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The Local _ Newcomers _ Moving to Sweden in 2022

Posted by: JonathanR 18.May.2020, 03:08 PM


Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 18.May.2020, 03:14 PM

It's Norrland for trees...Pulp/lumber and machinery...

Posted by: JonathanR 18.May.2020, 03:38 PM

Thanks for the reply!

We certainly like the look of the area around G?vle, but the further north we go, the further it is for us to drive back to the UK when we need to. That's the main constraint.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 18.May.2020, 03:50 PM

"drive back to the UK"...No planes???

Posted by: JonathanR 18.May.2020, 04:08 PM

They are an option, but with family in Germany, a drive back from Sweden isn't that daunting.

Posted by: Mrs Robinsson 18.May.2020, 04:43 PM

Obviously you need to network like crazy, meet and have long discussions with people who have tried or are already doing what you plan. If you haven't already you need to understand the bureaucratic and regulatory environment.

Many people on this forum would strongly advise you to get to know other non-Swedes who have lived in Sweden for a few years. Learn about their experience. How did their spouses and kids handle it?There are dozens, maybe hundreds of entries on this forum about the Swedish mentality. And how insane it makes many (most?) non-Swedes to live with this tribe.

Most people I have spoken with liked many things about Sweden, but had major difficulties with the soul-killing behaviour of the locals. Any way you can go there for a few months, preferably in the winter to give it a test drive?


Don't ask any Swedes because they will always tell you things are perfect there.




Posted by: JonathanR 18.May.2020, 05:00 PM


Posted by: skogsbo 18.May.2020, 05:03 PM

A brief reply now as I've not much time.

I live in kronoberg and work in forestry and agriculture.

There is limited forest south of kronoberg and it gets flatter too, areas around Lund will seem more like lincs or Norfolk to you. It's prime agri land, not forest.

Northern sweden, yields are lower due to climate and altitude, forest is cheaper, but margins are tighter etc... southern to central sweden is your optimum forest.

Covid might change things a little but you've two years yet. Timber is stacked up at the ports as no one is building in Europe. Plus many in sweden who own forest but have a normal job are cutting whilst their day job is closed down.

Much of the work is done by smaller owner operator companies do contract big and small. The boss plus 3 or 4 employees who might run shifts through a harvester and forwarder etc... it will be tough to break into cold.

Many diversify with clearing, thinning, planting etc..

Must dash I'll answer any queries you have another time.

Posted by: JonathanR 18.May.2020, 05:09 PM

QUOTE (skogsbo @ 18.May.2020, 05:03 PM) *
A brief reply now as I've not much time.

I live in kronoberg and work in forestry and agriculture.

There is limited forest south of kronoberg and it gets flatter too, areas around Lund will seem more like lincs or Norfolk to you. It's prime agri land, not forest.

Northern sweden, yields are lower due to climate and altitude, forest is cheaper, but margins are tighter etc... southern to central sweden is your optimum forest.

Covid might change things a little but you've two years yet. Timber is stacked up at the ports as no one is building in Europe. Plus many in sweden who own forest but have a normal job are cutting whilst their day job is closed down.

Much of the work is done by smaller owner operator companies do contract big and small. The boss plus 3 or 4 employees who might run shifts through a harvester and forwarder etc... it will be tough to break into cold.

Many diversify with clearing, thinning, planting etc..

Must dash I'll answer any queries you have another time.


Incredibly helpful answer, thank you!

My passion is low impact forestry, so the plan is to move to Sweden with something like a Malwa 560c kombi machine. With the very mild winter last year, I am hoping to capitalise on the poor winter ground conditions which preclude the use of full-sized machines. I just want to do first thinnings in conifers.

Sk?ne does indeed look very flat and boring. Not my cup of tea really. Central to Southern Sweden is where we have been looking up to now. We don't want to be too far from my brother in law in Lidk?ping either.

Posted by: TheExpatEagle 18.May.2020, 06:45 PM

I've lived in Sweden for almost 20 years and have family all along the south of England so I am curious to know what you mean by chaos in southern England? I ask because some areas of Sweden are just as chaotic depending what you mean.

That aside, I have no experience in the forestry industry but if I were you I would get used to not receiving replies from employers and so on be it in Swedish or English. It is pretty standard. Sweden will have high unemployment and it will be interesting how things will go after Covid-19 here.

I would try to learn as much Swedish as you can now because if you can't speak any Swedish it will be really difficult for you to get work. I know people who have moved here with a profession such as chefs, HGV drivers and the like and they get knocked back because they can't understand Swedish.

Sweden is all about contacts and networking. Employers do practise discrimination (not racism) as they think it is important that people fit in. They don't like people who work too much, can't blend in (language) and people do complain if they feel left out. They favour Swedish workers so you need to be ahead of them and stand out.

Some jobs get hundreds of applications and most are just discarded, which is why you won't get a reply. If they think employing you will cause the workplace to become more English (which is very easy to happen) it will go against you. Even schools here have employed rules to stop foreign kids speaking English in class to other kids.

Despite the image not everyone can speak and understand English and employment law is strong here. At least this is my experience and that of people who have moved here over the past 2 or 3 years.

Also in 2022 you might need to take a new driving test to get a Swedish driving licence because as things stand we don't know what the regulation will be for Brits and Brexit. You definitely won't be able to work in the transport industry without a Swedish licence.

Good luck... You'll need it.

Posted by: JonathanR 18.May.2020, 09:58 PM

QUOTE (TheExpatEagle @ 18.May.2020, 06:45 PM) *
I've lived in Sweden for almost 20 years and have family all along the south of England so I am curious to know what you mean by chaos in southern England? I ask because some areas of Sweden are just as chaotic depending what you mean.

That aside, I have no experience in the forestry industry but if I were you I would get used to not receiving replies from employers and so on be it in Swedish or English. It is pretty standard. Sweden will have high unemployment and it will be interesting how things will go after Covid-19 here.

I would try to learn as much Swedish as you can now because if you can't speak any Swedish it will be really difficult for you to get work. I know people who have moved here with a profession such as chefs, HGV drivers and the like and they get knocked back because they can't understand Swedish.

Sweden is all about contacts and networking. Employers do practise discrimination (not racism) as they think it is important that people fit in. They don't like people who work too much, can't blend in (language) and people do complain if they feel left out. They favour Swedish workers so you need to be ahead of them and stand out.

Some jobs get hundreds of applications and most are just discarded, which is why you won't get a reply. If they think employing you will cause the workplace to become more English (which is very easy to happen) it will go against you. Even schools here have employed rules to stop foreign kids speaking English in class to other kids.

Despite the image not everyone can speak and understand English and employment law is strong here. At least this is my experience and that of people who have moved here over the past 2 or 3 years.

Also in 2022 you might need to take a new driving test to get a Swedish driving licence because as things stand we don't know what the regulation will be for Brits and Brexit. You definitely won't be able to work in the transport industry without a Swedish licence.

Good luck... You'll need it.


Thank you for your insight - really helpful info.

We're in Devon, just north of Exeter and it's essentially a constant traffic jam on roads that were outdated and unfit for purpose 100 years ago. Running a forestry business (moving machines and timber) is extremely difficult and the profusion of tourists and retirees resistant to any kind of rural work makes life generally unpleasant. The lack of the right to roam (which we were used to in Scotland) adds to that feeling of England being rather unfriendly.

Learning Swedish is top of my priority list once lockdown is finished. Having to entertain a 2 and 5 year old 24 hours a day leaves little energy for anything else at the moment. I have German citizenship, so hoping that I won't have all the driving licence issues.

My hope is that, whatever we end up doing for work, that we can carve out a niche for ourselves doing something that no one else is really doing. I thus far have three separate ideas, all of which could be done simultaneously, or to a greater extend individually. And also HGV driving on top of that.



Posted by: Grommet 19.May.2020, 04:48 AM

It sounds like you have a nice plan to move to Sweden. And the type of work you do definitely fits.

You might want to keep an eye on a few things though. Swedens' GDP is set to contract and unemployment is rising. Same as anywhere, but Sweden will neither be spared.

Last time I checked, unemployment for foreigners was more than 4-5 times that of locals. And that was before corona.

I think in two years time, it can possibly be even worse. Have a back-up plan. The grass is not always greener on the other side.

Taxes are also set to increase big time in Sweden, so favourable economics might not be there.

Whatever you do, make sure you have loads of cash in your pocket, you will need it one way or another in Sweden.

Posted by: skogsbo 19.May.2020, 06:00 AM

QUOTE (Grommet @ 19.May.2020, 04:48 AM) *
Taxes are also set to increase big time in Sweden,

Extremely unlikely. Where have you read that?

Posted by: yonisan 19.May.2020, 12:42 PM

I have lived in Sweden for 9 years and do not find the locals terrible - as others in these forums state. I do not speak Swedish fluently but I try my best and this is appreciated by my colleagues and people that I see in our apartment building on a daily basis. My issue is that they tend to drop in to English rather than speak Swedish.

