Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

The Local _ International affairs _ Islam the religion of peace and tolerance

Posted by: Gjeebes 11.Jul.2017, 03:17 PM

Maybe this will finally show the PG morons what Islam is all about.

https://www.thenational.ae/world/death-threats-against-berlin-s-liberal-mosque-1.92077

http://dailycaller.com/2017/07/02/germany-offers-unprecedented-police-protection-to-woman-behind-liberal-mosque/

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/10629/germany-liberal-islam

http://www.dw.com/en/berlin-woman-risks-life-for-liberal-mosque/av-39544119

Posted by: Bsmith 11.Jul.2017, 07:44 PM

All those "co-exist" libs out there who think Islam is just like any other religion have no idea how backward the religion truly is.

Posted by: intrepidfox 11.Jul.2017, 07:48 PM

Don´t forget Mohammed was a pedophile having his disgusting way with Aisha when she was 9. These morons follow his teachings. No wonder there are so many rapes

Posted by: Gjeebes 12.Jul.2017, 07:20 AM

One of my mentors is Catholic. He prays, he attends church, and in fact, he is in charge of UNICEF for a rather large swath of country.

Does anyone know this? NO! This is because he is not in your face telling you how "virtuous" and "good" he is etc etc. He does not preach. He doesn't need "your" validation, "your" acceptance. It is for him, personal, private, and he is, most impressively of all, not even subtly "smug", about anything. I have found out these things over 20 years, and none of it because he was "virtue bragging" or "looking down his nose", as many "religious people" tend to do.

In my mind, this is how it should be as far as any religion is concerned. Do it for yourself, and keep it to yourself. It should not be used as some platform to judge others.

I also have an ex-colleague whom became a Minister/Priest, a nice guy, and very "down-to-earth". He told me, his biggest problem, is his ageing congregation and their bad habit of snubbing anyone who doesn't do as they do - come to think of it, socially, atheist Sweden behaves in exactly the same way - its just that their religion is "the Do-Gooder Cult" instead of "Christianity".

Islam, has many many "flavours", just like Christianity. Islam, is not "unified" to such an extent that "Christianity" with all its "flavours" would appear, relatively, to be rather unified by comparison.

I know "Muslim" guys, who in my mind, do it "right". They don't care if you know they are, or, are not. They do not push their views on anyone. They simply exist and follow what they think is their true way, just like my mentor, at least, this is my view. One in particular is from Peshawar, one of the most dangerous cities in the world, and he is not a refugee (came here to study, which he has done, and is now working), what he is, is a nice guy, trying to get away from all the "shit at home". He obeys for example no drugs, no drink and fasts during Ramadan, but he also doesn't care what you do, Islam is for him, and he very much tolerates others who don't do as he does.

As for the stories told, there are also unflattering things in Christianity, right? Wasn't Mary rumoured to be a "whore" for example? I do not mean this in a distasteful manner (believe it or not) but just to indicate that Islam, with all its faults, shares some "negatives" with Christianity, at least in some ways.

I don't agree with "Snake-handlers", Mormons, Jahovah's Witnesses or many other "flavours" of Christianity (and boy there are many), very much. I also don't know much about Islam, but it has as many if not more flavours.

Does a "Snake-handler" speak for all of Christianity? Do Mormons? In the same way, I don't think ISIS version of Islam, in any way shape or form, speaks for ALL of Islam.

Wahhabists and Salfists are not "the Islam" any more than a Snake-handler would say it represents all of Christianity. There are "ultra-conservative" sects of Christianity and Islam, and likely any other religion. ANY COUNTRY DOING BUSINESS WITH SAUDI ARABIA, FOR 1 EXAMPLE ONLY, IS ESSENTIALLY TURNING A BLIND EYE TO ITS VERY "NON-SECRET" WORLD-WIDE PROMOTION OF WAHHABI ISLAM!!!!

Don't get me wrong either. I am trying to tolerate philosophically "Islam", but more in the sense I tolerate (for lack of a better word) Catholics (for example since they tend to be in the runnings for "ultra-conservative", at least go to Ireland if you want to know this).

I don't want all the problems Islam seems to bring with it. Definitely not. And I will be happy when I stop hearing what ISIS is doing, as well as their idiot brain-washed terror "sheep". But I also don't want all the problems of Palestine and Israel either.

Posted by: Bsmith 12.Jul.2017, 11:52 AM

You have to separate the person from the religion. Muslims are people, some good, some bad. Christians are people, some good, some bad. Jews are people...etc. Most people follow the religion of their parents/homeland. If I had been born in the ME, most likely I would be a Muslim.

Consequently, I don't have a problem with Muslims per se but I think that Islam is not the religion of peace that it pretends to be. It is often backward, intolerant and violent. As we see in the article that you have posted, reforms are not easily tolerated. Perhaps, down the road, Islam can become a force for good but in its present state, I have to agree with the Japanese who feel it is a destabilizing force and do not allow it to flourish in their country.

Posted by: BhuBhuKaZoo 12.Jul.2017, 01:46 PM

QUOTE (Bsmith @ 12.Jul.2017, 12:52 PM) *
You have to separate the person from the religion. Muslims are people, some good, some bad. Christians are people, some good, some bad. Jews are people...etc. Most people follow the religion of their parents/homeland. If I had been born in the ME, most likely I would be a Muslim.

Consequently, I don't have a problem with Muslims per se but I think that Islam is not the religion of peace that it pretends to be. It is often backward, intolerant and violent. As we see in the article that you have posted, reforms are not easily tolerated. Perhaps, down the road, Islam can become a force for good but in its present state, I have to agree with the Japanese who feel it is a destabilizing force and do not allow it to flourish in their country.



Come on Bsmith.

