners want to take advantage of the low wages and lack of environmental control. Things can be made in China and still be OK but they need to have a Fair Trade label on them. Of course it won't happen overnight but if no one does anything and just happily buys these clothes and other products then nothing will ever happen.

Posted by: Mike 21.Feb.2007, 11:23 AM

Or here's a better idea. How about we let the Chinese stand up for themselves when they feel the time is right?

How will boycotting Chinese products help Chinese people? How is 0 dollars a day, better than $10 a day?

Posted by: 7 21.Feb.2007, 11:24 AM

QUOTE (Loulou)
Sure but in the mean time many people are more than happy to buy their Nike shoes, HM clothes etc. made in China.We need to boycott these products and write letters to these (often American or Swedish owned)companies and put pressure on them to raise wages and ban child labour. Also many factories have been moved from Sweden, Australia, US to China because there greedy owners want to take advantage of the low wages and lack of environmental control. Things can be made in China and still be OK but they need to have a Fair Trade label on them. Of course it won't happen overnight but if no one does anything and just happily buys these clothes and other products then nothing will ever happen.


things produced in china doesn't mean child labor or sweat shop drudgery as a matter of fact.

for some societies and some in particular societies, the ability for able children to contribute financially to the family is critical for their ability to survive, or to perhaps give a chance to younger siblings to have an education.

poor countries need most desperately the investment and know-how these "evil" companies provide. and it's not always the fat cats on the boards in london, ny and stockholm planning greedy ways to squeeze out more profit. it also comes from the local cultures and their own ideas of how to run things in their own country.

it's not always about exploitation.

the hubby's company built a factory in china. the drawings included running water. the local subsidiary thought it was insane to put running water into a factory.

when he was there on a business trip recently, the conference rooms, i.e. the facilities for executives, management and visitors, had NO heating installed even though it was only 15 degrees in the room. local management didn't see the need.

as for "fair trade labels"...who decides, who administers who gets bribed?

Posted by: rinny777 21.Feb.2007, 11:27 AM

QUOTE (FR)
West usually means "developed" and east usually means "developing". Scandinavia is part of the developed world and Russia is questionable at least.


Third world is east, and i assume 1st world is west ...where is the missing 2nd world :roll:

Posted by: rinny777 21.Feb.2007, 11:28 AM

QUOTE (astrogenic)
The question is: would the east leave the west alone??

Or do they continue complaining, because they are so despirate to get the west's attention to help them out of their own problem??!!



Look at history..who moved where :evil:

Posted by: Loulou 21.Feb.2007, 11:39 AM

QUOTE (007)
things produced in china doesn't mean child labor or sweat shop drudgery as a matter of fact.

for some societies and some in particular societies, the ability for able children to contribute financially to the family is critical for their ability to survive, or to perhaps give a chance to younger siblings to have an education.

poor countries need most desperately the investment and know-how these "evil" companies provide. and it's not always the fat cats on the boards in london, ny and stockholm planning greedy ways to squeeze out more profit. it also comes from the local cultures and their own ideas of how to run things in their own country.

it's not always about exploitation.

the hubby's company built a factory in china. the drawings included running water. the local subsidiary thought it was insane to put running water into a factory.

when he was there on a business trip recently, the conference rooms, i.e. the facilities for executives, management and visitors, had NO heating installed even though it was only 15 degrees in the room. local management didn't see the need.

as for "fair trade labels"...who decides, who administers who gets bribed?


The Fair Trade Labelling organisation decides. They do inspections and companies have to meet certain criteria before they are awarded the label. See www.fairtrade.net, maybe "the hubby" wants to ask them to do an inspection? I know it's not always about expolitation but where clothes and shoes are concerned it is often a sweatshop situation and although some companies may have a no child labour policy if there is no one there from their company to enforce it than it will happen.

Posted by: Markbase With An Invisible Silen 21.Feb.2007, 11:59 AM

Here's how IKEA does business with developing countries:

http://www.ikea.com/ms/en_GB/about_ikea/social_environmental/the_ikea_code_conduct.html

Mark Base
http://mdabase.blogspot.com -
For observations and opinions about life in Helsingborg

Posted by: Loulou 21.Feb.2007, 12:08 PM

At Indiska they have a brochure about this issue as well and basically they don't promise anything about child labour, they can't say for certain that their products aren't made by kids.

Posted by: Mike 21.Feb.2007, 12:17 PM

What's the difference between child labor and children training 24/7 for the Olympics?

Posted by: Dr. Neville Bongwater 21.Feb.2007, 12:30 PM

:shock:

Posted by: Mike 21.Feb.2007, 12:36 PM

Well, what's the difference?

Posted by: Mzungu In Za. 21.Feb.2007, 12:46 PM

Child labour, receive little or no nutrition..child athlete's, receieve an overabundance...plus who knows?

Posted by: Mike 21.Feb.2007, 12:55 PM

The child athlete works hard long hours for no pay, all for the glory of the state.

The child laborer works hard long hours to help keep his family from starving.

Both end up with long-term health problems.

So why is one considered bad, and the other not?

Posted by: rinny777 21.Feb.2007, 01:30 PM

Its same killing done by individual is crime but by state is patriotism

Posted by: Mzungu In Za. 21.Feb.2007, 01:39 PM

QUOTE (Mike)
The child athlete works hard long hours for no pay, all for the glory of the state.

The child laborer works hard long hours to help keep his family from starving.

Both end up with long-term health problems.

