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The Swedish dream was always too good to be true.

And now the far right is back

Bsmith
post 21.May.2019, 08:16 PM
Post #76
Joined: 25.Jun.2009

And you act as if you are a pseudo-intellectual ass.
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john.boy
post 21.May.2019, 11:04 PM
Post #77
Location: Stockholm county
Joined: 27.Sep.2017

QUOTE (Saywhatwhat @ 20.May.2019, 11:58 AM) *
In the case of Sweden, they didn’t change their rules when the time came to investigate and prosecute all the nazi war criminals that were living free and wealthy in Sweden.

Personal morality aside, Sweden did have a very valid reason, by which was that the statute of limitations was a maximum of 25 years and they said it would not be right to change that to prosecute retrospectively. Just think what abuse of power that door could open!

QUOTE (nativeswedishengineer @ 21.May.2019, 07:48 PM) *
Speculate all you want. Nazi Germany had plenty of iron ore available in occupied france.

The issue that is often forgotten is that Sweden relied on German coal far far more than Germany ever relied upon Swedish iron ore. It was about continued survival.
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Gamla Hälsingebock
post 21.May.2019, 11:55 PM
Post #78
Joined: 21.Dec.2006

Yes French coal did make a big difference because the Swedes through agreement with the Allies reduced its ore delivery to Germany to 1939 levels... before the war...

None of the "bashers" will admit it but the Allies sympathized with Sweden because for one she was surrounded on all sides by countries occupied by Germany and was blockaded by the Germans and the Allies themselves...

Again I commend the Swedish government for keeping the country safe and its peoples unharmed...

It seems the "bashers" here want to see Swedes dead, then they will be happy...Bastards!!! angry.gif
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Gjeebes
post 22.May.2019, 03:16 AM
Post #79
Joined: 20.Feb.2012

"And you act as if you are a pseudo-intellectual ass."

Meeeeooooowwwwwww!!
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Saywhatwhat
post 22.May.2019, 06:51 AM
Post #80
Joined: 15.Feb.2018

QUOTE (john.boy @ 22.May.2019, 12:04 AM) *
Personal morality aside, Sweden did have a very valid reason, by which was that the statute of limitations was a maximum of 25 years and they said it would not be right to cha ... (show full quote)


Sweden relied on oil supplied by the allies. The allies considered letting Sweden fall into economic plight by cutting off their imported oil and rubber. They would do this unless Sweden slowed down its trade of iron ore to Germany, stop transporting their soldiers, stop escorting German ships through the Baltic and stop using Swedish ships to covertly supply Germany with resources.


What abuse of power would that open? Sweden had time within that 25 years to do something but they chose not to. Also, other countries had statutes of limitation which they got rid of when dealing with the investigation and prosecution of war criminals. That’s the great thing with amending or even writing laws... you can make them specific.

Sweden could have easily lifted that 25 yr limit when it came to war criminals. As stated before, it would have been a symbolic act to show the world where Sweden really stands... but instead they showed the world where they stand... a lack of willingness to prosecute war criminals... even to this day with isis members.

So... valid... I think not.

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock @ 22.May.2019, 12:55 AM) *
Yes French coal did make a big difference because the Swedes through agreement with the Allies reduced its ore delivery to Germany to 1939 levels... before the war...None of t ... (show full quote)


First of all, you are way off in thinking “bashers” want swedes dead. I would more say “critics” want Sweden to own up to the other half of history that isn’t drowned out by the light of “Swedish goodness” which is of swedes own, unfounded, making.

Secondly, it is recognized that Sweden did what it did for survival. Just as it is recognized that even though there was no longer a threat, Sweden continued supplying the nazi war effort at the same rate it did at the beginning of the war. Just as it’s recognized that Sweden accepted, and tried to cover up, looted Jewish gold as payment from Germans.

Just wondering if you can recognize that all of Sweden’s concessions to Germany were not for survival but rather support and $$$.

Swedes are definitely no “good guy” and they should be ashamed like all other nations who participate in the atrocities of war, “neutral” or not.
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Saywhatwhat
post 22.May.2019, 07:04 AM
Post #81
Joined: 15.Feb.2018

QUOTE (nativeswedishengineer @ 21.May.2019, 08:48 PM) *
Speculate all you want. Nazi Germany had plenty of iron ore available in occupied france.


That isn’t just my speculation but the speculation of many experts past and present that had Sweden slowed down the supply of iron ore that the nazi war effort would have ended sooner.

it is well known that Swedish iron ore and ball bearings greatly improved the nazis war effort.

