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The Local _ International affairs _ The Referendum - Vote to Leave the EU!

Posted by: Mpf 19.Apr.2016, 10:29 AM

The implications surrounding an exit from the EU will have a large impact on many who no longer live in the UK as well as some of those who do but then won't be able to.

Premiership footballers for instance, many will not be able to play! http://www.theweek.co.uk/premier-league/70125/eu-referendum-would-brexit-destroy-the-premier-league

An then you have all the ex pats in Spain or where ever in the EU, who would become illegal immigrants literally over night. If not a citizen of the country they are in any residents would become illegal immigrants, rights to work would need permits, and what about the UK state pension, that too "could" be frozen!

I am sure there are some other problems associated with leaving the EU too, but all this bun fighting is not helpful. Yesterday's news that we would all be £4300 worse off! Is quite frankly a load of bull, we also don't need to follow one of the 3 options, as we could negotiate our own deal (making 4).

I think this vote will be quite exciting, and if we do vote to leave I would be curious as to all the implications, and that is what we should be focusing on.

Food for thought!

Posted by: skogsbo 19.Apr.2016, 10:40 AM

people moved, worked, holidayed, traded with one another before the EU, I see no reason to panic over brexit.

Because of treaties signed already, even if 99% vote to leave, nothing can change for 2 years with the UK and EU. So no one will be illegal immigrants, no one will have their assets or pensions frozen, there will be no instant trade tariffs etc... all that is just scare mongering.

Posted by: Mib 19.Apr.2016, 10:56 AM

There are risk of course, bioth to stay in and to leave. There is no safe option as staying will result in tighter integration and with th EU showing no signs of democracy, increased corruption and bad planning for refugees crisis etc, then there are great risks staying. For me, this referendum is about democracy and only democracy.

Spain are not going to suddenly throw out all British expats. The dameg to their economy would be massive if they were so stupid. the sme in the UK, the migrants will not be deported etc as most of them are integral to the British infrastructure like the NHS and comeercial success. The Germans will trade with the UK as it is one of the biggest buyers of German cars and other products. Quite simply, Stockholm's biggest export market is the UK. There are two years to sort out the details beofre we start talking about deporting expats. In fact, they would proabably be protected by the EU human rights law while in Europe for the right to family life. But, in any case, i am applying for dual nationality just to be sure.

The biggest worry I have is the UK leaving and being a great success. That will be a green light for countries who's own people want to leave. But for th elikes of Italy etc, they have the Euro and so there is a igger cost for them to leave, but again as I say, this is about democracy and the EU is undemocratic. Who knows who their MEP is? Who believes they can vote out a particular policy by voting for another party? They can't.

The EU has many advantages and should have stayed at the intial plan to be a collective trading zone. Not a political and in the future a financial union in terms of a EU tax etc.

All in all, the EU and the UK Governments are acting like kids in a playground. They both refuse to back down and now they threaten the future of the EU as well as affecting the UK. The Scots may even leave if the UK leaves the EU. But, that would be utter madness to leave a common union to join a European Union with the size of their economy.

The UK is the 5th largest GDP in the world. It has the power to be on its own in terms of democracy and trade. Yes, there will be disruption as this has never been done before. There will be scare stories from both sides. people and compaines will be worried. the EU members may even retaliate via trade embargoes etc, but that will hurt them as well and people have long memories.

Democracy, democracy. That's what it's all about for me. So for me, Brexit!

Posted by: Savage 19.Apr.2016, 11:49 AM

QUOTE (skogsbo @ 19.Apr.2016, 11:40 AM) *
people moved, worked, holidayed, traded with one another before the EU, I see no reason to panic over brexit.



This is true, BUT ...
A lot has changed in 20 years, and the most importantly the size, growth and homogenization of the EU has created a monopoly of 28 members now which is very different to what it was 20 years ago. The other important fact is that 20 years ago, the UK leaving the EU wouldn't have the same impact as it would today.

And that is the real danger.

The knock on effect is causing a panic in Europe and a very aggressive stance against the UK.

Germany
"Wolfgang Schäuble, Germany’s finance minister, has warned British chancellor George Osborne that Berlin would be a tough negotiator if the UK votes to leave the EU.

Speaking on the sidelines of the International Monetary Fund spring meetings on Saturday, Mr Schäuble, one of the strongest forces in European politics, also jested that British football teams in a post-Brexit world should be excluded from the European champions league — something not actually linked to EU membership."

France
http://www.france24.com/en/20160418-france-macron-warns-against-brexit-osborne-report-premanently-poorer

"French Economy Minister Emmanuel Macron weighed in on the Brexit debate late Sunday, warning that Britain would be “completely killed” in global trade negotiations if Britons vote to leave the EU in a June 23 referendum."

Italy
The Italian government has argued that the renegotiated UK membership terms prime minister David Cameron agreed with his counterparts in February should be used as an opportunity for the eurozone to integrate further.

“We need to rethink or strengthen the governance model of the EU and the euro area. Europe needs to have ambition, we cannot continue with piecemeal approaches,” said Mr Padoan



Then you have the issue with Gibraltar and so on.
The real question needs to be, is the UK and its leaders strong enough to be able to negotiate a Brexit if a referendum points that way. As that will be the deciding factor. And given that David, George, Jeremy, Teressa, Tim, Natalie etc.

No UK party apart from UKIP is campaigning to leave.

Tories - Bremain
Labor - Bremain
Lib Dems - Bremain
Green - Bremain

UKIP - Brexit




If the Brexit wants to get its message across, it will need a leader.
A leader better that all those mentioned above.

Posted by: Savage 19.Apr.2016, 02:53 PM

I want to add, that while I have been playing devils advocate.

My vote is for a BREXIT.
As the system is broken both in the UK and the EU.
And this will be the final chance to right the wrongs before it is too late.

Posted by: Hallander 19.Apr.2016, 03:33 PM

The first bit of this article from the Telegraph has the nub of it. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/17/the-eu-oligarchs-will-despise-us-even-more-if-we-leave-thats-rea/ quote

QUOTE
the EU is an oligarchy – a form of permanent, supranational government by a relatively small mutual support group of highly educated people which has worked out how to stay in power without the boring task of submitting itself to general elections.
and
QUOTE
If there is one thing the EU is good at, it is providing career opportunities, summit meetings, conference circuits and pensions for administrative and political elites.

And we all know that the aim of the elite is to get towards a federal Europe by fair means or foul. A vote for Brexit does not mean anything will happen quickly. Expats, fear not. What happens will happen painfully slowlyand by careful negotiation.

Posted by: Model T Ford 19.Apr.2016, 05:54 PM

Just the UK repeating its betrayals, like what happened to the Arab League after London promised to unify them.

The Brits always act like Perfidious Albion.

Posted by: Hallander 19.Apr.2016, 06:21 PM

Just wind your neck in, its our business, not yours. Its enough to have Obama coming over to tell us what to do.

Posted by: Savage 19.Apr.2016, 07:02 PM

From a geo political standpoint a Brexit could have far reaching consequences, to the point in which a a Brexit vote could evolve into a very strange chapter of events.

Firstly, we know that Europe has many weak spots. And that EU policy making has allowed countries like Italy to put themselves in a very precarious situation, Financially.

We know Spain, Greece and so on are a potential issue.

But a Brexit is potentially a very risky move in regards to the EU block members.
Too much debt in some countries, too many loans by others to shore up the Eurozone.
And Russia breathing heavily in anticipation, looking to re-establish partnerships in the event of instability.

But since this is a UK and Swedish based forum, lets look at the dangers that face Sweden.
Sweden has been somewhat quiet in regards to not wanting to influence or disrespect the referendum campaign. Yes there has been a little bit of propaganda in regards to self interest, but generally its has been influential statements.