So why is one considered bad, and the other not?


Did not state good or bad...but the difference...to my mind they are equally bad.

Posted by: Guest 21.Feb.2007, 01:49 PM

not intending to flame americans here, I have no axe to grind but if you push things to their limits in california you would need to ask the native americans how they feel about this issue. They were in cali and were forced out by "illegal?" or maybe just immoral immigration many years ago. The Usa is made up of native americans in restricted areas and immigrants, hence the "melting pot" analogy, when did this openness for other cultures end? Incidentally, the decendants of the mexicans were free to wander upwards a while long before the boundaries were imposed. I dislike the tendency of american foreign policy to impose their values and culture on the rest of the world but I also dislike the tendency to generalise about americans because of this, this is not what I am trying to do. Amerricans are not american foreign policy.
Australia is the same, south africa, new zealand. Even swedens present swedish population moved here many years ago from central europe and there is a level of racism aimed at the indiginous peoples of the north.

About illegal immigrants voting. No, as of todays laws they are illegal and should not vote. I am legal but not a swedish citizen so I have no say in who rules the country, despite the fact that I have lived here and paid tax since 1995, this is more my home than england by far. Maybe it's time to open up the borders a bit, although I am very lucky, as are all americans, canadians and europeans. We are "FIN INVANDRARNA", try moving here as an asylum seeking kurd for instance, we have it just fine here.

Posted by: Mike 21.Feb.2007, 02:09 PM

QUOTE (Lucien Grey)
not intending to flame americans here, I have no axe to grind but if you push things to their limits in california you would need to ask the native americans how they feel about this issue.


Why stop there? Native American came from Asia. Who did they push off the continent?

Posted by: Webby 21.Feb.2007, 02:10 PM

Would the illigal aliens have to go through Will Smith to get on the electorol register?

Posted by: Guest 21.Feb.2007, 02:23 PM

QUOTE (Mike)
Why stop there? Native American came from Asia. Who did they push off the continent?


Yeah, in fact why stop there. Everyone regardless of natioanlity is central african. (probably)

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 21.Feb.2007, 03:45 PM

QUOTE (007)
you mean you used to think you lived in europe and now you're not sure?

i'll help you out. you live in the US which is made up of a shifting demographic of immigrants from the world over.

swedes live in sweden (not swedish-americans). they aren't concerned about the US's demographics and really don't give a toss what you think about theirs. in fact, mine.

i live here. i am a citizen. and just to scare you in your fear of non-european. i'm not european :shock:
worry about the US. we'll worry about sweden.

thanks for your concern.


I don't feel the same about the "so called" immigrant countries:
America, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, etc. As I do about Europe, and Sweden in particular.
I have a large family living in Sweden and I have had negative experiences here with non-Europeans and do not want my family to go through what I did.
My city has areas which defy description, turn a corner and you certainly are in another country. In fact, I live in the most racially/ethnically mixed area in the US, and I am not afraid.
I just don't like the idea of native Europeans becoming a minority in their own countries.

Yes, I am concerned about the future of Sweden, and will continue to do so.

Posted by: Gle 21.Feb.2007, 04:11 PM

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock)
I don't feel the same about the "so called" immigrant countries:
America, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, etc. As I do about Europe, and Sweden in particular.
I have a large family living in Sweden and I have had negative experiences here with non-Europeans and do not want my family to go through what I did.
My city has areas which defy description, turn a corner and you certainly are in another country. In fact, I live in the most racially/ethnically mixed area in the US, and I am not afraid.
I just don't like the idea of native Europeans becoming a minority in their own countries.

Yes, I am concerned about the future of Sweden, and will continue to do so.


Good point!

Posted by: Braderunner Rennuredarb 21.Feb.2007, 04:51 PM

QUOTE (Bad Neger Espen)
The best thing is to let people kill eachother, but I understand that we should send all our money to war areas, because some assholes think it will make peace!!??
That is why I am isolationist at the moment...

Posted by: FR 21.Feb.2007, 05:09 PM

QUOTE (007)
you mean you used to think you lived in europe and now you're not sure?

i'll help you out. you live in the US which is made up of a shifting demographic of immigrants from the world over.

swedes live in sweden (not swedish-americans). they aren't concerned about the US's demographics and really don't give a toss what you think about theirs. in fact, mine.

i live here. i am a citizen. and just to scare you in your fear of non-european. i'm not european :shock:
worry about the US. we'll worry about sweden.

thanks for your concern.


I believe the term "European" is being used here as a synonym for "white". That's what they did in apartheid South Africa too.

Posted by: Roger O. Thornhill 21.Feb.2007, 05:27 PM

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock)
I don't feel the same about the "so called" immigrant countries:
America, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, etc. As I do about Europe, and Sweden in particular.
I have a large family living in Sweden and I have had negative experiences here with non-Europeans and do not want my family to go through what I did.
My city has areas which defy description, turn a corner and you certainly are in another country. In fact, I live in the most racially/ethnically mixed area in the US, and I am not afraid.
I just don't like the idea of native Europeans becoming a minority in their own countries.

Yes, I am concerned about the future of Sweden, and will continue to do so.


Is there a question of relevant time when discussing immigration in Europe. How far back does one go to define national identity? Two hundred years? to middle ages? dark ages?

Posted by: FR 21.Feb.2007, 05:32 PM

QUOTE (And Now For Something Completely Different)
Is there a question of relevant time when discussing immigration in Europe. How far back does one go to define national identity? Two hundred years? to middle ages? dark ages?