I live in Stockholm and most of the people I interact with are very kind and helpful including the older generation in the apartment building. I have found if you challenge the cultural stereotypes then eventually the people you see every day will say hello in the stairwell or share the lift and have a conversation about life and currently corona.

Life is hardest for me here in the winter even though I lived on the Isle of Man for a few years where it could get very dark - I start to feel it from end of September onwards.

Other than that compared with life in the UK I find that living in Sweden has increased my quality of life more than I have time to type smile.gif

Posted by: Gimp 19.May.2020, 03:51 PM

Op,

If traffic jams are what you call chaos, and resistance towards personal freedoms, via consensus culture, Jante, lagom, set you off... then be wary of Sweden and navigating the never ending traffic jam of bureaucracy and stifling social codes.

Do you visit Sweden for long periods of time rather than shorter vacations. Vacationing tends to romanticize the idea of living there disregarding the realities.

What will your wife do?

Good luck. You have plenty of time to plan.

Posted by: TheExpatEagle 19.May.2020, 06:41 PM

QUOTE (JonathanR @ 18.May.2020, 10:58 PM) *
Thank you for your insight - really helpful info.

We're in Devon, just north of Exeter and it's essentially a constant traffic jam on roads that were outdated and unfit for purpose 100 years ago. Running a forestry business (moving machines and timber) is extremely difficult and the profusion of tourists and retirees resistant to any kind of rural work makes life generally unpleasant. The lack of the right to roam (which we were used to in Scotland) adds to that feeling of England being rather unfriendly.

Learning Swedish is top of my priority list once lockdown is finished. Having to entertain a 2 and 5 year old 24 hours a day leaves little energy for anything else at the moment. I have German citizenship, so hoping that I won't have all the driving licence issues.

My hope is that, whatever we end up doing for work, that we can carve out a niche for ourselves doing something that no one else is really doing. I thus far have three separate ideas, all of which could be done simultaneously, or to a greater extend individually. And also HGV driving on top of that.


But if you have a UK licence now then it won't matter what other nationality you have after 31st December you might not be able to simply exchange it for a Swedish one or a German one.

As I say, this is a maybe as none of us know right now.

Posted by: JonathanR 19.May.2020, 11:06 PM

QUOTE (Grommet @ 19.May.2020, 04:48 AM) *
It sounds like you have a nice plan to move to Sweden. And the type of work you do definitely fits.

You might want to keep an eye on a few things though. Swedens' GDP is set to contract and unemployment is rising. Same as anywhere, but Sweden will neither be spared.

Last time I checked, unemployment for foreigners was more than 4-5 times that of locals. And that was before corona.

I think in two years time, it can possibly be even worse. Have a back-up plan. The grass is not always greener on the other side.

Taxes are also set to increase big time in Sweden, so favourable economics might not be there.

Whatever you do, make sure you have loads of cash in your pocket, you will need it one way or another in Sweden.


The UK economy is pretty much screwed as well. It's not a good time to be in business anywhere, and I have a bit more confidence in forestry in Sweden than I do here in the UK. Fundamentally, if I'm able to do a good job for a competitive rate, I can't see there being too much of an issue finding work there.

QUOTE (yonisan @ 19.May.2020, 12:42 PM) *
I have lived in Sweden for 9 years and do not find the locals terrible - as others in these forums state. I do not speak Swedish fluently but I try my best and this is appreciated by my colleagues and people that I see in our apartment building on a daily basis. My issue is that they tend to drop in to English rather than speak Swedish.

I live in Stockholm and most of the people I interact with are very kind and helpful including the older generation in the apartment building. I have found if you challenge the cultural stereotypes then eventually the people you see every day will say hello in the stairwell or share the lift and have a conversation about life and currently corona.

Life is hardest for me here in the winter even though I lived on the Isle of Man for a few years where it could get very dark - I start to feel it from end of September onwards.

Other than that compared with life in the UK I find that living in Sweden has increased my quality of life more than I have time to type smile.gif


I'm glad that you've had such a positive experience. I feel that this would be my experience too. Oddly (for some), but I love winter. The UK has an extended, awful Autumn/wet season and it sucks the soul out of you. I know the last winter was warm for Sweden, but you don't know how lucky you have it. Give me minus 5, a bit of snow and I'm happy.


QUOTE (Gimp @ 19.May.2020, 03:51 PM) *
Op,

If traffic jams are what you call chaos, and resistance towards personal freedoms, via consensus culture, Jante, lagom, set you off... then be wary of Sweden and navigating the never ending traffic jam of bureaucracy and stifling social codes.

Do you visit Sweden for long periods of time rather than shorter vacations. Vacationing tends to romanticize the idea of living there disregarding the realities.

What will your wife do?

Good luck. You have plenty of time to plan.


I haven't spent more than a week at a time in Sweden yet. We intend to get there in Autumn to do a road trip to explore a bit more of the area we're looking in.

I am aware that there are cultural differences, but I'm pretty reserved generally, and the mentality there appeals.

My wife is an architect specialising in sustainable design. She's able to do consultancy work remotely.

Posted by: JonathanR 19.May.2020, 11:07 PM

QUOTE (TheExpatEagle @ 19.May.2020, 06:41 PM) *
But if you have a UK licence now then it won't matter what other nationality you have after 31st December you might not be able to simply exchange it for a Swedish one or a German one.

As I say, this is a maybe as none of us know right now.


Fair point. I hadn't considered that.

Posted by: Grommet 20.May.2020, 04:34 AM

QUOTE (JonathanR @ 20.May.2020, 12:06 AM) *
...Fundamentally, if I'm able to do a good job for a competitive rate, I can't see there being too much of an issue finding work there...

I understand that you would think that, but as you may learn, things don't work that way in Sweden.

In my experience, Swedes will hire a less qualified, known to be lazy Swede, than a more qualified, harder working, more enthusiastic foreigner.

Hard work is not really a thing in Sweden. And in some cases, if you are seen to work harder than the locals, you can really run into problems.

And one other thing to consider. Sweden already has people to do what you are planning to do, many of them. I would suggest to really take a look if more people are needed in the sector you are interested in. And really, to do what you want to do, you'd need to be up north. That's where most if not all the forestry operations are carried out.

Posted by: Grommet 20.May.2020, 04:37 AM

QUOTE (skogsbo @ 19.May.2020, 07:00 AM) *
Extremely unlikely. Where have you read that?

I read that in Aftonbladet. I didn't mean it is going to happen now, but it seems to be in the future plans.

Posted by: JonathanR 20.May.2020, 07:15 AM

QUOTE (Grommet @ 20.May.2020, 04:34 AM) *
I understand that you would think that, but as you may learn, things don't work that way in Sweden.

In my experience, Swedes will hire a less qualified, known to be lazy Swede, than a more qualified, harder working, more enthusiastic foreigner.

Hard work is not really a thing in Sweden. And in some cases, if you are seen to work harder than the locals, you can really run into problems.

And one other thing to consider. Sweden already has people to do what you are planning to do, many of them. I would suggest to really take a look if more people are needed in the sector you are interested in. And really, to do what you want to do, you'd need to be up north. That's where most if not all the forestry operations are carried out.


Southern and Central Sweden has a huge number of sawmills and wood pulp plants. The raw material won't be hauled far, and we'd probably locate ourselves close to mill as they tend to be in areas with a higher forest density.

My specialisation is lower impact forestry. So smaller machines, lighter footprint. Given that Sweden's winters are getting milder too, it precludes the use of heavy machinery for quite a lot of the year on quite a lot of sites, unless a muddy mess is acceptable. My approach is still economically viable, and for many forest owners, a lighter touch is worth a perhaps 10% increased cost of harvesting as it'll pay dividends in reduced ground/tree damage later on.

I understand your sentiment as regards the difficulties experienced by foreigners working in Sweden, but anecdotally, my experience of talking to people in my sector in Sweden, or those that have worked there, is different.

Posted by: JonathanR 20.May.2020, 07:31 AM

I also forgot to say that I'm 2.03m tall, with fair hair and blue eyes, so I'll fit right in anyway!! laugh.gif

Posted by: skogsbo 20.May.2020, 08:11 AM

QUOTE (Grommet @ 20.May.2020, 04:37 AM) *
...

Your posts are full of 20 year old myths and stories.

Employment; fit in and coast along was the sentiment 20 plus years ago. Now many companies owners and middle management are non native Swedes. It's a global market and business only survives if companies are lean and efficient. Rather than not work too hard, a new employee will be shunned if co workers think they aren't pulling their weight, or doing the best for their company.

Where do you work?

Just because folk here value family life and will make sure they finish on time, use all their holidays, don't presume they aren't cracking on a 730 every morning.

Forest. When you come here you'll discover sweden is a long country. 2000ish km. The north really is north and is the last place I'd buy forest. Dalarna which is roughly the middle of sweden would be my limit. But even there, yields are shrinking a long with the price you can sell for, but your machine costs and fuel are the same as in Southern sweden. I've just got the paperwork in for some spruce of ours, average diameter was 33cm and we got 610kr/m3 plus moms, the kind of figures folk in the north dream of.

