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The Local _ Visas _ Another permanent residence question

Posted by: JulieLou40 6.Mar.2013, 04:47 PM

...but I can't find anything on my situation, so here goes.

I'm EU. I couldn't register my right of residence as an EU citizen when I moved here, as I didn't fit into any of the boxes for doing so-I didn't have a job, wasn't a student, etc etc. So I went the sambo permit route. Been here just over 2 years now. Handed in my application for residence extension personally a few weeks ago (before it was due to run out, obviously), and assumed it would go thru quickly and easily, after all, my UT was received a mere 6 days after visiting MV when I first moved to Sweden. This time I'm expecting a PUT.

Called the MV office today and was told that the case officer hasn't even started working on it yet, there's no guarantee that I will automatically get a PUT (could be another UT she said (wtf?)), and they might call me in for an interview?! This all sounds a bit weird and over the top. Plus the person I spoke to today told me I also had to fill in a 225021 form, for an EU extension. When I handed in my extension app a few weeks ago I was never told i needed this, in fact the case worker looked over my app and said everything was in order and she had all she needed.

Unfortunately I don't get on with my sambo's family, and now I'm imagining all sorts. I did find out (they don't know this) that they themselves enquired about my rights with MV a few weeks back (don't think they mentioned my name, but just posed a hypothetical enquiry), and I'm scared that they would try & stick a spanner in the works for me.

I've made sure that my conduct has been exemplary here, obviously. I have no debts, I don't claim any benefits, and I have not committed any crimes. I've also been living with my sambo for 2 years (well, 2 years and over 1 month now), and as far as I see it, this should be a straightforward and easy situation.

Anyone else come across it or can offer advice? Are MV going over the top, or did I just speak to someone who is a bit clueless, and gave me wrong info? Have the rules changed in the last 2 years also, maybe?

Any insight gratefully received.

Posted by: mångk 6.Mar.2013, 05:08 PM

They may call you in for an interview, yet again they may not.

I do not think that you have too much to be worried about. If the relationship is real, then they usually provide PUT after the first 2 years and it is generally only in exceptional circumstances they don't.

The bit they have said about the UT is kind of a requirement because PUT is not an 'automatic' right and there are circumstances when another UT is provided.

Posted by: Yorkshireman 6.Mar.2013, 05:19 PM

QUOTE (JulieLou40 @ 6.Mar.2013, 04:47 PM) *
Are MV going over the top, or did I just speak to someone who is a bit clueless, and gave me wrong info?

Sounds more like You are clueless with regards this. You actually spoke with someone at MV that gave you the totally correct answer and was apparently very clued-up and told you exactly what might happen.

They could give you either an extension or PUT, depends upon how they feel about the relationship. To gather further info they may even call you in for an interview, which can enable the PUT or indeed make them decide extension to UT. PUTs are not automatic.

Posted by: JulieLou40 6.Mar.2013, 05:33 PM

QUOTE (Yorkshireman @ 6.Mar.2013, 05:19 PM) *
Sounds more like You are clueless with regards this.

...Fair enough, but then that is why I asked-in case I was wrong. If I'd been absolutely 100% sure that I should automatically get the PUT, I wouldn't have bothered posing the question, would I?

Posted by: byke 6.Mar.2013, 05:48 PM

Without wanting to sound creepy, but based on your past references on this board.
Could there be anything from your past that could be a problem (that the inlaws know about) ?

Posted by: JulieLou40 6.Mar.2013, 06:28 PM

Not really. No skeletons in the closet at all. It's no secret we've been through the mill, what with my son's behaviour issues, and the diagnosis, trialling of meds etc. It's certainly not how we envisaged the first two years to be, & we've all found it hard to cope.

Posted by: byke 6.Mar.2013, 07:44 PM

I was thinking more so of access rights in terms of biological rights (regardless if they choose to)

Posted by: JulieLou40 6.Mar.2013, 08:56 PM

Not sure I'm entirely with you, but If it helps, my sambo isn't my son's biological father, so there are no worries there regarding any "rights" of the in-laws. As for his biological father, I've always had full custody, and shall continue to do so, and this is stated in an agreement we made, of which MV have a copy (I've heard of people being dragged through all kinds of crap by the authorities here when they move to Sweden as single parents, so I covered all bases).