Benjamin Franklin wrote that the Germans were too swarthy a people compared to the English. I think it's just time we give up on the color of peoples' skins and rather consider deeper issues. If the world were dark-skinned and spoke Otomi, but were a world at peace, I would be happy. Feel free to replace dark-skinned with any skin tone and Otomi with any language. I'll adapt.

Posted by: Roger O. Thornhill 21.Feb.2007, 05:33 PM

Can we get back to the original question?

Posted by: FR 21.Feb.2007, 05:34 PM

I believe the question was answered several times.

Posted by: Gle 21.Feb.2007, 05:39 PM

QUOTE (And Now For Something Completely Different)
Is there a question of relevant time when discussing immigration in Europe. How far back does one go to define national identity? Two hundred years? to middle ages? dark ages?


I think you don't understand completely the differences between "immigrant" countries which were created by immigrants and "non immigrant" countries which have always existed and have always been inhabited by the same kind of people. If you have a country where almost everybody has different roots and costumes from his neighbor you cannot talk of national identity, it's a meltin' pot. While in many countries of Europe you had until a few years ago an homogeneous population, sharing the same values, having the same costumes and beliefs and now this population which was the vast majority starts feeling minority: this is the problem here in Sweden.

Posted by: FR 21.Feb.2007, 05:42 PM

QUOTE (Gle)
I think you don't understand completely the differences between "immigrant" countries which were created by immigrants and "non immigrant" countries which have always existed and have always been inhabited by the same kind of people. If you have a country where almost everybody has different roots and costumes from his neighbor you cannot talk of national identity, it's a meltin' pot. While in many countries of Europe you had until a few years ago an homogeneous population, sharing the same values, having the same costumes and beliefs and now this population which was the vast majority starts feeling minority: this is the problem here in Sweden.


laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Someone knows very little about history.

Posted by: Gle 21.Feb.2007, 05:47 PM

QUOTE (FR)
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Someone knows very little about history.


Your posts are not even worth a reply.

Please stop flaming this thread.

Posted by: Pigeons Can't Fly Without Wings. 21.Feb.2007, 05:58 PM

QUOTE (Mike)
Why stop there? Native American came from Asia. Who did they push off the continent?


I did not know that they did 'push' anyone of the continent?

Who did they 'push'?

Posted by: Swap 21.Feb.2007, 05:59 PM

Cheryl Johnson wrote

QUOTE
Protect your nordic women because all the black and brown men love the white skinned blue-eyed blond women.


Did you read this while growing up as Trailer Trash?

Posted by: Pigeons Can't Fly Without Wings. 21.Feb.2007, 06:02 PM

QUOTE (Lucien Grey)
Yeah, in fact why stop there. Everyone regardless of natioanlity is central african. (probably)


Well...not really hey?

Maybe we all started of there, like a few million years ago, but I don't really think we can say that everyone are Central African anymore?

I sure don't feel or look like an African...

Posted by: Swap 21.Feb.2007, 06:15 PM

QUOTE (Gle)
Good point!


Ridiculous posts! I am amazed how pignorant some folks can be.

QUOTE
I have had negative experiences here with non-Europeans and do not want my family to go through what I did.

OMFG.. you are scarred for life now!!! I am sure there are too many "non Europeans" who are similarly scarred with negative experiences about "Europeans"

QUOTE
I just don't like the idea of native Europeans becoming a minority in their own countries.


For a change think with a brain! Is this practically possible.

I am all for strict asylum/illegal-immigration policy. However scare-mongering with loud claims is hilarious

Posted by: Snassek 21.Feb.2007, 07:13 PM

What is funny is when people think of the Native Americans as one big homogenous society when in fact they were warring with each other when the Europeans came.

Posted by: Ezpen The Caveman 21.Feb.2007, 07:25 PM

But the eauropeans have done this for centuries too... It's a part of european culture... biggrin.gif

Posted by: FR 21.Feb.2007, 07:47 PM

QUOTE (Snassek)
What is funny is when people think of the Native Americans as one big homogenous society when in fact they were warring with each other when the Europeans came.


Perhaps one group wore too many feathers and the other too little? Nobody wanted to learn the other's language? They wanted to keep their homogenous societies?

All gets rather ridiculous. Free movement of labor, I say. Get over it.

Posted by: Braderunner Rennuredarb 21.Feb.2007, 08:00 PM

QUOTE (FR)
Free movement of labor, I say. Get over it.
...and with that...abolution of governments and social security systems? Take care of yourself and your "village"?

The reason I mention this is that taxes are tied to labor...and social services are tied to taxes...

Posted by: FR 21.Feb.2007, 08:02 PM

QUOTE (.braderunner)
...and with that...abolution of governments and social security systems? Take care of yourself and your "village"?

The reason I mention this is that taxes are tied to labor...and social services are tied to taxes...


I'm libertarian. Do away with social services and keep taxes to a minimum. If you want to buy social insurance, buy from a private company, not the govt.

Posted by: Braderunner Rennuredarb 21.Feb.2007, 08:03 PM

QUOTE (FR)
I'm libertarian. Do away with social services and keep taxes to a minimum. If you want to buy social insurance, buy from a private company, not the govt.
*claps and makes snorting noises like the capitalist pig he is*

Posted by: Guest 21.Feb.2007, 08:55 PM

What else is new?

