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The Local _ Family _ Swedish schools discipline & social media

Posted by: Smorgs 24.Apr.2016, 09:35 AM

We're thinking of moving to Stockholm, and the main challenge that we have is trying to work out how the discipline works in school.

We have kids (11 and 8) who are in school in London. There the discipline is strict - in that you can't swear, shout at teachers and generally disrupt the class. It seems to us that in the schools we've looked at the general feedback has been that if there's a disruptive kid then they are allowed to stay in the class - which is to the detriment of everyone else. Has anyone any experience of how the 'looser' disciplinarianism of schools in Stockholm really impacts teaching and learning?

Another issue is that of social media and gaming consumption. In London, we already think our kids spend too much time on instagram, playing games, watching media on iPads etc. - but in Stockholm it seems that kids spend their time in Fritids just playing on digital devices. This seems to add up to 15 hours a week, which is way too much in our opinion! Our thoughts are that we'd just insist that they don't, or even just only allow them to go to after school clubs 2/3 days a week - but clearly our kids won't like being different.

If anyone has any insights into these topics - please share your thoughts and comments with me! Thanks so much!!!

Posted by: littleviking 24.Apr.2016, 07:37 PM

the disciplinary might be more lenient but kids are more social.
In sweden all children have the right and the obligation to study, and not be discriminated because they might have so development problems neither for just begin rude.
They have to adjust the study to each and every child, sometimes.

sending a child out of the classroom is illegal. think as a parent you take your child to school, some teacher through him out of class then instead of the child being at least safe, the kid decided to run of somewhere goes and lets say hurts him self... what do you think happens... the school is responsible, you cant just put away the kids that are not perfect this is not how education works.
And in the end what will the other children learn, will they learn if they dont like someone or someone is different you should include them?.In real life you have to work with all sorts of people, you have to learn with all sorts of people and if you cant do that you will become an outcast. Who will hire someone that will say i cant work with john because just is disruptive...
The fact that children are kicked out from class no matter what reason is very very wrong.
If you kids see that children are discriminated they will learn to do the same.

On a separate idea i teach english part time while i am getting my teaching degree, i teach both swedes and foreigners, as well as kids that drop out of school, children that have development issues, children that speak neither swedish nor english and even children that act out. And all my students make progress because i look into their different needs. Some of my noisy ones after a private talk and a talk with out special pedagogue have discovered that they do have some learning and social problems, which their parents never bother to look into.
Last semester i had no one that failed the course and none had to retake the course. The brighter kids get extra assignments while the ones that need help get help.

Of course this depends from teacher to teacher but in the end the teacher is there to guide and present what is there to learn, explain when children have questions, if the kids refuse to learn it is the own choice. Most kids appreciate that they are treated the same and learn that discrimination is not okay. And the kids with problems improve because they see that their friends that are better at school, they learn a lot and they learn more from their friends, then if they are isolated. And the kids that do better learn about mentoring. I have 2 in my class right now that in group work they stay with the kids that need help and they decided that all on their own. The result it the kids with problems improve and the rest of the class as well.

Children in the schools i teach spend their fritids learning different things and doing sports.
In swedish schools you learn skills that are necessary to function, you learn to cook, you learn all sorts of stuff, they get help with their education and even help discover their skills and so on so like to learn to do stuff like cooking.
In Sweden kids use their Ipads for all sorts of fun school things, they get access to different tool to help then, tool to write you school stuff and send it to your teacher, platforms that their can find homework and even extra stuff they they can do if they want to, dictionary, tool for children with learning disabilities. Personally i have about 20 apps i use with the kids and teach them who to use those to help them learn fast and maybe in a more fun way.

Technology should be used in the right way. Since they are so young outside of school it is your responsibility to limit their use. It is really not good to have so much access to social media, and as far as i know that most require you to be 13 or 15 in order to get an account. I would suggest looking in to some parental lock apps so you can limit the kids access. Gaming can be good but it also matter what types of games they play. Farmville on Facebook would not be my suggestion for kids...

Since we regularly update the kids at schools IPad's they get from school we see what they have installed on their own
You cant know what your kids will do in their fritid at school, it varies very much and their personal wishes will matter.
usually stuff they can get is sports and health, music, and many more. This times is used to help them develop.
Kids get to be guided and do as many nice things, some of our kids like doing sports

Most kids in school do some kind of sports, we have only a couple that have medical problems in taking part of regular sport clubs but they still go with the school at swim lessons.
I dont live in stockholm i am more in småland in a relatively smaller town and still we have swim clubs, football, handball, hockey, innebandy, running clubs , in the end all sorts of activities and even in summer to do as much outside.
Children go regularly out with the school from dagis-daycare to high-school.

Posted by: LLHope 25.Apr.2016, 08:34 AM

It depends on which school(s). Which schools have you checked and received feedback about?

Posted by: Dr.danial 25.Apr.2016, 11:58 AM

QUOTE (Smorgs @ 24.Apr.2016, 10:35 AM) *
We're thinking of moving to Stockholm, and the main challenge that we have is trying to work out how the discipline works in school.

We have kids (11 and 8) who are in school in London. There the discipline is strict - in that you can't swear, shout at teachers and generally disrupt the class. It seems to us that in the schools we've looked at the general feedback has been that if there's a disruptive kid then they are allowed to stay in the class - which is to the detriment of everyone else. Has anyone any experience of how the 'looser' disciplinarianism of schools in Stockholm really impacts teaching and learning?

Another issue is that of social media and gaming consumption. In London, we already think our kids spend too much time on instagram, playing games, watching media on iPads etc. - but in Stockholm it seems that kids spend their time in Fritids just playing on digital devices. This seems to add up to 15 hours a week, which is way too much in our opinion! Our thoughts are that we'd just insist that they don't, or even just only allow them to go to after school clubs 2/3 days a week - but clearly our kids won't like being different.

If anyone has any insights into these topics - please share your thoughts and comments with me! Thanks so much!!!


Don't expect strict discipline in swedish schools, but in some international schools (what i learned from colleagues), a friend's kid goes to rodabergsskolan, and he is happy with the discipline standards of them.

Posted by: smullyan 25.Apr.2016, 04:11 PM

Sweden is one of the worlds great tech societies and that is something that you will have to get used to (especially in Stockholm), everything is done online here, everything. Many kids are given iPads/tablets to play with from the time they are 2 and its not unusual to see 7 year olds with smart phones at school. While you may want to shelter your kids, your kids are going to want to fit in, so be ready for that.

