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An open letter to Miss Kitten

And any other Mods.

Jamtjim
post 9.Apr.2012, 07:47 AM
Post #1
Joined: 11.Sep.2006

With reference to the thread "Have Trowbridge's proven lies been removed?" which I see has now been closed (otherwise I would have replied there).

QUOTE
The cat problem thread was closed and removed because, as Johno already guessed, it was hijacked and turned into a monkey poo-flinging fight.

Well thank you Miss Kitten for the explanation, tardy though it undoubtedly was. But don't you think that removing an entire thread is rather like using the proverbial hammer to crack a nut? Surely this is a bit heavy handed? After all the OP made a valid point even though people disagreed with him/her with varying degrees of vociferousity.

As for the allegations of "hijacking", well let me ask you when was the last time you began a conversation only for it to end with you still remaining to talk about the same topic? It is silly and naive to expect this to occur and if one goes about removing threads because their nature is modified during the discussion there would be few threads left. The truth is that conversations and discussions are wont to vary their course and whilst it is sometimes nice for the tread to do "exactly what it says on the tin", human nature dictates otherwise. (I assume this is why thread titles are allowed to be edited and not just to wind up Trowbridge.)

I will utilise this point in the proceedings to "hijack" my own thread and go out on a little digression.

It also riles me somewhat when one hears allegations that posters are being "bullied" here on this forum. It should be remembered here that people are free to come and go, to post or simply to read at will. They are not even required to use their real names (this may come as a shock, but I am not really called Jamtjim). It is not like the puny school kid unable to escape the playground thugs; if you can't stand the heat... In addition when disagreements occur it is only words which are used as weapons. So what if some dimwit troll calls me a name? I am equally empowered to retaliate in kind if I so desire. Quite simply, the accusation of "bullying" seems only to be used when a poster is surprised by the volume of opposition to his points. Instead of making such silly accusations, perhaps the afore mentioned hypothetical poster should, to use the vernacular, grow a pair. Digression/hijack over.

QUOTE
This disgrace of a thread is no better.

Trowbridge and Jamtjim, take your dispute to private messaging and grow the hell up.

Now here is where the fun starts. I hope that you will view my comments in the way that they are intended; as constructive criticism. However I guess that if you do not, I will find myself banned rather shortly. I have always had the utmost respect for you Miss Kitten and have seldom if ever had cause to disagree with you...

This however is different and I wonder if, when writing your post you were doing so as a regular contributor of in your capacity as a "moderator". I suspect the latter as you then went on to close the tread, but for the sake of completeness, I will address both possibilities.

In the case of you posting as just another TL plebeian...

Miss Kitten, whilst I am a self-confessed art lover, I don't like ballet. In fact I loathe it; unnaturally skinny tutu clad women baring fake smiles being hoisted up in the air by equally gormless, effeminate men. But you know what? I don't turn up at the theatre wait for the performance to start only to then shout "boring" at the top of my voice! Nor do I press the fire alarm or petition to get the theatre closed down and the performance cancelled. Because do you know what? If other people are enjoying themselves then why should my personal preferences and tastes have any bearing upon that?

It is the same here. Everyone who posts or reads a thread does so at their own volition. If you don't appreciate the topic at hand, then don't read it. If you are reluctant to be involved in a discussion/argument/ monkey poo-flinging flight (to use your own delightful nomenclature) then nobody is placing the metaphorical muzzle upon your cranium.

Surely it is the party-pooper who in truth needs to "grow up".

Now for the case of you acting as a moderator.

Unless I am very much mistaken, the term "moderator" is not synonymous with "editor". Your role as such would therefore be to moderate the forum so as to ensure that the terms and conditions of use are adhered to not to misuse your privileges in order to slew the discussion towards your own personal point of view. Now as far as I am aware, none of the T and C's were transgressed in either the original (and now uncheckable by virtue of it's deletion) thread or in it's now closed successor. All I can see is a bit of petty name calling with all of the participants choosing by virtue of their contribution to participate.

Now I realise that Trow does not appreciate that he has been debunked and exposed as rather less than honest, but he could do something about that by ... erm ... I don't know ... by perhaps not posting such easily debunkable untruths maybe? It is possible that I do not relish Trow's totally unfounded and unsubstantiated claims about me, but I know that if I wish to participate on internet forums, I cannot expect else to be nice to me or polite towards me... I accept that I am fair game. Whatever, it does not matter I choose to post here, so does Trow and anyone else who chooses to drop in.