There is no doubt that nearly all states in the EU have commissioned risk analysis for their own country in the event of a Brexit, and it would naive to think that Sweden hasn't done the same. Given Sweden's position and interests, it could be that a Brexit vote could lead to Sweden choosing to do the same in a very short time manner. As if the EU was to erode, Sweden wouldn't want to be taken down with the Eurozone which is most at risk. And if it could get in early with an agreement with the UK, it may be able to negotiate a military pact regarding protection from any potential threat. Which would be especially important if the EU started to break up. The Netherlands is another country which has shown great disdain for EU direction and has recently voted against stronger ties with the Ukraine. And subsequently, there has been suggestions of referendums should be banned as they pose a risk to the EU as a whole.

Then we have the US, the US holds the upper hand regarding influence in the EU.
And any fractures could lead to Russia regaining a foothold in Europe, which would be against US and Nato interests. So it is no surprise that the US is promoting the UK to Remain.

If a Brexit was to happen, worst case scenario I could imagine fractures appearing rather quickly in the EU. And would require very fast and brutal downsizing of the pact to try and stop contagion. With western Europe creating new pacts and unfortunately leaving many eastern territories to fend for themselves.

Posted by: Model T Ford 19.Apr.2016, 07:35 PM

QUOTE (Hallander @ 19.Apr.2016, 05:21 PM) *
Just wind your neck in, its our business, not yours. Its enough to have Obama coming over to tell us what to do.


If it's just an internal British matter, why post it on a Swedish site as an international matter?

Can't you find a right-wing site back home for your nonsence, since if Britain's finally leaves the EU, its layabouts will be more dependent than ever on the USA.

Posted by: Hisingen 19.Apr.2016, 08:23 PM

MTF now you are going off your trolley matey.
Keep your fanatsies on your homeland and in outer space and leave discussions on our country's future to those that matter i.e. BRITS AND KEEP YOUR YANKEE NOSE OUT.

Posted by: Hisingen 19.Apr.2016, 08:44 PM

To Savage, there has been very little coming out of Rosenbad, other than a whisper that there is apprehension regarding a possible Brexit. The welder is - as is his wont - keeping very low key, and is seldom to be seen or heard doing or saying anything of note. I guess he is still wearing his 'L-plates'.
The trouble with his housing minister hardly raised a whimper and, according to the spring budget, there seems masses of money in the governmental coffers to throw around, despite the current finance minster saying that she took over a country that was on its beam ends, and those were coffers empty.
Osborne is spouting a whole load proclaiming the advent of doom and disaster as a result of Brexit. Being the next PM candidate that is rather to be expected, and the future of Cameronio does not look too bright. Unfortunately all the big so-called guns are lining up 'to stay in' whilst the voices for the man in the street have yet to get their act together to proclaim the virtues of Brexit, and to counteract the propaganda leaflet that has already been sent to every household in the country.
Juncker today is expressing fears to the effect that his EU is 'not going to plan' due to unrest and too much red tape. He seemingly forgot to mention anything about budgets and finances for some unknown reason, nor anything about the cost of running the circus.

Posted by: skogsbo 19.Apr.2016, 08:50 PM

QUOTE (Savage @ 19.Apr.2016, 11:49 AM) *
This is true, BUT ...
A lot has changed in 20 years, and the most importantly the size, growth and homogenization of the EU has created a monopoly of 28 members now which is very different to what it was 20 years ago. The other important fact is that 20 years ago, the UK leaving the EU wouldn't have the same impact as it would today.

And that is the real danger.


perhaps the EU should have offered the UK some better terms with the renegotiation then. They have only themselves to blame.

What has changed in 20 years is the dream of the Euro has been proven to not work, ever closer expansion and union has been proven not to work too. CAP the
same. Migration the same.

Posted by: skogsbo 19.Apr.2016, 08:54 PM

QUOTE (Savage @ 19.Apr.2016, 07:02 PM) *
But since this is a UK and Swedish based forum, lets look at the dangers that face Sweden.

pretty limited, all the non Euro nations are in much better shape. And Sweden with always form a closer bond with the other Nordic/Scandic nations in the event of a collapse.

Life might change a little but it will go on. Compare to what could happen or will likely happen in the PIIGS nations eventually anyway, Sweden has little to fear.

Posted by: LLHope 20.Apr.2016, 07:53 PM

QUOTE (Savage @ 19.Apr.2016, 10:49 AM) *
Germany "Wolfgang Schäuble, Germany’s finance minister, has warned British chancellor George Osborne that Berlin would be a tough negotiator if the UK votes to leave the EU
biggrin.gif ...they already now block measures that would open the market to British partners (i.e. Commonwealth Members), so nothing new there. In fact, the British could have far better deals within/Between the Commonwealth Member countries than the EU. Right now Germany and France block everything in order to protect their own interests. As for France, well, their economy has collapsed in all but words, so whatever they say is irrelevant. The EU is about money/business, the movement of people is just a secondary half measure. If you exclude the fact that Germany is running scared and moving to get Turkey in as fast as possible ... Then in the next couple of decades it is forecast that the UK will not only become the largest economy in the EU but also the largest by population... if outside the EU, then why would the EU Member States NOT want to deal with the UK? It would be larger than any of the Member States (barring entry of Turkey). Money money money wink.gif ... UK should vote OUT.

Posted by: Savage 21.Apr.2016, 09:09 AM

Interestingly enough, with a potential delay to the referendum currently being proposed in the UK high court, to allow British citizens who have worked in the EU for more than 15 years, the right to vote. Could be blessing for the leave campaign, given that Greece and its government is again falling apart and could highlight the risks that staying in the EU could pose to the UK.

As it stands right now, it will take considerable investment to bail out Greece.
And while Dave may have secured a few concessions in regards to Eurozone bailouts, that is only based on a referendum to stay. Anything prior to that point could be considered on a different footing. And a delay in voting could jeopardize that. Not to mention the French and German general elections.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 22.Apr.2016, 09:20 PM

Another voice!!!

Can the Brits quit the "gang"???

Will they become secessionist...A la, the Confederacy???

How will Kenyan ex pats vote???

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/britains-eu-leave-campaign-annoyed-obama-intervention-38591978

Posted by: Kari 23.Jun.2016, 02:53 AM

I wonder how a Brexit will affect ordinary EU citizens living in UK.

There is always bureaucracy, not only in Brussels but in London as well (and in Stockholm).

How is it for a non EU-member wanting to work in Sweden? A long queue. Remember the non EU-family who lived and worked for many years in Sweden (or at least the man worked) and their children went to school here. Then Skatteverket disocovered that the man's employer paid 180 kr too little/month. Now the whole family is deported. None of them have done anything wrong, it was the employer who made a mistake. But rules are rules.

I know of another non EU-citizen living in London. His girl friend went to his homeland for a study project. He could not visit her b/c he had applied for residence permit (or a prolonged one). So they drifted apart.

Then there is this article about a Swedish baker in London. He tried to import something from Norway. Norway is a non-EU country but with a treaty with EU. But there were so many forms to fill in and still the goods got stuck in the customs. It was simply not worth the trouble. (http://www.dn.se/arkiv/varlden/svenska-bageriet-befarar-krangligare-import/)

It is all very well if there are no big changes the next two years. But after that? Nobody seems to know.

Posted by: Hisingen 23.Jun.2016, 08:59 AM

QUOTE (Kari @ 23.Jun.2016, 01:53 AM) *
I wonder how a Brexit will affect ordinary EU citizens living in UK. - - - -
It is all very well if there are no big changes the next two years. But after that? Nobody seems to know.

Wonders will never cease . something that little kari does NOT know. cool.gif

Posted by: LLHope 23.Jun.2016, 09:38 AM

QUOTE (Kari @ 23.Jun.2016, 01:53 AM) *
Then there is this article about a Swedish baker in London. He tried to import something from Norway. Norway is a non-EU country but with a treaty with EU. But there were so many forms to fill in and still the goods got stuck in the customs. It was simply not worth the trouble.
And this is why UK (and others) should vote LEAVE. The EU Single market is protectionist, it is not about free trade. Prices to consumers are higher than they should be. Food is the classic example, the EU artificially inflates the price of food in order to support inefficient farming mainly in France and Italy (food is around 20% higher price than it should be). Other examples of the protectionism is clothes, shoes which also are around 14-20% more expensive than they should be. EU Consumers are being drained of disposable income to fund stupidity and ridiculous bureaucracy.

