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The Local _ Legal _ Amazon in Sweden

Posted by: Svedallas 18.Sep.2018, 09:44 PM

Amazon is opening in Sweden. But they are tax evaders.
How will this pan out for Sweden? Will they be able to create a monopoly?

Let's make this to a good discussion topic, and no visa talk or housing talk here please.

Posted by: Martian 19.Sep.2018, 01:03 AM

Hello Svedallas,
Will you marry me and give me visa? Can I also move in with you so that I can jump this crazy housing queue? tongue.gif

Back to the topic, Let's begin by you giving some reliable sources to substantiate your claim. I hope your sources are not from little fingers' tweets? Sweden is not a tax haven.

Posted by: skogsbo 19.Sep.2018, 05:53 AM

I don't think they'll come because the kinds of contracts and working conditions they operated in their warehouse just wouldn't be tolerated here. Delivery costs will be higher and might impact their UK style self employed zero hours contract Hermes style drivers too. Even if they weather the above employers tax contributions are higher too.

They'll dodge the tax buy saying the Amazon brand is owned by another company in Luxembourg and that Amazon sweden needs to hire it annually, which costs just a bit less than their annual profit here.

I really hope they don't come. The only winner in this model are Amazon shareholders.

Posted by: Mib 19.Sep.2018, 10:50 AM

Nobody is disputing Amazon is paying its legally obliged taxes. However, they are run on behalf of their shareholders and are required to maximise profits. Therefore, they employ very clever accountants and lawyers to pay the minimum amount of tax legally.

Morally is another question when it comes to taxes. If Corporation tax is say 25% on profits, then they should pay 25m on 100m profit. But due to their tax structure, they are able to pay probably 5% or even less. But the true test of these kind of legal tax avoidance practises is if Svensson AB who employs 20 people can do the same! If they cannot take advantage of the same tax privileges, then it's unfair.

Private equity companies are running GP and care services in Sweden and are taking the profits out of the country to pay less tax. So, you either change the system , which will be very difficult as this has to be done worldwide or you introduce a tax system in Sweden that replaces corporation tax with an online tax or business rates system based on turnover or some other measure.

Anyway, I think it would be great to have Amazon in the Nordics as it will bring jobs directly and indirectly, but then again, its competitors will likely lose a similar number due to the unfair competition due to the tax issue. If I was Svensson AB, I would use an advertising slogan like, "Do you want to fund services in Sweden, then buy from us. We keep our profits in Sweden." Competitors need to become more arrogant and think differently to counter Amazon. But there's an old saying, if you can't beat them, join them. So many businesses will have a store on Amazon to sell their goods.

Posted by: skogsbo 19.Sep.2018, 02:26 PM

QUOTE (Mib @ 19.Sep.2018, 09:50 AM) *
But there's an old saying, if you can't beat them, join them. So many businesses will have a store on Amazon to sell their goods.

A race to the bottom. Who can pay their drivers, their warehouse staff etc. the least possible, on the worst contract... to maximise profit.. then to minimise tax. Like the UK, the state tops up workers with benefits because wages are so low, but the state doesn't get the benefit of tax receipts from the employer. The only winner are Amazon shareholders in the long run.

Posted by: intrepidfox 19.Sep.2018, 02:41 PM

https://uppkopplat.se/2018/03/09/amazon-kommer-till-sverige-pa-black-friday-i-ar/

Posted by: Case officer 19.Sep.2018, 05:44 PM

QUOTE (Savage @ 19.Sep.2018, 11:03 AM) *
Personally, I am looking forward to amazon arriving.

Here is just a few reasons why.




In your dreams. We thought we were getting Netflix, instead they gave us Netflix Scandinavia. We thought we were getting HBO, instead they gave us HBO Nordic.

Posted by: Svedallas 19.Sep.2018, 07:10 PM

QUOTE (Mib @ 19.Sep.2018, 11:50 AM) *
Nobody is disputing Amazon is paying its legally obliged taxes. However, they are run on behalf of their shareholders and are required to maximise profits. Therefore, they employ very clever accountants and lawyers to pay the minimum amount of tax legally.

Morally is another question when it comes to taxes. If Corporation tax is say 25% on profits, then they should pay 25m on 100m profit. But due to their tax structure, they are able to pay probably 5% or even less. But the true test of these kind of legal tax avoidance practises is if Svensson AB who employs 20 people can do the same! If they cannot take advantage of the same tax privileges, then it's unfair.

Private equity companies are running GP and care services in Sweden and are taking the profits out of the country to pay less tax. So, you either change the system , which will be very difficult as this has to be done worldwide or you introduce a tax system in Sweden that replaces corporation tax with an online tax or business rates system based on turnover or some other measure.