As for schools, take a look at the rankings and choose accordingly. There are some really great schools and some horrible schools, definitely do your homework. The hard sciences and mathematics rankings have fallen dramatically in the last 10 years so make sure the school you choose has teachers that have actually studied these subjects as currently with the shortage there is definitely not enough real maths/physics/chem teachers to go around so corners are being cut. As for discipline, well that again depends on the school. For instance, kids are allowed to talk during class, be on their phones, videotape during class ect and they can't be thrown out. The bad apples tend to ruin it for the kids that want to be there and there is very much a culture of hush hush in terms of not saying anything bad or negative about the situation. You will find there is a large turnover of teachers at many schools so once again do your homework. In a recent polling Swedish teachers scored near the top of the world for the question "If you could go back to school would you still choose to become a teacher?". 53% of Swedish teachers said they would never go into teaching if they knew then what they know now. Teachers definitely got the short straw in Sweden.

As for fritids, there are a ton to choose from and I recommend putting your kids into some kind of sport to keep them active. Sports aren't done through schools you actually need to join a special club for whatever sport it is they wish to play.

Posted by: LLHope 25.Apr.2016, 06:02 PM

QUOTE (Smorgs @ 24.Apr.2016, 08:35 AM) *
we already think our kids spend too much time on instagram, playing games, watching media on iPads etc. - but in Stockholm it seems that kids...
...and my parents didn't like the fact that I listened to Heavy Rock/Metal, watched a few cool programs on TV and read Science Fiction novels amongst other things... Times Change. I have growing kids in Swedish schools and it indeed is a battle to forget the past ... they are connected to their friends almost 24x7, it is THE thing of new generations, like it or not...it just is...they will do it anyway. Meet them or lose them.

Posted by: littleviking 25.Apr.2016, 06:37 PM

smullyan you make it seem like its impossible for students that dont act out to learn but as said before you would be surprised to know that most do just fine, some will the valuable lesson that you have to do your job no matter with who you have to work(which adults never seem to learn even after 10 years of working) and some of them will try and succeed in mentoring others. Kids these day are bright and i mean bright and learn important lesson from a young age and that is good. Classes also tend to regulate themselves i thought it was bull s((t when the school said that and i was very pleasantly surprised. I have had in the last year 15 classes of different ages, really not as horrible as some say.

Posted by: smullyan 26.Apr.2016, 12:24 PM

QUOTE (littleviking @ 25.Apr.2016, 07:37 PM) *
smullyan you make it seem like its impossible for students that dont act out to learn but as said before you would be surprised to know that most do just fine, some will the valuable lesson that you have to do your job no matter with who you have to work(which adults never seem to learn even after 10 years of working) and some of them will try and succeed in mentoring others. Kids these day are bright and i mean bright and learn important lesson from a young age and that is good. Classes also tend to regulate themselves i thought it was bull s((t when the school said that and i was very pleasantly surprised. I have had in the last year 15 classes of different ages, really not as horrible as some say.



Like I said littleviking it all comes down to doing your homework. There are some really great schools, some average schools and plenty of horrible schools. It sounds like you are enjoying your time which is great, keep it up! Perhaps you would consider taking your expertise to one of the schools that need an enthusiastic teacher? I do recall the school in Trollhattan that just had the multiple stabbing by the sword wielding nazi has a pass rate of only 16% (in which the pupil passes all of his classes for the year) for 15 year olds. Everyday in the news we are worried about enviornmental this and equality that, how about worrying about why only 16% of a whole years class can pass all of their courses instead? Like I said, a hush hush mentality.

Posted by: LLHope 26.Apr.2016, 02:15 PM

QUOTE (Savage @ 26.Apr.2016, 05:06 AM) *
The biggest issue you will face in any school in Sweden will come down to funding. As unfortunately the education system in Sweden has been grossly underfunded for a good 20+ years and this has led to the atrocious PISA results.
Spoken like a true Socialist.

If you had listened to the OECD presentation and read the OECD special investigation into Sweden's education system you would know for fact that they say that is NOT the issue. They said the lower(est) priority is funding, in fact Sweden is in the top end in spend-per-student across the OECD, and it also has one of the smallest class size averages (around 18-19 students per class) across the OECD.

The issue they said was clearly management, the root of evil can be tracked back to the 90's when the Socialist Gov. handed power over schools from State to Kommun level. The Kommuns have devastated the education system with a focus on useless fluffy things, and bare minimum required according to the national curriculum. Also that the teachers are quite simply crap. Not forgetting the problem in many schools due to mass immigration.

Yet...the Socialist government try to ignore the message from the OECD and continue to spout the we need to waste more tax payers money on education, rather than fix it, and have smaller class sizes! (already have) ...I tend now to believe that they mean physically smaller classrooms, so they can use the other parts of the school as asylboende rolleyes.gif

Posted by: DragonReborninSweden 26.Apr.2016, 03:11 PM

So discipline is quite different (and loose), as you can imagine by people saying crazy stuff like "if you kick out a kid, he could go off wandering on his own and hurt himself!"

No, if you kick a kid out of class-room, he will go to detention. Kids in the US are not simply allowed to run-around on their own during school hours. They must be in their class-room, or need a pass from the teacher to even be in the halls in between periods. Any kids without a pass will be sent to the principal's office. Skipping school/class will also result in in-school suspension and detention, and serious consequences from day 1. These are not the case in Sweden.

Response to OP starts here:
Children are treated like adults, and are expected to behave like adults, including controlling their own impulses and pace of study. If they over-perform, they will not be put in a more advanced class, but are instead expected to just do more challenging things. This means that you, as the parent, have a HUGE role in impressing upon them the expectation to be a proper learner, as well as for them to take responsibility for their own education and future.

There are some very good schools, which teach on the level of the best prep-schools/ first-year Ivy-League universities. (See for example Viktor Rydberg in STHLM). There are also much worse ones. Make sure that your kid takes their grades seriously, and can get in to the good schools. A lot of the work is "optional", as in not graded, but it falls up to each kid to do this optional work to a level so that they can pass the classes with A level requirements.

Finally, it is also looked upon negatively for parents to be too involved with their kids education, especially in high-school, so it is crucial for you to teach them proper responsibility and habits at an early age.

All in all, the OPPORTUNITY to succeed is very high in the Swedish education system, but it is essentially left up to the devices of each student, with no proper reward or punishment mechanisms in place until the end of their schooling, when all of a sudden they cannot get in to the best programs.

Posted by: Gjeebes 27.Apr.2016, 07:41 PM

"All in all, the OPPORTUNITY to succeed is very high in the Swedish education system"

Sure, but what does "succeed" actually mean in Sweden? There are no correction mechanisms. Failure is considered as punishment. And so is home-work. Hence, everyone "succeeds". Kind of like everyone wins the Gold Medal, which makes the whole idea of "winning Gold" meaningless. This is on top of the fact that Swedish students are in fact never really evaluated against any kind of standard, more so at uni. And when problems, "heaven-forbid", might be identified, there is little to no mechanism/protocol in place to deal with it, or, "heaven-forbid" correct it.