Posted by: JonathanR 20.May.2020, 08:28 AM

QUOTE (skogsbo @ 20.May.2020, 08:11 AM) *
Forest. When you come here you'll discover sweden is a long country. 2000ish km. The north really is north and is the last place I'd buy forest. Dalarna which is roughly the middle of sweden would be my limit. But even there, yields are shrinking a long with the price you can sell for, but your machine costs and fuel are the same as in Southern sweden. I've just got the paperwork in for some spruce of ours, average diameter was 33cm and we got 610kr/m3 plus moms, the kind of figures folk in the north dream of.


That's about our limit for going North too. G?vle and no further really.

Is that price the standing price or roadside? If roadside, that' a bit better than I'd expected, if standing, bloody hell!

I'm working on the basis of having a very small machine, averaging 30 cubic metres to roadside a day on a harvesting rate of about 200-230SEK a cube. I think that's entirely feasible and from what I have been told, reasonable for first thinning, especially considering the low ground/tree damage.

Posted by: Grommet 20.May.2020, 09:07 AM

OP, have a look at Swedish styled nepotism. Alive and well, as many Swedes (have and) will attest to.

QUOTE (skogsbo @ 20.May.2020, 09:11 AM) *
Just because folk here value family life and will make sure they finish on time, use all their holidays, don't presume they aren't cracking on a 730 every morning.

So someone who gets things going at 07:30 every morning, can't be incompetent, lazy or got the job from "uncle-politics"?

And likewise, don't presume everything is so black and white. But thanks for your "what-about-this/that" approach; very informative.

Your posts, after looking at them going way back, are hopelessly one-sided and rose-tinted. OP, maybe also check out the Swedish "denial-culture". It holds special sway in general in Sweden.

If you're going to move there, you should really do your homework on more than just the job side of things.

Posted by: skogsbo 20.May.2020, 11:11 AM

QUOTE (JonathanR @ 20.May.2020, 08:28 AM) *
That's about our limit for going North too. G?vle and no further really.

Is that price the standing price or roadside? If roadside, that' a bit better than I'd expected, if standing, bloody hell!

I'm working on the basis of having a very small machine, averaging 30 cubic metres to roadside a day on a harvesting rate of about 200-230SEK a cube. I think that's entirely feasible and from what I have been told, reasonable for first thinning, especially considering the low ground/tree damage.

That's what the timber companies pay for roadside.

Rough prices now.
Dead and rotten 220kr
Pulp, alive, limited rot 320kr
Special pulp (beetle damage only) upto 400
12cm+ diameter 400kr (called Klein in Swedish)
18cm+ diameter 500-650kr depending on length and diameter.

Prices have been higher, but will no doubt go lower now. Bonus is fuel is 2kr a litre cheaper though. So it's not all bad.

I'll get back to you on your thinning request.. I was trying to get a couple of pics of some very recent first thinning. Picture paints a thousand words and all that.

Posted by: skogsbo 20.May.2020, 11:16 AM

QUOTE (Grommet @ 20.May.2020, 09:07 AM) *
OP, have a look at Swedish styled nepotism. Alive and well, as many Swedes (have and) will attest to.


So someone who gets things going at 07:30 every morning, can't be incompetent, lazy or got the job from "uncle-politics"?

And likewise, don't presume everything is so black and white. But thanks for your "what-about-this/that" approach; very informative.

Your posts, after looking at them going way back, are hopelessly one-sided and rose-tinted. OP, maybe also check out the Swedish "denial-culture". It holds special sway in general in Sweden.

If you're going to move there, you should really do your homework on more than just the job side of things.

I understand your anti sweden, you've probably never lived or worked here and you just hate the idea of other people making a success of life in sweden. You prefer to spend your day in negative thoughts, trying to drag everyone down to your level. Your call.

Yeah I'm positive. I make life happen, if peopke come to sweden with a can do attitude, flexible and prepared to graft for the first years then anything is possible. It's incredibly easy to set up a business here.

There are those who don't plan. Don't research. Expect sweden and it's authorities to bend over backwards for them, they won't. But if you do your share of the work then SV MV etc will help you and be problem free.

And don't forget grommet, no one enjoys the company of miserable pessimists.

Posted by: yonisan 20.May.2020, 12:23 PM

QUOTE (Grommet @ 20.May.2020, 10:07 AM) *
OP, have a look at Swedish styled nepotism. Alive and well, as many Swedes (have and) will attest to.


So someone who gets things going at 07:30 every morning, can't be incompetent, lazy or got the job from "uncle-politics"?

And likewise, don't presume everything is so black and white. But thanks for your "what-about-this/that" approach; very informative.

Your posts, after looking at them going way back, are hopelessly one-sided and rose-tinted. OP, maybe also check out the Swedish "denial-culture". It holds special sway in general in Sweden.

If you're going to move there, you should really do your homework on more than just the job side of things.


This is just bullshit as I posted earlier my swedish is not perfect and I have had no issues with making an excellent life here for myself. The first company I worked for were a little uneasy about my lack of language skills however by the time I moved they were unhappy - they had helped me with my Swedish and I had helped them be more confident in English - really necessary when the language of the company (top 500) is English.

I then moved to run a services department of which just under half are not native with varying degrees of Swedish from excellent to understands but doesn't speak - everyone helps each other, I have people who are not comfortable speaking English and I have people who are not comfortable speaking Swedish - there is no division.

As for not wanting to work - again rubbish. Most of my team start earlier rather than later - they show up to the office from 0630 onwards (normal hours are 0800 to 1630) - I spend a lot of my time trying to get my teams to take their flextime back and most employees write some off at the end of each year.

Nepotism is also not what you can read about either any more - international companies really want the best person for the job these days, they do not care if you are native born or not (as long as you qualify for a work permit.

I do not know whether yeou have lived in Sweden or if you are just a troll - i am leaning towards troll.

Posted by: Gimp 20.May.2020, 04:11 PM


Posted by: Gimp 20.May.2020, 04:15 PM


Posted by: skogsbo 20.May.2020, 04:38 PM


Posted by: JonathanR 20.May.2020, 04:45 PM

The negativity from some in this thread is a little disappointing.

We've got our eyes wide open and know that like anywhere, Sweden has it's downsides.

Climate (as long as you stay away from the West Coast) is much better. I like the cold and I like summer, albeit one that isn't too long. The rainfall for Central Sweden going east is equivalent to East Anglia. It also peaks in summer, which I'm fine with as winter rain is what knickers work for me. Summers are a touch warmer than here, and winters are much colder. Perfect.

I was only making a joke at the accident of my appearance as regards to the social conformity that some have alluded to in this thread. My appearance is irrelevant to moving to Sweden.

We want to live rurally, work rurally, and fully integrate into society. I speak English and fluent German, which gives me a good headstart (I am told), and we have family there and my mum is fluent in Swedish and happy to come stay for extended periods to bring us up to speed.

My work is about the best suited that there is to living in Sweden given the profusion of forest, so I'm optimistic biggrin.gif


Posted by: skogsbo 20.May.2020, 04:54 PM

I wouldn't worry the forum attracts quite a few who have never been to or worked in sweden, who just want to troll. Equally there are those where it hasn't worked, but they don't move on in life.

A positive happy outlook, combined with research will over come many obstacles that moving country will put in your way. On a positive note you'll find a dozen regular moaners here, but in the last 2 years 7000 Brits applied for Swedish passports before Brexit.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 20.May.2020, 05:35 PM

Sadly this forum has always been a place for people to "potty mouth" Sweden and its peoples...

Constructive and enlightening posts are here but you have to go through a lot of trash to find their value...

So be it...

Posted by: TheExpatEagle 20.May.2020, 07:17 PM

I've lived in Sweden for almost 20 years in Stockholm and Sk?ne. I like living here and I like the Swedes but that doesn't blinker me to the difficulties in living here for Brits, especially ones moving here now.

I have worked in programs for Arbetsf?rmedlingen which mad mostly foreigners in as well as Swedes and the situation Grommet has described is, in my experience, fairly accurate. This is based on 2 of the 3 largest cities in Sweden.

The OP will either succeed here or not and we can only share our experiences. In my case it is also based on the 400 or 500 deltagare I had as well during my years working in that program.

There will be problems not foreseen. For example, the OP didn't think it would be a problem to swap his driving licence after Brexit goes through because he has German citizenship. It might not be a problem depending on the final deal but this kind of oversight or bad advice given to him can be the difference between a good start and a bad one.

For example, health care. When the OP moves here he will not be insured. Even under the current rules he would not be covered because once people move here they need to pay for health care either through tax or by some other way because the EU medical card does not cover people once they move to that country.

So after December 31st it could mean the OP moves here and has no medical insurance. I am happy to be corrected of course but at the time of writing who knows what the situation will be but I can't imagine it will be better than it is now.

In any case this is all by the by because in 2022 he will need a visa to move to Sweden in order to work or start a business so it may not even happen. Even today people can't just move to Sweden, they need a job within 3 months and they can't just move and put their kids in schools.