It truly amazes me that trolls, openly racist or otherwise, seem to come and post with evident impunity but as soon as a couple of posters get into a little ding-dong, it's suddenly thread deleted or posting suspended. I would suggest that the "moderation team" need to re-access their priorities.

So there we have it. Only posts which stick rigidly to topic will be tolerated; any digression will result in entire threads vanishing without explanation. Crackpots such at Trowbridge will be able to post their nonsensical, fraudulent and often defamatory garbage, but anyone taking a sceptical line with them or exposing them as being dishonest will be told to "grow up" or that their posts are a "disgrace". This is the beginning of a true Trowocracy where any dissent from hardcore Trowology will be "moderated" by overly sensitive censors seemingly lacking in the ability not to read something that they may not appreciate. Jeez... it's pathetic really!

I think it is evident as to who should grow up and who is the disgrace in this instance...

Otherwise happy easter.
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*Guest*
post 9.Apr.2012, 08:48 AM
Post #2


Since Jamtjim has claimed that I am a crackpot - whose covert claims have been disproven, whose professional achievements have been debunked to the point that they are fraudulent, and whose charges against real people have been shown to risk libel actions - whose lies have become an ideology, Trowology, which the site's moiderators, particularly Miss Kitten, have made into policy,Trowocracy, I feel I have a right to respond even though Miss Kitten has not yet done so.

While I, who was seen as the instigator of the takedown of the original thread, did not agree with all of her judgment, I do believe that it is her job to monitor such fights as best she can, and I support what she has done.

And I have followed her advice as carefully as I can to avoid any renewal of my ongoing disputes with Jamtjim, responding as fully as I can to questions asked me, putting nothing in responses to OPs which they may take offense to, and giving honest advice about most suspicious claims when requested to do so.

I have made no effort, nor shall I, though, to continue my disputes with Jamtjim through PMs.

Given his root-and-branch condemnation of Miss Kitten as a poster, and a moderator, seems we have reached a point where someone has to either apologize, and promise not to repeat the offences, or leave.

Jamtjim is the clear offender here, IMHO, and he should either shape up or ship out.
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chazza
post 9.Apr.2012, 09:11 AM
Post #3
Location: Scandanavia
Joined: 15.May.2010

Are you people for real ?

was this a serious fight ? you really think that his stuff offfends anyone at all here ???? Thats why there's an ignore button

I thought everyone accepted that THF is a verbose troll whose theories elicit some articulate responses from people who just get off on debunking stuff. blink.gif

Surely these responses are a take or leave it amusement for members of this forum which until now I thought was exempt from the nanny state mentality we have to deal with with the rest of our lives here.

Since when has any thread that has elicited more than 6 replies not been hijacked to some degree or other and who the freak cares? It's the nature of conversation to be tangental for crying out loud. angry.gif
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Jamtjim
post 9.Apr.2012, 09:20 AM
Post #4
Joined: 11.Sep.2006

QUOTE
And I have followed her advice as carefully as I can to avoid any renewal of my ongoing disputes with Jamtjim, responding as fully as I can to questions asked me, putting nothing in responses to OPs which they may take offense to, and giving honest advice about most suspicious claims when requested to do so.

Like responding to an innocent and valid question by calling the poster a "narcissist" for holding an opinion contrary to your own (the point where the original thread kicked off)? Yeah nice one Trow!

QUOTE
Given his root-and-branch condemnation of Miss Kitten as a poster, and a moderator, seems we have reached a point where someone has to either apologize, and promise not to repeat the offences, or leave.

I hardly think that criticism of Miss Kitten's actions on a specific issue can honestly be called a "root-and-branch condemnation of Miss Kitten as a poster, and a moderator" even in the crackpot world of Trow, so I will treat that comment with the contempt it deserves as a clear attempt to inflame the situation. Furthermore, I do not take instruction from you or anyone else much to your chagrin. I see no connection between good faith constructive criticism and a duty to take leave of this forum; if I am wrong, I am wrong but I don't think so. Miss Kitten is quite at liberty to think differently from me, yet we can both remain active participants, freindly and respectful towards each other. Unlike yourself Trowbridge, I am able to peacefully exist alongside people I disagree with.