The main emphasis of the Swedish education "model" seems to be to generate the same result in each and every student, rather than to encourage students to excel. And Sweden is very good at it. Let's just wait for the next PISA/OECD results shall we, to see how much better they got at it this year.

In typical Swedish do-gooder style enters the fabled "quest for equality", which is just another way of setting the bar to the lowest possible level, so that everyone can feel "smart", even if in actual fact they are not. The whole system celebrates mediocrity and shuns excellence.

And when these little "learners" grow into big "learners" and they hit the ridiculously expensive, pre-paid "free" uni, the university teacher's union monthly has headline issues with front page stories like, "Teaching students on the 13 year old level requires a new approach", a story which emphasised how Sweden's uni students have tiny attention spans and struggle comprehending short texts of information, while explaining the poor performance levels observed (and why uni's are continuously dumbing down the courses to fit the lowered student "abilities") .

Another issue presented a story with regards to how Swedish children remain "as children" much longer in the current Swedish culture (poor job prospects means living with mama and papa for far far too long). Yet still Swedes will claim their children are really independent. laugh.gif

But they sure know how to play their games, and how to "focus" entirely on their Smart phones, even when they are walking (just like mama and papa do).

So, to the OP. Discipline? On any level? In Sweden? Good luck with that. But given the current "state-of-the-art" Swedish education model, discipline will be the least of your worries when it comes to your children's education.

Posted by: littleviking 27.Apr.2016, 09:36 PM

my students get optional home work and even the children with severe learning disabilities do them because they thinks its fun. equality work well if you are a positive teacher and a positive parent.
Please enlighten me how is it that no one failed my course and they passed also the högskoleprov with really good grade and most of them started reading actual books.

When they miss behave be discuss what are the consequences in the long term and guess what it works because kids these days are smart and they are mini adults and if you treat them like that they see the error of their ways after they see what can happen and how it affects them in the long term

Gjeebes what do you think your kids would learn if they see that schools put the kids that need more help or are different? would they learn to work with all people not just the ones that they like, or society likes or the ones that make it easier for them? definitively no

this is the problem with society, people have no social skills and cant really work with people. In real life you dont get to pick the people you work with. In real life discrimination is not okay, not to say also illegal. By discriminating against some of the students you make your kids learn that you can only work with some and being a bully and an asshole is okay if you dont like someone. And real life doesn't work like that, the assholes end up being marginalized.

Posted by: Gjeebes 28.Apr.2016, 05:36 AM

People don't have equal abilities, so robbing someone of the possibility to excel at something, just because someone else cannot, is a very stupid and misguided approach to teaching. Some kids are really good at math, some aren't, so what? How does it serve the kid who is good at math, to be held back at the level of the kid who cannot do math, simply because it might make the other kid feel different? This is complete non-sense!

I have a colleague, a Professor, who has several school age kids. One of his boys is just getting by in all subjects, in other words, not doing that well. But guess what the teacher tells him at the P-T meeting? "Your son is performing very well". Luckily, for the son, this Professor is NOT Swedish, and was having "none-of-that BS", I can tell you.

Sweden is so obsessed about not stepping on anyone's toes, that it becomes unfit for purpose in many many aspects, especially when it comes to education. Learning is hard work, learning requires discipline. What are you teaching our kids by permitting them to play with their phone during a lesson? Do you think that employees in companies can also ignore the task at hand, and focus on something so artificial? Or are they expected to have the discipline to get their work done, as that is why they come to "work"?

Education is not a pity-party for those who "can't", and it is quite arrogant to pretend that everyone has equal ability, when they clearly do not. And implementing a system to try to shape things this way, only does a disservice to those who "can".

I have seen it in the currents at uni, where I teach. We have students complaining there were "too many equations" in the course evaluations, for a fricken "computational chemistry" course. It's a bit like going swimming and then complaining about the water. The reason why this non-sense occurs, is because these little gems have already been conditioned by the "failed" yes, "failed" Swedish education model (for at least 20 years now), and are completely unprepared/unable to self-regulate and push themselves further, as is required in uni. That is why students can re-write exams, forever, until they finally pass. And they do re-write exams, or, even skip the first one, go on holiday, and then wait for the "re-write", which is anyway a misnomer since they didn't actually sit through the first one. Again, very good preparation for the real world, isn't it?

This is being discussed at uni's, trust me, and it is a massive problem. There have been a few uproars here and there in the media, but it has gone past completely ignored. The next crisis (already is) to hit the papers in Sweden, will be about the fall of the unis. And while many are aware, is anything being done to correct it? Haha, this Sweden, where "corrections" are "taboo" because it might upset someone. Too funny.

Another great example is how PhD degrees are done here. Swedish PhD candidates are possibly more coddled and protected, than your wee "learners". They have every resource available to them. There are (artifical) checks and balances in place, to ensure they are progressing (blah blah blah) and they are union positions, which means they "will" graduate. On the one hand this is beautiful, because they are given every possible chance to succeed, hand held the whole way. Yet the reality is, most of them can't finish on time, and require 1-2 years more. It is also impossible to evaluate these students, because their own "self-contribution" can be extremely small, but is well buried. Just come to a dissertation and count how many times the answer is, I didn't do that part, I don't know etc etc...these words in other countries, during your defence would mean, "you fail" (you know, in other countries where you are not allowed to include work in your dissertation, which you yourself have not done).

The approach you coddle in your teaching can be summarised like this. If you can't skate, you can't join the hockey team. Well, in the real world, that is. But in Sweden, if you can't skate, and really want to play hockey, well, let's just take the ice away...right?

Now, if this approach achieved anything, I would say "hats-off". But it clearly isn't working, is it?

Posted by: littleviking 28.Apr.2016, 10:43 AM

i think you dont underdstand how thing work, each student is at a different level yes but they get work according to their own capacity. I have kids in the same grades at 4 different levels and i manage to give each one different types of work. The some kids read very basic stuff so read Shakespeare and they are encouraged to ask for more work if they want to be better.
Kids need some discipline but more then that they need to be treated with respect and encouraged and helped if they have some sort of problem. There are kids with serious learning issues that will never be diagnosed. Kids respond to guiding and encouraging better than just making then feel like little shits, or tell them if they cant focus or they are slower that they wont be able to do anything with their life or that they are worth less.

Your idea system exist in many countries and look what crappy students they send your way. Little shitty know it all's that cant work in groups, cant follow a task or an assignment or cant even think outside the box. The uni kids that know how to study because they were
taught that if you dont do what the teacher says everything and memorize you will be an outcast.
No one is saying you should cuddle them but there are hundreds of studies that show that the kids with issues being separated will never make them try to be better and the"good " kids learn that its okay to set someone aside if he or she doesn't fit the mold.