Islam is highly prevalent in Asia. But, like you said - its important to differentiate between the religion and the people. But to say the faith is intolerant. No. That is wrong.

The faith, like any faith on this planet stems from a book. The book only provides away to find peace and enlightenment. It doesn't act as laws. This is frequently where people get confused. Yes, Sharia law is there, but this is no more laws than the ten commandments. They have different processes but fundamentally they are the same.

It's important also to realise that with Islam, it is a faith practisced mainly in the Emerging and Frontier markets. These are generally the poorest nations and it is there where you will find the least educated. Here - I will use India for example, there are old man in villages are effectively the judicial system for an entire state. They dish out punishments such as stoning for infidelity. This is not to do with Islam (India is largely Hindu and even in a Village in North India, there are Sikh men doing exactly the same things) but a lack of education and a stagnant culture.

We in the west can see it is barbaric as we are educated to see that negatives of this action. We have grown and seen how backwards it is. But a man who is 70 from a village that has never met a foreigner only see's someone from a different world. India (which is largely Hindu) has major issues with this. Similarly, large swaths of Africa experience that same (with some adhering to Islam and others to Christianity).

As these cultures develop, the actions and ideals that many in the West see as directly linked to the Islam, will change. The internet has given women a voice in these countries. The young who are growing up in this countries are seeing that the culture needs to change.

The question that you have is therefore not about Islam changing, but those countries developing into more socially progressive societies where race, class and gender are not pre-judged.

Religion is used frequently to justify these practices but it is age-old culture that is the real reason.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 12.Jul.2017, 03:25 PM

The mention of India and it's religions is a prime example of people not getting along...After the British left and India was independent it split along religious lines because the religion of peace did not want to live among Hindus...

Pakistan was born and millions of Muslims came from Hindu regions to it and in the new Pakistan millions of Hindus fled to India...They had to!!!

It was the largest migration of people in the history of the world...

Quite peaceful, yes???

Posted by: Bsmith 12.Jul.2017, 03:53 PM

QUOTE (BhuBhuKaZoo @ 12.Jul.2017, 12:46 PM) *
Come on Bsmith.

But to say the faith is intolerant. No. That is wrong.

The faith, like any faith on this planet stems from a book.



I hear what you are saying and I am not trying to get into a religious pissing contest. However, the reason that I feel that Islam is intolerant is because of how it treats other religions:

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/culture-civilization/religion/islam/can-we-talk-about-muslim-intolerance-kristof-religious-persecution-terrorism/


As you say, Islamic faith stems from a book, the Koran, which has very specific rules on how to deal with non-Muslims.


https://www.politicalislam.com/sharia-law-for-non-muslims-chapter-5-the-kafir/

Posted by: Gjeebes 13.Jul.2017, 07:59 AM

Yes, while there are people who just happen to be Muslim (who are not a problem), there is "political Islam" and "Muslim Brotherhood" that IS a problem, even without ISIS.

What the "West" doesn't seem to realise due to a fashionable "idiot-progressiveness" is that neither belong in the West.

Somehow, practising Muslims (at least, a majority of them, it would seem) think it is their right, to have, everything Islamic, just as they had in their home countries. And somehow (deceptive Muslim Brotherhood), they are organised, and quite cleverly "use" Western openness as a weapon against itself (deceptive Muslim Brotherhood's sole agenda). That is a problem.

Weak-minded countries like Sweden seem to bow to this (Muslim Brotherhood well established yet Swedes claim they are not in Sweden, a claim usually perpetuated by Swedish politicians and academics who are directly connected to the Muslim Brotherhood), as it is thought to be one of the ultimate gestures to collect big "virtue-signalling" reward points. Artificial, and narrow-minded? [rhetorical]

We have marches in Sweden to mark Krystal Nacht, without inviting that group whom suffered as a result of it.[arrogant] We have the mistaken "racism" when someone isn't down with the "religious" programme being forced. [uneducated]

The guys I was mentioning, and there are surely more of them, have no apparent interest in changing the political and religious landscape of their new found homes, and are in fact, quite disgusted by ISIS and many more. These aren't troublemakers. And they cannot tolerate anything the Muslim Brotherhood represents. [home countries ruined by Muslim Brotherhood control]

But there are many troublemakers, who rely on use of the victim card, in the context of Western democracy, who very craftily, start to wriggle their way into religious issues, politics and "charter-rights" issues (for countries that have one).

This is dangerous, and it has begun. 20 years ago, problems related to Islam were dominating some distant land, people were aware, but not really affected. Now, hardly a day goes by without the mention of Islam, either as victims being "persecuted" in their new lands, or, as terrorists.

And on the last note, something I read was asking the question that if the Islamist terror acts of today, should not be depicted as an "Islamic problem" (as many Western governments are idiotically trying to convince us), then why are Islamic communities not denouncing it, as other communities do?

It is an interesting question.

In another piece, "political Islamist" movements were compared with the rise of other "problematic" ideologies, with post-war Soviet philosophy being a good example.

As with "post-war Soviet philosophy", there should be studies taking place "now" to understand what "political Islam" is, and what it can be expected to do, and how we can expect to "combat it".

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/06/24/canada-needs-a-coherent-policy-to-tackle-the-islamist-agenda (replace Canada for "Western democracies):

"Back in 1946, George Kennan, an American foreign service officer based in Moscow, submitted what’s now known as the Long Telegram to the State Department.

It was an 8,000 word document that detailed the post-war Soviet philosophy, how they planned to export that philosophy across the world and what the U.S. should do to combat it."

"Without such a unifying policy driving the West’s response to the USSR, the Cold War and the 20th century’s experiment with Communism could have turned out very differently."

