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Equality for Islamic women!

At last a significant step forward!!!

Gamla Hälsingebock
post 14.Jan.2019, 12:52 AM
Post #31
Joined: 21.Dec.2006

I would include the words futures management investing...

A lot of people have paid their(tithe)way into heaven, the money however stays here...
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Bsmith
post 14.Jan.2019, 01:39 PM
Post #32
Joined: 25.Jun.2009

QUOTE (Jamtjim @ 13.Jan.2019, 10:26 PM) *
Yes, that could be quite a plausible explaination... had Jesus been simply a man. But that is not the claim that Christians make. They claim that he was divine and either wa ... (show full quote)




Again, each person is entitled to their own beliefs. Not everyone is attentive to God's word...especially in secular Sweden. Zechariah 7:11:"But they refused to pay attention and turned a stubborn shoulder and stopped their ears from hearing."

I, of course, believe differently than you, Jamtjim. I believe that God is perfect and the source of all good and that Jesus Christ was and is his emissary to the world.

The problem with religious debates is that neither side's case can be proven or dis-proven. Lee Strobel wrote an interesting book, "The Case for Christ", in which he uses his journalistic prowess to "prove" the existence and omnipotence of Christ. He makes some very compelling arguments but the "case" can never really be proven. It will always fall to a matter of faith.

It is good to read you again on this forum, Jamtjim. You are a thoughtful and reasonable person, and a good writer. I hope you keep posting from time to time.
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intrepidfox
post 14.Jan.2019, 03:44 PM
Post #33
Location: Gothenburg
Joined: 18.Jul.2012

Jamtjim

Welcome back.
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Gamla Hälsingebock
post 14.Jan.2019, 07:41 PM
Post #34
Joined: 21.Dec.2006

About the Bible:

I have always been interested in its origin which I believe to be a compilation of folklore tales cataloged and written down at some time and then translated, interpreted, changed, etc by many different peoples over a long time frame and have wondered what the world would be like today if an original manuscript written in it's original language had been used to create what we accept today as the "Gospel"...

As we all know languages and their meanings/interpretations change over time and I recently posted an old adage that England and America are two countries separated by a common language...

We rap to a chick and the Brits chat up a bird...Interpret those sentences using a language based on ancient Latin as spoken in a Provence far away from Rome by people using only the textbook interpretations and local slang/usages!!!

I'll bet somebody will add an egg to that mixture!!! laugh.gif
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Jamtjim
post 14.Jan.2019, 08:23 PM
Post #35
Joined: 11.Sep.2006

Thanks for the kind words Bsmith and the welcome intrepidfox.

QUOTE (Bsmith @ 14.Jan.2019, 01:39 PM) *
Again, each person is entitled to their own beliefs. Not everyone is attentive to God's word...especially in secular Sweden. Zechariah 7:11:"But they refused to pay ... (show full quote)


As I mentioned previously, thanks to the secular society that we have the great fortune to live in we are indeed (and quite rightly) entitled to our own beliefs. History tells us what happens under the rule of authoritarian theocracies and we need look no further than other parts of the world to see the same lack of freedoms today. This freedom of belief does not mean however that all beliefs are of equal validity or justification. David Ike believes for example that Tony Blair is a reptilian shapeshifter from another planet he does this despite the lack of evidence for his position and in spite of plenty of evidence countering it. Whilst it might be that not everyone is attentive to God's word, in order to justify this assertion, one would first have to demonstrate that there exists a God and then that the word is his. Without such a justification then the assertion is no different than asserting that not everyone is attentive to the word of David Ike's reptilian overlords.

Please rest assured that I am not trying to be offensive here it is just that the two statements are procedurally identical. Without adequate justification, the claim of God's word is logically no more persuasive than that of David Ike's reptilian's.

QUOTE (Bsmith @ 14.Jan.2019, 01:39 PM) *
I, of course, believe differently than you, Jamtjim. I believe that God is perfect and the source of all good and that Jesus Christ was and is his emissary to the world.


Well, I guess my question would be what reason do you have to think that this God actually exists? How have you arrived at the conclusion he is perfect and the source of all good (being the creator of everything surely he is ultimately also the creator of all evil)? And what justification have you for thinking that JC was his emissary?