...when you look closer and behind the recent regulations that are promoted under the guise of environmental moves (i.e. Vacuum cleaner power consumption, coming soon Toasters and Kettles, and after that halogen lamps will be outlawed) you will find that it isn't the "green" groups pushing for the regulation changes, but actually significant number of German manufacturers. The requirements are always just at the level of current german manufacturer product specifications in terms of power consumption etc wink.gif and the aim is to give advantage to them whilst making it harder for other EU manufacturers and also importers from outside of EU to catch-up ...when they do, regulation changes to the next "green" measure.

...and I am completely surprised how there is absolute silence from the current Swedish government with regards the TTIP discussions that are on-going with the USA ...Sweden tries to be very protective of it's state owned businesses/services, they appear to not realise nor care that they will be attacked and dismantled if the agreement goes through!

Posted by: Kari 23.Jun.2016, 12:19 PM

QUOTE (LLHope @ 23.Jun.2016, 10:38 AM) *
And this is why UK (and others) should vote LEAVE. The EU Single market is protectionist, it is not about free trade. Prices to consumers are higher than they should be. Food is the classic example, the EU artificially inflates the price of food in order to support inefficient farming mainly in France and Italy (food is around 20% higher price than it should be). Other examples of the protectionism is clothes, shoes which also are around 14-20% more expensive than they should be. EU Consumers are being drained of disposable income to fund stupidity and ridiculous bureaucracy.

...when you look closer and behind the recent regulations that are promoted under the guise of environmental moves (i.e. Vacuum cleaner power consumption, coming soon Toasters and Kettles, and after that halogen lamps will be outlawed) you will find that it isn't the "green" groups pushing for the regulation changes, but actually significant number of German manufacturers. The requirements are always just at the level of current german manufacturer product specifications in terms of power consumption etc wink.gif and the aim is to give advantage to them whilst making it harder for other EU manufacturers and also importers from outside of EU to catch-up ...when they do, regulation changes to the next "green" measure.

...and I am completely surprised how there is absolute silence from the current Swedish government with regards the TTIP discussions that are on-going with the USA ...Sweden tries to be very protective of it's state owned businesses/services, they appear to not realise nor care that they will be attacked and dismantled if the agreement goes through!


There is free trade between the EU-countries. As far as I know both Sweden and UK are for free trade generally. But if UK leaves...

As for food, it became cheaper in Sweden after we joined EU. Don't know about UK.

TTIP is complicated though I'm wary of Americian lawyers preventing laws for environment and health.

But what will happen to EU-citizens in UK and UK-citizens in EU-countries? Maybe nothing to those already living in UK. But in the future? The Leave-promoters have not given any real information. Maybe they did not find it important. So we just have to wait - for two more years. Will young people in EU wanting to study in UK have to pay high fees (and vice versa)?

Complicated visa regulations, high visa fees and constantly changing rules?

Also, the Leave-campaign is rather xenophobic. I get the impression that many Brits feel "out with the EU-immigrants and never let them in again". Though it seems they are mixing them up with refugees: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-brexit-poster-vans-eu-referendum-london-remain-breaking-point-a7085396.html

Posted by: Model T Ford 23.Jun.2016, 03:08 PM

The referendum will result in Britain staying in the EU, thanks to the assassination of Remain supporter Jo Cox.

Posted by: Kari 23.Jun.2016, 03:50 PM

I don't think that would have swayed a Brexit thinker.

But many were undecided. You know what you have but not what you will get. I'm holding my breath for the result.

Posted by: Model T Ford 24.Jun.2016, 02:38 PM

I quite underestimated the stupidity of the UK electorate in the EU referendum.

They have voted for what OurAdolf wants without realizing it.

If the USA does the same, we will be back in the Hobbesian state of nature.

Posted by: Kari 25.Jun.2016, 08:56 AM

What will happen to the Erasmus programme? Swedish students who are planning to some day study in UK wonder. Will there be high costs and therefore only possible for the rich? And British students planning to study in EU wonder too.

QUOTE
The opportunities are endless.

But are they now?
QUOTE
It is not clear at this early stage what the impact of the recent UK vote to leave the EU will have on the Erasmus Programme.

http://www.erasmusprogramme.com/

Posted by: Hisingen 25.Jun.2016, 10:45 AM

QUOTE (Model T Ford @ 24.Jun.2016, 02:38 PM) *
I quite underestimated the stupidity of the UK electorate in the EU referendum.- - -

I think that, in fact, you under-estimated you own stupidity, and not that of 17.4 million Brits who voted Out and the 16.1 million Brits who voted In. That is a total of some 33 million whose vote was not about Trump.
Were you under the impression that they were thinking about Trump when they voted? If you were, then you grossly under-estimated their purpose.
Whether it was for In or Out, they had little thought for the problems that the US is experiencing or might experience at its own election time.

Posted by: LLHope 25.Jun.2016, 02:40 PM

QUOTE (Kari @ 25.Jun.2016, 07:56 AM) *
What will happen to the Erasmus programme? Swedish students who are planning to some day study in UK wonder. Will there be high costs and therefore only possible for the rich? And British students planning to study in EU wonder too. But are they now? http://www.erasmusprogramme.com/
You don't seem to realise that Erasmus+ is also available/open to non-EU citizens. Would be rather odd (and extremely petty) if the they made specific exclusions for the UK!!! biggrin.gif

As for higher education in general (you asked elsewhere in a thread) England introduced fees to citizens and non-citizens back in 1998, it is expensive even for the English to go to university. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland also have some form of fee. Scotland's is a bit silly where you can have free education depending if you meet their definition of youth (i.e. under 25, no children, not married or in civil partnership etc...) otherwise there are general fees.

Posted by: Kari 25.Jun.2016, 03:42 PM

Well, nobody seems to know yet, not Erasmus.

In general, education is free in Sweden. There is a fee for non-European students in Sweden. Will British now have to pay this fee? And in other EU-countries as well?

People in Gibraltar voted Remain and are now worried about their future.

QUOTE
Shortly after the referendum result was confirmed, José Manuel García-Margallo, the Spanish foreign minister, told a national radio station: "It's a complete change of outlook that opens up new possibilities on Gibraltar not seen for a very long time. I hope the formula of co-sovereignity - to be clear, the Spanish flag on the Rock - is much closer than before," he said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/24/spain-proposes-shared-sovereignty-over-gibraltar-after-brexit-vo/

The Spanish want Gibraltar back but the people of Gibraltar want to stay under British rule. I don't why this rock is so important. Military reasons? Tourist income?

Posted by: LLHope 25.Jun.2016, 04:23 PM

QUOTE (Kari @ 25.Jun.2016, 02:42 PM) *
Well, nobody seems to know yet, not Erasmus.
Erasmus+ is for EU and non-EU, even they know that! What they don't know is what the future holds for Erasmus+, simple as that.

QUOTE (Kari @ 25.Jun.2016, 02:42 PM) *
In general, education is free in Sweden. There is a fee for non-European students in Sweden. Will British now have to pay this fee? And in other EU-countries as well?
It is Sweden who decides who pays for and who doesn't pay for education fees in Sweden. Non-EU fees were introduced because the universities and non-EU immigrants were abusing the system when it was free. Universities abused it by signing-up non-EU students who came to Sweden on student permits but never attended the courses (they disappeared either into Sweden or elsewhere within Schengen), at the same time the university got funding for the student without having to invest in additional tutors and/or infrastructure.

It might have escaped your attention that UK is STILL a member of the EU, hasn't yet even given in any notice to quit the EU, and when it does it will continue to be a member until negotiations have ended and the framework agreed. No-one knows when this will happen nor how long it will take, during the time from now until then UK is still part of the EU.