"“Our first step must be to apprehend, and recognize for what it is, the nature of the movement with which we are dealing,” Kennan writes in the memo. “We must study it with the same courage, detachment, objectivity, and same determination not to be emotionally provoked or unseated by it, with which a doctor studies an unruly and unreasonable individual.”"

Why is this not being done for political Islam, the (extremely deceptive) Muslim Brotherhood and their "philosophies", and the rise of all of them, in the West?

Posted by: BhuBhuKaZoo 13.Jul.2017, 09:03 AM

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock @ 12.Jul.2017, 04:25 PM) *
The mention of India and it's religions is a prime example of people not getting along...After the British left and India was independent it split along religious lines because the religion of peace did not want to live among Hindus...

Pakistan was born and millions of Muslims came from Hindu regions to it and in the new Pakistan millions of Hindus fled to India...They had to!!!

It was the largest migration of people in the history of the world...

Quite peaceful, yes???


I should probably point out that I am Sikh. And I fully understand the repercussions of the decision to split India into what it is now. Punjab (the state that is the spiritual home of Sikhism) suffered at the hands of it and Sikh's more so.

And in actual fact, although India gained it's independence, the Pakistan and India border that was drawn up was not without input from the British. You have to understand the history. Hindu's, Sikhs, Gujarati and several other religions (India is one of the most religiously diverse countries in the world) wanted their independence from each other. And Muslims were looked down upon and wanted the opportunity to govern themselves (most of them resided in what is known now as Pakistan.

When the division occurred, Hindu's and Sikhs carried out atrocities against each other. It was just muslims. The inherent distrust was between Hindu's, Sikh's and Muslims (which if you meet them, the "elders" will always quote that you "can't trust a muslim") is because there was a silent agreement never to attack a holy place...and then there was an attack on a temple in North India. It was condemned but some Hindu's and Sikhs then took it upon themselves to hunt down Muslims in India and murder them.

Neither is right. The war is ongoing and things are still not peaceful there. But there are issues with both sides - and I am Indian.

Like I said before, it's easy to blame Muslims, but they are only part to blame. India's are equally culpable.

Look at what Hindu's (a traditionally peaceful religion) did to Sikh's after Indira Ghandi was assassinated. Doesn't matter what religion it is - the people who perpetuate the crime are still people.

The religion only provides an excuse.

QUOTE (Bsmith @ 12.Jul.2017, 04:53 PM) *
I hear what you are saying and I am not trying to get into a religious pissing contest. However, the reason that I feel that Islam is intolerant is because of how it treats other religions:

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/culture-civilization/religion/islam/can-we-talk-about-muslim-intolerance-kristof-religious-persecution-terrorism/


As you say, Islamic faith stems from a book, the Koran, which has very specific rules on how to deal with non-Muslims.


https://www.politicalislam.com/sharia-law-for-non-muslims-chapter-5-the-kafir/


This is not necessarily correct. Islam actually does teach tolerance. And in a lot of ways, it teaches much the same tolerances as the other books of Abraham (Judaism and Christianity).

And it doesn't have specific "rules" - in fact is has this actually written in the Qur'an:

“O you who do not believe! I worship not what you worship, and you are not worshipping what I worship; nor am 1 worshipping what you wor­ship; neither -art you worshipping what I worship. Therefore, to you your religion; and to me my religion!” (chap. 109)

A bit more history:

“(And as for My messenger,) there is no (obligation) on him except to deliver (the. message). God knows what yon expose and what conceal”. (5:99).

Once the people of Mecca said to Prophet Muhammad that if god did not want them to worship idols then why He does not forcefully prevent them from doing so. Then God sent the following message:

“(O Muhammad) This is not a new excuse; those who weft before, them made, the same excuses. Is there anything upon the messengers except the dear conveying of the message”. (16: 35).

So we see that from the Qur'anic point of view, the mission of the prophets and messengers of God was not to forcefully impose their teachings on the people but to guide them and ask them to accept God with their own will, in one revelation, God says to Prophet Muhammad:

"But if the people turn away (then do not be sad because) We did ma sent you to be a guardian over them. It is for you only to deliver the mes­sage." (42:43).

The Qur’an clearly says that reli­gion cannot be forced on anyone. It says,

"There is no compulsion in (accept­ing) the religion (of Islam)…”

This is a clear and correct interpretation of Islam. It can be convoluted by an evil and deranged mind just like anything (remember a few years ago video games were believed to be inspiring killings by young people?)!

Look, I am Sikh. I believe in tolerance of other religions. That is what the "Khalsa" teaches me and I believe the majority of Sikhs. But some people will convolute this in what ever way they wish. Does it make it right no, but is it the religions fault...of cause not.

The reason I get quite involved in this things is because where does it stop? You persecute one religious scripture, what stops you from persecuting another, and another? As a Sikh man, many people like me were often compared and thought to be Muslim after 7/7 in the UK. It's not a nice feeling. People telling you to go home and etc. All you see is persecution of a book - I see persecution of the people as a consequence.

The book is not the reason the hatred spreads. It is the people who believe in not adapting to the modern world, in a fair and equal way that are the issue. And in that, Islam is not the only issue. There are many who have beliefs that do not align with what we would consider morally right in the Western World.

Posted by: Bsmith 13.Jul.2017, 11:01 AM

QUOTE (Gjeebes @ 13.Jul.2017, 06:59 AM) *
Yes, while there are people who just happen to be Muslim (who are not a problem), there is "political Islam" and "Muslim Brotherhood" that IS a problem, even without ISIS.

What the "West" doesn't seem to realise due to a fashionable "idiot-progressiveness" is that neither belong in the West.