QUOTE (Bsmith @ 14.Jan.2019, 01:39 PM) *
The problem with religious debates is that neither side's case can be proven or dis-proven. Lee Strobel wrote an interesting book, "The Case for Christ", in whic ... (show full quote)


This is not strictly true I am afraid. Depending on what claims are being made for any chosen god, then they absolutely can be at least disproven. Indeed the concept of omnipotence (at least in the classical description of being able to do literally anything ... or alternatively that there is literally nothing that he/she could not do)is a very good example as it is a rather trivial exercise to show this a logical impossibility, and a claim for a God with this property is by definition also impossible. Check out the "Omnipotence Paradox" if you are unsure why this is the case.

On a side note, today's more sophisticated theologians are wont to redefine the term omnipotence in order to still claim it for their God This often results in little more than a circular tautology ("God can do all that is in his nature" or the even more asinine "God can do everything that he can do"). No matter, any limitation to his power is by definition something he/she cannot do. However, this is certainly not what I was taught growing up in mainstream Christianity. Indeed that God cannot possibly exist due to the logically impossible omnipotence it was claimed he possessed.

If one's goal is to believe things that are true (an avoid believing in things that are not), then the time to believe something is when it has been demonstrated to be true rather than not been demonstrated to be false. This is not preaching or asserting a moral viewpoint, it is a statement of reason. I, for example, cannot prove that there are not invisible fairies living at the end of my garden. This doesn't mean that I am in any way justified in believing that there are and to do so would be ludicrous. And whilst it is not strictly true that one cannot prove a negative, not being able to prove provides absolutely no justification for the positive.

Finally, I would point out that faith is an incredibly unsound basis for belief. "Faith" is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have any evidence. If you have evidence, then you don't need faith. The problem is that without evidence then one has no means of decerning whether a claim is true or not thus rendering true and false claims indistinguishable from each other... one literally has no way of telling between the two. Let me put it another way, is there anything that one could not believe on faith? On faith one is equally able to believe false things as one is true ones. It is not a pathway to the truth it is a barrier to it. This is why we don't, for example, allow Airbus to build their aircraft "on faith", we ask for stringent checks to provide evidence of safety. You wouldn't get on a new A380 if you knew that the aircraft had been build on faith as you wouldn't want to find yourself spread like jam over a local field, yet faith is the reason given for what is potentially the most important decision of our lives if the claims of religion are to be believed.
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Jamtjim
post 14.Jan.2019, 08:31 PM
Post #36
Joined: 11.Sep.2006

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock @ 14.Jan.2019, 07:41 PM) *
About the Bible:I have always been interested in its origin which I believe to be a compilation of folklore tales cataloged and written down at some time and then translated, ... (show full quote)


I also have been fascinated by the Bible and indeed have read it in its entirety (well perhaps skipping some of the begats) several times over the years. In fact, it is quite true to say that reading the Bible and being appalled by its contents (in both Testaments) set me on the path to renounce the faith of my childhood and to my eventual atheism.
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Bsmith
post 14.Jan.2019, 09:31 PM
Post #37
Joined: 25.Jun.2009

QUOTE (Jamtjim @ 14.Jan.2019, 07:23 PM) *
Well, I guess my question would be what reason do you have to think that this God actually exists? How have you arrived at the conclusion he is perfect and the source of all g ... (show full quote)


When entering into such discussions (especially on the internet) one often runs into non-believers whom dismiss believers as fools that believe in myths, fairy stories and the invisible spaghetti monster. Of course, there are those believers who adopt a smug, righteous, "I'm going to heaven and you're not" attitude as a defense. Neither positions are helpful.

As a practicing (keyword "practicing" as it is a work in progress) Christian, I still admit it is a difficult stretch to believe in God. How can a person believe in something that he cannot see, smell, hear or taste? Of course, I can say that I see God in the beauty of nature and the interconnectedness of all things. I can hear God in a beautiful song or the call of a bird, but these things are subjective, I realize. George Carlin did a very humorous bit on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE.

Still, you ask why I believe and the answer is that I have seen the work of His hand is my life. Of course, some would dismiss these personal occurrences as mere coincidence, but to me they are evidence of God guiding my life.