What do you think kids in detention learn... nothing nothing or maybe hey learn that because their are different their are not worth while. Wars are started because someone doesnt like different people and teaching kids that different is bad is not good in the long term.
For a teacher you seem to have zero pedagogical studies or knowledge how learning children work. And when it come to educating adults its andragogy, which sort explain means adults only learn what they like or are interested in. While kids can be encouraged adults dont care. After age 15 until 20 its a mix of the two. you should take some courses and read some articles and studies and you might be surprised of what you learn.

The world is not just black and white, there are many shades of each color. And some of us manage quite well to teach all our kids to evolve and find what they are good at and encourage them to be the best they can. And i am quite sure that they will grow up confident, open minded ad actually knowing how to learn.

My kids have on their school iPad installed the following:
one dictionary, legimus, Intowords, Claroread, Pizmo and itslearning and a browser in case they want to search extra stuff and our school is responsible for installing things on school property. Most of them during class they use an online thesaurus and synonym page and the dictionary. We use different books and we use very little swedish. the kids that have another mother language get a second dictionary beside the swedish english.
I see very well what they do in the 90 minutes classes. The basic stuff always gets done, the kids with issues get extra help with the special pedagogue and some basic homework that they can do if they choose and the medium level kids get help if they need and home work for there level. The good and the little geniuses get more stuff to do, they get to do more advanced work, i have some really nice materials. Everyone in my group has read at least 3 books this semester and written basic texts about them.
My little genius in 5 grade read Shakespeare and is basically at a English 7 rate now, its get lots of grammar home work, every week i give it stuff to do and he brings it in very fast.
The slowest in our class has dyslexia and Asperger and while in english he is not more then a d level to c on good days , this kid does math in its head, the math teacher tell it what he wants it to resolve and nothing ever get written by the kid. I have never seem a 10 year old being able to do any math, i was a bit curios and with the math teacher explained how derivations work since in math he is so advanced and by just explaining a couple of formulas can give you an exact answer to everything. Most teachers treat children according to their needs.
The really bright ones will consistently improve faster hence they get less help more homework.
In the last year everyone has done homework and brought it to be corrected out of their own initiative. Nothings is mandatory Other teachers have noticed improvements in these kids also.

Of course not every teacher bothers this much but there are quite a lot that do.

Posted by: Gjeebes 28.Apr.2016, 12:36 PM

"Kids need some discipline but more then that they need to be treated with respect and encouraged and helped if they have some sort of problem."

Of course, I agree. I never meant to imply students should not be encouraged, respected or helped when they need it.

"Kids respond to guiding and encouraging better than just making then feel like little shits, or tell them if they cant focus or they are slower that they wont be able to do anything with their life or that they are worth less."

Again, I agree. None of what I have previously written on this subject was meant to imply that I would tell any child (or adult for that matter) they are worthless little shits. I know kids have problems, some more serious than others. Growing up can be (usually is) quite difficult.

"Your idea system exist in many countries and look what crappy students they send your way."

I teach at a uni in Sweden. The crappy students sent my way are Swedish products.

"...that show that the kids with issues being separated will never make them try to be better and the"good " kids learn that its okay to set someone aside if he or she doesn't fit the mold"

I agree. I have never thought any child should be set aside because of their ability.

"What do you think kids in detention learn?"

Kids in detention learn that their anti-social behaviour, or whatever it was that landed them in detention, will be rewarded with a temporary lack of freedom, a very boring hour or two etc etc (or what is detention in Sweden, 30 seconds?). Why the selectivity? You say the children are treated like adults, so why would you tolerate nonsense in a learning scenario, where most likely the troublemaker is disrupting others who might be interested in learning something.

I ask you, what does a kid learn by misbehaving, and never being corrected for it? What kind of adults do such children turn into?

"For a teacher you seem to have zero pedagogical studies or knowledge how learning children work."

Officially I don't teach children, although that is debatable considering the level of students of adult age I see. University is not high-school. I am there more to show people how some very advanced things work, from many different angles. The rest is up to them. If they aren't "getting it", then they would need to work harder, taking steps themselves. And in Sweden, many don't get it simply because they haven't been prepared very well, they don't have the proper background, and in fact shouldn't even be in the course they are in.

Anyway, uni students here rarely even bother to show up for lectures, and expect all course material to be available on the web. Then they complain when they fail, since there is much information they miss by missing lectures.

"My little genius in 5 grade read Shakespeare "

Sure, anyone can read Shakespeare. Does little genius really comprehend it? Can that question even be answered since it is likely no one has ever bothered to properly evaluate said genius' comprehension of 1600's English language.

"this kid does math in its head"

Wonderful. Let's hope he is continuously challenged and allowed to progress and develop his mind, even if he is beyond the level of other kids.

"The really bright ones will consistently improve faster hence they get less help more homework."

Could be, but I know of a kid who excelled at English, and he received more homework. But the homework was at the same level as the rest of it, and he got bored. He asked for more advanced material, and was denied because he might get too far ahead of his classmates.

I sit on PhD evaluation committees, and monitor progress of individual candidates. I am not alone in seeing those candidates who are essentially not up to the task (to make long stories short). My job is to identify problems, and oh, there are problems. But do you think the system can accommodate any notion of "problems"?? No way. Does ANY protocol exist to act as some sort of correction mechanism? No. The whole system is only geared to the assumption that the student is performing up to spec. And because there is no correction mechanism, nor a will to create one, the push is to get the student through, at any cost. That way the department gets their money and the student gets their degree, earned, or, more often, not earned.

In my mind, this is a failed system, where a student is given an artificial impression that they are on track, as the precious institution directs, when they clearly aren't. How does it help anyone to pretend to them they are expert in some science, when in fact they are incapable? Somehow, in Sweden, someone who has no chemistry background is permitted to do a PhD in chemistry! WTF? And oh is it expensive. And then upon review, it is exposed that the work performed, has no chemistry content it, the student, with straight face, says (in front of her advisor, and the committee) well, I don't have a chemistry background, so I have trouble when I come to the chemistry things.

Absolutely unreal! This would not be possible in any other country, even if students would have the means to foot the bill themselves. This goes quite beyond any kind of rubber stamping I have seen anywhere.

But hey, that's OK. I guess this kind of education inflation has become common practice in Sweden, which offers officially dedicated "emergency" services, for Swedish PhD graduates who feel like the frauds they are, because their lack of ability is no longer contained, but rather starkly exposed, after entering the work force.

unsure.gif

Posted by: get_a_lawyer 28.May.2016, 11:28 AM

I think the problem with Swedish discipline in schools is that they have taken the ideology of 'free play, child-led' without the 'adult-supported' and 'scaffolding' structure and routines that are needed alongside it.

I am agast at the lack of any real 'learning' at my son's kommunal dagis.

And when I show them what my son was learning, through play with adult 'scaffolding', at his foreign pre-school, they say ' we used to do that, but no longer have the resources'.

So kids get free for all on iPad and board games without any meaningful adult guidance, across both academic and 'social-emotional' learning.