Somehow, practising Muslims (at least, a majority of them, it would seem) think it is their right, to have, everything Islamic, just as they had in their home countries. And somehow (deceptive Muslim Brotherhood), they are organised, and quite cleverly "use" Western openness as a weapon against itself (deceptive Muslim Brotherhood's sole agenda). That is a problem.

Weak-minded countries like Sweden seem to bow to this (Muslim Brotherhood well established yet Swedes claim they are not in Sweden, a claim usually perpetuated by Swedish politicians and academics who are directly connected to the Muslim Brotherhood), as it is thought to be one of the ultimate gestures to collect big "virtue-signalling" reward points. Artificial, and narrow-minded? [rhetorical]

We have marches in Sweden to mark Krystal Nacht, without inviting that group whom suffered as a result of it.[arrogant] We have the mistaken "racism" when someone isn't down with the "religious" programme being forced. [uneducated]

The guys I was mentioning, and there are surely more of them, have no apparent interest in changing the political and religious landscape of their new found homes, and are in fact, quite disgusted by ISIS and many more. These aren't troublemakers. And they cannot tolerate anything the Muslim Brotherhood represents. [home countries ruined by Muslim Brotherhood control]

But there are many troublemakers, who rely on use of the victim card, in the context of Western democracy, who very craftily, start to wriggle their way into religious issues, politics and "charter-rights" issues (for countries that have one).

This is dangerous, and it has begun. 20 years ago, problems related to Islam were dominating some distant land, people were aware, but not really affected. Now, hardly a day goes by without the mention of Islam, either as victims being "persecuted" in their new lands, or, as terrorists.

And on the last note, something I read was asking the question that if the Islamist terror acts of today, should not be depicted as an "Islamic problem" (as many Western governments are idiotically trying to convince us), then why are Islamic communities not denouncing it, as other communities do?

It is an interesting question.

In another piece, "political Islamist" movements were compared with the rise of other "problematic" ideologies, with post-war Soviet philosophy being a good example.

As with "post-war Soviet philosophy", there should be studies taking place "now" to understand what "political Islam" is, and what it can be expected to do, and how we can expect to "combat it".

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/06/24/canada-needs-a-coherent-policy-to-tackle-the-islamist-agenda (replace Canada for "Western democracies):

"Back in 1946, George Kennan, an American foreign service officer based in Moscow, submitted what’s now known as the Long Telegram to the State Department.

It was an 8,000 word document that detailed the post-war Soviet philosophy, how they planned to export that philosophy across the world and what the U.S. should do to combat it."

"Without such a unifying policy driving the West’s response to the USSR, the Cold War and the 20th century’s experiment with Communism could have turned out very differently."

"“Our first step must be to apprehend, and recognize for what it is, the nature of the movement with which we are dealing,” Kennan writes in the memo. “We must study it with the same courage, detachment, objectivity, and same determination not to be emotionally provoked or unseated by it, with which a doctor studies an unruly and unreasonable individual.”"

Why is this not being done for political Islam, the (extremely deceptive) Muslim Brotherhood and their "philosophies", and the rise of all of them, in the West?


The problem is that the politics of Islam and the religion are interwoven and cannot be separated.

Posted by: Bsmith 13.Jul.2017, 11:08 AM

QUOTE (BhuBhuKaZoo @ 13.Jul.2017, 08:03 AM) *
This is not necessarily correct. Islam actually does teach tolerance. And in a lot of ways, it teaches much the same tolerances as the other books of Abraham (Judaism and Christianity).


The beginning of the Koran teaches and preaches tolerance, the last part of the Koran does not. People cherry pick what they want to and use the verses that agree with their own feelings.

As you can see by current events that there are many Muslims that choose a peaceful route but there are others who choose jihad.

Posted by: BhuBhuKaZoo 13.Jul.2017, 11:34 AM

QUOTE (Bsmith @ 13.Jul.2017, 12:08 PM) *
The beginning of the Koran teaches and preaches tolerance, the last part of the Koran does not. People cherry pick what they want to and use the verses that agree with their own feelings.

As you can see by current events that there are many Muslims that choose a peaceful route but there are others who choose jihad.



That is fair. I won't deny that but its only through education that this can change. But it's all interpretation. I wouldn't say that the last part of the Qu'ran teaches intolerance. I would encourage rather than just reading the book - talking to clerics. Talking to religious people about what you have read and how they have interpreted it. You may see something horrible but perspective comes from actually meeting people who believe in it and how they interpret it. This is a massive issue right now. People do cherry pick and generalise lines they read, but fail to actually talk to religious people about those same lines for perspective and their thoughts!

And similarly - in terms of politics and religion - you could potentially say the same about the U.S? A lot of the laws such as LGBT and those against gay marriage are down to religious beliefs. So this is no different to the west.

However, we in the west have moved past religion. Developing and poorer countries have it interwoven as it is a more intrinsic belief in the system. That will change as the world and those countries develop.

Posted by: Gjeebes 13.Jul.2017, 12:14 PM

"People do cherry pick and generalise lines they read, but fail to actually talk to religious people about those same lines for perspective and their thoughts!"

Not so sure about that these days especially. Imams pay big time lip-service to tell a narrative that is predictably expected of them. This is often to keep the generosity of the non-Islamic host state flowing into their mosques. In essence, (some) Muslims have no problems lying about their real intentions, and there are plenty of interviews (see youtube) where the host nails this, and the person being interviewed can barely hold back yet does for convenience. Most of the "Islamic societies/institutions/clubs what have you, which are in effect just tentacles of the Muslim Brotherhood, will never admit it (proven).

"Developing and poorer countries have it interwoven as it is a more intrinsic belief in the system."

Really? So, the "holy cow" of Hindu persuasion...a "holy" directive for practitioners, or, a directive from those representing government (in the time of its origins), preventing slaughter of cattle (for good reason, but not for "holy" reasons), which instead of being eaten, served more purpose as beasts of burden on farms, thereby keeping food production at required levels.