But you left out that you are also an authoritarian who simply thinks that even countries with elections should forget about them, and go along without a whimper whatever wars their mad governors cough up.

You are a disgrace to any civilized values.

Posted by: Guest 22.Feb.2007, 12:35 AM

QUOTE (FR)
I'm libertarian. Do away with social services and keep taxes to a minimum. If you want to buy social insurance, buy from a private company, not the govt.


I think compromise is usually the best possible solution for this situation. They have to meet in the middle, as everybody has different needs, wants, agendas, backgrounds, viewpoints, political stances, etc.

You need some social services, but don't go overboard and become socialistic.

If a country took your viewpoint and put it into action, you would have masses of poor people with increasing crime, drugs, health issues. etc. they would steal your wallet, carjack your nice car, rape you and give you HIV or STD and mental/phsical torment. It would all come back to haunt those who do have money and services. It is a big circle.

Posted by: FR 22.Feb.2007, 12:47 AM

QUOTE (narcissisticdoppleganger)
If a country took your viewpoint and put it into action, you would have masses of poor people with increasing crime, drugs, health issues. etc. they would steal your wallet, carjack your nice car, rape you and give you HIV or STD and mental/phsical torment. It would all come back to haunt those who do have money and services. It is a big circle.


Nonsense. Charity would be voluntary instead of the govt stealing my wallet. Poor people would be better off because the government wouldn't be wasting all the money collected at gunpoint on "administration" of itself. Private charities are much more efficient than government too.

Posted by: Guest 22.Feb.2007, 12:59 AM

QUOTE (FR)
Nonsense. Charity would be voluntary instead of the govt stealing my wallet. Poor people would be better off because the government wouldn't be wasting all the money collected at gunpoint on "administration" of itself. Private charities are much more efficient than government too.


Do you think that the amount of dollars and services provided by charities could ever equal or come close to equalling those which are provided by taxes? In the vast majority of cases, I agree that private charities are usually much more efficient (dollar per dollar, kr per kr). Usually because they have to be. Give governments a lot of money and they will spend a lot. Give them less and they will spend less. But I think they should have some used for social services. Not everything, but some basic ones. They should also change some of the services so that they make the individual more responsible, to some extent. Give people welfare if they need it, but if they are able to work any job, they must get one in a certain period of time, as the money will get less and less until it is barely subsistence level. (except for special cases). Most people need a leg up, not a handout, but always some exceptions, and we need to take those into consideration too.
In my opinion, Sweden = overtaxed, US, UK = undertaxed (rich).
Lagom is best. Somewhere in the middle would be better, methinks. Top-heavy administration is also a bad idea, and changes need to be made there though, as you say. But some social services are needed with some taxes. Wish it were not so, but it is reality.

Posted by: FR 22.Feb.2007, 01:27 AM

QUOTE (narcissisticdoppleganger)
Do you think that the amount of dollars and services provided by charities could ever equal or come close to equalling those which are provided by taxes?


Yes, especially when you take out the government waste. I think it would turn out to be more than what govt provides.

Posted by: Guest 22.Feb.2007, 01:36 AM

QUOTE (FR)
Yes, especially when you take out the government waste. I think it would turn out to be more than what govt provides.


Then we agree on that, at the very least. :wink:

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 22.Feb.2007, 02:46 AM

QUOTE (Swap)
Ridiculous posts! I am amazed how pignorant some folks can be.

QUOTE
I have had negative experiences here with non-Europeans and do not want my family to go through what I did.

OMFG.. you are scarred for life now!!! I am sure there are too many "non Europeans" who are similarly scarred with negative experiences about "Europeans"

QUOTE
I just don't like the idea of native Europeans becoming a minority in their own countries.


For a change think with a brain! Is this practically possible.

I am all for strict asylum/illegal-immigration policy. However scare-mongering with loud claims is hilarious


Pignorant???????

And yet you agree with me!

I am all for strict asylum/illegal-immigration policy.

It is not a secret that the birth rate for Europeans has fallen below the replacement level, which as I understand it is 2.1 children per couple. That ONLY replaces the parents!

As far as being "scarred for life" as you put it, my scars came before I was eight years old.

My brain. Yes, it's still functioning, and provides me with the ability to communicate with others. It's not my fault that they/you do not agree with me.

Nor, do I care.

Posted by: Swap 22.Feb.2007, 08:58 AM

[quote=Gamla Hälsingebock]OMFG.. you are scarred for life now!!! I am sure there are too many "non Europeans" who are similarly scarred with negative experiences about "Europeans"

[quote]I just don't like the idea of native Europeans becoming a minority in their own countries.[/quote]

For a change think with a brain! Is this practically possible.

I am all for strict asylum/illegal-immigration policy. However scare-mongering with loud claims is hilarious[/quote]

Pignorant???????

And yet you agree with me!

I am all for strict asylum/illegal-immigration policy.

It is not a secret that the birth rate for Europeans has fallen below the replacement level, which as I understand it is 2.1 children per couple. That ONLY replaces the parents!

As far as being "scarred for life" as you put it, my scars came before I was eight years old.

My brain. Yes, it's still functioning, and provides me with the ability to communicate with others. It's not my fault that they/you do not agree with me.

Nor, do I care.[/quote]

[quote]Pignorant???????

And yet you agree with me![/quote]

Where in my entire post did I claim to agree with you??

[quote]I am all for strict asylum/illegal-immigration policy.