QUOTE (Kari @ 25.Jun.2016, 02:42 PM) *
The Spanish want Gibraltar back but the people of Gibraltar want to stay under British rule. I don't why this rock is so important. Military reasons? Tourist income?
Spain lost Gibraltar several centuries ago, they also lost Mallorca but the Britts gave it back to them some time ago (now they just go there and in drunken stupor trash the place! It is a strategic location, the Straights of Gibraltar is the most transited place in the World not just with regards shipping but also animal migration. Spain should be careful, if they continue to claim Gibraltar and the UK finally agree to hand it over, then the Catalans have a good precedent for claiming back their independence from Spain, which they lost due to the same treaty that gave Britain Gibraltar wink.gif

This is also why it is unlikely that Scotland could become an independent EU Member State, it requires majority vote from existing members. If Scotland tries to break from the UK and go for EU Membership, then Spain is likely to veto it. They cannot give Catalans a precedent showing it is possible to become independent from a union and become a full EU Member.

Posted by: Savage 25.Jun.2016, 08:31 PM

In regards to Gibraltar, then I would expect Spain to return Ceuta, Melilla and allow Catalans to start independence.

Posted by: Kari 26.Jun.2016, 02:00 PM

QUOTE (LLHope @ 25.Jun.2016, 05:23 PM) *
Spain lost Gibraltar several centuries ago, they also lost Mallorca but the Britts gave it back to them some time ago (now they just go there and in drunken stupor trash the place! It is a strategic location, the Straights of Gibraltar is the most transited place in the World not just with regards shipping but also animal migration. Spain should be careful, if they continue to claim Gibraltar and the UK finally agree to hand it over, then the Catalans have a good precedent for claiming back their independence from Spain, which they lost due to the same treaty that gave Britain Gibraltar wink.gif

This is also why it is unlikely that Scotland could become an independent EU Member State, it requires majority vote from existing members. If Scotland tries to break from the UK and go for EU Membership, then Spain is likely to veto it. They cannot give Catalans a precedent showing it is possible to become independent from a union and become a full EU Member.


But there is a big difference. UK voted to leave EU but Scotland voted to stay. Scotland is forced to leave EU and the EU fundings. Spain has not voted to leave EU.

What about Northern Ireland? Would NI (or the Catholics) vote to be a part of Eire now? Or will there be a border with customs and border control between Eire and Northern Ireland?

Posted by: LLHope 26.Jun.2016, 02:18 PM

QUOTE (Kari @ 26.Jun.2016, 01:00 PM) *
UK voted to leave EU but Scotland voted to stay.
There has not been ANY referendum in Scotland with regards should Scotland Leave or Remain in the EU.

The referendum was should the UK Leave or Remain, the legislation passed through Parliament was clear, as well as in the speeches by Cameron beforehand...It would be a UK referendum and the result is UK. The leader of the SNP asked way before the referendum for a Veto for Scotland if it didn't like the vote biggrin.gif ...but that was refused by the UK Prime Minister.

Posted by: Mib 26.Jun.2016, 08:21 PM

Scotland requires Westminster to allow them to hold another referendum. But, the indications are that this would only be considered after the negotiation between the EU and the U.K. has been completed. Then, maybe it would be appropriate.

However, the oil price has collapsed and that means Scotland would need to find the money to go it alone. Also, it needs all members to agree for them to join and Spain is reluctant as it would encourage the Catalans to seek the same. Finally, if I'm correct, all new members are required to join the Euro. So, all in all, I see no reason Scotalnd could join the EU. They ultimately could be on their own and in a far worse position.

Posted by: Savage 26.Jun.2016, 08:53 PM

Its quite ironic that Scotland wants to vote for independence, so that they could be part of the EU.
Maybe it would be better not to try and explain it to them.

Posted by: Gjeebes 26.Jun.2016, 09:45 PM

QUOTE (Kari @ 26.Jun.2016, 02:00 PM) *
But there is a big difference. UK voted to leave EU but Scotland voted to stay. Scotland is forced to leave EU and the EU fundings. Spain has not voted to leave EU...

Scotland voted to stay in the UK. And now the "UK" has voted to leave the EU. That's democracy for ya. Quite straightforward really.

Posted by: Kari 26.Jun.2016, 09:58 PM

But most of the Scots wanted to be in a UK within EU. So it stands to reason that they might want to leave UK now.

People only whine about the EU fee but how much did Scotland receive from EU fonds? Of course they would not be well off as an independant country outside EU. But better off as in independant country within EU.

No nation has left EU before. But an autonomous region: Greenland. It took them three years.

QUOTE
Greenlanders voted 52/48 to leave the EU. There followed a series of difficult and protracted negotiations between the Greenland and Danish governments, and the Danish government and the European Commission, particularly with regard to fisheries
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-35233683

52-48 %, sounds very familiar.

Posted by: Kari 26.Jun.2016, 10:57 PM

Therehasbeen a lot of whining about the benefits the EU-migrants get in UK. But what about the benefits Brits get outside of UK?

QUOTE
Unemployed Britons in Europe are drawing much more in benefits and allowances in the wealthier EU countries than their nationals are claiming in the UK, despite the British government’s arguments about migrants flocking in to the country to secure better welfare payments.

---
There are not only far more Britons drawing benefits in these countries than vice versa, but frequently the benefits elsewhere in Europe are much more generous than in the UK. A Briton in France receives more than three times as much as a jobless French person in the UK.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/19/-sp-thousands-britons-claim-benefits-eu

So these expats have reason to worry now. If UK stays in EEA, they don't have to worry. But will UK stay in EEA?
QUOTE
The EEA is based on the same "four freedoms" as the European Community: the free movement of goods, persons, services, and capital among the EEA countries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

Posted by: TheJockMcTavishExperience 27.Jun.2016, 03:23 AM

QUOTE (Kari @ 26.Jun.2016, 09:58 PM) *
People only whine about the EU fee but how much did Scotland receive from EU fonds? Of course they would not be well off as an independant country outside EU.

Kari.

Scotland has received no funds from mainland Europe. None. For 43 years, as part of the UK, they were a net contributor of funds.

Your second sentence perhaps requires some explanation.
,

Posted by: Savage 27.Jun.2016, 06:58 AM

In regards to Scotland, and their desire to go independent.
I wonder if Shetland would choose to leave Scotland and take their oil with them laugh.gif

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/17/shetland-may-reconsider-place-scotland-yes-vote-alistair-carmichael

Imagine if Scotland goes independent, and ends up loosing a sizable chunk of its oil revenue.
Or if Scotland goes independent, only for Shetland to stay united with the remaining elements of the UK.

I cant imagine how Scotland would survive.

Posted by: Hisingen 27.Jun.2016, 09:36 AM

On its whisky, one would think.
They must have a terrific turnover on the German border - selling it to Swedes.
Swedes like kari, who, judging from those wonky postings must be imbibing vast quantities, hence the inebriated texts. tongue.gif

Posted by: LLHope 27.Jun.2016, 11:08 AM

QUOTE (Kari @ 26.Jun.2016, 09:57 PM) *
Therehasbeen a lot of whining about the benefits the EU-migrants get in UK. But what about the benefits Brits get outside of UK?
The article you link is useless comparison provided by a left-leaning pro-EU newspaper. It fails miserably to mention that most of Europe does not have Unemployment Benefit! It is unemployment insurance in most cases, where employers also pay heavily into the pool and there are strict qualification requirements.

It also fails to mention UK Tax Credits, which are not unemployment based but provide HUGE benefits if you get them (even whilst a worker). Low paid workers will most likely receive so-called tax credits, for example, the moment you get any tax credit (yes even 1p) then you are entitled to a mass of other benefits including free dental care!. There are very few countries that offer such, heck you don't even get that when unemployed in Sweden!

Posted by: Kari 28.Jun.2016, 01:33 PM

Here is what will or might happen in UK after the break. (But when will the final break happen? In two years? EU wants UK to get at out as soon as possible but UK seems to be stalling.)