"However, we in the west have moved past religion."

You certainly like your sweeping generalisations. This is absolutely not the case. Is your idea of "West" purely based on experiences in Sweden? Come on man!

Posted by: BhuBhuKaZoo 13.Jul.2017, 12:57 PM

QUOTE (Gjeebes @ 13.Jul.2017, 01:14 PM) *
"People do cherry pick and generalise lines they read, but fail to actually talk to religious people about those same lines for perspective and their thoughts!"

Not so sure about that these days especially. Imams pay big time lip-service to tell a narrative that is predictably expected of them. This is often to keep the generosity of the non-Islamic host state flowing into their mosques. In essence, (some) Muslims have no problems lying about their real intentions, and there are plenty of interviews (see youtube) where the host nails this, and the person being interviewed can barely hold back yet does for convenience. Most of the "Islamic societies/institutions/clubs what have you, which are in effect just tentacles of the Muslim Brotherhood, will never admit it (proven).

"Developing and poorer countries have it interwoven as it is a more intrinsic belief in the system."

Really? So, the "holy cow" of Hindu persuasion...a "holy" directive for practitioners, or, a directive from those representing government (in the time of its origins), preventing slaughter of cattle (for good reason, but not for "holy" reasons), which instead of being eaten, served more purpose as beasts of burden on farms, thereby keeping food production at required levels.

"However, we in the west have moved past religion."

You certainly like your sweeping generalisations. This is absolutely not the case. Is your idea of "West" purely based on experiences in Sweden? Come on man!



The first point is conjecture to me - my opinion obviously. But yeah, I don't truly believe that.

Second point - this was a law based on the fact that Cow's provided for the family and shouldn't be killed out of respect. There is basis in religion with that. Wasn't a logical reason as such. Its the same as Cow's having more respect than people in some places. Partly to do with there reverie in holy books.

Third point - you got me there hahaha! This is fair. I have grown up in the west and so that's what my experiences are based on (born in the U.K.) and having family and visiting India several times and working and volunteering in Africa when I was younger. That's were I base my generalisations on. But yes, I give you that they are generalisations.

Fundamentally, I don't agree that Islam is an evil religion as it is simply a belief system. I believe it is the person who should be judged for their actionS - not the belief system they adhere too. Similarly, if a person were a white supremacist, however much I don't agree with that belief system, it is a question of why people belief in that and making sure that person practices there beliefs without impinging on my freedoms (tough I know!)! It is not place to force my beliefs onto that person (as that is their freedom of thought) - all we can do as people is provide that person with information and debate those views.

If they change them, great - but if not. Then fine. You can't just shout at everyone who doesn't believe in what you do. Human nature makes people less likely to understand another point of view if they are attacked for it. Generally, you reaffirm that persons beliefs!

Posted by: Bsmith 13.Jul.2017, 03:16 PM

All religions attempt to bring more converts into the fold. Most do it by peaceful persuasion, but Islam has a history of conversion by the sword. Also, as Gjeebes mentions, clerics say one thing in public and another in private. They even have a name for it: taqiyya.

Again, I have met several nice Muslims and I try to not judge them based upon their beliefs as I feel that is a very personal decision. But I truly feel that Islam (in its current form) is not a good fit for the West. And I think current events support that.

Posted by: Gjeebes 13.Jul.2017, 03:33 PM

That is after-all what this thread was about.

While the view that Islam is not inherently "evil" is a very generous one, it seems to gloss over the fact that the female imam does now require 24 h police protection, due to numerous threats of "death" from abroad.

It is hardly unicorns with rainbow sprinkles.

The entire situation is pretty much self-explanatory, since the experiment that brought that on, was an initiation of "moderate Islam" in a Western country.

And excuses aside, it is what it is, even if there are rainbow renditions that attempt to "make happy" a very "sad" story.

Posted by: BhuBhuKaZoo 13.Jul.2017, 03:45 PM

QUOTE (Bsmith @ 13.Jul.2017, 04:16 PM) *
All religions attempt to bring more converts into the fold. Most do it by peaceful persuasion, but Islam has a history of conversion by the sword. Also, as Gjeebes mentions, clerics say one thing in public and another in private. They even have a name for it: taqiyya.

Again, I have met several nice Muslims and I try to not judge them based upon their beliefs as I feel that is a very personal decision. But I truly feel that Islam (in its current form) is not a good fit for the West. And I think current events support that.


And this, fundamentally needs to change. It shouldn't be about conversion. You don't need to be a clear follower of a religion to learn from the teachings. And I have heard this, again, this is an issue with Islam in the modern world - and I do agree with you in this part - introspective issues in a mosque and by the Islamic community isn't done enough - not in any religion. This is a major issue not just in Islam but in christianity too. Too often, people become defensive about people who may be doing things and teaching things which are wrong but people are too afraid to stand up agains them. This needs to change.

I do agree here. Islam in its current form needs to change to conform with Western Ideals. This is 100% true. And those that follow do need to achieve a level of moderate-ness. This will happen but...it will take time.


QUOTE (Gjeebes @ 13.Jul.2017, 04:33 PM) *
That is after-all what this thread was about.

While the view that Islam is not inherently "evil" is a very generous one, it seems to gloss over the fact that the female imam does now require 24 h police protection, due to numerous threats of "death" from abroad.

It is hardly unicorns with rainbow sprinkles.

The entire situation is pretty much self-explanatory, since the experiment that brought that on, was an initiation of "moderate Islam" in a Western country.

And excuses aside, it is what it is, even if there are rainbow renditions that attempt to "make happy" a very "sad" story.


I have to say, I do love your descriptions. So very vivid!