Anyway, I think it would be great to have Amazon in the Nordics as it will bring jobs directly and indirectly, but then again, its competitors will likely lose a similar number due to the unfair competition due to the tax issue. If I was Svensson AB, I would use an advertising slogan like, "Do you want to fund services in Sweden, then buy from us. We keep our profits in Sweden." Competitors need to become more arrogant and think differently to counter Amazon. But there's an old saying, if you can't beat them, join them. So many businesses will have a store on Amazon to sell their goods.



QUOTE (intrepidfox @ 19.Sep.2018, 03:41 PM) *
https://uppkopplat.se/2018/03/09/amazon-kommer-till-sverige-pa-black-friday-i-ar/


Great posts! At last a visa and housing free thread! Kudos.

Amazon does NOT pay taxes. What they have is they have a loophole.
(Savage does not know how to use Google)

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/29/heres-the-controversial-tax-practice-by-amazon-thats-got-trump-so-upset.html

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tax-amazon/special-report-amazons-billion-dollar-tax-shield-idUSBRE8B50AR20121206

Amazon may create jobs and opportunities, but it will be at the sacrifice of the hundreds and thousands of startups and medium to large e-commerce business.

They will not be able to compete with the prices that amazon will offer, like faster shipping, amongst other competitive strategies they will use to push them out of the market.

Many of these startups are for some part, started because of high unemployment.
So this is a threat and will kill small business owners.

I have no need for products that are not Scandinavian. I support Scandinavian brands, and e-commerce sites. What products will Amazon offer that I cannot already get online?? That should be the question.

There are companies like net on net, apotea, mathem, asos, nelly, media makt etc
Who are dependant on their e-commerce sales, and who already create many jobs.
And these companies, also support other small businesses.

So yes, I am against Amazon. I have been fine without them. And will be happy without them. No matter how competitive they put their prices...I support existing swedish brands and e-commerce, solely to support the Swedish economy, and not an American billionaire.

Posted by: yet another brit 19.Sep.2018, 08:53 PM

Corporations avoid tax by selling tangible assets (eg buildings) or intangible assets (eg trademarks) to a foreign enterprise established somewhere where there is a more helpful tax regime, and then taking the tax deduction from renting/licencing them back. At scale, it is effective. Svensson AB can do it too, in theory...but...how to get the money back :-) ?

It will be interesting to see the currently proposed changes - reduced corporation tax, but reduced interest deductions for corporations - have an effect. They will have an effect on Svensson AB though, and it might be a positive one if he doesn't borrow money. But if Svensson wants to use significant debt to leverage expansion he might be worse off.

Posted by: Saywhatwhat 20.Sep.2018, 07:27 AM

QUOTE (Case officer @ 19.Sep.2018, 06:44 PM) *
In your dreams. We thought we were getting Netflix, instead they gave us Netflix Scandinavia. We thought we were getting HBO, instead they gave us HBO Nordic.


Lol. Right?

[quote name='Svedallas' date='19.Sep.2018, 08:10 PM' post='935740']
Great posts! At last a visa and housing free thread! Kudos.

Amazon does NOT pay taxes. What they have is they have a loophole.
(Savage does not know how to use Google)

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/29/heres-the-controversial-tax-practice-by-amazon-thats-got-trump-so-upset.html

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tax-amazon/special-report-amazons-billion-dollar-tax-shield-idUSBRE8B50AR20121206

Amazon may create jobs and opportunities, but it will be at the sacrifice of the hundreds and thousands of startups and medium to large e-commerce business.

They will not be able to compete with the prices that amazon will offer, like faster shipping, amongst other competitive strategies they will use to push them out of the market.

Many of these startups are for some part, started because of high unemployment.
So this is a threat and will kill small business owners.

I have no need for products that are not Scandinavian. I support Scandinavian brands, and e-commerce sites. What products will Amazon offer that I cannot already get online?? That should be the question.

There are companies like net on net, apotea, mathem, asos, nelly, media makt etc
Who are dependant on their e-commerce sales, and who already create many jobs.
And these companies, also support other small businesses.

So yes, I am against Amazon. I have been fine without them. And will be happy without them. No matter how competitive they put their prices...I support existing swedish brands and e-commerce, solely to support the Swedish economy, and not an American billionaire.
[/


I haven’t looked into any news of amazon coming to Sweden. I haven’t looked into any news of how they operate. I rarely use it other than browsing used books.

Aren’t they more of a consolidating entity of e commerce for large and small businesses? They have their own products but wouldn’t they also have things from netonnet or mediamarket or all other Swedish brands?

In the other countries amazon operates have they been damaging other businesses small or large?