QUOTE ("The Sun")
SO a new independent Britain is dawning as the UK prepares to leave the EU.

But what will it mean for your personal finances?
---
The price of your holiday is likely to rise and the price of a beer abroad will go up
---
Mobile phones charges are capped by the EU so calls abroad could soar
---
Will my mortgage or rent rise?

Interest rates have been at an all-time low for years but the fall in the pound is likely to mean the Bank of England will push up interest rates.

The cost of borrowing may rise by 0.7 per cent to 1.1 per cent and as landlords' costs would increase, rents would also shoot up.
---
How will Brexit affect benefit payments?

If the economy slows down, as the Remain campaign suggests, the income the government receives from taxes will drop.

The shortfall is estimated at between £28billion and £44billion by 2019-2202

This means they may opt for more cuts to save money, or higher taxes to raise more.

Welfare accounts for 28 per cent of Treasury spending so benefits could be hit hard.

A report by the National Institute of Social and Economic Research (Niesr) said some families could lose as much as £2,771 a year.
---
Will taxes go up?
---
More likely is an extended period of austerity.


And some comments:
QUOTE
Why didn't you tell us before?
---
All info it would have been good to know BEFORE the vote. Thanks Sun


Actually the information was known before the referendum but then The Sun and the other Leave-propagandists dismissed this as "scaremongering" and "project fear". Now that the voters have voted "right", the Sun can write about possible negative consequences too.

Some will win, some will loose. And many of the Leave-voters may be on the loosing side. But who cares about money as long as Britain is independant? Not Rupert Murdoch, guess he is well off not to care. And he is an Americina citizen living in New York.

Posted by: Hisingen 28.Jun.2016, 02:04 PM

kari - the king/queen of the cut'n-pasters.
What a tosser.

Posted by: Kari 28.Jun.2016, 03:31 PM

Boris Johnsn (next prime minister?) is painting a very rosy picture of the future:

QUOTE
I cannot stress too much that Britain is part of Europe, and always will be. There will still be intense and intensifying European cooperation and partnership in a huge number of fields: the arts, the sciences, the universities, and on improving the environment. EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU.

British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/26/i-cannot-stress-too-much-that-britain-is-part-of-europe--and-alw/

Too rosy a picture maybe. How can he state that there will be full free movement for Brits but not the corresponding for EU migrants?

QUOTE
Yes, the Government will be able to take back democratic control of immigration policy, with a balanced and humane points-based system to suit the needs of business and industry.


Boris Johnson not only looks like a big baby; he thinks like a child too. Santa will give everything to UK. Is this how many Leave-voter thought it would be? No wonder they voted Leave then. All advantages and no disadvantages.

Posted by: Savage 28.Jun.2016, 04:09 PM

Kari,
I don't understand what you intentions are, or what you are trying to achieve.
You are posting up snippets of information, taken out of context and sometimes from questionable sources and treating them as fact to support your own imagination ?

I do not wish to see you kicked off, but you need calm down and look at this from a factual point of view.

The UK voted for democratic independence from the EU, and this must now be enacted upon.
Regardless if you know someone called Dave or read about others who voted to remain. You pose a very dangerous threat to freedom when you purposely work in a manner to create a false information reality based on fantasy.

If you really want to try and unearth hidden information, I would suggest you focus on Italy and Spains integration into the EU and the dangers this is putting onto France and subsequently Germany. Oh and by the way, the Luxleaks trial judgement is tomorrow, so make sure you keep an eye open to see how deep that info is buried by other stories wink.gif

Posted by: Renfeh Hguh 28.Jun.2016, 04:40 PM

QUOTE (Hisingen @ 28.Jun.2016, 03:04 PM) *
kari - the king/queen of the cut'n-pasters.
What a tosser.

And from such a credible source LOL

Posted by: Hisingen 28.Jun.2016, 04:59 PM

QUOTE (Savage @ 28.Jun.2016, 04:09 PM) *
Kari, I don't understand what you intentions are, or what you are trying to achieve.
You are posting up snippets of information, taken out of context and sometimes from questionable sources and treating them as fact to support your own imagination ?

At a guess, little kari has been spurned by a Brit, and as a result dislikes everything British including the show of democracy that far exceeds that of his/hers/its own country that we know as a referendum. Such was held in Sweden years back, but the result was totally ignored by the government as being 'purely for reference'.
Now anything resembling democratic response, such as the Brexit/Bremain referendum is like a red rag to a bull for our little expert in all things political, including the cut'n paste of strange articles purporting to come from some 'valid source' or other.
Ah well, there are none so blind as - - - - - and as such is more to be pitied than blamed

Posted by: Kari 28.Jun.2016, 05:37 PM

QUOTE (Savage @ 28.Jun.2016, 05:09 PM) *
Kari,
I don't understand what you intentions are, or what you are trying to achieve.
You are posting up snippets of information, taken out of context and sometimes from questionable sources and treating them as fact to support your own imagination ?

I do not wish to see you kicked off, but you need calm down and look at this from a factual point of view.

The UK voted for democratic independence from the EU, and this must now be enacted upon.
Regardl
ess if you know someone called Dave or read about others who voted to remain. You pose a very dangerous threat to freedom when you purposely work in a manner to create a false information reality based on fantasy.

If you really want to try and unearth hidden information, I would suggest you focus on Italy and Spains integration into the EU and the dangers this is putting onto France and subsequently Germany. Oh and by the way, the Luxleaks trial judgement is tomorrow, so make sure you keep an eye open to see how deep that info is buried by other stories wink.gif

Have I quoted some false information? Is it forbidden to quote from papers?

Did not Boris Johnson write what I quoted? Do you think he is right? How do you imagine the future of Britain will be? Which kind of treaty?

Posted by: TLSucks 28.Jun.2016, 08:33 PM

Boris Jonson is a moron if he really thinks the UK can keep all the benefits without making the sacrifices. No way the UK will have access to free movement of workers if it is not fully reciprocal.

Thinking the UK will have the same conditions as Norway is also a bit naive. Norways pays a fee quivalent what they would pay to be in the EU to get access to the common market. Also, Norway fully accepts the conditions on freedom of movement of workers. But most importantly, Norway did not exit. EU needs to make an example of the UK to prevent a domino effect. Unfortunately this also means that there is no way in hell Scotland will be able to join.

Posted by: Renfeh Hguh 28.Jun.2016, 09:22 PM

QUOTE (TLSucks @ 28.Jun.2016, 09:33 PM) *
EU needs to make an example of the UK to prevent a domino effect. Unfortunately this also means that there is no way in hell Scotland will be able to join.

France and Germany will look after themselves firstly and that is to calm down the markets and bring back consumer confidence and if that means making the Brexit painless for everyone, so be it.

If Scotland was to now push for independence on the back of the Brexit, then that will cause more uncertainty in the world economy, so I would expect that the EU will tell Scotland that they will need to go through the same processes as ever other EU applicant country

Posted by: TLSucks 28.Jun.2016, 11:35 PM

QUOTE (Renfeh Hguh @ 28.Jun.2016, 08:22 PM) *
France and Germany will look after themselves firstly and that is to calm down the markets and bring back consumer confidence and if that means making the Brexit painless for everyone, so be it.

If Scotland was to now push for independence on the back of the Brexit, then that will cause more uncertainty in the world economy, so I would expect that the EU will tell Scotland that they will need to go through the same processes as ever other EU applicant country


Spain will veto any attempt from Scotland. If Scotland joins Catalonia and Basque Country will split from Spain.

Posted by: Renfeh Hguh 29.Jun.2016, 06:30 AM

QUOTE (TLSucks @ 29.Jun.2016, 12:35 AM) *
Spain will veto any attempt from Scotland. If Scotland joins Catalonia and Basque Country will split from Spain.

Excellent point!!!

That Nicola Sturgeon does not appear to have the intelligence to realise this. Maybe she needs a reality chat with the Spanish PM.

Posted by: Savage 29.Jun.2016, 07:42 AM

Spain is not the only country which fears the rise of separatists.