Put it this way... your local grocery store closes. You now have to travel further to get your products and the products aren’t the same nor can you get everything you are used to. Your eating habits will begin to change.
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skogsbo
post 22.May.2019, 07:40 AM
Post #82
Joined: 20.Sep.2011

If Sweden's actions were making a critical difference then the British forces and local resistance would have destroyed the factories and transport lines. Just as they did in Norway, with multiple raids on Rjukan, various factories and several ports(where ports or towns were temporarily captured) along the west coast, some civilian casualties were considered acceptable due to the critical need to stop production.
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Saywhatwhat
post 22.May.2019, 11:18 AM
Post #83
Joined: 15.Feb.2018

QUOTE (skogsbo @ 22.May.2019, 08:40 AM) *
If Sweden's actions were making a critical difference then the British forces and local resistance would have destroyed the factories and transport lines. Just as they did ... (show full quote)


????

You think the allies raiding and bombing Sweden would have been a good idea?

Uh, no.

There were diplomatic attempts, blockades, and threats of prolonged blockades all to get the Swedes to stop making so many concessions to the nazis and slow down their iron ore supply... eventually, EVENTUALLY, they slowed down... well past the threat of nazi invasion.
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skogsbo
post 22.May.2019, 12:34 PM
Post #84
Joined: 20.Sep.2011

QUOTE (Saywhatwhat @ 22.May.2019, 10:18 AM) *
????You think the allies raiding and bombing Sweden would have been a good idea? Uh, no.There were diplomatic attempts, blockades, and threats of prolonged blockades all to ge ... (show full quote)

If the allied forces needed to, they would and did. Lots of civilians died elsewhere, and as I said they struck in other Nordic nations when they had to. The human losses in south east Europe where they fought for access for oil shows this. Also if sweden was so critical there was nothing stopping Stalin marching right across Finland and into sweden. You making sweden out to be a lynch pin when it certainly wasn't.
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intrepidfox
post 22.May.2019, 12:39 PM
Post #85
Location: Gothenburg
Joined: 18.Jul.2012

The Wallenberg family were the worst. Double dealing with both sides. Forget Raoul (the so called hero) he only helped friends families and company directors to get out Hungary.
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Gjeebes
post 22.May.2019, 04:07 PM
Post #86
Joined: 20.Feb.2012

"then the British forces and local resistance would have destroyed the factories and transport lines"

The Yanks wanted to bomb Piteå and other locations but Churchill wouldn't permit it, presumably due to them also needing ore.

Bombing of Rjukan was to take out heavy water production at the electrical plant, to remove a key ingredient required by Heisenberg to build the bomb.

As the cowardly Swedes shook in their boots, whilst counting their profits, the rest of the world joined forces to do something against Hitler.

The Soviets paid the highest price of all, >20 million dead.

I am happy to be able to say Canada also did its part and I for one am grateful for the sacrifices made.
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skogsbo
post 22.May.2019, 04:46 PM
Post #87
Joined: 20.Sep.2011

QUOTE (Gjeebes @ 22.May.2019, 03:07 PM) *
"then the British forces and local resistance would have destroyed the factories and transport lines"The Yanks wanted to bomb Piteå and other locations but Churchil ... (show full quote)

The British and norwegian resistance all took out norwegian ports and other factories not just heavy water plants. The grand father of a friend here was in the resistance around rjukan. The reality of what happened is a bit grim compared to the old movies. Norwegian tv did a good programme about it a couple of years ago.

Would agree with you, the Soviets paid in blood, there is no doubt there.

It's strange because just how ruthless and evil the Japanese were, doesn't seem to carry the same stigma today that Nazi Germany still does. Whilst the Japanese didn't have a cleansing programme, they had zero respect for another nations military or civilians as prisoners etc..

Off back to the UK next week and by coincidence we have time for a few hours at the imperial war museum in Manchester. Chance to give the kids a more round view of the world.
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Bsmith
post 22.May.2019, 10:54 PM
Post #88
Joined: 25.Jun.2009

QUOTE (skogsbo @ 22.May.2019, 04:46 PM) *
It's strange because just how ruthless and evil the Japanese were, doesn't seem to carry the same stigma today that Nazi Germany still does. Whilst the Japanese didn&# ... (show full quote)




True, I've often thought the same.
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Gamla Hälsingebock
post 23.May.2019, 12:16 PM
Post #89
Joined: 21.Dec.2006

The population that bore a lot of Nazi cruelty did/does not have a lot of members in Asia and does not have the influence there as it does in the West...

And to my knowledge no single part of the Japanese population was a target/political enemy, although there will be people who disagree because of the atrocities in China...
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jannasanders
post 5.Jun.2019, 09:32 AM
Post #90
Joined: 5.Jun.2019

QUOTE (skogsbo @ 15.May.2019, 08:22 AM) *
Slavery still exists in just about every European country, be it living in a caravan picking fruit and veg, or on a zero hours contract in an Amazon warehouse. It might not th ... (show full quote)


Couldn't agree more. Sad to say, slavery is still rampant worldwide. sad.gif
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