Of course you would like me to leave, forceably removed or prevented from posting in another way precisely because you wish your silly claims to remain unopposed as you are completely and shockingly unable to support them in any way. Rather than step up to the mark and substantiate your allegations, your resort to petitioning to have your self-incriminating threads and posts removed whilst calling for the removal of posters positing alternative views and opinions to your own. You show that you are unable to deal with opposition in a reasonable way and show yourself to be no more that a coward.

QUOTE
Jamtjim is the clear offender, IMHO, and he should either shape up or ship out.

Yes well, as with everything else, I don't suppose that anyone gives a rats ass about your opinion Trowbridge but there you go.

But in relation to your wish for me to leave, I should point out a slight, although at the time unrealised, inaccuracy contained within my original post where I claimed the the Terms and Conditions had not been breached in any of the previous threads however this proves not to be the case.

Paragraph 8 of the T and C's states clearly that one should not "promote information that you know is deceptive or phony". It strikes me as quite clear that you have transgressed this rule on multiple occasions. I however will not call for you to be banned, your presence as forum clown is far too enjoyable for that, but would rather point out that Trowbridges in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
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Jamtjim
post 9.Apr.2012, 09:31 AM
Post #5
Joined: 11.Sep.2006

@chazza

QUOTE
I thought everyone accepted that THF is a verbose troll whose theories elicit some articulate responses from people who just get off on debunking stuff.

I couldn't agree more. I love debunking stuff especially the nonsense emanating from Trow. I also enjoy teasing him and watching him go off on one. It is mischievous I know, but harmless fun nonetheless.

QUOTE
Surely these responses are a take or leave it amusement for members of this forum which until now I thought was exempt from the nanny state mentality we have to deal with with the rest of our lives here.

Once again I couldn't agree more. I don't read threads which don't interest me let alone post on them and I certainly would not call for their removal. Each to their own.

QUOTE
Since when has any thread that has elicited more than 6 replies not been hijacked to some degree or other and who the freak cares? It's the nature of conversation to be tangental for crying out loud.

Which was exactly my point to Miss Kitten and anyone else who cries "hijack" whenever a thread doesn't remain totally on track.
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Johno
post 9.Apr.2012, 09:51 AM
Post #6
Joined: 23.Jul.2008

Since my moniker was quoted, I nail my colours to the mast of being firmly of the school thinking that at least the first thread should have been stamped on by a vigilant moderator much earlier. Two things went wrong. The OP ended up getting abused, and it may be just my view that it went too far. Thats debatable. Most established regular posters are polishing there egos more often than not when they post

Then there was the highjacking, not just going off track but extreme. Good moderation as happens elsewhere would stop threads, but shift content to a new topic when they go so far off topic.

Now this thread is in danger of going off title, and turned into a slanging match and a candidate for shut down. We shall see.

But I just suggest that posters on this forum note that is could be a bit friendlier to newcomers. Even though the housing thread woman the other day got trashed though her attitude, and I joined in, but at least she gave as good as she got. The poster at the start of this row didnt imho. Remeber that the forum fulfills at least 2 needs. To help folks, and yes I flaunt my flawed knowledge on phones and housing for example. And threads for folks to air views. Examples. Nemesis who doesnt post so much now, And Trow who has come back and arouses extreme reactions. I think he is mad but generally stay away.

Now is anyone going to post something constructive, or does everyone want a madhouse of a forum, repelling all boarders. Vote now.
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Rick Methven
post 9.Apr.2012, 10:45 AM
Post #7
Location: Linköping
Joined: 30.Nov.2005

QUOTE
Now is anyone going to post something constructive, or does everyone want a madhouse of a forum, repelling all boarders. Vote now.

Currently it seems that the silly season has started early. There is very little to make a constructive comment on, and so to lighten up the more boring moments over a long Easter break, things get silly helped of course by Trow taking everything seriously and as a personal attack.

Re Miss Kitten , she is just about on her own as far as moderating goes at the moment. Puffin has resigned and the TL admin is taking a strict hands off attitude as far as this discussion forum is concerned which leaves her as a one woman team fighting against the loonies, trolls and spammers.

Being a moderator is a labour of love for which you will never be thanked for and more often lambasted for as it is really not moderation in the normal meaning of the word, between two parties and finding common ground, but making a unilateral decision on what to delete/close. With more active moderators, there is always time to selectively delete posts on a thread that are derailing the original theme and keep the thread going. Miss Kitten on her own has not got that luxury, without devoting 24/7 to TL.