I can't speak for Grommet but for me I would rather paint a realistic picture for someone moving here than one of all sunshine and positivity because life is difficult here for a native English speaker, more so in the middle of rural Sweden.

Either way it doesn't affect me but if I can say something to help someone then I will because as I see things it won't be a simple to move here in 2022 from the UK as some people in this thread and in other threads think it will be.

I genuinely wish the OP luck but I suspect there will be more humps in the road than any of us can predict right now because the final deal to leave the EU has not been finalised but we know what the UK is doing to EU nationals regarding work permits so we can at least think that will be the same going in the opposite direction.

As a final thought, I know some people who moved to Sweden when their kids were around 5 or 6 years old and they have been in a year behind other kids because their Swedish wasn't the same standard. So this summer the kids are graduating as 19 year olds.

Maybe the OP might want his kinds to go to an international or English school to help and that might affect where he moves to?

From my experience working in schools I would say the UK is behind kids here of the same age and that is not taking language into account. Swedish kids tend to focus on fewer subjects than the equivalent kids in the UK.

Sorry this is a little here and there but I have had some distractions while writing it. :-/

Posted by: skogsbo 20.May.2020, 07:46 PM

The OP could use German citizenship to move here without any problems. His partner can work virtually so they'll have immediate income and potentially avoid the personal number issue. Kids, they have two years to start teaching Swedish. Driving licence will of course depend on any Brexit reciprocal rights deal, can resolve that until after December.

Most problems are solvable with planning and preparation!

Posted by: Mrs Robinsson 20.May.2020, 08:07 PM

Additional considerations... will Sweden be a better place in 10, 20, 30 years?

Will healthcare and education improve, these are crucial - you being a family man. These 2 areas are currently rated on the low end of western Europe. Will they improve?

What about immigration and asylum seekers and their grip on the society and culture in certain areas? I don't see a joyous integration anytime soon.

What about the worsening crime rate, rape rate, murder rate, etc. I don't see this improving especially with the morale of police evaporating.

This is why I left and will never go back (to live). Of course when I lived there things were much better than now.

Posted by: JonathanR 20.May.2020, 09:48 PM


Posted by: Mrs Robinsson 21.May.2020, 12:46 AM

Good luck, I feel your responses and approach are considerably preferable to the majority of people, who move there cluelessly.

In fact, your approach and planning is one of the best I've seen on these forums.

It does help immensely to have your brother's network and support. Keep us in the loop.

My actual time in Sweden itself was not that bad, it came down to the contemplation of planning a long term future with a family and I got the hell out.


Posted by: Gimp 21.May.2020, 05:55 AM

QUOTE (skogsbo @ 20.May.2020, 04:38 PM) *
Yeah. Lots of eu migrant workers come expecting the red carpet, job assistance, benefits, accommodation etc.. they don't get anything, so unsurprisingly only those with the right qualifications and skills to suit the jobs market will get work. Just like any other country.

I presume you are in sweden so you'll know unemployment is many times lower than any Mediterranean nation? Don't let this stop you bashing sweden though!


Wow, defensive are we? And yes there are many issues around the world... and Sweden is not free of them. I figured this forum would be specifically about Sweden. Pardon moi rolleyes.gif

What I say has been proven over and over. And yes there is a disparity of natives and non natives in probably all countries... and in Sweden it is a very very high disparity, and rate. This is not Sweden bashing. This is not calling it like I see it. This is the truth. The op is in for a hard time unless they are really going to fill a need.

Who knows, maybe his wife, who works remotely, is the bread winner so being profitable is not a necessity?

There are also many qualified non natives who are unemployed, underemployed etc. That is also the truth.

The expat eagle says it very well below.
QUOTE (TheExpatEagle @ 20.May.2020, 07:17 PM) *
I've lived in Sweden for almost 20 years in Stockholm and Sk?ne. I like living here and I like the Swedes but that doesn't blinker me to the difficulties in living here for Brits, especially ones moving here now.

I have worked in programs for Arbetsf?rmedlingen which mad mostly foreigners in as well as Swedes and the situation Grommet has described is, in my experience, fairly accurate. This is based on 2 of the 3 largest cities in Sweden.

The OP will either succeed here or not and we can only share our experiences. In my case it is also based on the 400 or 500 deltagare I had as well during my years working in that program.

There will be problems not foreseen. For example, the OP didn't think it would be a problem to swap his driving licence after Brexit goes through because he has German citizenship. It might not be a problem depending on the final deal but this kind of oversight or bad advice given to him can be the difference between a good start and a bad one.

For example, health care. When the OP moves here he will not be insured. Even under the current rules he would not be covered because once people move here they need to pay for health care either through tax or by some other way because the EU medical card does not cover people once they move to that country.

So after December 31st it could mean the OP moves here and has no medical insurance. I am happy to be corrected of course but at the time of writing who knows what the situation will be but I can't imagine it will be better than it is now.

In any case this is all by the by because in 2022 he will need a visa to move to Sweden in order to work or start a business so it may not even happen. Even today people can't just move to Sweden, they need a job within 3 months and they can't just move and put their kids in schools.

I can't speak for Grommet but for me I would rather paint a realistic picture for someone moving here than one of all sunshine and positivity because life is difficult here for a native English speaker, more so in the middle of rural Sweden.

Either way it doesn't affect me but if I can say something to help someone then I will because as I see things it won't be a simple to move here in 2022 from the UK as some people in this thread and in other threads think it will be.

I genuinely wish the OP luck but I suspect there will be more humps in the road than any of us can predict right now because the final deal to leave the EU has not been finalised but we know what the UK is doing to EU nationals regarding work permits so we can at least think that will be the same going in the opposite direction.

As a final thought, I know some people who moved to Sweden when their kids were around 5 or 6 years old and they have been in a year behind other kids because their Swedish wasn't the same standard. So this summer the kids are graduating as 19 year olds.

Maybe the OP might want his kinds to go to an international or English school to help and that might affect where he moves to?

From my experience working in schools I would say the UK is behind kids here of the same age and that is not taking language into account. Swedish kids tend to focus on fewer subjects than the equivalent kids in the UK.

Sorry this is a little here and there but I have had some distractions while writing it. :-/


Very well put. It?s not all rainbows and it?s not an escape.

Posted by: Grommet 21.May.2020, 05:57 AM

QUOTE (skogsbo @ 20.May.2020, 05:54 PM) *
I wouldn't worry the forum attracts quite a few who have never been to or worked in sweden, who just want to troll. Equally there are those where it hasn't worked, but they don't move on in life.

This forum also seems to have attracted a few whom have appointed themselves as cheer leaders for Sweden. They simply dismiss everything that is less than flattering. And then in the typical Swedish style, they discriminate against any perceived dissent, different experiences or different opinions, and harshly label people without knowing anything about them.

They try to bully contributors here because they have a different opinion. They kill any debate, any adult discussion because somehow they take any difference in opinion as a personal attack. That is why hyper-sensitive Skogsbo attacks when he finds something disagreeable. Actually, OP, you can expect such behaviour from the culture if you move to Sweden, from the locals. But when they attack, you don't even know it. Kind of like a high-school clique culture in some ways. Very immature, and quite nasty.

Like Sweden in general, this forum is a place where you are forced to agree (much like with, for example, the current corona handling) even when you can see things are going tits up. And as Gamla has already admitted, if you indicate something he doesn't like, he will try to delete you.

OP, I am a realist, not a pessimist. I wish you all the best in your adventure. Yes there are good things in Sweden, for sure. But so it is anywhere else as well, and Sweden has created problems for itself that are quite unique due to an extreme social ideaology that is equally unique.

Posted by: skogsbo 21.May.2020, 06:10 AM

QUOTE (Grommet @ 21.May.2020, 05:57 AM) *
This forum also seems to have attracted a few whom have appointed themselves as cheer leaders for Sweden. They simply dismiss everything that is less than flattering. And then in the typical Swedish style, they discriminate against any perceived dissent, different experiences or different opinions, and harshly label people without knowing anything about them.

They try to bully contributors here because they have a different opinion. They kill any debate, any adult discussion because somehow they take any difference in opinion as a personal attack. That is why hyper-sensitive Skogsbo attacks when he finds something disagreeable. Actually, OP, you can expect such behaviour from the culture if you move to Sweden, from the locals. But when they attack, you don't even know it. Kind of like a high-school clique culture in some ways. Very immature, and quite nasty.

Like Sweden in general, this forum is a place where you are forced to agree (much like with, for example, the current corona handling) even when you can see things are going tits up. And as Gamla has already admitted, if you indicate something he doesn't like, he will try to delete you.

OP, I am a realist, not a pessimist. I wish you all the best in your adventure. Yes there are good things in Sweden, for sure. But so it is anywhere else as well, and Sweden has created problems for itself that are quite unique due to an extreme social ideaology that is equally unique.

Debate the topic then.. share your experiences of sweden? What went wrong for you? What went right? Offer advice?

No country is perfect, but different countries suit different people. It's finding one that suit you personally which makes for a happy life, any problems which you then encounter become way less significant.