Its not evidence-based, its an ideology.

One that clearly hasn't worked.

It will take a long time to turn this sinking ship around...board at your own risk.

Posted by: littleviking 28.May.2016, 03:53 PM

Get a layer you maybe should think things through before talking.
Most dagis dont have more then 2 3 tablets which are the teachers not the children's in which they record information and at best they show some stuff to the kids. All educational stuff in Sweden that is used by Skolverket with very little exception are apple based meaning a huge cost, so very little have at a daycare level.
The swedish systems is very close to the finnish one and help kids with much more.
For your kids development is more important that it knows how to socially interact, how to play work with others, they learn to have some independence and self confidence. This is achieved by letting these kids choose what they want to do, if they want to nap they can nap, if they want to dig in the ground to see what is there they can do that.
Learning through play is the way kids learn more stuff then in a foreign daycare or even school.
If you forced your child to do what you want or a teacher wants and dont give a crap you child will never have an opinion, it will never be able to take a decision nor will it develop hobby or even learn anything because it will hate school.
Children in most EU countries are forced to do a lot of stuff from dagis and they end up hating school and very little end up being able to be creative or think outside the box.
There is very many studies done on this type of education and more and more countries are implementing this type of education.
I have be a substitute for daycare for 2 years and i have been in very many and i have seen the difference that exist between swedish taught children and foreign taught children.
Your child need social skills which it will never develop if you force a child to learn strictly in a formal environment. Children learn though play, if they dont play while they are children and have little to no responsibilities when should they since adults make such a big deal if as an adult you want to play are treated like a retard.

You underestimate your child and you overestimate general traditional education.
When you start making your kid do homework and try and make it learn faster thing you are actually making its life harder. All the kids that are pushed hard into learning end up burning out, there are lots of studies on this.
This is one of the things you are taught in pedagogical studies.
You as a parent have the job of explaining and learning your child what consequences come from its actions, beside loving it and protecting it. You are supposed to be there if you child asks for help and help it be creative and to learn things from every where it is.
There is a reason why being a mom or a dad is not enough to be a daycare teacher.

Posted by: Bsmith 28.May.2016, 05:23 PM

The best educational model I have witnessed is when I was taking martial arts.

In this system, every students starts as a white belt (beginner) no matter their age. Once you have mastered the techniques at that level you are tested, and if you pass, you advance to the next level. No social promotion. The overall class is taught by the sensei (master teacher) however the higher belts work with the lower belts and, as such, continue to work on the lower level techniques and perfect them. Strict discipline is maintained. For example, if you are late to class, you are immediately required to do push ups. If you lose control of your emotions during a sparing session and cause harm to your opponent, you most likely are to be kicked out of the class, perhaps permanently.

Posted by: Gjeebes 28.May.2016, 06:21 PM

"Learning through play is the way kids learn more stuff then in a foreign daycare or even school.
If you forced your child to do what you want or a teacher wants and dont give a crap you child will never have an opinion, it will never be able to take a decision nor will it develop hobby or even learn anything because it will hate school."

Well, if you have anything to do with "education + children" it is truly no surprise what is happening to education in Sweden.

For an educator, you seem to have an extremist and narrow view of things. Most of your arguments have little substance, and can be summed up by allowing children to make childlike decisions without guidance from hateful, harm doers, like parents and real teachers who know the value of structure.

It is no wonder that your products are overwhelmed by the time they have been grade inflated and enter uni. Do you have any proof for your emotional claims? Likely not since in Sweden it is only the ideology that matters, not how it actually works out in reality.

Let's just wait for the next PISA scores, shall we, oh mighty educator?

And in the meantime, you go ahead and waste precious learning time allowing kids to dig holes in the ground, since surely that is a required skill in Sweden, where after the hole has been dug, people can proceed to stick their head in, and keep it there.

Posted by: littleviking 28.May.2016, 09:14 PM

You should go and tell all the ppl that did studies on education and all the people that actually bother to be a proper teacher that and see what happens

As for the kiddies i have had in the last year as an english teacher i can say that now on the nationell prov out of 120 kiddies i have i have 50 that got the maximum score, 40 that got 80-95% and 30 that varied, out of this 30 i have 20 children with special needs, lowest score was 65% for a child with severe Adhd and dyslexia and the highest score of the 30 kiddies under 80% was 78%.

And these grades are not marked by me, since its always a committee. None of my kiddies get graded only by me since i don't have my license yet. And all my final year of high-school kiddies which i took this year over have gotten very high score in the högskolprov.
So for my kiddies i doesn't the pisa test in english will be a problem. Most also have taken either a TOEFL or a Cambridge test for studies abroad.

If every one would study at a university level the economy wouldn't not function first and foremost. There are already more highly educated ppl than jobs available. Not all ppl are interested or gifted enough to study at that level.
Secondly i believe children should be guided to reach their full potential, if they think they can be a doctor and they have the skills they should be encouraged and helped, if a child would like to be a plumber the same should apply. There has always been a discrimination against the "lower class" or the working class in which if you dont have a uni degree or money your are nothing which is very wrong. The economy need people that will work, not managers everywhere.

lets discuss if you dont like swedish education other systems in which everyone tried to get a university degree and never uses it.
My arguments came from lots of scientific studies which were not done in the corner deli by drunken sailors. The education of both children and adults has been studied for very many years both by scientists and psychologists and psychiatrists. And we are not talking about 2 3 studies but by thousands of studies. When s shrinks get teenage kids burned out or psych wards get teenagers trying to kill themselves because they couldn't cope with the constant competition and demands from the people around them, i would say they know better then you.
I always loved how ppl know better then ppl that have studied that their entire life or ppl that actually work in the system. (Like the geniuses that know better then doctors, and i mean in general not in Sweden)

The fact that teachers dont apply all this knowledge has very much to do with their own beliefs or they just dont care, or they are feed up of having to discipline your kids because you are a lousy parents and don't care to set boundaries to children, which is a very big trend now.
Education they get from school but boundaries come from home.

Posted by: smullyan 28.May.2016, 11:00 PM

I mean this with all due respect littleviking as I have a tremendous respect for teachers but if you are the one teaching the English classes then these kids are in a bit of trouble. Its obvious English is not your mother tongue but your spelling and sentence structure is horrible. I don't mean just a little bit bad but downright dreadful. If you are truly an English teacher I suggest taking some extra training. Once again, with all due respect.

Now, as for the Swedish education system I think we can all agree it is not what it used to be. This is a fact that can't be debated, the PISA scores don't lie. Sweden has fallen further in the rankings than any other western nation, that is a 100% verifiable fact. There are schools in Sweden at this very moment where less than 20% of a whole years class manage to pass all of their courses. Can you just think about that for a minute? We live in one of the wealthiest western countries with some of the most amazing options open to children and the current system is letting them down. I'm sorry littleviking but these are facts. This ideology that is being pursued in Sweden coupled with not pushing hard enough for talented children to become teachers will slowly erode this country from within.