I have also read the Bible through, skipping through the same passage you did, no doubt. I did not have the same reaction as you, however. I don't know why God's word resonates with some and not others.
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Gamla Hälsingebock
post 14.Jan.2019, 09:48 PM
Post #38
Joined: 21.Dec.2006

The beliefs of "Pagans" are better suited to the understanding of religion and why it exists, nobody can deny the beauty of Mother Nature's gifts to us because we can see, hear, smell and feel them...

Maybe a better question would be why we "invented" God and why do we need to have one instead of many now???

Didn't the Pagans, when first made aware of the one God theory/idea say "there is too much work for one God" and doesn't that support Carlin's explanation of why he made the mountains different sizes??? laugh.gif

Is religion the reason for God, or is God the reason for religion???
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yet another brit
post 14.Jan.2019, 09:48 PM
Post #39
Joined: 5.Jan.2013

sometimes it helps to remember that religion is man's attempt to explain cope with something beyond his understanding the inevitability of death.
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Jamtjim
post 14.Jan.2019, 10:51 PM
Post #40
Joined: 11.Sep.2006

QUOTE (Bsmith @ 14.Jan.2019, 09:31 PM) *
Of course, I can say that I see God in the beauty of nature and the interconnectedness of all things. I can hear God in a beautiful song or the call of a bird, but these thin ... (show full quote)


Yes, this is known as "arguemtum ad formam" or more colloquially as the "look at the trees argument" and is a pretty poor justification. Firstly it is as you say subjective; the perception of beauty is a psychological phenomenon and there are far better explanations for it than the work of an unproven supernatural entity. Evolutionary theory provides one such far more reasonable explanation in that we as human beings have evolved to find beauty in our surroundings rather than the idea that the surroundings have been created with beauty inherent in it. It also demonstrates selection bias by focusing on the beautiful while ignoring things like tapeworms and other frankly horrible things found throughout nature.

QUOTE (Bsmith @ 14.Jan.2019, 09:31 PM) *
Still, you ask why I believe and the answer is that I have seen the work of His hand is my life. Of course, some would dismiss these personal occurrences as mere coincidence, ... (show full quote)


I understand that, but how are you able to differentiate between coincidence which one can demonstrate exists and a God which you can't? Surely, in order to reasonably attribute these occurrences to divine intervention, one must first rule out the possibility of coincidence?

QUOTE (Bsmith @ 14.Jan.2019, 09:31 PM) *
I don't know why God's word resonates with some and not others.


Perhaps because some of us are less ready to accept these writings as the word of God. Furthermore, the God portrayed in the Bible, especially in the Old Testament is a pretty hideous figure outrightly demanding genocide (specifically the murder of children) and the keeping of sex slaves:

"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." - Numbers 31:17-18

Remember that is the same God is the very same one in the New Testament who is claimed to be omnibenevolent. So my question would be why does this kind of thing resonate with anyone with a functioning moral compass?

Now whilst the above verses definitively falsify the claim of omnibenevolence and thus disprove the claim of the Christian God possessing this attribute, it doesn't prove the non-existance of one that doesn't. However who could ever worship such an entity? Imagine that such an entity's existence was in some way demonstrated, I would then have no option than to become a theist. Yet I still could never, ever worship or revere such a god as I am morally superior to it as are 99.99% of humankind.
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Gamla Hälsingebock
post 18.Jan.2019, 04:20 PM
Post #41
Joined: 21.Dec.2006

There is a difference in God as depicted in the new an old testaments..

The old testament God is believed out of fear and awe of him...

The new testament God is believed out of love and the promise of an afterlife...

Sort of like "good cop, bad cop"...

But supposedly he is the same god, so why the difference???

Maybe to create a new political "power base" in competition with the old one???

And then along comes a new religion!!!

To compete with the old ones in a three way competition for souls, or what???

Or another political reason to unite a certain group of people...

The best part is they all say they believe in god but spend a lot of effort killing each other in his name...

I wonder why???

It seems the idea of god does not work!!!
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mikkelkasper
post 1.Mar.2019, 09:25 AM
Post #42
Joined: 29.Jan.2019

I came across a story of a young Islamic girl being killed In Kenya Africa..The Aunt was responsible here...was using her as a sex slave..what is our world turning into if the community can have knowledge of this and do nothing.
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