It is not a secret that the birth rate for Europeans has fallen below the replacement level, which as I understand it is 2.1 children per couple. That ONLY replaces the parents![/quote]

Do whatever math and apply whatever ratios, your statement about "native Europeans becoming a minority in their own countries." will NEVER happen practically. No country will ever allow that. As I said the only purpose such statement servers is scare-mongering and a good laugh.


[quote]As far as being "scarred for life" as you put it, my scars came before I was eight years old.[/quote]
Too bad. Child abuse is an unfortunate reality in the world, as is rape, incest, torture, war, ethnic cleansing etc. But to blame all "non Europeans" (using your terminology here) because of your "scars" is plain bullshit! Visit any exotic beach resorts in Asia and you will see what profile (racial or otherwise) the typical paedophile has (whether "European" or "non European"..again your terminology). I guess you have never heard about "catholic" priests!
Point being... you can find such things in EVERY race, creed, community, country, continent whatever! To think otherwise IS pignorant!

[quote]My brain. Yes, it's still functioning, and provides me with the ability to communicate with others. It's not my fault that they/you do not agree with me.

Nor, do I care.[/quote]
Feelings are mutual!

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 22.Feb.2007, 10:36 PM

[quote=Swap][quote=Gamla Hälsingebock][quote=Swap][quote=Gle][quote=Gamla Hälsingebock]
I don't feel the same about the "so called" immigrant countries:
America, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, etc. As I do about Europe, and Sweden in particular.
I have a large family living in Sweden and I have had negative experiences here with non-Europeans and do not want my family to go through what I did.
My city has areas which defy description, turn a corner and you certainly are in another country. In fact, I live in the most racially/ethnically mixed area in the US, and I am not afraid.
I just don't like the idea of native Europeans becoming a minority in their own countries.

Yes, I am concerned about the future of Sweden, and will continue to do so.[/quote]

Good point![/quote]

Ridiculous posts! I am amazed how pignorant some folks can be.

[quote]I have had negative experiences here with non-Europeans and do not want my family to go through what I did.[/quote]
OMFG.. you are scarred for life now!!! I am sure there are too many "non Europeans" who are similarly scarred with negative experiences about "Europeans"

[quote]I just don't like the idea of native Europeans becoming a minority in their own countries.[/quote]

For a change think with a brain! Is this practically possible.

I am all for strict asylum/illegal-immigration policy. However scare-mongering with loud claims is hilarious[/quote]

Pignorant???????

And yet you agree with me!

I am all for strict asylum/illegal-immigration policy.

It is not a secret that the birth rate for Europeans has fallen below the replacement level, which as I understand it is 2.1 children per couple. That ONLY replaces the parents!

As far as being "scarred for life" as you put it, my scars came before I was eight years old.

My brain. Yes, it's still functioning, and provides me with the ability to communicate with others. It's not my fault that they/you do not agree with me.

Nor, do I care.[/quote]

[quote]Pignorant???????

And yet you agree with me![/quote]

Where in my entire post did I claim to agree with you??

[quote]
I am all for strict asylum/illegal-immigration policy.

It is not a secret that the birth rate for Europeans has fallen below the replacement level, which as I understand it is 2.1 children per couple. That ONLY replaces the parents!
[/quote]

Do whatever math and apply whatever ratios, your statement about "native Europeans becoming a minority in their own countries." will NEVER happen practically. No country will ever allow that. As I said the only purpose such statement servers is scare-mongering and a good laugh.


[quote]
As far as being "scarred for life" as you put it, my scars came before I was eight years old.[/quote]
Too bad. Child abuse is an unfortunate reality in the world, as is rape, incest, torture, war, ethnic cleansing etc. But to blame all "non Europeans" (using your terminology here) because of your "scars" is plain bullshit! Visit any exotic beach resorts in Asia and you will see what profile (racial or otherwise) the typical paedophile has (whether "European" or "non European"..again your terminology). I guess you have never heard about "catholic" priests!
Point being... you can find such things in EVERY race, creed, community, country, continent whatever! To think otherwise IS pignorant!

[quote]My brain. Yes, it's still functioning, and provides me with the ability to communicate with others. It's not my fault that they/you do not agree with me.

Nor, do I care.[/quote]
Feelings are mutual![/quote]

An absolutely incredible run of posts.

It started about illegals voting and ended (after 110 posts) with me being sodomized by a paedophile!
Which by the way I never said!
Much better than the "Telly"
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif
Help! I can't laugh straight laugh.gif

Posted by: Cheryl Johnson 23.Feb.2007, 01:33 AM

Bad Neger Espen wrote:

Yepp... That's what will happen. Foreigner + illegal immigrants will hi-jack the land...


You expect everyone to behave like a Viking?

[size=18][/size][color=blue][/color]Southern California gets a lot of illegal immigration and legal immigration. Orange County has a lot of people from Vietnam and they at one time wanted a public parade honoring their Vietnam soldiers. In Monterey Park which has mostly people from China wanted to change the native language to Chinese with all the street signs, building signs, etc in Chinese. We have pockets of different ethnic communities and each of these ethnic communities they wave the flag of their mother land, they promote their own language and culture and strength is in numbers. When Americans wanted to cut immigrant benefits and get tough on illegal immigration they went to the streets by the hundreds of thousands all waving flags of their mother land demanding benefits and rights. People who are not suppose to be here want rights and benefits. Then we have our elections and each ethnic community wants their own ethnic elected official and there is a lot of non-legal citizens who sign up to vote. Their are acusations every elections of people voting who are not suppose to because they want a latino in office, an Asian or whatever it is. They skirt around the law and if you don't get caught and can't prove it then it didn't happen. Once Swedish people are outnumbered then you no longer hold the power to protect your culture and language.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 23.Feb.2007, 01:50 AM

Cheryl. You got it right!