Posted by: Gjeebes 29.May.2016, 07:26 AM

In defence of littleviking, I would like to remind us that this is an online "forum", not a high impact journal. So it could just be that s/he does not bother wasting time to make everything perfect (I know I don't).

Secondly, I think s/he is probably a good person with good intentions who has unfortunately bought into a flawed (yet "beautiful") ideology. Such is the way with many Swedes. And that is likely required in order to continue teaching in Swedish schools, which must be the epicentre of state espoused dogma and "command central" for the herd (you know, dishing out the restrictive Swedish styled conformity). Try to break out of that mould and it is likely the end of your teaching career in Sweden (you know, where thinking for yourself is pretty much taboo).

I agree that education is also not great in other countries, but it isn't because the kids aren't allowed to have a cookie whenever they don't feel like rolling up their sleeves and getting down to learning. It often comes down to money, and a general lack of resources (combined with poor parenting).

What makes me sad is that this little Swedish experiment (because let's face it, it is nothing more than that) is going to backfire (is already backfiring), and all those little ones who will grow up without a "clue", will think they are ahead of the world (because that is what they will be told). Cult members have no awareness that they have been brainwashed, right?

If the Swedish model worked, then how does it explain the PISA scores, which littleviking doesn't seem to want to get too close to (for obvious reasons).

I remember reading the excuses, such as, "oh, our kids didn't take the PISA exams seriously really". Perhaps the exam cut in to "hole digging time" or "there, there, have a cookie" time?

This gem came out at around the same time private (for profit) schools in Sweden were caught grade inflating to boost ratings to attract new customers (I mean students). When a principal was asked why their school had some of the highest (internally) ranked students who performed amongst the poorest in the country (according to the national exams), his response was, "oh, well you don't want to make relative comparisons to our students using the national exam scores".

Um, ya, you do, as that is the whole purpose of national exams, right?

So, good luck Sweden! The problems are so huge and come from so many different angles, that it is almost impossible to keep track of their origins. And then, just factor some Swedish administrators into the mix, who like to rearrange things beyond recognition, every 3-6 months, thereby making it impossible to even compare the ever changing "new" system to the previous one, which in turn makes it almost impossible to track problems, and heaven forbid, correct them.

Posted by: littleviking 29.May.2016, 10:03 AM

well my English skills on an academic level are the what i bother to write from a tiny phone keyboard, and my last TOEFL test i got 119 out of 120 so i would say that is more qualifying then you think.
I personally can only speak for my students and my school, i dont care about pisa testing since they are not prepared for those tests, like in many other countries, and mostly because the children have their focus on other stuff. i know at least a couple countries that prepare the kids at school for the tests, i even know schools that have tried faking or helping kids cheat so they get higher score.
Instead of PISA testing i would more be worried that teachers are understaffed and not very motivated.(mostly by the fact that kids have no respect and the teachers get no authority ).
Education and good manners develop if parents do their job as well not just the teachers.

Yes the swedish system has some work to be done but its is the closest to the Finnish one which has the best results, and i have had a couple of months in teacher exchange program in which i worked with their kiddies and they with our and the only difference i see is in how the children are raised and how much the teachers are motivated. And yes it was in the Swedish speaking part.
The idea is very good the problem is implementing it, and again if parents have no rules and basic requirements from their kids, and i dont mean academically here.

Kids these days are let by there parents to pick everything from what they eat to when they go to bed, and that is not okay.
Kids have to be helped according to their skills and not try and make a doctor out of each and one of them.
its one thing to let them do what they want to play with and encouraging them to try new things and discover what their skills and hobbies are. But a completely different thing when ppl start making there kids learn at dagis age to do math and read and write and have homework.
In most dagis kids eat almost the same thing, the only difference is if they have some food allergy or intolerance to lactose.
If they eat they eat if not they dont eat or get later a sandwich, there is no cookies in dagis or desserts , the only sweet thing they get is an on the spot made smoothie with nothing else then fruit and either milk or some special "milk" that is varied by what kids are allergic to, most avoid having milk made out of nuts at all even if no one has any allergy.

When i worked at dagis level most kids were dropped of and pick up and after that the parents took them home washed them feed them and put them to bed with little to no proper interaction because it was easy.
My first students almost 2 years ago in school level shocked me. I had first grader that couldnt tie there own shoe laces and didnt know how to use a fork and knife, or that didnt knew how to even open a book.

I believe its wrong to leave kids from day one of birth with a phone and tablet all the time. Its one think if you as a parent put on some cartoons on a tablet or laptop to keep them occupied while you do stuff in the same room and another when you give them free range.

Posted by: Laurelia 29.May.2016, 10:18 AM

As someone who worked in a primary school in the UK before coming here and has literally just watched some amazing grade six children break under the pressure of the SATs exams I am SO pleased my children don't go through similar in Sweden!
However, I am aware we have a pretty good local school and that's not the same throughout the country.
One thing that bugs me though is lack of speed in anything. E.G. if I call the principal about something it takes forever to hear from them and the same amount of forever for anything to be put in place, but I wonder if that's my own hang-ups on 'school time' being a finite amount and 'X, Y, Z MUST be done this year or it won't get done' since UK schools move students up to the next year every September regardless of ability.

Posted by: smullyan 29.May.2016, 12:39 PM

Ok, littleviking I will give you the benefit of the doubt, I personally know the pain of typing on small mobile keyboards with my rather large fingers. That aside I have some comments.

"i would more be worried that teachers are understaffed and not very motivated.(mostly by the fact that kids have no respect and the teachers get no authority )."

I couldn't agree more, the teacher problem needs to become priority number one immediately. Unfortunately under the worsening current system a new feedback loop has been created whereby as the situation deteriorates further those with both the talent and the desire to teach become less likely to do so. For instance, my wife's little sister just entered university this previous fall. Earlier last year we were having a big family dinner and over the course of two hours I watched her family systematically take turns talking her out of becoming a teacher citing low earnings, outrageous classroom conditions and the lack of upward mobility as key reasons. This sweet girl has had in mind to be a teacher for quite some years, now she is in the business school studying economics instead.

"Yes the swedish system has some work to be done but its is the closest to the Finnish one which has the best results,"

I will bow to your expertise here but from what I do know teachers in Finland are paid a very decent salary and there are programs set up specifically to filter talented children into teaching. Both of these major points are lacking under the Swedish model. I would also conjecture that Finland's stricter immigration policies haven't forcibly shifted the need to cut so many corners as in Sweden.

"The idea is very good the problem is implementing it, and again if parents have no rules and basic requirements from their kids, and i dont mean academically here.

Kids these days are let by there parents to pick everything from what they eat to when they go to bed, and that is not okay."