Posted by: byke 6.Mar.2013, 09:11 PM

Basically that's what I was suggesting, but due to the sensitive nature of the subject for some I was trying to ensure I walked on egg shell to ensure I dint offend.

Usually 2 years is the time frame allocated as permanent residency in terms of child custody battles or issues relating to custody of children with parents living in different countries.

My only worry would be that even though you have full custody, that this could be a stumbling block in regards to MV. I know of a similar issue regarding a family and its not been an easy ride.

But you know, like many threads on here ... its luck of the draw.
As so many cases are dealt differently depending on the person reviewing your case.

You may also need a new consent form from the biological father in terms of living abroad with said child.

Posted by: Programmeny 6.Mar.2013, 11:04 PM

I'm sorry, but all the answers you received on this thread basically just continued to mislead you in your wrong picked quest. You see, as an EU citizen you talk about resident permit, extension and PUT?!

You DO NOT NEED ANY KIND OF PERMIT. As an EU citizen YOU HAVE THE FULL RIGHT to reside in Sweden whether they "acknowledge you" or not.

All you have to do is go to MV and tell them "I'm here to stay". They might ask for all kinds of categories and reasons, but you don't really have to give them anything. You see, you are not obliged by law - they do this as a means of categorizing the immigrants, but you are not required to do so. You are not even required to go to the MV. It's not asked by law. There are tons of people who just went straight to Skatteverket and applied for a personnumer.

As for a PUT - that is something which non-EU immigrants get. I had an Indian friend, and he was truly applying for permits, extensions, PUT and everything.

As an EU citizen you have the same rights as a Swedish citizen the moment you step foot in Sweden, except the right to vote. The right to healthcare is somewhat... withheld from you by asking you to first pay taxes before being able to register for health insurance. You do that by working, which you have the right to.

All you really need is a personnumer. The moment you have that, you can access any service a Swede is accessing. You don't need a resident "PERMIT". You do not need a permit of any kind.

PERMIT and RIGHT are two separate things. You cannot be asked to have "permission" because you already have "the right". It's called a "right" because that's what it is. A right. And it cannot be taken from you easily.

In order for Sweden to expunge you from the country as an EU citizen you have to commit some really serious crimes. Any other reason will get them a hearing in the European Human Rights court.

You have to understand, this right is something upon the whole of EU is built. It's a foundation block. The right to travel freely AND RESIDE in any country.

Stop applying for permits. You were misinformed. I've seen this happen with a lot of EU citizens. They go to Skatteverket or MV and they are filed under the immigrants field, although they are EU citizens. I don't know how this is possible, but I guess some public officers there don't really know the difference between an EU passport and a non-EU passport, nor do they know the countries which make-up the EU.

My most sincere advise to you is go see a lawyer. Not because you need to use him in some legal action, but because he will explain it better to you what are your rights in Sweden.

Although I applied as a student, I have a friend who came here as a nothing. No category. He went to MV and upon they asking him why he moved here, he just said "because I was bored". And that was it. He was filed under "free-mover".

Next he went to Skatteverket and got a personnumer and then he started looking for a job, started going to SFI, etc. He's now employed and has the same exact rights as any other Swede, except the right to vote, which we both hope to get when we apply for citizenship.

There are way too many people on this forum that really complicate things and don't understand the fact that you can, as an EU citizen, literally walk to Sweden and stay there for as long as your heart desires, without anyone having the right to remove you from the country. The whole burecratic process and things that you see are "NEEDED" are in fact not, and are simple formalities for the gain of the Swedish government, not for yours.

All that is for non-EU citizens. They need to get visas, temporary residence permits, then permanent residence permits, etc.

You do not need to do so. I see too many people confusing permanent residence permit with permanent right of residence. The permanent right of residence is NOTHING. It's simply an acknowledgement of the fact that you've been in Sweden for more than 5 years, but in reality, there's no difference between you being here 2 days and you being here 5 years. The right of residence is the same with the permanent right of residence.