Belgium, the very black heart of the EU has been marred in political uncertainty, concerning the low lands the proposal to partition the country. A crisis that has been recently flaring up since the 2007 economic crash.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_Belgium

Posted by: LLHope 29.Jun.2016, 01:29 PM

QUOTE (Renfeh Hguh @ 28.Jun.2016, 08:22 PM) *
France and Germany will look after themselves firstly and that is to calm down the markets and bring back consumer confidence and if that means making the Brexit painless for everyone, so be it.
Germany and France know that not only will the EU lose the 15% budget contribution the UK makes but also that the UK is a major market for them (Germany's #2 export market is UK). They have much more to lose than to gain by being too restrictive. Especially since France's economy is extremely shaky, Italy's banking system is on the verge of collapse, and Germany is already suffering from sanctions against Russia, plus financial system is shaky (Deutsche Bank is certainly in trouble, it had lost 60% of it's value way before Brexit!).

As the UK PM quite rightly said to the other Member State Leaders last night ...The EU needs decide what it is prepared to do to continue having access to the UK via the single market wink.gif

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 30.Jun.2016, 03:08 AM

Poor guy, he thought the EU was secure...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2D8MB5s8Jg

Posted by: Kari 30.Jun.2016, 01:57 PM

So poor Scotland is trapped. They cannot be a member of a UK within EU, and they cannot be a member of EU as an indpendant nation, due to Spain and Belgium.

But which treaty will UK have with EU? Do you really think that they can pick the cherries of the cake, i.e. full freedom for Brits to work within EU but not the same the other way around? Or just tariff-free import and export with EU and no free movement of people?

Posted by: Kari 30.Jun.2016, 02:11 PM

QUOTE (TheJockMcTavishExperience @ 27.Jun.2016, 04:23 AM) *
Kari.

Scotland has received no funds from mainland Europe. None. For 43 years, as part of the UK, they were a net contributor of funds.


How can you say that?

QUOTE
Between 2014 and 2020, both Cornwall and West Wales will receive over €1,000 (£800) per person from the EU Structural and Investment Fund - similar to that received by Romania and Bulgaria.

The Scottish Highlands, East Wales and Tees Valley will all receive over €300 per person.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/01/mapped-where-in-the-uk-receives-most-eu-funding-and-how-does-thi/

Posted by: LLHope 30.Jun.2016, 02:44 PM

QUOTE (Kari @ 30.Jun.2016, 12:57 PM) *
So poor Scotland is trapped. They cannot be a member of a UK within EU, and they cannot be a member of EU as an indpendant nation, due to Spain and Belgium.
@Kari, you clearly do not understand the irony of the Scottish dilemma biggrin.gif. The Fishy First Lady of Scotland, and the largest political party, are the SNP (Scottish Nationalist Party), they are Nationalists that want to break from the UK (Union) to become independent in all respects...yet whilst they say they want to break from a Union, they are fighting to join a Union (European) where the ultimate goal of the EU is to create a more integrated and federalised system along the lines of the USA biggrin.gif ... out of the frying pan and into the fire ... obviously it is just their dislike of the English that drives them into another Union where they will have even less say, and don't forget, for ultimate power from the EU via Brussels it will eventually seek to dissolve National parliaments because they will (are already) become irrelevant.

QUOTE (Kari @ 30.Jun.2016, 12:57 PM) *
But which treaty will UK have with EU? Do you really think that they can pick the cherries of the cake, i.e. full freedom for Brits to work within EU but not the same the other way around? Or just tariff-free import and export with EU and no free movement of people?
Yes and Yes. in any negotiation both sides should always open with their strongest position. UK says no freedom of movement for single market access by EU to UK, and EU say you must accept all 4 principles or no access to the EU single market ... from there is where the negotiation starts. Mind You, according to many reports many of the EU countries are already saying the EU should back down a little!. In addition to this it needs to be remembered that UK is a net importer, the net exports from Germany to the UK are 2x the net exports from the UK to Germany. Germany cannot afford to lose that business as the knock-on effect will be great across industry. SO they have to start immediately pretending they have a strong stubborn position. What deal will the end result in, no-one knows, negotiations haven't started since UK haven't activated Article 50. They actually do not need an agreement, WTO rules means the UK already has access to the markets, just means tariffs are to be applied (by both sides). For example 10% on motor vehicles, 35% on dairy products... It should be noted that the Scottish Fishing industry is pleased with the Brexit as it means they can get back their fishing rights which have largely been given to the Dutch by the EU ...and this will also benefit other coastal regions that have been devastated by EU quota allotments. ...looking forward to the good old Cod-Wars!

QUOTE (Kari @ 30.Jun.2016, 01:11 PM) *
How can you say that?
How can you not understand that net-contributor means you put in more than you get out! haven't we been through this already...there are reasons the monies come via EU, because the UK gov. cannot allocate according the restrictions. Once out of EU they could, and probably save money also!

Posted by: Kari 30.Jun.2016, 03:29 PM

QUOTE (Renfeh Hguh @ 28.Jun.2016, 05:40 PM) *
And from such a credible source LOL



I have quoted from BBC, The Telegraph and The Guardian. So none of them is a reliable source? I wonder which sources you find reliable then.

Posted by: LLHope 30.Jun.2016, 04:04 PM

QUOTE (Kari @ 30.Jun.2016, 12:57 PM) *
Or just tariff-free import and export with EU and no free movement of people?
Oops!, missed that bit ... YES!. Whilst the EU gang say the fundamental Freedoms are not negotiable ... Everyone seems to forget that little tiny place called Liechtenstein. They are a member of the EEA, which is a bridge between EU-EFTA, and whilst they have access to the single market and so-forth, they have restrictions upon Freedom of Movement. In fact, they implement a quota based system for EEA Citizens (EEA/EFTA/EU). Now that is a possible solution, including the 5 year reviews that take place wink.gif

Posted by: Kari 30.Jun.2016, 04:04 PM

QUOTE (LLHope @ 30.Jun.2016, 03:44 PM) *
@Kari, you clearly do not understand the irony of the Scottish dilemma biggrin.gif. The Fishy First Lady of Scotland, and the largest political party, are the SNP (Scottish Nationalist Party), they are Nationalists that want to break from the UK (Union) to become independent in all respects...yet whilst they say they want to break from a Union, they are fighting to join a Union (European) where the ultimate goal of the EU is to create a more integrated and federalised system along the lines of the USA biggrin.gif ... out of the frying pan and into the fire ... obviously it is just their dislike of the English that drives them into another Union where they will have even less say, and don't forget, for ultimate power from the EU via Brussels it will eventually seek to dissolve National parliaments because they will (are already) become irrelevant.

I know very well what you call "irony". It as the same with Czechoslovakia, they are now two nations, both members of EU. If Catalonia was an independent state, it would also want to be a part of EU. Yugoslavia dissolved in many nations, some are now members of EU, others are candidates.


QUOTE
How can you not understand that net-contributor means you put in more than you get out! haven't we been through this already...there are reasons the monies come via EU, because the UK gov. cannot allocate according the restrictions. Once out of EU they could, and probably save money also!

I know this very well also. UK is a net-contributer (but with a special discount) just like Sweden. But Scotland and Wales are the regions on the receiving end. Maybe Scotland fears the UK will not be as generous as the EU.

Posted by: LLHope 30.Jun.2016, 04:16 PM

QUOTE (Kari @ 30.Jun.2016, 03:04 PM) *
I know very well what you call "irony".
Sorry, you just showed you do not! Nationalists wanting to join a Union???