Yeah, there are some ridiculous people but there are people in India who think a women wearing a t-shirt is asking "for it". That is wrong and disgraceful. It's education and change. And some people are more afraid of it than others. Also stubborn.

Like I said, Islam is, I agree, not compatible right now with Western Ideals but that is because those that follow (majority worldwide) don't accept the way the western world has developed over the last 50-100 years.

Lets not gloss over that it was only 50-60 years ago in the U.K. and U.S. that coloured people couldn't vote and were segregated and that women weren't allowed to vote shortly before that. We in the western world have developed rapidly. Those that are still developing should be afforded the same time!

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 13.Jul.2017, 04:38 PM

This is a pretty decent thread...for a change, verbal violence has not broken out...yet laugh.gif

However it's explained, it does not change today's situation...

Today's victims do not care that they and their loved ones have paid the price for a group that is still developing and will be better behaved in years to come...

That being said, why is it that no one mentions the fact that Islam has been attacking the west since it's inception???

Posted by: ameliaplant 14.Jul.2017, 01:58 AM

Islam is true religion of peace.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 14.Jul.2017, 03:39 AM

Please explain that statement...

Posted by: LLHope 14.Jul.2017, 04:06 PM

QUOTE (BhuBhuKaZoo @ 13.Jul.2017, 09:03 AM) *
And in actual fact, although India gained it's independence, the Pakistan and India border that was drawn up was not without input from the British. You have to understand the history. Hindu's, Sikhs, Gujarati and several other religions (India is one of the most religiously diverse countries in the world) wanted their independence from each other. And Muslims were looked down upon and wanted the opportunity to govern themselves (most of them resided in what is known now as Pakistan.

I suggest you go back and read the actual historic record. Viceroy Mountbatten (and the British) position was for a United India, supported by Hindus (obviously as they would be the majority in a democratic India) and high profile support from Gandhi. It was the Muslims lead by Muhammad Ali Jinnah that pushed very hard for a divided country, so much so that by 1947 India was clearly descending into civil war mainly along religious lines (guess who encouraged it!). It was apparent then that there was little option but to divide the country into 2.

QUOTE (BhuBhuKaZoo @ 13.Jul.2017, 09:03 AM) *
This is a clear and correct interpretation of Islam. It can be convoluted by an evil and deranged mind just like anything (remember a few years ago video games were believed to be inspiring killings by young people?)!

Without bothering to go into how the majority of those paragraphs you quote from the qu'ran are actually abrogated by the later more violent and oppressive ones. You still cannot just hang on a few chosen passages. Islam was described by it's creator as the perfect religion, the book cannot be changed, is made understandable, which means all contents carries equal weight ... You still have to accept then all the abhorrent things islam requires it's followers to do, especially to non-believers, and leavers!

QUOTE (BhuBhuKaZoo @ 13.Jul.2017, 09:03 AM) *
The book is not the reason the hatred spreads. It is the people who believe in not adapting to the modern world, in a fair and equal way that are the issue. And in that, Islam is not the only issue. There are many who have beliefs that do not align with what we would consider morally right in the Western World.

Oh Dear! There is absolutely no choice in Islam. The qu'ran is clear and meant for all time, without change. There is absolutely no possibility to re-interpret/change it! Remember, the Christian reformations were NEVER about doctrine, but about the practices of the various Churches (e.g. selling confessions to get into heaven!). You cannot reform islam because to do so You need to change the Doctrine, which cannot be changed as their God says it is perfect. Change it and it is no longer Islam.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 14.Jul.2017, 04:35 PM

An Indian woman once said to me "every time the Muslims complained, India got smaller"...

Posted by: Bsmith 14.Jul.2017, 05:40 PM

QUOTE (ameliaplant @ 14.Jul.2017, 12:58 AM) *
Islam is true religion of peace.


If you keep telling the lie big enough and long enough, (gullible) people will start believing.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 14.Jul.2017, 09:56 PM

Yeah, that's right, however it's worse than:

"Trust me, I'm from the Government" rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Gjeebes 18.Jul.2017, 05:38 AM

"Islam is true religion of peace."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/arrest-warrant-imam-sermon-montreal-mosque-hate-jews-1.4209384

Oh, look at "racist" Canada. How dare they do something against the "visiting imam" and his "hate speech" that promoted killing of an entire "non-Muslim" group.

For Sweden, where one can legally display the ISIS flag, Canada's actions will surely be considered as sexist too!

But its OK, this imam should simply just arrive in Sweden where he will be pitied, respected, protected, lavished with gifts and be free to "hate speak" all he likes.

Posted by: Svedallas 18.Jul.2017, 10:41 AM

QUOTE (Bsmith @ 13.Jul.2017, 04:16 PM) *
All religions attempt to bring more converts into the fold. Most do it by peaceful persuasion, but Islam has a history of conversion by the sword. Also, as Gjeebes mentions, clerics say one thing in public and another in private. They even have a name for it: taqiyya.

Again, I have met several nice Muslims and I try to not judge them based upon their beliefs as I feel that is a very personal decision. But I truly feel that Islam (in its current form) is not a good fit for the West. And I think current events support that.


Islam is NOT compatible with the western culture, and never will be.

This is in terms of democracy, equality with women, respect for women, marriage, food culture, values, and on a culture perspective...and many more.

When it comes to Sweden - Sweden and Islam, could not be more polar opposite!
- Majority of Swedes are atheists
- Swedes love their pork
- Swedes love their drink
- Swedes are open with their bodies - will you ever see a Muslim in a bastu?
- Muslim women have to be fully clothed and covered, and even restricted with Burkini's (Some reports state this could be the reason for the high rapes in Europe - as middle eastern countries are just not used to the openess in the European culture)
- Sweden has an equal society where men/women are both the bread winners. How many Muslim women are able to get a job with a burka/hijab?!
- Teen marriage is common in Islamic culture, with marriage as young as 13 - Swedes are happy with Sambo/Mambo
- Divorce is at 55% in Sweden - muslim culture frowns at Divorce, but accepts multiple wives...