These are very sweeping generalizations and anecdotally I have yet to see either of these in reality. Are we more relaxed than the previous generation? Sure, I would agree with that but I have yet to see a parent that has no basic requirement of their child or allow them to do whatever they want whenever they want (although I am sure some outliers do exist). Do I think some parents in Sweden allow their kids to get away with to much? Yes, I would agree with that statement as well. I would say first and foremost though that modern parents have far more tools at our disposal for raising our kids than any previous generation and I do have high hopes for the next generation, perhaps that is why I care so much about the diluting of their education as I see such incredible potential.

"Kids have to be helped according to their skills and not try and make a doctor out of each and one of them. "


And I must ask, who decides what a child's skills are? You say the PISA tests aren't a good indication of a child's skills so I must ask, what is? Who is qualified to make this judgement call? I believe that every child has the right to a high quality education and every child should have the opportunity to aim high if they so choose. You say that

"If every one would study at a university level the economy wouldn't not function first and foremost. There are already more highly educated ppl than jobs available. Not all ppl are interested or gifted enough to study at that level."

and I say to you bullcrap. Every child should have the opportunity to gain a good education. Anecdotally I will say that personally I went through the IB programme for high school in Canada. Every single young person in that programme was set up with a high quality education and the ability to apply to top universities around the world. When I look at my graduating class from over a dozen years ago people have gone into a wide swath of careers, from lawyers and doctors to entrepreneurs, carpenters and hotel owners. What we all had in common at the conclusion of our studies was a strong base of knowledge about the world and a very positive outlook on life. What I am trying to say is that just because every child receives a high quality education does not mean they will all pursue the path of the doctor or some PhD level of studies and "overburden" the system. Giving a child a high quality education gives them the freedom and excitement to meet life head on and discover what it is they want to do to contribute to humanity.

"My arguments came from lots of scientific studies which were not done in the corner deli by drunken sailors. The education of both children and adults has been studied for very many years both by scientists and psychologists and psychiatrists. And we are not talking about 2 3 studies but by thousands of studies. When s shrinks get teenage kids burned out or psych wards get teenagers trying to kill themselves because they couldn't cope with the constant competition and demands from the people around them, i would say they know better then you."

If you have some references you would like to share I would love to take a look. One thing I have noticed in Sweden is that whenever there is some kind of problem with a child learning (very often due to sheer laziness or apathy as a result of the Swedish model) many are quick to jump on the psychology train (this does not mean I believe that there are not children with actual learning disorders). All children need to be pushed at some point, pushing doesn't need to be rough but can be highly educational as it's incredibly important for all human beings to learn how to overcome adversity just as it's incredibly important for all babies to learn how to self-soothe themselves to sleep at night from an early age. When children are pushed into running away from issues in life they become adults living under the same paradigm.

Among Swedish adults they even have a saying "hitting the wall". While only in my early 30's over the past decade in Sweden I have seen roughly 25% of my wife's friends "hit the wall" and go on extended sick leave. This entails taking some months off, living off the system for free and pretending as if one never need worry about working again. This is an epidemic among adults in Sweden. A model that doesn't teach children to overcome adversity creates adults that feel as if they have the right to perpetually run away from life's problems and be protected, in fact rewarded by the State.

"I always loved how ppl know better then ppl that have studied that their entire life or ppl that actually work in the system. (Like the geniuses that know better then doctors, and i mean in general not in Sweden)"

I won't say that I know better but as a rather concerned parent I feel I have a vested interest in the outcome. My field is mathematics and I can say that after visiting a number of schools and talking with many teachers that don't even have an A-level education in mathematics that are currently working as maths teachers I can't help but think of you as delusional. Perhaps ideologically the model would in fact be the grand wonder it's meant to be. Unfortunately the reality is that the system is broken, not just in a 'hey we can put a bit of superglue on it' broken but full-on smashed on the ground need to buy a new one kind of broken.

"The fact that teachers dont apply all this knowledge has very much to do with their own beliefs or they just dont care, or they are feed up of having to discipline your kids because you are a lousy parents and don't care to set boundaries to children, which is a very big trend now. "

I'm sorry but the failings of the educational system is not the fault of parents, this is simply not true. The model is broken and getting worse. Lack of teachers, loose immigration policy, a fragmented educational system and no concrete plan to remedy any of it is the problem.

Posted by: get_a_lawyer 29.May.2016, 12:59 PM

I think there is a third way between stressful exams that don't teach lifelong love and genuine motivation for education/problem-solving and the Swedish 'laissez-faire' way, which is not efficacious in that respect either.

Children must learn that any problem, be it academic or in building a house, one will come across problem after problem. Lowering the bar won't equip them with the required skill of 'micro-tenacity' that enables them to discover a new drug or program a robot.

Obviously elevating teachers to a higher level in society, with higher pay, is a solution.

Finland may be the way. Although proper due-diligence needs to be done before declaring Finland as the 'answer':
http://www.dn.se/debatt/finland-ar-inget-foredome-skolframgangarna-feltolkas/

The OECD report seems quite wishy-washy and doesn't have strong policy recommendations.

I

Posted by: yet another brit 30.May.2016, 11:13 AM

I think it is easy to look at the Swedish system and see its failings, of which there are a number. Especially with my own prism. The Swedish system is there to bring everyone up to the same common denominator ("godkänd is good enough"). It isn't there to bring out the best in every individual...which some parents get, and some don't. The system also works such that the authority of the individual teacher seems to be very important in how the class runs. As is the makeup of the class, kids being little bastards most of the time. There is a reason we don't let them vote or have real guns, after all.

So if you come here and expect your kids to be pushed to the max of their individual capacity - which is of course, unlimited in the eyes of the doting parent - then unless you get really lucky it won't happen without you, the parent, making it happen. If on the other hand, you have a kid that needs extra help due to some kind of developmental or other pathology - and yes, ADHD is a real thing, even if it is over diagnosed - then you may be better off in Sweden. Certainly better than being thrown on the scrapheap because you failed your 11-plus/SATS/GCSEs...

Somewhere I read that the job of the Swedish system is to bash the round kids into a square hole made up of four sides - social democracy, friluftsfrämjendet, temperance and Lutheranism... I wish I could remember where I read that! It's telling that one of those can't be concisely translated. Mens sana in corpore sano, maybe.

I work with many of what you might call the "upper end" products of the Swedish system - junior scientists and doctors. "Junior" in this context is a relative description, of course. But they are basically as good as anywhere else in the world, so it can/does work out in the end. Friends of mine in other businesses tell me the same is true in law, engineering, IT. The system does foster a few duds, but then so do the UK & US (I can assure you).