Posted by: skogsbo 21.May.2020, 06:18 AM


Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 21.May.2020, 06:44 AM

I think the biggest problem that we encounter here is culture shock...People leave a country and culture and expect the culture to come with them and have it applicable to life in Sweden/elsewhere...that does not work...

You cannot judge a potato using rules that only apply to a tomato...naturaly they are quite different and so are the cultural aspects of people...you cannot judge a Swede by rules that are different in his/her society than what you are used to...I won't say when in Rome, etc...but I will say try to understand the people first before your offer of constructive critising of them for being...SWEDISH...

If you leave your culture behind...you won't be comfortable practicing it in other places, let alone Sweden...

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 21.May.2020, 06:49 AM

"And as Gamla has already admitted, if you indicate something he doesn't like, he will try to delete you."

Not quite right, but I thank you for the kindness of your thoughts...

Posted by: skogsbo 21.May.2020, 06:49 AM

QUOTE (JonathanR @ 20.May.2020, 09:48 PM) *
I think a lot of it comes down to what you can make of it. With having kids, we'll meet people through schools and clubs and we'll get on OK. We're gregarious to a point, but equally happyy in our own company. Walking the dog in the forest and wild swimming is my idea of bliss and it's not something we can do at all in Southern England.

Where ever you end up rurally go to events at the local bygdeg?rden (village hall). They'll have events at all the key times in the calendar, no invite or membership needed, plus decent coffee and cake. Many rurally have an aging population and you'll help lower the average, but they often need young blood for maintaining the building etc.

The oldies won't speak much English at all so it's good training too. It's also a way to network for forest work as many of them will be too old to do it themselves. The same with local sports clubs etc. They often look for helpers and small scale sponsors (few hundred quid of kids team etc). If you get your face and name seen around, earn a reputation for being cleaning and neat in the forest you'll pick up work. No one likes the big operator that just literally plough in and don't respect the land or number old ruins in the forest (if which there are 1000s).

Two big elements here are fire risk/ damage and bark boring spruce beetle. Get up to speed on these and it shows you have an understand of the issues. There is also a move away from plantation forestry to mixed aged forest, selective harvesting etc.


Posted by: Gimp 21.May.2020, 05:29 PM


Posted by: TheExpatEagle 21.May.2020, 07:02 PM


Posted by: JonathanR 22.May.2020, 07:46 AM


Posted by: skogsbo 22.May.2020, 08:30 AM

I think that's the point many miss, folk need to be honest or know themselves, what they like dislike and like etc.. Yesterday was a red day (Swedish bank holiday) so everyone was off. We went up the forest fishing, home for bbq and ate the catch. Saw no one the whole time, heaven. It was the birthday request of the 13yr old which was postponed a week due to rubbish weather. Kids off school today as well and 11 year old has taken the dog for his 2nd walk of the day around the forest. Despite living in the sticks 4g and fibre is excellent, so you can be as interactive with the modern world as much as required.

It's just a question of knowing what you want. If someone is a city slicker they are going to be very disappointed with 99% of sweden, before you even consider the hassles of moving house, which even moving in the same country is a chore.

*boring old people in rural areas... they often tend to be a lot more interesting than young folk living in cities.

I've lived in South Wales near the valleys, cities of Glasgow and Edinburgh, before we settled for quite a while in Yorkshire dales. People who talk about crime, deprecation etc. in Sweden have certainly never lived in the less desirable areas of Glasgow or other areas of the UK.

I also sense many people aren't moving to sweden because it draws them, but rather they are running away from where they dislike.

Posted by: JonathanR 22.May.2020, 10:57 AM

QUOTE (skogsbo @ 22.May.2020, 08:30 AM) *
I think that's the point many miss, folk need to be honest or know themselves, what they like dislike and like etc.. Yesterday was a red day (Swedish bank holiday) so everyone was off. We went up the forest fishing, home for bbq and ate the catch. Saw no one the whole time, heaven. It was the birthday request of the 13yr old which was postponed a week due to rubbish weather. Kids off school today as well and 11 year old has taken the dog for his 2nd walk of the day around the forest. Despite living in the sticks 4g and fibre is excellent, so you can be as interactive with the modern world as much as required.

It's just a question of knowing what you want. If someone is a city slicker they are going to be very disappointed with 99% of sweden, before you even consider the hassles of moving house, which even moving in the same country is a chore.

*boring old people in rural areas... they often tend to be a lot more interesting than young folk living in cities.

I've lived in South Wales near the valleys, cities of Glasgow and Edinburgh, before we settled for quite a while in Yorkshire dales. People who talk about crime, deprecation etc. in Sweden have certainly never lived in the less desirable areas of Glasgow or other areas of the UK.

I also sense many people aren't moving to sweden because it draws them, but rather they are running away from where they dislike.


We were 13 years in Scotland, starting in Edinburgh and gradually moving slightly west ending up between Linlithgow and Queensferry. With work, I spent far too much time in West Lothian, in places like Livingston, Bathgate and Broxburn. Total, complete shitholes, honestly. There is little that could compare to that in Sweden, trust me.

Skogsbo, it sounds like you have the kind of life we're aspiring to there. As you say, it won't be for everyone but it fits well for many and we're in that group.

Posted by: skogsbo 22.May.2020, 11:05 AM

Lived in 'new' gorbals in one of the new builds that replaced the first flats that were pulled down. Then moved to the top of Vicky rd, shawlands ish. Edinburgh was Newhaven.. right by the little harbour. Ace location, looking out to sea, but not far from Leith which was still very run down at the time.

Posted by: JonathanR 22.May.2020, 11:48 AM

QUOTE (skogsbo @ 22.May.2020, 11:05 AM) *
Lived in 'new' gorbals in one of the new builds that replaced the first flats that were pulled down. Then moved to the top of Vicky rd, shawlands ish. Edinburgh was Newhaven.. right by the little harbour. Ace location, looking out to sea, but not far from Leith which was still very run down at the time.


I miss the right to roam that we had in Scotland, but not much else. The weather is generally awful and the Scots (who are probably some of the most patriotic people in the world) don't treat their country with respect. Litter everywhere, awful architecture and a general feeling of greyness.

The seafront in Edinburgh is getting better now, but Leith is still fairly rough. It's on it's way to gentrification, but it's a long way off!

Posted by: Gimp 22.May.2020, 02:55 PM


Posted by: Gimp 22.May.2020, 03:04 PM


Posted by: TheExpatEagle 22.May.2020, 06:51 PM

Sweden is becoming more like the UK when it comes to petty crime. Cars set on fire, places vandalised, old people not being treated with respect by the youth and so on. The roads here, in my opinion, are in a worse state than in the UK but that is understandable. Maybe you just lived in the wrong part of England?

The Tories in Sweden want to deregulate the housing sector which will put rents up and allow people to buy to rent like in the UK.

I think there is a very good chance you are going to get very disappointed by what you find when/if you move here.

I guess you have stopped interacting with me because I voted for Brexit? Haha.

Posted by: JonathanR 22.May.2020, 07:05 PM


Posted by: JonathanR 22.May.2020, 07:08 PM

QUOTE (TheExpatEagle @ 22.May.2020, 06:51 PM) *
Sweden is becoming more like the UK when it comes to petty crime. Cars set on fire, places vandalised, old people not being treated with respect by the youth and so on. The roads here, in my opinion, are in a worse state than in the UK but that is understandable. Maybe you just lived in the wrong part of England?

The Tories in Sweden want to deregulate the housing sector which will put rents up and allow people to buy to rent like in the UK.

I think there is a very good chance you are going to get very disappointed by what you find when/if you move here.

I guess you have stopped interacting with me because I voted for Brexit? Haha.


Haha! No intentional lack of interaction, though I can't say that I support your Brexit ideals!

I am European, and Brexit is anathema to me. I don't think Britain has much to be proud of in recent decades, and still very much believes it's the great global nation that it hasn't been since WW2.

Anyway, apologies if you thought I was ignoring you biggrin.gif

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 22.May.2020, 07:13 PM

A lot of information and opinions...in the end it all boils down to:

To each his own...said the man as he kissed the horse laugh.gif

Posted by: Swegeddon 22.May.2020, 07:27 PM

QUOTE (JonathanR @ 22.May.2020, 07:05 PM) *
The countryside around where we used to live in Scotland was OK, but almost all of the conurbations were dumps. The whole area is ex (paraffin) mining and post-industrial. The deprivation is terrible. There are literally no good schools to send kids to. Queensferry (iconic place in many respects with the three bridges) is 1/3 council estate, 1/3 shitty new housing and the rest a mixture of tourist tat shops and pubs.