Sweden is too innocent to react to reality, and is generally too trustworthy to a fault.
I am afraid there are hard lessons to be learned here.
I don't want Sweden to become like the "immigrant" countries.
It is too small, and can easily be changed, and lose it's culture and values.

Posted by: 7 23.Feb.2007, 08:48 AM

QUOTE (Cheryl Johnson)
Once Swedish people are outnumbered then you no longer hold the power to protect your culture and language.


i'm already cowering in fear laugh.gif

(ummm...written in english by someone who promotes english and celebrates halloween-- now a part of the new swedish culture, thanksgiving, not yet a part of swedish culture but many people are interested and just heard that the "easter bunny" is now hopping into swedish culture)

kick out the n. americans

oh, and what is with pizza, kebab, tex-mex, marmite, talk of pancake day etc.

kick out everyone who doesn't go back 3 generations...

oops, that means all the finns need to leave too :shock:

i also think the Walloons should reclaim their revolutionary iron works that put sweden on the map thanks to "father of swedish industry" de geer--a belgian!

save sweden! laugh.gif

Posted by: Swap 23.Feb.2007, 09:02 AM

[quote=Cheryl Johnson]

You expect everyone to behave like a Viking?

Once Swedish people are outnumbered then you no longer hold the power to protect your culture and language.[/quote]
[/quote]

Were Vikings known for their civilized behaviour? :-D

These posts are actually eye openers... I thought Nazi asses were relegated to history... but Alas!! ;-):-)

Posted by: Loulou 23.Feb.2007, 09:21 AM

[quote=Swap][quote=Cheryl Johnson]

You expect everyone to behave like a Viking?

Once Swedish people are outnumbered then you no longer hold the power to protect your culture and language.[/quote]
[/quote]

Were Vikings known for their civilized behaviour? :-D

These posts are actually eye openers... I thought Nazi asses were relegated to history... but Alas!! ;-):-)[/quote]

Exactly! How dare people who leave their countries expect to maintain their language and culture AND expect some rights!I couldn't care less if there was a street sign in Chinese as long as someone was willing to translate for me if I needed to find it but then again Cheryl woud probably be too scared to do that, the immigrant germs might transfer to her. I am from a country of migration as well and thank satan for immigrants! It would be so boring if it was only full of the white English people who invaded it in the first place. By the way what Swedish culture is so sacred? Midsommer? People will still celebrate these things but maybe there will be a guy from Nigeria or a girl from Vietnamn along for the ride.

Posted by: Ezpen The Caveman 23.Feb.2007, 09:54 AM

SOme immigrantion can be healthy, but so are the intake of some alcohol like wine. If immigrants have a culture far from the culture they have in their new country, they seems to gather togheter and make their own community. This way you'll get states in the state. If immigration from 1 area gets too big, there will be problems. Soon they'll want to have their own laws and rules, even if the "head"-states is not allowing it.
Some think USA is a perfect melting-pot, but it's not melting good enough. Riots, civilian "army" clashes, "states" in the states etc

Posted by: Guest 23.Feb.2007, 10:44 AM

"A state in a state" could you possibly mean like a group of immimgrants in a swedish speaking country getting together and complaining about immigration in english, on an english speaking website, where even job ads are provided in a language which is not the countries official language. I realise that everyone here is probably a legal immigrant but I wonder how many speak fluent swedish, how many are happy that sweden is adapting the british pub culture(in a number of small isolated ways of course), that they can buy beef jerky in the american shop in malmö, that there are french and german speaking societies here and that search for it you can get decent pizza baked by italian nationals.

But wait, stop that immigration! or do we mean the countries outside of europe? (and north america because although not european they are white at least)Do we mean people with different religions, heaven forbid someone should want to build a mosque.

"I want to move to a country which does not allow immigartion! They cry in an outrage.

The pot calling the kettle me thinks!

Posted by: Ezpen The Caveman 23.Feb.2007, 11:07 AM

No... More like own laws. (This thread is about illegal immigrants??)
The world isn't just black and white, so you better not use your "racist" argument as long as you don't know what your talking about.
Do you know what cultural exchange is???

Posted by: Guest 23.Feb.2007, 12:24 PM

Of course I know what cultural exchange is, it seems that others don't, as the discussion had moved firmly away from illegal immigration and was focused on immigration in general, and the limitation thereof. (I paraphrase: Immigartion is fine to a degree).

I was not using a racism argument(European immigration laws exclude non europeans- draw your own conclusions) I was just wondering if it was only me that could see the irony of a bunch of immigrants complaining about immigation in sweden in a foreign language. Being norwegian does not qualify you as being almost swedish, simply as being the aforementioned "fin invandrare". (as does being english for me)A countries people vote for the EU which entails free movement of labour but then complains about that very same movement, but then it is not so cut and dry because then you have the other forms of grouping(schengen for example) which complicates the system even more. I find it ironic too that you talk about limiting immigration and yet accuse me of playing the race card. I am not capable of playing the race card as a white Eu state citizen. The race card is there to be played however for someone more qualifed to do so.