QUOTE (Kari @ 30.Jun.2016, 03:04 PM) *
Maybe Scotland fears the UK will not be as generous as the EU.
And you don't understand that the UK already gives around 15 Billion to Scotland!. It is already very generous, yet outside of the EU it could be more-so. That is assuming the Scots could actually join the EU! YOu need to keep in mind that an independent Scotland would lose 15 Billion it receives from the UK, then it would have to find in it's budget the membership fee (it would in theory be a net contributor, which means ... more in than out), so there they 30 billion down (Scotland's membership fee to EU would be around 15 billion). Next, they would have to establish a currency, they use Sterling now and the Bank of England has said they certainly cannot use it if Independent. The currency would have to sit in the ERM for a number of years before they could even consider joining the Euro. They cannot take Euro from the start because their national debt would be tooooooo high, wouldn't meet the requirements for Euro (not even using the German gold reserve calculation cheat), then they would also place a large cost on Scottish business because 2/3rds of exports are to the UK ...what is going on at the moment with regards Scotland is an attempt by the Fishy First Lady to build political capital with a hopeful view of convincing the Scots to vote in favour of Independence...and less to do with the EU. Gosh, prior to the current leader of SNP, the Scots have been VERY anti-EU biggrin.gif

Posted by: Hisingen 30.Jun.2016, 04:48 PM

Unfortunately there is very, very little of which kari is truly aware, relying, as that individual does, on some very strange sources.
rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Renfeh Hguh 30.Jun.2016, 05:46 PM

QUOTE (Kari @ 30.Jun.2016, 04:29 PM) *
I have quoted from BBC, The Telegraph and The Guardian. So none of them is a reliable source? I wonder which sources you find reliable then.

Oooops you forgot to mention that you included a long quote from "The Sun"

Just a shame you did not include a page 3 girl with that quote

http://www.thelocal.se/discuss/index.php?s=&showtopic=83796&view=findpost&p=894807

Posted by: Kari 30.Jun.2016, 06:01 PM

And I showed you that this "irony" goes för all breakaway states from Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia. If this seems illogical to you, it's b/c nationalism is all about feelings, not about logic.

So the Scottish people don't know what is best for them and voted wrong?

Posted by: Kari 30.Jun.2016, 06:07 PM

QUOTE (Renfeh Hguh @ 30.Jun.2016, 06:46 PM) *
Oooops you forgot to mention that you included a long quote from "The Sun"

Just a shame you did not include a page 3 girl with that quote

http://www.thelocal.se/discuss/index.php?s=&showtopic=83796&view=findpost&p=894807

Yes, and my point was that the The Sun now wrote what Bremain said before the referendum. So did both lie? (The reason that you missed my point might be that you are not as bright as you think you are. Or just that you prefer to "misunderstand". I see a lot of this on this board. Almost like Flashback.)

And you evaded my question, which sources are reliable?

Posted by: Renfeh Hguh 30.Jun.2016, 09:10 PM

QUOTE (Kari @ 30.Jun.2016, 07:01 PM) *
And I showed you that this "irony" goes för all breakaway states from Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia. If this seems illogical to you, it's b/c nationalism is all about feelings, not about logic.

So the Scottish people don't know what is best for them and voted wrong?

The Spanish probably couldn't care less if the UK split apart totally unless it could be seen as giving encouragement to Catalonia and other regions who have breakaway dreams. Guess what, offering EU encouragement to a breakaway region of an EU member, even if they are leaving, will be the type of encouragement Spain will want to avoid.

Posted by: LLHope 30.Jun.2016, 09:48 PM

QUOTE (Kari @ 30.Jun.2016, 05:01 PM) *
it's b/c nationalism is all about feelings, not about logic.
The UK referendum was only about feeling, feeling that had built up for 40 years and finally they got chance to voice the opinion.

As for Scotland, do not confuse voting to keep the UK (not Scotland) in the EU is NOT the same as voting for Scotland to be independent and out of the UK. This is where the SNP is on dodgy ground at the moment, they are trying to gain political capital for their independence move by claiming Scotland wants to stay in the EU, but forget that almost 40% of their own party supporters voted for the UK to Leave the EU!

QUOTE (Kari @ 30.Jun.2016, 05:01 PM) *
So the Scottish people don't know what is best for them and voted wrong?
There is NO such thing as a wrong vote, even a destroyed ballot paper is correct. The most important thing is to get out and take part, only then can you whine about the result if it doesn't go your way.

Posted by: Hisingen 30.Jun.2016, 10:00 PM

It does make you wonder if little kari is eligible to vote, or even where, hence all this babble about Brits and their, according to kari, wrong vote.
The knowledeg that other people can make their voice heard, as in a referendum, seems not to have penetrated a certain skull. Note i only said skull, the contents of which are open for discussion, quite literally. . . cool.gif .

Posted by: Savage 30.Jun.2016, 11:24 PM

QUOTE (Kari @ 30.Jun.2016, 02:57 PM) *
So poor Scotland is trapped. They cannot be a member of a UK within EU, and they cannot be a member of EU as an indpendant nation, due to Spain and Belgium.



I think your statement of "poor Scotland" is more true than you understand.
Scotland is poor, and it cant really survive on its own.

Scotland needs a new sugar daddy, and having become accustomed to merits of living within the union of crowns.
It has led to an expectation of quality of life, which Scotland can not achieve as an independent nation.
This has in part led to the union staying together so long, as it serves both interests even if there is a disproportionate cost to the English.

But the EU don't want to pay for Scotland as another bitch nation.

The most interesting thing i find is the racist hatred the Scots often to show to the English. And the acceptance of such. Whereas the English usually just see Scotland as varying levels of northernness or that place that produces dodgy money which is always a pain to try and spend when you find it in your change or pockets.

 
 

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 30.Jun.2016, 11:42 PM

England is leaving the EU...not Scotland...So the existing ties will still apply...Right???

Posted by: LLHope 1.Jul.2016, 07:47 AM

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock @ 30.Jun.2016, 10:42 PM) *
England is leaving the EU...not Scotland...So the existing ties will still apply...Right???
One of the statements from the Leader of SNP that really made me laugh was when she said that Scotland could continue in the EU if England and Wales left the UK biggrin.gif

Posted by: Hisingen 1.Jul.2016, 01:02 PM

The sturgeon looks and sounds more like a merkel with every passing day. Both have problems, wanting to be top dog, the one getting pretty close, the other more like a little puppy. Makes you wonder how things will end. Add to that there is another wanting to be top dog in the UK, now that Bojo has been stabbed in the back by the Gove. 'May' we see a new Maggy in due course or what?? Corbyn is taking a lot of flak from (almost) all quarters, so a change is llkely there, too.
All in all, the Brexit has put the cat well and truly among the pigeons - and the budgies, and the canaries.
Now the French are saying that the UK may be looked upon somewhat more favourably - in contrast to what the EUSSR fat cats are saying.
I was in favour of a Bexit, but what is happening as a result was clearly something not really expected.
A Eurupheaval and no mistake, with the ripples spreading far and wide. Not exactly a storm in a teacup.

Posted by: Kari 7.Jul.2016, 01:01 AM

QUOTE (LLHope @ 30.Jun.2016, 05:04 PM) *
Oops!, missed that bit ... YES!. Whilst the EU gang say the fundamental Freedoms are not negotiable ... Everyone seems to forget that little tiny place called Liechtenstein. They are a member of the EEA, which is a bridge between EU-EFTA, and whilst they have access to the single market and so-forth, they have restrictions upon Freedom of Movement. In fact, they implement a quota based system for EEA Citizens (EEA/EFTA/EU). Now that is a possible solution, including the 5 year reviews that take place wink.gif

Maybe Liechtenstein has exceptions b/c it is such a small country.

Let't compare with Switzerland instead. Switzerland is not a member of EU and not of EEA either. But they are a part of Schengen. They have a special treaty (similar to the EEA-countries Norway and Iceland). But Switzerland had a referendum too, in 2014. People voted against the free movement of labour.
Now a new treaty has to be made. And nothing seems to happen, though it has passed over two years. Will the treaty between EU and UK take such a long time too?