And like case officer said, they might have some wacky Swedish tailored version of amazon like Netflix or hbo. Pretty much the same but still different enough to slightly piss one off.

Posted by: skogsbo 20.Sep.2018, 09:12 AM

The days of Amazon being shop front for other shops are long gone. Such is their scale they buy in bulk from the manufacturers, employ thousand on low in huge warehouses etc. They kill local business. Because the wages are so low, their employees still get welfare benefits. States are in effect subsidising Amazon shareholder profits or dividends.

Posted by: Mib 20.Sep.2018, 03:22 PM

QUOTE (skogsbo @ 20.Sep.2018, 10:12 AM) *
The days of Amazon being shop front for other shops are long gone. Such is their scale they buy in bulk from the manufacturers, employ thousand on low in huge warehouses etc. They kill local business. Because the wages are so low, their employees still get welfare benefits. States are in effect subsidising Amazon shareholder profits or dividends.


I would say, it's growing. It's become a storefront to many small businesses, like Ebay. Even Marks & Spencers have some of their products on there and their former digital director has suggested they use them more. It's like Amazon's Web Services. They've optimised it to the point that it doesn't make financial sense for some companies to create their own equivalent system. The same seems to be happening now with the Amazon store being used as a storefront for many retailers. It makes financial sense with all of the infrastructure, delivery services etc already in the backend. Therefore, cheaper to set up and launch.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 20.Sep.2018, 03:43 PM

FYI...

Amazon was once a start-up too!!!

It was years before it turned a profit!!!

And due to its success and the fact that its low prices are a boon to consumers, it is now looked on as a pariah and job/opportunity killer...

So much for the economic dream of working hard and being successful!!!

Communism rules!!! rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Saywhatwhat 20.Sep.2018, 05:48 PM

My question is... When will amazon have their own news network? Or Netflix? Who will be first?

Posted by: Bsmith 21.Sep.2018, 10:30 AM

If Amazon determines that there is profit to be made in Sweden, it will come. There will be both positive and negative effects. End of story.

Posted by: Svedallas 21.Sep.2018, 04:40 PM

QUOTE (Bsmith @ 21.Sep.2018, 11:30 AM) *
If Amazon determines that there is profit to be made in Sweden, it will come. There will be both positive and negative effects. End of story.


But that is also what Dunkin Donuts said.
They shut down a few months ago.

Their timing is off. People already have their favorite e-commerce stores.
I definitely will not be using them. There is nothing that they are offering that I cannot already get.

Posted by: Svedallas 21.Sep.2018, 05:40 PM

QUOTE (Saywhatwhat @ 20.Sep.2018, 06:48 PM) *
My question is... When will amazon have their own news network? Or Netflix? Who will be first?


They already do.

But online tv market is too saturated. There is SVT, Dplay, hbo nordic, viafree...and a bunch of new ones that came out. No one is willing to pay more than netflix.

Waste of time watching amazon network, whatever its called.

Posted by: Saywhatwhat 21.Sep.2018, 09:32 PM

QUOTE (Savage @ 21.Sep.2018, 06:13 PM) *
I don't think you can compare a donut store, to a giant eCommerce site.


Sure you can. They are both multi billiOn dolllar companies who are very successful in markets outside of Sweden.

Whoever compared them made perfect sense. However successful a company is doesn’t matter when they go to fill a demand that isn’t there.

I don’t know how badly people want amazon in Sweden. They’ve been fine without it.

I’m sure amazon is business savvy enough to figure out what is best for amazon.

QUOTE (Svedallas @ 21.Sep.2018, 06:40 PM) *
They already do.

But online tv market is too saturated. There is SVT, Dplay, hbo nordic, viafree...and a bunch of new ones that came out. No one is willing to pay more than netflix.

Waste of time watching amazon network, whatever its called.



I know they have a network, amazon prime, but I just wonder when they will have their own NEWS network. There are jokes of amazon taking over the world so I would find it fitting for them to add their own news network in that quest. They or Apple will have a news network within 5 years is my guess.

Posted by: john.boy 21.Sep.2018, 11:21 PM

QUOTE (Saywhatwhat @ 21.Sep.2018, 10:32 PM) *
I don’t know how badly people want amazon in Sweden. They’ve been fine without it.

What an odd statement. You seem to think that people don't already buy from Amazon!
I have been using Amazon for years, depending upon exchange rates I use either the .de (now available in English), .co.uk, and even for certain things when the dollar was really bad .com with shipping from the USA. Always found the items I wanted cheaper than Swedish based sellers.