There are so many differences between here in Devon and Sweden:

Houses: A fraction of the price in Sweden. Unaffordable here.
Right to roam: Exists in Sweden. Doesn't exist here. Everything is private.
Schools: Mediocre to good here. Minimal chance of reaching 16 bilingual. Zero chance trilingual. Funding is constantly being cut and with excessive house building, they are becoming over-subscribed.
Work: 8% forest cover in Devon. 75% forest cover in Sweden. What's more, working in young conifer stands is exactly what I want to do, and there aren't very many here.
Wild swimming and the outdoors: There are virtually no lakes here, and you can't move for them in Sweden.
Climate: It rains continuously through winter here. In fact, we averaged 200mm a month for 6.5 months from Sept 19 to March 20. It now hasn't rained for 2.5 months, which is creating its own issues. We get virtually no snow, frost or winter weather, and summers are overlong. The Swedish climate is for us preferable.
Family: We haven't discussed it with the kids, other than bringing it up hypothetically with my 5-year-old. My younger daughter is 2. My older daughter is keen on the idea. My wife also, but we still have to consider our extended family.

In all likelihood, we'd have visitors from the UK, France and Germany regularly throughout the year. We're lucky to have a wide circle of friends, who are already geographically dispersed. I don't think we'd feel socially isolated at all.


Why don't you get a better job?
I have never met a lorry driver who is literate like you.
Go to college and get a qualification and Sweden will welcome you with open arms.

Posted by: JonathanR 22.May.2020, 07:59 PM


Posted by: Swegeddon 22.May.2020, 08:16 PM


Posted by: JonathanR 22.May.2020, 08:34 PM


Posted by: Swegeddon 22.May.2020, 08:46 PM


Posted by: skogsbo 22.May.2020, 09:58 PM

QUOTE (TheExpatEagle @ 22.May.2020, 06:51 PM) *
Sweden is becoming more like the UK when it comes to petty crime. Cars set on fire, places vandalised, old people not being treated with respect by the youth and so on. The roads here, in my opinion, are in a worse state than in the UK but that is understandable. Maybe you just lived in the wrong part of England?

The Tories in Sweden want to deregulate the housing sector which will put rents up and allow people to buy to rent like in the UK.

I think there is a very good chance you are going to get very disappointed by what you find when/if you move here.

I guess you have stopped interacting with me because I voted for Brexit? Haha.

The roads are way worse in the UK. I do a fair bit of road biking and I know where the holes are here, because there are so few to remember. The uk is dreadful. The only exception is a single stretch in north Yorkshire where we moved from, because it was resurfaced for the opening stage of the tour 're France.
They put small stone and sand on in winter, it's even brushed off the road in spring!

Posted by: JonathanR 22.May.2020, 10:30 PM

QUOTE (skogsbo @ 22.May.2020, 09:58 PM) *
The roads are way worse in the UK. I do a fair bit of road biking and I know where the holes are here, because there are so few to remember. The uk is dreadful. The only exception is a single stretch in north Yorkshire where we moved from, because it was resurfaced for the opening stage of the tour 're France.
They put small stone and sand on in winter, it's even brushed off the road in spring!


The only roads I've found that come close to UK roads are in Belgium.

I'm quite interested in cars generally, so read/watch a lot of reviews. They never give a verdict on a car's ride and handling just off the preliminary test drives in Europe. It's always stipulated that "we'll have to see how it fairs on UK roads" before giving their final opinion.

Please refer to my earlier comment about the UK spending it's money servicing mortgages rather than funding infrastructure repairs by way of taxes.


Posted by: Gimp 23.May.2020, 01:32 AM


Posted by: Grommet 23.May.2020, 09:23 AM

Just a comment about swimming in Swedish lakes.

On a hot summer, I would guess the temperature of the water doesn't get much above 14-16C. And after weeks of cloud (not impossible in Sweden), I would guess that drops a few degrees yet. And for most of the year, more likely between 4-10C (for any open water). All really lovely with a good wind too.

Now don't get me wrong, with high humidity and sweltering heat, say 30-35C, 16C water is refreshing, really refreshing. But Sweden doesn't typically get so hot, and 25C seems to trigger talk of "heat-wave". I always found that odd, since for me, 27 - 28 C is perfect.

So, if you don't mind speaking in soprano for 20 minutes while you dry off and warm up, waiting for your nards to drop back down, you'll do just fine!

Anyway, while colder is better for the heart and circulation, you might want to stick to lakes that have a sauna quite handy (not that Swedes know how to use one).

Water in Swedish lakes are generally too cold for me personally.

Posted by: skogsbo 23.May.2020, 09:43 AM

QUOTE (Grommet @ 23.May.2020, 09:23 AM) *
Just a comment about swimming in Swedish lakes.

On a hot summer, I would guess the temperature of the water doesn't get much above 14-16C. And after weeks of cloud (not impossible in Sweden), I would guess that drops a few degrees yet. And for most of the year, more likely between 4-10C (for any open water). All really lovely with a good wind too.

Now don't get me wrong, with high humidity and sweltering heat, say 30-35C, 16C water is refreshing, really refreshing. But Sweden doesn't typically get so hot, and 25C seems to trigger talk of "heat-wave". I always found that odd, since for me, 27 - 28 C is perfect.

So, if you don't mind speaking in soprano for 20 minutes while you dry off and warm up, waiting for your nards to drop back down, you'll do just fine!

Anyway, while colder is better for the heart and circulation, you might want to stick to lakes that have a sauna quite handy (not that Swedes know how to use one).

Water in Swedish lakes are generally too cold for me personally.

This is where you show up your lack of Swedish knowledge.

Every lake, near every town will have a swimming area, Jetty, raft, bbq area etc.. most rural lakes have something smaller that only the locals will know of.

Temps, just now it's about 10-15 depending on the lake. They vary according to depth, aspect and what feeds them. I was in a lake near us that's normally not so warm in the first week of May and even then it's was 11 or 12c.

Summer water temps; Around 20c is normal. Low 20s once air temps are near 30. Heat wave is 30 plus here. Two summer's ago it was in the 30s(air) consistently for weeks and even the cold lakes were 28c.

Posted by: Grommet 23.May.2020, 10:42 AM

QUOTE (skogsbo @ 23.May.2020, 10:43 AM) *
This is where you show up your lack of Swedish knowledge.

According to whom? You?

Hilarious.

I wasn't talking about "towns", obviously. The OP stated "wild" and that's what I was talking about. You know, that lake you find out on a trail walk, out in the forest?

And you say you live in Sweden. I'm guessing you live in Gamla's basement, likely as his gimp (sorry Gimp!).

As for your other temperature quotes, possibly in the past couple summers, but far from typical.

You said before let's debate, but I don't really know why you would make the offer, since you already know-it-all.

And you don't leave much room for engaging discussion because of the way you add things up, such as if someone moves to Sweden and has had problems, it is because Sweden didn't roll out the red-carpet for them. Really nothing to reply to such utter rubbish.

Where do you come up with such complete garbage?

But hey, I'm sure you look quite pretty with your pom-poms. Gimme an "S", "W" ... "Gooooooo SWEDEN!"...you know the drill, tool.

Posted by: JonathanR 23.May.2020, 11:08 AM

I'm a numbers nerd and I love wild swimming. I've swum extensively every time I've been in Sweden, and I bring a thermometer.

Blue skies are the key thing for warm water. Uninterrupted solar gain, as well as picking your spots. If it's warm and sunny with a gentle south-westerly, the north-eastern bays will be warmest, and sometimes very much warmer.

Either way, unless it's a cold day in July or August, in Central or Southern Sweden the water will average 20c, with temperatures up to 25c regularly in the aforementioned accumulation bays for warmer, wind-driven water.

I used to do a lot of wild swimming in Scotland (where summers are 4-7c colder than central Sweden) and on cold summers, water would average 15c. Heatwaves would see it sustain over 20c for weeks, and up to 23.7c (highest I ever recorded, Threipmuir Reservoir, Edinburgh). I've measured up to 25c in England.

If I had immediate access to a lake, I'd swim all year round, unless I couldn't break the ice. I've swum across meltwater lakes 800m asl in the Scottish Highlands and enjoy it greatly biggrin.gif


Posted by: Grommet 23.May.2020, 11:13 AM

OP, you can see for yourself.

https://gonaturetrip.com/destination/swim-swedish-lake/

Granted, a connection in Finland has mentioned 2 summers ago, these 28C lake temps. But it was a abnormally hot summer that one; I wouldn't bet on it that that will happen every year.

Also found this: http://info1.ma.slu.se/climate/7Temp.html 20 year old data, but other than the odd super hot summer (it actually looks like this one is set to do that again) I don't think things, on average, change so much.

At the same time, with climate change, things could change to warmer lake temps, but even so, I don't expect the outliers to change by much.

Posted by: skogsbo 23.May.2020, 11:14 AM

QUOTE (Grommet @ 23.May.2020, 10:42 AM) *
According to whom? You?

Hilarious.

I wasn't talking about "towns", obviously. The OP stated "wild" and that's what I was talking about. You know, that lake you find out on a trail walk, out in the forest?

And you say you live in Sweden. I'm guessing you live in Gamla's basement, likely as his gimp (sorry Gimp!).

As for your other temperature quotes, possibly in the past couple summers, but far from typical.

You said before let's debate, but I don't really know why you would make the offer, since you already know-it-all.