QUOTE ("BBC")
Switzerland has signed up to free movement of people, with all the benefits that implies for workers and their families from the EU, and to Schengen open borders, all without ever being at the negotiating table at which those policies were drafted.
Switzerland contributes billions of dollars to EU projects on research, education, culture and security. The Swiss even paid 1.3bn Swiss francs (€1.18bn; £910m) to the EU enlargement fund, designed to support new members from Eastern Europe.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35615604

And about Erasmus after the Swiss referendum:
QUOTE
Swiss universities were blocked from European research projects. Swiss students were denied access to the Erasmus exchange programme.
"Being kicked out of that scheme represents a real handicap," says Andreas Mortensen, Vice-Provost of Switzerland's prestigious Federal Institute of Technology in Lausanne.
"As a researcher, you would certainly rather want to remain within the EU. The benefits from being part of the EU research community are the intellectual oomph and the opportunities for collaboration."
---
In the end the Swiss government solved Zilia Schwartz's problem by throwing money at it, paying each European university separately to admit Swiss students.

Posted by: Hisingen 7.Jul.2016, 10:05 AM

QUOTE (Kari @ 7.Jul.2016, 12:01 AM) *
- - - -.

Will the treaty between EU and UK take such a long time too?

Don't you know?

And we all thought that you were the 'expert' on everything!

tongue.gif

Posted by: Savage 7.Jul.2016, 10:33 AM

QUOTE (Kari @ 7.Jul.2016, 01:01 AM) *
Maybe Liechtenstein has exceptions b/c it is such a small country.

Let't compare with Switzerland instead.


What?
Seriously, you can not have a discussion where you look to favour the odds of your argument by bringing in useless comparisons to try and justify your view.

Switzerland has very little in common with the UK in terms of economic clout. And it is this clout which will determine if the UK and EU will work out a deal. Switzerland's main export market is the EU, whereas the UK is not.

Many other factors are also key components to any deal, to which the UK differs significantly compared to Switzerland.
And that is why Switzerland has bugger all to do with your attempts to troll with claims that border on SNPish.

Posted by: Kari 7.Jul.2016, 02:15 PM

QUOTE (Savage @ 7.Jul.2016, 11:33 AM) *
What?
Seriously, you can not have a discussion where you look to favour the odds of your argument by bringing in useless comparisons to try and justify your view.

Switzerland has very little in common with the UK in terms of economic clout. And it is this clout which will determine if the UK and EU will work out a deal. Switzerland's main export market is the EU, whereas the UK is not.

Many other factors are also key components to any deal, to which the UK differs significantly compared to Switzerland.
And that is why Switzerland has bugger all to do with your attempts to troll with claims that border on SNPish.

Well, Switzerland is more similar to UK than Liechtenstein. And I've read on this forum that UKutside would have it asgood as another non-EU-country like prosperous Switzerland. And I did not read anything about trolling then. Even BBC writes about Switzerland in connection with the Brexit referendum. Are they trolling too?

Accusing anyone who has different points of view for trolling is very bad argumention. You could have refrained from such outbursts, then I would take your arguments more seriously. Now I see you as someone who really hates arguments or questions from certain people you've decided to dislike.

Maybe Switzerland has to wait for the treaty EU-UK to be accomplished and not the other way around. Then they will have to wait two, maybe three more years. By then, they may have another referendum.

Posted by: LLHope 8.Jul.2016, 09:04 AM

QUOTE (Kari @ 7.Jul.2016, 12:01 AM) *
Maybe Liechtenstein has exceptions b/c it is such a small country.
The point not being the size of Liechtenstein or any other state, but rather the fact that the Freedom of Movement can indeed be negotiated. At the end of the day, if the EU doesn't want to negotiate it then the negotiations will be extremely quick, UK exit fast, and everyone can get on with business one way or another. Not having Freedom of Movement does not stop access to the market.

QUOTE (Kari @ 7.Jul.2016, 12:01 AM) *
And about Erasmus after the Swiss referendum:
Complain to the EU Commission, and your MEPs (if you know who they are?), at least Switzerland has put in place measures to continue to fund Swiss students being educated in Europe, but the EU would rather use their education as a bargaining chip. Isn't this organisation you claim keeps the peace by trade yet issues threats and intimidation to get it's way! (and I wont mention how they broke encouraged minor conflicts in Yugoslavia in order to get support for independence and a corridor to the Adriatic, nor how they have just released info about how Aid money will be made available to fund military actions in Africa!)

The closing words go to a man of wisdom:

"The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe." Mikhail Gorbachev, former president of the USSR.

Posted by: Hisingen 8.Jul.2016, 12:07 PM

QUOTE (LLHope @ 8.Jul.2016, 08:04 AM) *
- - - -
The closing words go to a man of wisdom:
"The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe." Mikhail Gorbachev, former president of the USSR.

Totally wasted on little kari, who cannot see the wood for the trees.

Posted by: Kari 12.Jul.2016, 01:51 AM

QUOTE (LLHope @ 8.Jul.2016, 10:04 AM) *
The point not being the size of Liechtenstein or any other state, but rather the fact that the Freedom of Movement can indeed be negotiated. At the end of the day, if the EU doesn't want to negotiate it then the negotiations will be extremely quick, UK exit fast, and everyone can get on with business one way or another. Not having Freedom of Movement does not stop access to the market.

I don't understand what you mean by "quick". If it took over 3 years for little Greenland, why would it be any quicker for big UK?

You think that UK can get a treaty with EU without the clause of Free Movement of people. Why would EU agree to that? B/c EU (27 states) needs UK more than the other way around? Sounds a bit arrogant to me, though you may be right, I just don't understand how you can be so cocksure.

Seems Brexit means bad news for Switzerland:
QUOTE ("Financial Times")
But the timing of the UK vote was bad for Switzerland. A three-year deadline for implementing the 2014 referendum result expires next February.

“Brexit will mean a bumpy ride because of the spillovers,” says Alexis Lautenberg, former Swiss ambassador to the UK. “Short term, it will penalise Switzerland because we don’t know the policy trade-offs that will be decided for the UK — and won’t for some time.”
https://next.ft.com/content/e4c7f5a0-4288-11e6-b22f-79eb4891c97d

There will proably have to be a new referendum - for Switzerland.

Posted by: Kari 12.Jul.2016, 02:00 AM

There will be other treaties for UK to enter. With USA for instance.

QUOTE
Barack Obama was right: the UK will be at the back of the queue for trade deals with the US now it is leaving the EU, the American Ambassador to Britain has said.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-barack-obama-was-right-britain-uk-will-be-at-the-back-of-the-queue-for-trade-deals-says-a7116741.html

We (USA) love you (UK) but you're last in line now, seems to be the message. Well, you always have this "special relationship" with USA. I have interpreted this relationship as "UK will always be the lapdog of USA" (remember Tony Blari and the invasion of Irak). Or "Far away USA will always mean more to UK then neighbouring EU-countries".

Bottom line, quick it will not be.

Posted by: LLHope 14.Jul.2016, 08:39 AM

QUOTE (Kari @ 12.Jul.2016, 12:51 AM) *
I don't understand what you mean by "quick". If it took over 3 years for little Greenland, why would it be any quicker for big UK? You think that UK can get a treaty with EU without the clause of Free Movement of people.
Quick as in, you didn't read what was written wink.gif If the EU do not want to budge on Freedom of Movement and link everything to that, then there is nothing much to negotiate with regards trade, just to fall back to trade with no agreement. With the UK being a net importer of EU goods then the tariffs applied to EU products will boost UK income by 2+ billion pounds, that money can be used to indirectly support businesses to reduce indirect costs and negate the effect of tariffs for products going the other way wink.gif ...in addition to that, the UK will start immediately negotiations with non-EU countries on free trade agreements. Those negotiations are quicker as they are country-to-country and normally take approx. 1 to 2 years to agree, and they will do many countries in parallel. The potential is that by the time the 2 year exit period is over the UK could have free trade agreements with markets that are 2x the size of the EU. The EU is the side that will suffer the most because it's main players are quite against free-trade, this is why Sweden is also sad the UK will leave as UK and Sweden are the 2 main members that promote free trade rather than protectionism (well, up until the socialists got into government here!).

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