This list can go on and on...Swedish culture Vs Muslim culture.
Complete opposite, on ALL levels.

Posted by: delta76 18.Jul.2017, 11:05 AM

Agree. The way I see it, Islam has very little (if any) respects toward women. In their rules, they are only second class citizen, or even worse, "properties".

Posted by: Bsmith 18.Jul.2017, 11:10 AM

And they don't like dogs!

Posted by: Svedallas 18.Jul.2017, 12:23 PM

QUOTE (Bsmith @ 18.Jul.2017, 12:10 PM) *
And they don't like dogs!


That too!! blink.gif

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 18.Jul.2017, 05:25 PM

Do they have Islamic stand up comics???

Posted by: LLHope 19.Jul.2017, 07:01 PM

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock @ 18.Jul.2017, 05:25 PM) *
Do they have Islamic stand up comics???

Yep, and they are so funny we infidels laugh our heads off!

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 19.Jul.2017, 07:35 PM

laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: Bsmith 7.Feb.2018, 12:02 PM

Yes they do. A piece here and a piece there and a piece way over here...

Posted by: Uncle Fred 7.Feb.2018, 04:14 PM

QUOTE (Bsmith @ 7.Feb.2018, 12:02 PM) *
Yes they do. A piece here and a piece there and a piece way over here...

Have a look at an earlier post you made, its not about what you said but who you responded too.



You responded to post 20 on this thread by ameliaplant, now look at ameliaplant's profile and look at the home page.

Posted by: Bsmith 7.Feb.2018, 05:07 PM

Now her/he/it's post is erased. Strange doings.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 7.Feb.2018, 05:39 PM

I see that post and asked for an explanation...it's still there!!!

What are you guys up to???

Posted by: Uncle Fred 7.Feb.2018, 06:12 PM

QUOTE (Bsmith @ 7.Feb.2018, 05:07 PM) *
Now her/he/it's post is erased. Strange doings.

You don't have a very good rubber (eraser). It's still there at the time of this post.
You can't even use the spam button on it either.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 7.Feb.2018, 07:03 PM

???

Am I missing something???

Spam button...Why???

Posted by: Uncle Fred 7.Feb.2018, 08:47 PM

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock @ 7.Feb.2018, 07:03 PM) *
???

Am I missing something???

Spam button...Why???

Have you looked at the users profile and its home page. Hardly appropriate don't you think!

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 8.Feb.2018, 02:26 AM

Cannot open page due to security warnings...

I'm betting it's X-rated and/or worse...

What motivated you to investigate???

Posted by: Bsmith 8.Feb.2018, 02:40 AM

According to her profile she: loves adult cams and couple cams for free.

Posted by: Uncle Fred 9.Feb.2018, 08:57 AM

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock @ 8.Feb.2018, 02:26 AM) *
Cannot open page due to security warnings...

I'm betting it's X-rated and/or worse...

What motivated you to investigate???

Click on "ameliaplant" top left of comment, click "view user profile", click on "home page".

Why did I investigate, well I don't always trust people. In this case it was the comment made, that made me inquisitive.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 9.Feb.2018, 04:53 PM

"This site can’t provide a secure connection
camsdepot.com uses an unsupported protocol.
ERR_SSL_VERSION_OR_CIPHER_MISMATCH"

Again, this is what I got trying to reach that page...

Did you get there???

Posted by: Uncle Fred 9.Feb.2018, 05:34 PM

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock @ 9.Feb.2018, 04:53 PM) *
"This site can’t provide a secure connection
camsdepot.com uses an unsupported protocol.
ERR_SSL_VERSION_OR_CIPHER_MISMATCH"

Again, this is what I got trying to reach that page...

Did you get there???


Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 9.Feb.2018, 05:49 PM

Odd then that he/she/it did not flog the site...

Posted by: Uncle Fred 10.Feb.2018, 08:25 AM

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock @ 9.Feb.2018, 05:49 PM) *
Odd then that he/she/it did not flog the site...

From where I come from the word flog means to "sell" or "beat", so I don't understand your comment.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 10.Feb.2018, 02:32 PM

Exactly what I meant..."Sell" us on the idea of visiting the site...

"Really creepy" is in the eye of the beholder...

Posted by: Bsmith 10.Feb.2018, 06:52 PM

I didn't see a gamla cam on the list.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 10.Feb.2018, 07:33 PM

What!!!

And reveal my techniques???

I would not have a minutes peace, if my prowess was revealed laugh.gif

Posted by: Uncle Fred 10.Feb.2018, 07:43 PM

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock @ 10.Feb.2018, 07:33 PM) *
What!!!

And reveal my techniques???

I would not have a minutes peace, if my prowess was revealed laugh.gif

This really has deviated from "Islam the religion of peace and tolerance".
However there is possibly more sense in it than the original tittle

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 10.Feb.2018, 08:16 PM

The lure of TheLocal...You never know what a "thread" will morph into...

Posted by: Bsmith 11.Feb.2018, 09:46 PM

QUOTE (Uncle Fred @ 10.Feb.2018, 07:43 PM) *
This really has deviated from "Islam the religion of peace and tolerance".
However there is possibly more sense in it than the original tittle



We can bring the thread back around:

If Islam is the religion of peace and tolerance, why does violence seem to be so closely related to it?

