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Liberals say Sweden must join NATO

But public surveys show only 25% support

Thebinary1
post 13.May.2009, 09:03 PM
Post #16
Joined: 4.Nov.2006

Anyone know why was NATO created in the first place?
Well - after reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO - it should be obvious why it would be better for Sweden to stay out of NATO.

Don't get me wrong, co-operation in one thing, independence is another.

By all means - Sweden's Defence Force should be engaged in active co-operation with NATO simply because Sweden is an extension of NATO's purpose in defending Europe. However, it should be a right for Sweden to refuse and deny NATO's agenda if Sweden sees differently from NATO. This is the sole reason for supporting the status-quo.

Additionally, I find the language for "the right of first refusal" pretty scary. I mean, if Europe is being invaded - and NATO acts, but its response is not completely effective (for Sweden) ... NATO could in practice decide to consolidate its defences to cover a smaller area using foreign armies. So if Sweden joined NATO, and an invasion force starts to make its way from the North Pole towards Brussels - NATO reserves full rights in using Sweden's Airforce to abandon the defence over Lappland and consolidate Sweden's Airforce with the Airforce of other NATO members over Brussels. Granted that the probability of such an invasion force from the North Pole is very remote, the fact that a possibility exists for NATO to behave in what I have just described above is very disturbing.

Hence why I say, co-operation is better than joining - simply because when disagreements arise ... being un-cooperative is much more easier and quicker to execute than un-joining.
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*johnnytango*
post 13.May.2009, 09:16 PM
Post #17


SebSeb hit the nail on the head. NATO vs. the war on Terror...what a scam. False flag operations used to fight two separate wars and USA is slowly being sucked down with their military options. Oblabla Obama and the crew he has surrounded himself with is no different with his stepped up operations in Afghan and Pakistan. Why would anybody in their right mind advocate joining in on that mess?
Scandanavian Union is the way to go...then you would have a model for the rest of the world to look to. Peace to all on the Earth. Swedish policy of uninvolvment is brilliant. Minding your own business is a good thing. Globalism is overrated...twenty years later the world is bankrupt. No to NATO...absolutely not!!!
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sebseb
post 13.May.2009, 09:44 PM
Post #18
Joined: 7.Mar.2009

Being into NATO means having to fight imaginary terrorist in Pakistan and eventually Iran. (we don't know what Israel is able to)
A sure thing, is if we have a huge war, Europe will have to choose between being friend with Russia and China or with the USA.
Since I live in Europe, that I actually have a lot of respect for Putin since he is not an hypocrit, he speaks out (contrary to what we have seen in the US), I back China and Russia. Europe depend on Russia for natural gas. China is going to be the new power.
We don't need the USA. I live in Sweden, so I don't want to mess with Russia and China.
The USA are finished. They should have tried to be friend with the Latin American countries. At least, they have Canada as a puppet...
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jsrassat
post 13.May.2009, 10:15 PM
Post #19
Joined: 28.Feb.2009

Sweden joining NATO would be about as large of a mistake as joining the EU. Anything that strips national sovereignty is a poor choice in my opinion, even if it is "co-operative."
Eventually everyone will compromise, that's just the way the infection spreads.
"And our freedom's consuming itself,
What we've become is contrary to what we want
Take a bow."
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Braderunner Rennuredarb
post 13.May.2009, 10:27 PM
Post #20
Location: Not in Sweden
Joined: 24.May.2005

QUOTE (sebseb @ 13.May.2009, 09:44 PM) *
Since I live in Europe, that I actually have a lot of respect for Putin since he is not an hypocrit, he speaks out (contrary to what we have seen in the US), I back China and ... (show full quote)

So...let me get this straight:

1: You respect Putin and you want to gob his knob because Europe depends on Russia for natural gas?
2: You back China because they are going to be a new power?

Translation: You are scared Russia and China will squash, so you support them in hopes they wont squash you.

Typisk.
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Kooritze
post 13.May.2009, 11:25 PM
Post #21
Joined: 13.May.2009

Sweden,s conduct during the second world war was nothing more than shameful. While other countries in Europe faced a life and death struggle...Sweden did business with both sides and profited. Europeans do not forget this, and I,m sure the Norwegians dont. To even call yourself neutral is also hypocritical when Sweden still profits from weapons sales today.
Not really bothered if Sweden joins NATO. Certainly Swedes can bet on the lack of respect (though not openly or officially) due to the country,s history as being gutless opportunists in wartime...it,s what most think.
Still, Sweden could be a nice location for a few American bases or some missle silos. Military personel can expect to be bored shitless though!
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voidplay
post 13.May.2009, 11:28 PM
Post #22
Location: Gothenburg
Joined: 21.Jul.2008

There is no great difference between joining NATO or not joining it. Which ever makes economic sense.
The UN has not succeeded in preventing wars, and it has been caught up in more scams than success stories. None of the 'Soverign' countries have succeded in preventing the Iraq war. Save for few small and insignificant entities the Iraq war seemed to have every ones approval.

But let us take into consideration the Iraq war and what Sweden (or any pro-NATO) country could get out of it. Iraq war to me seems to be a last attempt to twart the recession, we should be sure they knew it all along.

Reconstruction money, Vehicles (Volvo, scania), construction contracts, ever thing from cellular networks (Ericsson) to radio stations. These will be from loans given by USA and close allies in imaginary money with imagimery value and will instead hold 'proportionate' interest in the Iraqi assets (oil?). This will probably keep Dollars and Euros high inspite of making the biggest losses every where. Good reasons to join EU or NATO ?