Stop doing whatever you're doing and just relax. If you're an EU citizen, you're legal here. Get a job and you have access to healthcare too. After 5-6 years from the date you registered with MV, apply for citizenship if you really want the right to vote. If not, that's fine too.

Whoever told you do apply for sambo knows absolutely nothing about your rights in Sweden. What EU citizen in his right mind would apply for a sambo PERMIT? That's just ludicrous. YOU as an EU citizen ALSO have the right to bring someone to Sweden, so someone from a non-EU country can hypotheticall apply for a sambo permit WITH YOU (as you being his connection to Sweden) so he or she can get here. But doing that requires you to actually have been here for quite some time and have been working. I know people believe you need to be a citizen of Sweden for this, but it's not always the case.

If you separate from your sambo right now, and move alone wherever you want in Sweden, nothing happens. You do not need that permit or extension you have. You can throw it away and never need it again. If anyone ever asks you for it, all you need to do is show them either your EU passport or your EU identity card. They are OBLIGED by law to recognize any EU passport as a legal form of identification in Sweden.

The only time I had a problem with this is when I went to the bank and they told me they need a Swedish ID with my personnumer on it. I told them they were wrong, they don't, they are obliged by law to accept my passport and the letter from Skatteverket in which my name was associated with my personnumer, and if they don't accept it they are refusing me an EU basic right, and I will contact the ombudsman for discrimination. They said (basically the lady at the counter) said she knows of no such law. I stated that the invocation of not knowing the law is not an excuse for not submitting to it. She called someone and 5 minutes later I had my approval and 1 week later I received my card and everything in the mail.

If you do not know your rights, then how or why would you expect others to know them for you? Truth is - I didn't know them either before coming here, and probably most public officers don't know them either. They have their thing and work with immigrants that indeed need a residence card and everything.

When I was to Skateverkett I was asked for all kinds of things that were required for a residence permit. I knew that because I had looked at the requirements for a residence permit and the requirements for a personnumer as an EU citizen.

I told them I already gave all these details to the MV and that here is my letter from them confirming. I also told them that my country is in the EU and handed them my EU passport and I also told them what is actually stated by their own regulations that I need - and that half of the things they were asking me were for a residence permit, and that I shouldn't be categorized as a non-EU. They were trying to give me a residence permit.

I suspect something similar happened to you.
Do yourself a world of good, and go talk with someone that can tell you the same thing. You don't need anything to live and work in Sweden. Not a permit, not a card, not a letter. Nothing. All you need is a personnumer (but that's not required by law either, it's just that you can't really do anything without it). There are people who moved here and lived without a personnumer for years, finding all kinds of ways to deal without one. It's not illegal.

Like I said: You can walk in Sweden and stay here for as long as you want. You don't need any permission to do so, because you already have "the right to move and reside in any EU country" and whoever says differently is badly misinformed or trying to hurt you. Know your rights. Read the EU law - it has precedence over the Swedish law - and although many don't like that and will try to disprove it - it is nonetheless true.

Posted by: Yorkshireman 7.Mar.2013, 08:58 AM

QUOTE (Programmeny @ 6.Mar.2013, 11:04 PM) *
As an EU citizen YOU HAVE THE FULL RIGHT to reside in Sweden whether they "acknowledge you" or not.

To put it simply ... You are wrong!

You do not have the Right to Reside. There is a Right to Reside, but it has conditions, how each Member State enforces those conditions is their choice. But it is not a Right as such. You can be refused, You can be asked to leave the country, You can be deported.

Posted by: JulieLou40 7.Mar.2013, 09:42 AM

Yes, that's how I understand it too. Also, I don't HAVE to be in Sweden 5 years to gain citizenship. MV confirmed when I enquired some time ago now, that I just need to have lived in Sweden with my Swedish sambo for three years, with one of those being permanent residence. This will be up early next year, but when I spoke to them yesterday to enquire about the status of my permit application, they said the permit starts from the date of decison, not the date I started living here. So basically if it takes them ruddy months to sort it (which it looks like it will), this time won'tbe counted-which seems a bit unfair. So this is another reason why I'm trying to push it along.