Posted by: Laurelia 30.May.2016, 11:34 AM

QUOTE (yet another brit @ 30.May.2016, 11:13 AM) *
So if you come here and expect your kids to be pushed to the max of their individual capacity - which is of course, unlimited in the eyes of the doting parent - then unless you get really lucky it won't happen without you, the parent, making it happen. If on the other hand, you have a kid that needs extra help due to some kind of developmental or other pathology - and yes, ADHD is a real thing, even if it is over diagnosed - then you may be better off in Sweden. Certainly better than being thrown on the scrapheap because you failed your 11-plus/SATS/GCSEs...


Most definitely. My daughter has learning disabilities and the Swedish school system works much better for her than the British did. In UK, for example, she was told that her physical issues with handwriting (dyspraxic with dyslexic tendencies and lefthanded to boot!) would have to be 'got over as everyone in the real world uses pens and won't make allowances for you'. Erm, ok? I rarely write anything by hand at work! This insistence on using fountain pens was ridiculous and she spent more time working on her presentation in maths than actual maths (which is where her dyslexia tends to make itself known).
Here, however, she has been told in no uncertain terms that it's not a problem and is delaying start of gymnasiet for a year to ensure her Swedish and Maths are up to scratch and she can start on a level playing field. In the UK she'd have been made to sit her GCSEs and written off.

Both of my sons on the other hand find learning as easy as breathing and sit happily in the top % of their classes without being pushed. Personally, I would much rather this way than the other. It is important all children reach a certain standard and aren't left behind while teachers are trying to cultivate little geniuses. As I told my husband recently when I was trying to get hold of the school about something and they weren't responding quickly "OUR child is OUR priority." As parents it's OUR responsibility to help our children excel, not the school's - they are there to provide a standard education. And, tbf, it's perfectly easy, as a parent, to introduce extra work at home for those children that are excelling - there are a gazillion books/websites out there to supplement learning.

Posted by: Gjeebes 30.May.2016, 03:43 PM

" It is important all children reach a certain standard and aren't left behind while teachers are trying to cultivate little geniuses."

Of course, was that even in question, at all, on this thread? How does nurturing "little geniuses" somehow automatically imply, in any way, anyone else should be left behind as a result? That's just a non-argument.

I find it quite bizarre the weird presumptions people come to on this topic. As if somehow having a student realise their potential, whatever that may be, is some kind of f'over to the child, and as if it must certainly be brought upon as some sort of punishment. Oh and let's not forget the obligatory, "all others are now doomed to be left behind".

If a wee child who wants to ride a bike, keeps falling off, do you say, oh, ok, you will never ride a bike, that's fine...or, do you encourage them by saying keep at it, don't worry, you can do it? And by working on that, with the child eventually succeeding, have you somehow magically left behind all other children, whom still cannot ride a bike? That way of thinking makes no sense whatsoever! Is helping the child to succeed just a disguised punishment? Obviously not, but this seems to be the mentality in Sweden!

As for uni, sure, not everyone is meant for it, no problem. And as it is, there are far too many graduates, at least at the PhD level. But if you do go to uni, it shouldn't be some kind of watered down version of high-school, since that is not its purpose. And if it is, you are being robbed, and being given a false sense of competitiveness.

Most students I see, put as little effort into their studies as possible, and then complain when they don't get what they feel entitled to have. Not all are like this, of course, but many are. It is actually like dealing with high-school mentality children, complete with angry parents visiting to influence their child's graded performance.

Posted by: get_a_lawyer 30.May.2016, 06:44 PM

As for the Swedish system promoting equity, yes, that may be a goal, but it is not an outcome (at least not relative to other countries, let's not just compare to the UK here):

"The Swedish system is there to bring everyone up to the same common denominator ("godkänd is good enough"). "

Please take a look at Figure 1.8 in this report:
http://www.oecd.org/edu/school/Improving-Schools-in-Sweden.pdf

Sweden is worse than Estonia, Finland, Japan, Korea and Canada (note Canada is a multi-cultural society, so equality cannot be explained through cultural homogeneity) in a ranking of equality AND worse in mathematics performance.

One may argue that 'at least no-one is left behind', but that is not what the PISA data is telling us. Students are being left behind, both the exceptional (and highly-motivated) and the ones who are not. They are not bringing everyone up to the same low goal.

Take a look at the TIMSS results for maths:
http://timssandpirls.bc.edu/timss2011/downloads/T11_IR_Mathematics_FullBook.pdf


Page 63, Exhibit 1.8 for Sweden. The worrying problem for Sweden is that the results have shown a significant decline (in maths) from 1995 to 2011.

Posted by: Gjeebes 30.May.2016, 08:06 PM

QUOTE (get_a_lawyer @ 30.May.2016, 05:44 PM) *
As for the Swedish system promoting equity, yes, that may be a goal, but it is not an outcome (at least not relative to other countries, let's not just compare to the UK here):

"The Swedish system is there to bring everyone up to the same common denominator ("godkänd is good enough"). "

Please take a look at Figure 1.8 in this report:
http://www.oecd.org/edu/school/Improving-Schools-in-Sweden.pdf

Sweden is worse than Estonia, Finland, Japan, Korea and Canada (note Canada is a multi-cultural society, so equality cannot be explained through cultural homogeneity) in a ranking of equality AND worse in mathematics performance.

One may argue that 'at least no-one is left behind', but that is not what the PISA data is telling us. Students are being left behind, both the exceptional (and highly-motivated) and the ones who are not. They are not bringing everyone up to the same low goal.

Take a look at the TIMSS results for maths:
http://timssandpirls.bc.edu/timss2011/downloads/T11_IR_Mathematics_FullBook.pdf


Page 63, Exhibit 1.8 for Sweden. The worrying problem for Sweden is that the results have shown a significant decline (in maths) from 1995 to 2011.

Well, ya, and there's that, which just makes the whole story even sadder.

But you know, the former "Eastern-bloc" nations still thought the West was crap, while they waited 2 days for a loaf of bread...so I am guessing things will have to slide all the way to the bottom in Meatballia, before anyone will listen to common sense.

Posted by: morningstar 25.Feb.2018, 03:58 PM

I have just moved to Sweden. I do not speak Swedish yet but I am being offered the chance to teach English in Northern Sweden's rural areas.

What are the downsides to being a teacher in Sweden?

What are the good sides to being a teacher in Sweden?

I would really like to know so that I can make an informed decision.

Thanks in advance to anyone who replies.

Posted by: intrepidfox 25.Feb.2018, 06:15 PM

QUOTE (morningstar @ 25.Feb.2018, 03:58 PM) *
I have just moved to Sweden. I do not speak Swedish yet but I am being offered the chance to teach English in Northern Sweden's rural areas.

What are the downsides to being a teacher in Sweden?

What are the good sides to being a teacher in Sweden?

I would really like to know so that I can make an informed decision.

Thanks in advance to anyone who replies.


2 conflicting posts. first you have lived here 3 years and then just moved here

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