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 11.Feb.2018, 10:37 PM

"Islam is the religion of peace"

And there is just as much truth in:"Trust me, I'm from the Government" rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Bsmith 11.Feb.2018, 11:56 PM

QUOTE (Ummmmmm @ 11.Feb.2018, 09:11 PM) *
Because Islam is the religion of peace and tolerance to those who buy into that idea... just like most other organized religions that advertise that.
And like most other organized religions, they all have their histories of violence, some, if not most, that include our contemporary time. That’s what happens when any organized force tries to dictate how the populous should live based on a simple system of reward and punishment, and moral heirarchy... there will be judgement and violence.

Hello, welcome to the world.



Well, don't you have it all figured out...when's the book come out?

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 12.Feb.2018, 03:38 PM

I think this idiot has been here before, cooking up insults in his lab...

So I'm sending him to Coventry...

Ta Ta!!!

Remember, when you feed the Troll, it regurgitates...all over you!!!

Posted by: Bsmith 12.Feb.2018, 04:05 PM

QUOTE (Ummmmmm @ 12.Feb.2018, 01:51 PM) *
Yea, it’s pretty simple when you have common sense.
What I can’t figure out is what you’re doing on a forum
When you’ve only lived in Sweden 14 months, gave up, then clings to Sweden via this forum?

And Gamla, I can’t figure out what youb e been doing for nearly 12 years on a forum when you’ve never lived in Sweden???? And why do you spread your ignorant old white man pro trump creepiness on this. I bet both of you have sad lives with a box of tissues next to the computer


I think you must be a reingurgitation of a former poster here who wanted to censor certain people that he/she/it disagreed with. Sorry, I'm not going away anytime soon.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 12.Feb.2018, 04:14 PM

No...Look at the way it expresses itself...

Hint: Look to the beginning!!!

Posted by: Bsmith 12.Feb.2018, 07:33 PM

And what kind of creep are you to criticize my decisions based upon information that you do not have? You just like going around and stirring up shit. Well, enjoy the smell, I guess.

Posted by: Bsmith 12.Feb.2018, 08:34 PM

Thanks for the pic. It's always nice to see who I am actually talking to.

And, no, I don't owe the likes of you any explanation. You are just some insignificant pooberry who gets his jollies off putting others down in a vain attempt to lift up your own fragile ego. So go ahead and enjoy your little, pathetic game if that is how you roll. I've met your kind before and I'll just let you rant from your dunghill while I go on about my business.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 12.Feb.2018, 09:22 PM

Feeding Trolls, are we???

Posted by: Saywhatwhat 7.Jun.2018, 06:54 AM

This is an old thread but I thought id sprinkle my two cents.
Very quickly...

Imo, it is Extremism that is the problem. It isnt solely linked to one religion or ideology. Any form of extremism is like cancer to society. liberal extremism, conservative extremism, Islamic extremism, Christian extremism.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 7.Jun.2018, 11:48 AM

So then we need Christian extremism to combat Muslim extremism...

Posted by: Saywhatwhat 7.Jun.2018, 08:23 PM

[quote name='Gamla Hälsingebock' post='931' date='7.Jun.2018, 12:4pSo then we need Christian extremism to combat Muslim extremism[/quote]
No, but time spent on internal review and those, within, of power or those in opposition need to condemn extremism.

Unfortunately, which exposes it all as bullshit, there are always people in power who benefit from various forms of extremism... so it continues and will keep continuing on.


However, something that would be extreme... Take all extremists, put them on an island, I'm thinking escape from ny style, and let them fight it out. Maybe even record and broadcast it to the rest of the world... EXTREME TV here i come.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 7.Jun.2018, 09:37 PM

Hate speech against extremists will not be tolerated by the "politically correct" faction...Shame on you for thinking of such a horrible way to treat those that are overly devout!!! laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Posted by: Saywhatwhat 8.Jun.2018, 08:02 PM

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock @ 7.Jun.2018, 10:37 PM) *
Hate speech against extremists will not be tolerated by the "politically correct" faction...Shame on you for thinking of such a horrible way to treat those that are overly devout!!! laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif



Mountain Dew will be a major sponsor!

Posted by: Bsmith 8.Jun.2018, 11:38 PM

That's what I plan on doing to my wife tonight...

Posted by: Bsmith 22.Apr.2019, 12:44 PM

I see that the "religion of peace" has struck again in Sri Lanka.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 22.Apr.2019, 02:38 PM

Violence without a goal...

What do they gain by cowardly attacks on the innocent/unarmed public???

It's just killing for the sake of killing...

Posted by: Bsmith 22.Apr.2019, 03:12 PM

Oh, there's a goal.

Posted by: ChamzV 25.Apr.2019, 06:35 PM

Nearly (or morethan ) 400 inocent life's taken because of nothing...40 foriegn nationals ( some are still missing) more than 40 childrens taken because of nothing...really sad what happen recently..

Posted by: iddaa 26.Apr.2019, 10:50 PM

QUOTE (intrepidfox @ 11.Jul.2017, 08:48 PM) *
Don´t forget Mohammed was a pedophile having his disgusting way with Aisha when she was 9. These morons follow his teachings. No wonder there are so many rapes

true +1

Posted by: Gjeebes 29.Apr.2019, 05:12 PM

Funny how islam isn't unified, still, even after ISIS. Like they refuse to draw a line between decent, and radical.

But in any case, secular Western societies are no place for foreign, non-secular religious political ideologies.

Except maybe in the Greasy Meatball. They (i.e. the Meatballs) seem bent on filling their void with something that at least carries some purpose, even if that is to take over the host (i.e the Meatballs).

They are so caught up with radical feminism (i.e. the Meatballs), and all things extreme-PC, they likely won't even notice being taken over by the ancient man-cult of evil and Sharia doom.

Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)