Having said all this, I did ask when I put the application in, is this really necessary, being an EU citizen? And the woman said that if I didn't go the above-board route, it is EXTREMELY hard to get rid of an EU citizen and takes forever. So this is probably all academic. Nevertheless, I'd like to do it the "proper" way.

Posted by: JulieLou40 7.Mar.2013, 10:49 AM

Interesting development. I'd emailed the Your Europe website yesterday for advice on this, and although a large part of their email was irrelevant (they were telling me to get a person number which I needed from the beginning and have had for 2 years!), they did say that once I had that and were "registered with the town hall" (I presume they mean on the folkbok thingy which of course I am too, as that happened when I got my PN), I can go straight to MV and get a residence card. They said this can take many months to come through, btu they did NOT mention anything anywhere about my needing any kind of permit.

So I'm gonna be calling them later with all this, and we'll see what happens!

Posted by: mångk 7.Mar.2013, 10:56 AM

But with the 'sambo visa' application it is slightly different and a quicker means to citizenship - if that is your objective!

So if they have sent information about right of residence that is one thing, but the 'sambo visa' is another thing all together. They have different requirements and come with slightly different rights and responsibilities. So I would suggest before you rush off and change the type of permit that you research it very, very carefully! wink.gif

Posted by: JulieLou40 7.Mar.2013, 11:26 AM

..Would you believe it, this occurred to me right after I last posted here. I re-read their email again and again, and it was clear that they were talking about the right of residence only, and probably had no insight on the fact that the sambo visa is a quicker way to citizenship-which I would indeed like. In one part of the email, they even said I would need own funds and full insurance so that I wouldn't be deemed as a burden on the state-but I know that as I have my sambo permit, these two problems are defunct, as my sambo is supporting me, and I am also automatically socially insured.
Also, they did say that I wasn't fully complying with the Aliens requirements-they ddn't elaborate on this, but I figure they were referring to the bit of my email where I said I had not fitted into any of the boxes for registering my right of residence when I came here, so had had no choice but to go down the sambo route-which as you say is different.

So their reply wasn't as much use as I thought it was. It's looking more and more like my original route (sambo) was the right one to go down, and that I just have to sit nicely and wait for my extension.

Mind you, this is causing a fair bit of stress on the household because we have my son and his medical needs and appointments to cope with, and if all this is effectively up in the air, that's an extra stress we don't need. I wonder if this is worth making a point of to MV?

Posted by: mångk 7.Mar.2013, 11:44 AM

QUOTE (JulieLou40 @ 7.Mar.2013, 11:26 AM) *
Mind you, this is causing a fair bit of stress on the household because we have my son and his medical needs and appointments to cope with, and if all this is effectively up in the air, that's an extra stress we don't need. I wonder if this is worth making a point of to MV?

You can make mention of this and they may prioritise your application, but during the time you are waiting for the extension you still have pretty much the same rights as before. There is one exception, but that doesn't really apply to EU citizens.

Posted by: zacost 14.Mar.2013, 10:18 PM

Your case is really weird and quite unique for an EU national. All you needed as an EU national was just to get your PN, find work to pay your bills (or live off your savings) and move on with your life. You dont even need to visit MV for anything since EU passport gives you all THE RIGHTS within any EU member state excepting getting involve in NATIONAL politics. MV job is based solely on issuing (VISA PERMIT) and you dont need it! Where would they stamp it in your passport??? SV is the only place for EU member and maybe the WORK agency.

The golden rule to move and live in EU countries is to find work (to get income) as soon as you enter the country. This is to avoid attracting many EU jobless people overcrowding other welfare systems (regarless of being married or having Sambo).The system refused to take care of my wife when she moved with me in Sweden (yet I am Swedish).

Its rather very unusual to see an EU member with migrations problems! Being an EU national "AUTOMATICALLY" gives you the right to stay for as long as you want in any EU member state providing that you work for the very first months after you have entered that country. This is a fundamental rule based on the EU very own existence.

Good luck in the future.

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