And you don't leave much room for engaging discussion because of the way you add things up, such as if someone moves to Sweden and has had problems, it is because Sweden didn't roll out the red-carpet for them. Really nothing to reply to such utter rubbish.

Where do you come up with such complete garbage?

But hey, I'm sure you look quite pretty with your pom-poms. Gimme an "S", "W" ... "Gooooooo SWEDEN!"...you know the drill, tool.

I live 40km from the nearest city or large town... 15km from anything bigger than a two house hamlet. So I'm talking about wild lakes. Between us and the nearest town there are 3 or 4 good swim spots in lakes..everyone is loosely maintained by the people living around there, they might have several hundred metres between houses but share swim spots, maintain jetty, cut the grass on little banks, build a seat etc. The lake we fished in on Thursday, on our land, is 3km from any road, these are the kind of makes we are talking about. On a warm summer kids literally lake swim everyday of their school holidays... add in the fact we had property here before we move and the eldest is now 13, that must add up to several hundred wild lskd swimming days. Even when I was up at the ski tunnel at torsby training in October we had a brief lake dip then by the sauna, a fresh 8c... so yes I've a little experience of rural swimming.

It's certainly a lot warmer here than the tarns, llyns and lochs of the UK!!

Posted by: skogsbo 23.May.2020, 11:45 AM

QUOTE (Grommet @ 23.May.2020, 11:13 AM) *
OP, you can see for yourself.

https://gonaturetrip.com/destination/swim-swedish-lake/

Granted, a connection in Finland has mentioned 2 summers ago, these 28C lake temps. But it was a abnormally hot summer that one; I wouldn't bet on it that that will happen every year.

Also found this: http://info1.ma.slu.se/climate/7Temp.html 20 year old data, but other than the odd super hot summer (it actually looks like this one is set to do that again) I don't think things, on average, change so much.

At the same time, with climate change, things could change to warmer lake temps, but even so, I don't expect the outliers to change by much.

The key to a warm swim is knowing your lakes. Obviously shallow warms quicker, but some of the clearer lakes are fed by under ground springs or aquifers, these take a long time to warm. But also wind direction on the day and aspect of lake. Wind causes circulation, it pushes surface water up a lake, allowing colder water to surface at the other end, no surprises which end is warmer.

Posted by: skogsbo 23.May.2020, 11:54 AM

http://vansbrosimningen.se/en/home/

Even the rivers straight off the hills and melted snow are 10c.

Posted by: TheExpatEagle 23.May.2020, 08:04 PM

The water temperature today in ?resund, basically open sea, was 12 degrees. The air temperature was 15 degrees.

Posted by: TheExpatEagle 23.May.2020, 11:11 PM

The British Embassy has published updated guidelines this evening. In them was the following:

Can I keep my UK driving licence?
If you are resident in Sweden, you will need to exchange you UK licence to a Swedish licence. After 31 December 2020 your UK licence will not be valid in Sweden, and you will not be able to exchange it for a Swedish licence.


Posted by: JonathanR 23.May.2020, 11:29 PM

QUOTE (TheExpatEagle @ 23.May.2020, 11:11 PM) *
The British Embassy has published updated guidelines this evening. In them was the following:

Can I keep my UK driving licence?
If you are resident in Sweden, you will need to exchange you UK licence to a Swedish licence. After 31 December 2020 your UK licence will not be valid in Sweden, and you will not be able to exchange it for a Swedish licence.


Well, that's a ballache.

Thanks for that Brexit!

I'm not bothered though, in all honesty. I've sat plenty of driving tests and machine assessments over the years and they don't stress me. It'll be interesting to see where what is taught differs in each country. Also, whilst I've done a bit of proper winter driving in Highland Scotland, it's something I'd benefit from tuition in.

Posted by: TheExpatEagle 24.May.2020, 12:20 AM

QUOTE (JonathanR @ 24.May.2020, 12:29 AM) *
Well, that's a ballache.

Thanks for that Brexit!

I'm not bothered though, in all honesty. I've sat plenty of driving tests and machine assessments over the years and they don't stress me. It'll be interesting to see where what is taught differs in each country. Also, whilst I've done a bit of proper winter driving in Highland Scotland, it's something I'd benefit from tuition in.


I'm sure it won't be a problem to pass the driving test at all. It is just very expensive and time consuming to do. Depending when you sat your test it might be a different system because of the theory, hazard perception I & II and practical test. I think vehicle maintenance is part of it now as well such as winter tyres regulations and so on.

Of course you will only get winter driving experience if you are lucky to have lessons in winter. A lot of places south of Stockholm have not had a winter for 2 years.*

*Official winter in Sweden is classed as 5 days or more of minus temperatures in a calendar month. In the past (almost) 24 months it has just been cloudy, windy and raining in the winter months. The weather is getting more like the south of England each year! This past Christmas it was 8 degrees and raining! :-/







Posted by: Gimp 24.May.2020, 12:27 AM

QUOTE (TheExpatEagle @ 24.May.2020, 12:11 AM) *
The British Embassy has published updated guidelines this evening. In them was the following:

Can I keep my UK driving licence?
If you are resident in Sweden, you will need to exchange you UK licence to a Swedish licence. After 31 December 2020 your UK licence will not be valid in Sweden, and you will not be able to exchange it for a Swedish licence.


Also good for op to know is that you will have to know Swedish for the driving test with the instructor... unless that has changed but I doubt it. I guess it could depend on the instructor as well. Theory test will be in English but obviously some Swedish will be necessary.

For whatever form of driving equipment you operate, you will obviously need a separate license for that... maybe that is easier to transfer from your UK licensing though?






Posted by: Gimp 24.May.2020, 12:29 AM


Posted by: Grommet 24.May.2020, 05:15 AM


Posted by: bonviveur 24.May.2020, 07:02 AM

QUOTE (JonathanR @ 24.May.2020, 12:29 AM) *
Well, that's a ballache.

Thanks for that Brexit!

I'm not bothered though, in all honesty. I've sat plenty of driving tests and machine assessments over the years and they don't stress me. It'll be interesting to see where what is taught differs in each country. Also, whilst I've done a bit of proper winter driving in Highland Scotland, it's something I'd benefit from tuition in.


it is expensive to exange your licence other than A,B categories, I will keep mine B,C,E from other EU country as long as I can. cost comes from medical checks which need to be done every year at a cost 1500-2000 vs in my home country once in a 5 years.

Posted by: TheExpatEagle 24.May.2020, 06:57 PM

QUOTE (bonviveur @ 24.May.2020, 08:02 AM) *
it is expensive to exange your licence other than A,B categories, I will keep mine B,C,E from other EU country as long as I can. cost comes from medical checks which need to be done every year at a cost 1500-2000 vs in my home country once in a 5 years.


Under EU law you have to exchange it after 24 months at the latest. All categories are on one licence so you can't move A and B but leave the rest on a different licence.

I can't speak for your home country but in the UK you are supposed to surrender your licence if you do not have a UK address so that might be something to consider.

If your permanent residence is in Sweden then the licence should be exchanged.

I'm only stating the law.

Posted by: bonviveur 24.May.2020, 07:53 PM

...

Posted by: bonviveur 24.May.2020, 07:54 PM

QUOTE (TheExpatEagle @ 24.May.2020, 07:57 PM) *
Under EU law you have to exchange it after 24 months at the latest. All categories are on one licence so you can't move A and B but leave the rest on a different licence.

I can't speak for your home country but in the UK you are supposed to surrender your licence if you do not have a UK address so that might be something to consider.

If your permanent residence is in Sweden then the licence should be exchanged.

I'm only stating the law.

I have different answer from transportstyrelsen, licence from other EU country is valid until end of valid date on that licence but can be exhanged voluntarily sooner

Posted by: skogsbo 24.May.2020, 07:56 PM

QUOTE (bonviveur @ 24.May.2020, 07:54 PM) *
I have different answer from transportstyrelsen, licence from other EU country is valid until end of valid date on that licence but can be exhanged voluntarily sooner

That's what I was told and only changed mine sooner because of Brexit. Prior to that even on the police's random roadside winter tyres and alcohol tests I would just produce my UK licence and ID card, never a problem.

Posted by: Grommet 25.May.2020, 04:18 AM

And I could add I tried to change my EU DL and when I went in to TS they told I didn't need to, so I didn't bother.

That also seemed to suit the police, who pulled my wife over (car was in my name), thinking it was me, at one point. The reason they pulled the car over was because they knew I did not have a Swedish DL. She simply told them I have an EU one, and that was the end of it.

That was around 2014, so I suppose something could have changed by now.

Posted by: TheExpatEagle 25.May.2020, 07:14 PM

QUOTE (bonviveur @ 24.May.2020, 08:54 PM) *
I have different answer from transportstyrelsen, licence from other EU country is valid until end of valid date on that licence but can be exhanged voluntarily sooner


Personally I don't care what people do but EU law trumps Swedish law and ignorance is no defence.