I know of no immigrant group in a country which have their own laws, I stand to be corrected if I am wrong. As an immigrant here I am subject to the same laws as a swede and would expect no more. I am not however thankfully subject to the same predujudices as other groups.

I beleive what I wrote to be true in my opinion and wonder why you feel the need to imply that I do not know what I am talking about, I'm adapting my train of thought as I write, swedish immigration as all EU member states is racist in some ways and I defy you to prove otherwise. People are excluded because of race, how clearly do I need to explain this for you? There are many reasons for this, the fact however remains: you as norwegian and I as an englishman have a much easier time to move to sweden than a polish woman for example, both officailly and socially. That's just the way it is I beleive both the polish lady and I accept this.

If you feel the need to retort please do me a favour and answer me with a well thought out argument rather than just saying I don't know what I'm talking about, I can accept being proved wrong but have a much harder time accepting unsupported arrogance.

Posted by: Braderunner Rennuredarb 23.Feb.2007, 04:45 PM

QUOTE (Trowbridge H. Ford)
What else is new?

But you left out that you are also an authoritarian who simply thinks that even countries with elections should forget about them, and go along without a whimper whatever wars their mad governors cough up.

You are a disgrace to any civilized values.
Trowtrow - you are a 'effing RIOT.

*makes jabs at the air with a fake syringe*

You crack me up! laugh.gif

Posted by: Ezpen The Caveman 23.Feb.2007, 05:47 PM

QUOTE (Lucien Grey)
Of course I know what cultural exchange is, it seems that others don't, as the discussion had moved firmly away from illegal immigration and was focused on immigration in general, and the limitation thereof. (I paraphrase: Immigartion is fine to a degree).

I was not using a racism argument(European immigration laws exclude non europeans- draw your own conclusions) I was just wondering if it was only me that could see the irony of a bunch of immigrants complaining about immigation in sweden in a foreign language. Being norwegian does not qualify you as being almost swedish, simply as being the aforementioned "fin invandrare". (as does being english for me)A countries people vote for the EU which entails free movement of labour but then complains about that very same movement, but then it is not so cut and dry because then you have the other forms of grouping(schengen for example) which complicates the system even more. I find it ironic too that you talk about limiting immigration and yet accuse me of playing the race card. I am not capable of playing the race card as a white Eu state citizen. The race card is there to be played however for someone more qualifed to do so.

I know of no immigrant group in a country which have their own laws, I stand to be corrected if I am wrong. As an immigrant here I am subject to the same laws as a swede and would expect no more. I am not however thankfully subject to the same predujudices as other groups.

I beleive what I wrote to be true in my opinion and wonder why you feel the need to imply that I do not know what I am talking about, I'm adapting my train of thought as I write, swedish immigration as all EU member states is racist in some ways and I defy you to prove otherwise. People are excluded because of race, how clearly do I need to explain this for you? There are many reasons for this, the fact however remains: you as norwegian and I as an englishman have a much easier time to move to sweden than a polish woman for example, both officailly and socially. That's just the way it is I beleive both the polish lady and I accept this.

If you feel the need to retort please do me a favour and answer me with a well thought out argument rather than just saying I don't know what I'm talking about, I can accept being proved wrong but have a much harder time accepting unsupported arrogance.

I agree to some of what you are saying, but I'm refering to this:
QUOTE
(and north america because although not european they are white at least)


Don't make this a black and white thread, because the thread is about voting rights for ILLEGAL immigrants.

Should illegal IMMIGRANTS be allowed top vote only if they are black???

Why should illegal IMMIGRANTS gets equal rights a LEGAL immigrants??

Posted by: Roger O. Thornhill 23.Feb.2007, 05:51 PM

QUOTE (Bad Neger Espen)
No... More like own laws. (This thread is about illegal immigrants??)
The world isn't just black and white, so you better not use your "racist" argument as long as you don't know what your talking about.
Do you know what cultural exchange is???


When one runs out of logic, always charge racism.

Posted by: FR 23.Feb.2007, 10:55 PM

QUOTE (Bad Neger Espen)
Don't make this a black and white thread, because the thread is about voting rights for ILLEGAL immigrants.

Should illegal IMMIGRANTS be allowed top vote only if they are black???

Why should illegal IMMIGRANTS gets equal rights a LEGAL immigrants??


Should LEGAL immigrants get the right to vote? No! Only citizens of a country should get the right to vote, whether they were born in the country, naturalized or whatever.

Posted by: FR 23.Feb.2007, 10:58 PM

QUOTE (Lucien Grey)
"A state in a state" could you possibly mean like a group of immimgrants in a swedish speaking country getting together and complaining about immigration in english, on an english speaking website, where even job ads are provided in a language which is not the countries official language.


Swedes in Wisconsin. laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif Bunch of immigrant Swedes complaining about Wisconsin.

Posted by: Braderunner Rennuredarb 23.Feb.2007, 11:24 PM

QUOTE (Lucien Grey)
...on an english speaking website, where even job ads are provided in a language which is not the countries official language.
Psst - Sweden does not have an official language at the moment. (I dont think)

Posted by: Craptastical 24.Feb.2007, 12:34 AM

QUOTE (.braderunner)
QUOTE (Lucien Grey)
...on an english speaking website, where even job ads are provided in a language which is not the countries official language.
Psst - Sweden does not have an official language at the moment. (I dont think)


You are correct:

QUOTE ([url)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_langu...Official_status[/url]]Swedish in Sweden is considered the "main language" and its use is officially recommended for local and state government, but not actually enforced by law.