There are 2 possibilities for posters on the forum, either make her life a bit easier by not letting things get out of hand or, if you think you are of the right objective frame of mind, send a PM to "The Local" volunteering yourself as a moderator.
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dave.smith
post 9.Apr.2012, 10:49 AM
Post #8
Joined: 12.Jan.2007

I'll tally the votes.
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dave.smith
post 9.Apr.2012, 10:56 AM
Post #9
Joined: 12.Jan.2007

Puffin resigned????

That is sad news. I thought she was a good moderator. "Hands off" enough for threads to be interesting, but not to the point where (most) people were offended.

Just my opinion, you're all welcome to your own. Puffin, I really hope you at least don't stop posting, because your knowledge and helpful attitude is an invaluable resource for many.
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chazza
post 9.Apr.2012, 11:14 AM
Post #10
Location: Scandanavia
Joined: 15.May.2010

QUOTE
it is really not moderation in the normal meaning of the word, between two parties and finding common ground

That's a definition of mediation not moderation. Oh sorry this is hijacking the thread I guess. rolleyes.gif
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Rick Methven
post 9.Apr.2012, 11:18 AM
Post #11
Location: Linköping
Joined: 30.Nov.2005

I meant being even handed, moderators like Puffin have tried to mediate between warring parties, which sometimes have been a success, but usually it is a case of you can not please all of the people all of the time or even NEVER.
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Jamtjim
post 9.Apr.2012, 11:30 AM
Post #12
Joined: 11.Sep.2006

I agree with both Rick and Johno here. Rather perversely, since I started this thread to express my displeasure with what I regard to be an instance of misuse of moderator privileges, I think that this forum needs more (but correct obviously) moderation, not less. Both Miss Kitten and Puffin have done a sterling job in the past but it was too much for two people let alone Miss Kitten now acting on her own.

Let me be clear here. My objection was and is that an entire thread rather than the offending posts were removed. If something is written which breaches the terms and conditions, then sure remove that but a whole thread was an over reaction. I also took exception to the un-moderator like behaviour when being told to "grow up" when the topic at hand was not breaking the T and C's even if I accept that the debate/argument was not to everyone's taste. As far as I am concerned, it is water under the bridge.

All that aside, it is clear however that Miss Kitten needs help and I propose that new moderators are appointed to help her in her task. As such I would like to nominate both Rick and Johno for such positions as I think they could perform the task both fairly and effectively. This is of course if they accept such a role (I myself would be loathe to as I lack both the patience and the discipline to act impartially).

Perhaps with three mods, the racists, trolls and other people solely bent on causing offence and trouble can be rooted out. Sure let the loonies stay as well as they never cease to entertain and perhaps we should try to police ourselves a bit better (I myself feel a little guilty for not coming to the aid of the OP in the cat poo thread as I happened to agree totally with them, but largely kept away because I was wrapped up in my debunking of Trowbridge).

Most of all, we should remember that this is a bit of fun. If it ceases to be so, then why remain here? It is surely masochistic to continue to post on a forum you find tiresome so don't! If running the gauntlet of possibly being insulted, called names, being debated or debunked is so unpleasant why not remove your exposure to the risk of it?

Lastly, if you post under your real name and then go on to make a wally of yourself, then you have only yourself to blame if you feel that your reputation has been damaged.
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chazza
post 9.Apr.2012, 11:41 AM
Post #13
Location: Scandanavia
Joined: 15.May.2010

QUOTE
I meant being even handed, moderators like Puffin have tried to mediate between warring parties, which sometimes

"warring parties" its an internet forum ffs. The only weapons are WORDS !!!!!!!!

Some of those words are used artfully others are used perjoratively other pruriently if you don't like like it dont fricken read it.

seems to me like some people are threatened by eccentricity which God only knows is in short enough supply in this boring place. YES BORING even Methven admits in the post above that it gets boring. Jeez people have you never been in an Irish pub where this is just normal frickin banter !
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chazza
post 9.Apr.2012, 11:43 AM
Post #14
Location: Scandanavia
Joined: 15.May.2010

PS; I mean a REAL irish pub not those world wide plastic confected imitations

PPS: stupid remark of mine because the anser is obviously NO
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byke
post 9.Apr.2012, 11:44 AM
Post #15
Location: Europe
Joined: 28.Oct.2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eisa5AZ20W0
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