The coming to Sweden will be most likely the opening of a distribution center since they have quite a lot of business with the Nordics already, mainly shipping from Germany at the moment. Last study my company did showed that best place for distribution center to reach all Nordic locations within 24 hours was Jonköping, though also OK around Eskilstuna. They will just be maximising profitability by reducing logistics costs.

Wouldn't surprise me either if they want to put some of their data centers here, take advantage of the special tax rate for electricity that was extended to companies establishing data centers, not so long ago. (i.e. a sweetner for Facebook and others)

Posted by: skogsbo 22.Sep.2018, 06:12 AM

Yeah. Jönköping has become the distribution capital. There are huge areas already cleared of forest for future construction. The downside for there is it might seem great now, but most warehouses could operate people free in the very near future.

Posted by: Saywhatwhat 22.Sep.2018, 07:08 AM

QUOTE (john.boy @ 22.Sep.2018, 12:21 AM) *
What an odd statement. You seem to think that people don't already buy from Amazon!
I have been using Amazon for years, depending upon exchange rates I use either the .de (now available in English), .co.uk, and even for certain things when the dollar was really bad .com with shipping from the USA. Always found the items I wanted cheaper than Swedish based sellers.

The coming to Sweden will be most likely the opening of a distribution center since they have quite a lot of business with the Nordics already, mainly shipping from Germany at the moment. Last study my company did showed that best place for distribution center to reach all Nordic locations within 24 hours was Jonköping, though also OK around Eskilstuna. They will just be maximising profitability by reducing logistics costs.

Wouldn't surprise me either if they want to put some of their data centers here, take advantage of the special tax rate for electricity that was extended to companies establishing data centers, not so long ago. (i.e. a sweetner for Facebook and others)


Not so odd considering you prove my point. Even though you use amazon you are still fine without a Swedish based one.

Items have really been cheaper once shipping to Sweden is included? I know there’s items on .uk or .de or .com that won’t even ship to Sweden.

Posted by: Bsmith 22.Sep.2018, 11:16 AM

QUOTE (Svedallas @ 21.Sep.2018, 04:40 PM) *
There is nothing that they are offering that I cannot already get.




And that is about the most effective method of voting available to us, our wallets.

Posted by: john.boy 22.Sep.2018, 02:11 PM

QUOTE (Saywhatwhat @ 22.Sep.2018, 08:08 AM) *
Not so odd considering you prove my point. Even though you use amazon you are still fine without a Swedish based one.

Au contraire, if establishing here means they can offer even cheaper products then I for one certainly welcome the move, and encourage it.

QUOTE (Saywhatwhat @ 22.Sep.2018, 08:08 AM) *
Items have really been cheaper once shipping to Sweden is included?

There was a period when shipping to Sweden was free. I suspect they did that to build a more defined customer base, and took it away once they decided they would establish a real presence here.
QUOTE (Saywhatwhat @ 22.Sep.2018, 08:08 AM) *
I know there’s items on .uk or .de or .com that won’t even ship to Sweden.

That's the world of distribution rights and agencies. It is probably a safe bet that you have no experience around this area.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 22.Sep.2018, 02:57 PM

Amazon is forward thinking and innovative...In the future, your favorite six pack will be delivered to your door by a drone...Just think...No more beer runs!!!

What an energy saver!!! laugh.gif

Posted by: Saywhatwhat 22.Sep.2018, 02:58 PM

QUOTE (john.boy @ 22.Sep.2018, 03:11 PM) *
Au contraire, if establishing here means they can offer even cheaper products then I for one certainly welcome the move, and encourage it.


There was a period when shipping to Sweden was free. I suspect they did that to build a more defined customer base, and took it away once they decided they would establish a real presence here.

That's the world of distribution rights and agencies. It is probably a safe bet that you have no experience around this area.



Yea, you bet correctly. That’s amazing there was a point when shipping to Sweden was free! When was that and for how long did it exist?

Well, only time will tell what happens with amazOn in Sweden

Posted by: Saywhatwhat 22.Sep.2018, 03:08 PM

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock @ 22.Sep.2018, 03:57 PM) *
Amazon is forward thinking and innovative...In the future, your favorite six pack will be delivered to your door by a drone...Just think...No more beer runs!!!

What an energy saver!!! laugh.gif



They tried that, I think, and it was banned... possibly because of air traffic laws. Not entirely sure.

I heard that they have considered a physical presence as a retail store.

Posted by: Svedallas 22.Sep.2018, 03:43 PM

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock @ 22.Sep.2018, 03:57 PM) *
Amazon is forward thinking and innovative...In the future, your favorite six pack will be delivered to your door by a drone...Just think...No more beer runs!!!

What an energy saver!!! laugh.gif


Ha! that would never happen.
Systembolaget.

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