This is from the EU's website:

Obligatory exchange of your driving licence in another EU country

You have to exchange your driving licence if:

Posted by: at_the_gates 25.May.2020, 10:29 PM

I moved to Sweden a year ago from the UK with my family, however i relocated with my existing employer. We haven't decided if we will stay for good or not yet. I think it will come down to economics. For all the positives, now we like being outside a massive city i could stay here, or i could move to the country in the UK and have 30% more money. We'll see.

You just have to be realistic. We like living here but like all countries it has issues. There is crime (i have had my bike stolen or vandalised here more times in 12 months than the previous 12 years in Hackney), some serious and there are areas here which even i think are complete shtholes to be avoided and that's from someone who grew up in East London in the 80s. There is more of a populist right wing on the rise just as there was in the UK (again like the UK based on immigration as the main topic), it may be that the next government is propped up by the Sweden Democrats who are basically the equivalent of the UKIP/BNP.

However, I would say if you like outdoors life it's great here, one of the stereotypes i do agree with is it is a more active culture. The best thing for us moving from London is the air, the forests lakes and sea. It's a great environment and the kids love it. Being able to pick them up from school and walk to the sea rather than walking over the A306 and 50 flytipped mattresses is a much nicer experience. Generally speaking i think the environment is better for us at the moment than London. Less people, less traffic, easier to cycle. I used to spend an hour on the central line, now i can ride 10km to work and be on proper cycle paths the whole way. It's just more pleasant generally.

I can't really comment on getting a job as i moved with one, most Swedes i work with are hard working though, and they are all protective of their family time which is fine by me. However I can rely on them to pitch in after hours if we need to.

Posted by: Mrs Robinsson 25.May.2020, 11:13 PM

QUOTE (at_the_gates @ 25.May.2020, 10:29 PM) *
There is crime (i have had my bike stolen or vandalised here more times in 12 months than the previous 12 years in Hackney),


Who is doing this? Who is sealing and vandalizing? Swedes? Teenagers? Muslim immigrants? Lesbians?

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 25.May.2020, 11:39 PM

You nailed it!!!

It was a naturalized young religious female that practices an alternate lifestyle rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Gimp 26.May.2020, 03:36 AM

:/

Posted by: Gimp 26.May.2020, 03:37 AM


Posted by: Grommet 26.May.2020, 09:33 AM


Posted by: JonathanR 26.May.2020, 11:01 PM

I had a really good conversation with a tree surgeon/forestry friend near Uppsala last night. He's actually been slightly busier since lockdown with more people working from home, they've had more time to think about the tree work that they want done. Not that I get involved with domestic work.

What was also encouraging is that there does seem to be a boom in small machine forestry in Sweden. There is a Swedish company called Kranman (I have one of their machines) and they developed and released a small harvester about a year ago. It was initially met with some derision amongst some in the industry as being a 'timber toy' but Kranman have sold in excess of 25 of them in the last year (at 800-900k SEK) so the demand is there.

One of the guys that works for me now in the UK (he's worked for me for over 7 years) is sick to death of the place and would happily come and do 3-4 long days a week for me machine operating, meaning we could keep it going 7 days a week.

I'm feeling positive about the way the plan is developing.

Posted by: Mrs Robinsson 27.May.2020, 01:31 AM

Good for you Jon. Get the inertia starting to accumulate now so that once you've arrived you can stay oblivious to the fact that your soul will die a little bit every day you have to interact with Swedes. Once that's gone, start drinking heavily.

Then begin to understand Bergman. None of the locals will be able to grasp this but it's part of a strategy of maintaining one's mental health.

Posted by: Gimp 27.May.2020, 04:30 AM


Posted by: JonathanR 27.May.2020, 07:15 AM

QUOTE (Mrs Robinsson @ 27.May.2020, 01:31 AM) *
Good for you Jon. Get the inertia starting to accumulate now so that once you've arrived you can stay oblivious to the fact that your soul will die a little bit every day you have to interact with Swedes. Once that's gone, start drinking heavily.

Then begin to understand Bergman. None of the locals will be able to grasp this but it's part of a strategy of maintaining one's mental health.


Honestly, I'm somewhat misanthropic. I just like forest, lakes, table tennis, fishing and generally not talking to people too much. I think I'll fit in fine. My wife is of a similar mindset.

biggrin.gif

Posted by: TheExpatEagle 27.May.2020, 07:31 PM

QUOTE (JonathanR @ 27.May.2020, 12:01 AM) *
I had a really good conversation with a tree surgeon/forestry friend near Uppsala last night. He's actually been slightly busier since lockdown with more people working from home, they've had more time to think about the tree work that they want done. Not that I get involved with domestic work.

What was also encouraging is that there does seem to be a boom in small machine forestry in Sweden. There is a Swedish company called Kranman (I have one of their machines) and they developed and released a small harvester about a year ago. It was initially met with some derision amongst some in the industry as being a 'timber toy' but Kranman have sold in excess of 25 of them in the last year (at 800-900k SEK) so the demand is there.

One of the guys that works for me now in the UK (he's worked for me for over 7 years) is sick to death of the place and would happily come and do 3-4 long days a week for me machine operating, meaning we could keep it going 7 days a week.

I'm feeling positive about the way the plan is developing.


I don't want to pee on your Cornflakes but he would have to get a work visa to work for you in 2022 and not to look down on your industry but I doubt he would qualify as a special case. That's before he figures out the tax , employee contributions, etc.

If he got a work permit he'd be better off just moving to Sweden as the pay will be less here so he'd need a cheaper living situation.

Posted by: Mrs Robinsson 27.May.2020, 11:58 PM

QUOTE (JonathanR @ 27.May.2020, 07:15 AM) *
Honestly, I'm somewhat misanthropic. I just like forest, lakes, table tennis, fishing and generally not talking to people too much. I think I'll fit in fine. My wife is of a similar mindset.

biggrin.gif


I can relate...my spouse and I are the same way. Virus quarantine has been a good thing for us in this hemisphere...

We look forward to hopefully hearing how things go for you.

Posted by: JonathanR 16.Sep.2020, 10:03 AM

So, to update you all...

We're popping over to Sweden for a week next month to have a bloody good explore. Flying to Copenhagen and then driving around for a week, going as far north as G?vle. Intending to meet a chap from the Skogsstyrelson in Kalmar with whom I've been corresponding. Going to visit a forestry machinery company too. I have one of their machines here.

Also started on Duolingo just over three weeks ago with Swedish. I'm really enjoying it and find it quite easy (so far!) as I speak German too.

Can't wait to visit next month.

Posted by: Martin565 16.Sep.2020, 01:34 PM

QUOTE (Mrs Robinsson @ 28.May.2020, 12:58 AM) *
I can relate...my spouse and I are the same way. Virus quarantine has been a good thing for us in this hemisphere...

We look forward to hopefully hearing how things go for you.



QUOTE (JonathanR @ 16.Sep.2020, 11:03 AM) *
So, to update you all...

We're popping over to Sweden for a week next month to have a bloody good explore. Flying to Copenhagen and then driving around for a week, going as far north as G?vle. Intending to meet a chap from the Skogsstyrelson in Kalmar with whom I've been corresponding. Going to visit a forestry machinery company too. I have one of their machines here.

Also started on Duolingo just over three weeks ago with Swedish. I'm really enjoying it and find it quite easy (so far!) as I speak German too.

Can't wait to visit next month.

If you?re not going to go Sfi don?t use duolingo as a learning app it?s no good it just teaches Written repetition sentences that are no good for learning the actual language like ?the monkey in the tree doesn?t like wind? use the Babbel app. It?s far better teaches how to construct proper sentences and far more listening speaking exercises on it.


Posted by: JonathanR 14.Nov.2020, 11:39 AM


Posted by: BadgeringAway 14.Nov.2020, 01:02 PM


Posted by: JonathanR 14.Nov.2020, 01:56 PM


Posted by: BadgeringAway 14.Nov.2020, 02:26 PM

My daughter did German at school and I know the Scandinavian languages, like English, are very Germanic. Maybe in a couple of years I can look at doing some German after I have got the Swedish down (or 10 years time!).

I assumed, going on the 2k+ kilometres driving I did earlier in the year, that there is forestry everywhere but it stands to reason the less populated areas are where the real action would be.

Btw - on the west side of Vanern, there is the biggest paper processing factory I have ever seen (and smellled!) - near Grums. Incredible to watch the logs all turn up on trains - similar to how you used to see the never ending coal trains near the power stations here - and see through the giant windows at all the paper action.

We are punting on the west side (after some serious exploring) because my daughter has close Norwegian friends and Oslo airport is another good alternative to Goteborg/V?ster?s. The forest goes on for ever there too and the S?ffle kommun is apparently the sunniest place in Sweden!

Posted by: JonathanR 14.Nov.2020, 02:49 PM

Yeah, we saw that! One of our overnight stops was at the Rasta motel at Grums. Incredible scale of timber processing in Sweden.

I didn't realise S?ffle was so sunny - it's certainly a nice area, and I want to explore the peninsula that juts out into V?nern.

Posted by: Guest 14.Nov.2020, 05:32 PM


Posted by: Martin565 14.Nov.2020, 06:39 PM


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