But like it or not the whole of europe (all of western + most eastern) +USA+Canada+Australia is already a single country and have always been since WW2.
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Kooritze
post 13.May.2009, 11:55 PM
Post #23
Joined: 13.May.2009

The superpower comment made me laugh too!! I must have missed that fact during European history reading. My whole concept of Europe is turned upside down, for what I thought 300 years ago was a land made up of largely peasants was actually a superpower! Watch out NATO...the BIG BOYS are thinking of joining the game!
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casinoed
post 14.May.2009, 05:58 AM
Post #24
Joined: 14.Oct.2008

To be fair he did say that Sweden was "kind of" a superpower.
I suppose he was just giving yet another example of the Swedish humility thing they harp on about.
It always reminds me of the old Mac Davis "O Lord, it's hard to be humble, when you're perfect in every way..."
Sing along everyone...
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casinoed
post 14.May.2009, 06:42 AM
Post #25
Joined: 14.Oct.2008

9 posts was probably a little early to go getting all rattled about this subject, Kaethar

First, you need to accept this is a site dealing with Swedish news in the English language. That means lots of visitors, like myself, will have parents and grandparents who made unimaginable sacrifices to rid the world of Hitler and the Nazis.

I dunno what they teach Swedish kids in schools, but every Swede should be made to study a map of Europe in 1942 to decide for themselves whether their parents and grandparents did the right thing by looking the other way while Europe burned.

Perhaps then we might start to see a bit of genuine humility from Swedes and, gulp, possibly even an acknowledgement.

And as for Sweden-bashing, get over yourself Kaethar. Brits and Americans are constantly being vilified for standing up for what we believe in, but you won't hear us cry foul about it.
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skane refugee
post 14.May.2009, 08:03 AM
Post #26
Joined: 14.May.2008

QUOTE (Jan M @ 13.May.2009, 02:26 PM) *
Does Swedish military 'non-alignment' or neutrality date back to the Second World War and earlier conflicts? Certainly that definition from the Second World War is sli ... (show full quote)


Do you have a source for the export credits during WW2 point?

Sweden was by far Germanys biggest wartime trading partner providing all manner of vital miltary supplies (often using technology and machinery directly from Germany) from a 'you can't bomb us we're "neutral" ' manufacturing base ... but I had always assumed that the exports were in exchange for cash/gold etc ...

If they offered export credits then Swedens true wartime history is even more damning than I had imagined ... Swedish exports were certainly responsible for prolonging that awful conflict ... around a million died per month, many more towards the end of the war ... so it is anyones guess how many were deliberately sacrificed to 'enrich' the Swedish people and launch her multinational companies (hauntingly ... the true figure could exceed the population of Sweden of course)

In one of the most important books to date on Swedens WW2 role 'the art of cloaking' it was shown conclusively from archive material that the Wallenberg family (behind Ericsson, Electrolux and a host of household name Swedish multinationals) secured the looted wealth of Holland for themselves and the people of Sweden through provision of vital Swedish supplies to Hitlers Reich during the war ... the book shows to what extraordinary lengths the Wallenberg family (with the tacit support of the Swedish authorities) went to 'launder' their ill-gotten gains. Would bet that similar activities went on to secure for Sweden the looted wealth of many other occupied nations and indeed of holocaust victims, though the Dutch authors only focussed on Hollands lost wealth.

There was a recent thread asking what is Sweden best at in the world ... my candidates would be 'cloaking', 'spin' and 'denial' ;o)
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Nemesis
post 14.May.2009, 08:13 AM
Post #27
Location: Skåne
Joined: 14.Apr.2009

Yes, now it is safe, to join NATO.
During WW2 Sweden actively helped the nazis and was surrounded by them, to the point of loan guarentees and allowing through troop shipments even though that was a breach of Swedish neutrality.
Hitler planned to nazify Sweden. Goering talked him into suspending it until Russia was dealt with, otherwise Sweden was next. I wonder how Sweden's insane rules and political fantasies, would have stood up to a panzer tank.
Ordinary Swedes helped Finland, Denmark and Norway as much as possible, but a lot joined up with the nazi's,
Sweden needs to wake up. It needs to join NATO as that is by default who has really been giving it protection sine 1945. Also Sweden needs to join the Euro, regulate its banks properly, drop the hypocrisy and act like an adult.
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Bender B Rodriquez
post 14.May.2009, 09:14 AM
Post #28
Joined: 25.Mar.2006

Wow, so many know-it-alls...
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Kooritze
post 14.May.2009, 09:24 AM
Post #29
Joined: 13.May.2009

Maybe the Nordic Alliance idea is the way to go guys! The Norwegians could then rest easy knowing that their reliable powerful neighbour will protect them in times of need (by the way I,m being sarcastic).
Get the Finns on board and they can protect you all! A small nation but they sure know how to put up a fight...The Red Army got a taste of their fighting spirit!
As for the Nazification comment earlier on by Nemesis...I dont think it would be too difficult to achieve even now. Despite all this political correctness and liberal ideas...just under the surface, Sweden is one of the most racist states I,ve come across in Europe. Superior, Master Race mentality. Give them a drink though and they turn into 3 yr olds!!!
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kaze
post 14.May.2009, 10:58 AM
Post #30
Joined: 22.Mar.2008

I don't see the point.
The only one of Sweden's neighbours who could even remotely possibly decide to attack them is Russia and if that happens NATO is going to help anyway.


Sweden in WW2: Come on, what other choice did they have? Once Norway had fallen they had to stay neutral or they were screwed. And neutral they did stay- it just so happens that by virtue of geography they were in a far better position for trading with the 'bad guy' Germany (they looked bad but the worst was not to be revealed for a long time) than with the UK.
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