Posted by: Cheryl Johnson 7.Mar.2007, 03:16 AM

Cheryl. You got it right!

Sweden is too innocent to react to reality, and is generally too trustworthy to a fault.
I am afraid there are hard lessons to be learned here.
I don't want Sweden to become like the "immigrant" countries.
It is too small, and can easily be changed, and lose it's culture and values.

This past month, in California, we have Bank of America giving credit loans to illegal immigrants and we have a food restaurant accepting foreign money and more Latino community businesses are wanting to follow. Everything is in Spanish to accommodate them, they can get benefits and now bank loans all the while they are illegal immigrants. Now it is their own money. Because they are considered minorities they get special privileges and accommodations. They fly their own flags from the countries they come from. HELLO! GET A CLUE?

Posted by: Ezpen The Caveman 7.Mar.2007, 04:06 AM

Seems like a crack in the melting pot/kettle... laugh.gif

Posted by: 7 7.Mar.2007, 05:03 AM

or just crack.

are you up early for the seal hunt?

Posted by: Ezpen The Caveman 7.Mar.2007, 07:23 AM

Ya... but this timw it was 2 kids jumping up and down in their beds... :? :wink:

Posted by: FR 7.Mar.2007, 01:08 PM

QUOTE (Cheryl Johnson)
Cheryl. You got it right!

Sweden is too innocent to react to reality, and is generally too trustworthy to a fault.
I am afraid there are hard lessons to be learned here.
I don't want Sweden to become like the "immigrant" countries.
It is too small, and can easily be changed, and lose it's culture and values.

This past month, in California, we have Bank of America giving credit loans to illegal immigrants and we have a food restaurant accepting foreign money and more Latino community businesses are wanting to follow. Everything is in Spanish to accommodate them, they can get benefits and now bank loans all the while they are illegal immigrants. Now it is their own money. Because they are considered minorities they get special privileges and accommodations. They fly their own flags from the countries they come from. HELLO! GET A CLUE?


Hello, get a clue. Some of CA is within 75 miles of an international border. According to NAFTA rules, US dollars are accepted within 75 miles of the border within Mexico and pesos are accepted within 75 miles of the border within the US.

Any foreigner can get a loan from an international bank such as Bank of America, Citigroup or any other. The bank is a private institution and can lend money to whoever it pleases.

California used to be in Mexico. Why did the US force everyone to learn English in the first place. Shouldn't Spanish be preserved as the heritage of the region?

Posted by: Mike 7.Mar.2007, 01:13 PM

QUOTE (FR)
California used to be in Mexico. Why did the US force everyone to learn English in the first place. Shouldn't Spanish be preserved as the heritage of the region?


The US doesn't have an official language and doesn't force anyone to speak anything. All federal forms are available in a variety of languages.

Posted by: FR 7.Mar.2007, 01:17 PM

QUOTE (Mike)
The US doesn't have an official language and doesn't force anyone to speak anything. All federal forms are available in a variety of languages.


And that's just the way it should be. Cheryl, however, is complaining at the loss of English in California. Considering that Spanish used to be the official language of California under Mexico, she has little to complain about. Spanish was lost, by force or whatever. So what, all languages are lost in the end. Embrace change.

Posted by: Mike 7.Mar.2007, 01:21 PM

QUOTE (FR)
And that's just the way it should be. Cheryl, however, is complaining at the loss of English in California. Considering that Spanish used to be the official language of California under Mexico, she has little to complain about. Spanish was lost, by force or whatever. So what, all languages are lost in the end. Embrace change.


I agree. Language should not be regulated.

BTW, before Mexico, it was Spain, and before that it was native Americans.

Posted by: Swap 7.Mar.2007, 01:41 PM

QUOTE (Cheryl Johnson)
Absolutely not! I am a Swedish-American and live in Southern California. I haven't been in Sweden for many years but I hear people who have make comments of Swedish people have brown eyes now and Sweden will no longer be a nordic country because it is being taken over and over populated with immigration. Swedish people are not having enough ethnic Swedish babies to populate the country, etc. ... Protect your country. Protect your culture. Protect your language. Protect your nordic women because all the black and brown men love the white skinned blue-eyed blond women. Putting your country on the auction block to prove what????? Giving your country away and opening it up for taken over to prove what????? Think twice!


Hilarious... an "immigrant" in the US farting about things, real or imagined, happening in Sweden because of immigration. especially "black and brown men love the white skinned blue-eyed blond women"
Get a grip blondie! Dont overrate yourself and likes of you...
People with your kind of intellect and thought process are usually called "TRAILER TRASH"!

Posted by: FR 8.Mar.2007, 01:40 PM

QUOTE (Mike)
I agree. Language should not be regulated.

BTW, before Mexico, it was Spain, and before that it was native Americans.


Yes, and the only time the US found Navajo useful was during WWII. Then they couldn't get enough of it.

Wow, we're agreeing on something. :shock:

Posted by: Puffin 8.Mar.2007, 01:48 PM

QUOTE (Swap)
Hilarious... an "immigrant" in the US farting about things, real or imagined, happening in Sweden because of immigration. especially "black and brown men love the white skinned blue-eyed blond women"
Get a grip blondie! Dont overrate yourself and likes of you...
People with your kind of intellect and thought process are usually called "TRAILER TRASH"!



I'm not sure why Cheryl thought that it would be a good idea to post this diatribe on a site for IMMIGRANTS to Sweden?

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