The Local is not responsible for content posted by users.
2 Pages V  < 1 2   Reply to this topic

Social democracy on the rise!

*Arca*
post 11.Mar.2006, 12:33 PM
Post #16


QUOTE (Aaron_in_berlin)
It doesn't matter what can be proven or what I believe. Venezuela just (with FARC) attempted in Columbia to "bring democracy" or was it to oust a dictator.
[...]
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Publ...7yckaw.asp?pg=2

The Weekly Standard.. so you're digging deep in neo-con sources to find arguments now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weekly_Standard

Here's a less biased record of events:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodrigo_Granda_affair

Tell me, why is it that an American democrat who moved to Berlin for political reasons ends up arguing the neo-con side of matters? It's not the first time - it's starting to look like a trend.

Is it the conflict between patriotism and values again? You keep trying to turn this thread into a debate over my opinion of the US. It looks more and more like you are begging for a rematch after that whipping I gave you on US foreign policy. biggrin.gif Sorry, not giving one...
Go to the top of the page
+
*Nico aka the boy wonder*
post 11.Mar.2006, 12:45 PM
Post #17


Aaron.. Seriously.. you got to stop reading the weekly standard dude.. And really stop quoting or providing links to it when trying to prove your point.. I know your not a neo-con but those times you look like one..

William Kristol founded weekly standard and is pretty biased.

But then again Arca!. So is Counterpunch i suppouse.
Go to the top of the page
+
Alice Is Back
post 11.Mar.2006, 12:45 PM
Post #18
Joined: 15.Jan.2006

QUOTE (Arca)
You're measuring military strength in number of reservists? You have to be kidding me. Sweden with it's "allmän värnplikt" would be a serious force in Europe then.


As you can see Chavez is seriously expanding the military, but being pro-military as you are I can understood

QUOTE (Arca)
Tell me again why you put so much credibility in that exit poll by the opposition...

the poll was done by a US agency, not by the opposition

QUOTE (Arca)
Caught on tape by Irish journalissts who themselves are arguing against the opposition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_co...ish_documentary


there you go even better proof that anti-chavez people were shot in cold blood
QUOTE (Arca)
Noone is denying that. A lot more power is given to the people as well. Did you read that long article I referred to?


what will no checks on his power I doubt that :roll:

QUOTE (Arca)
Your arguments have just not been convincing. You simply swallow the neo-con point of view on this matter and presume that all reform is always a bad thing. Venezuela was a very corrupt country and yes, there's a peaceful revolution taking place. Actions speak louder than words and the overwhelming impression so far is that Chavez has the best intentions for the people in mind.


Arca you are so funny I bring up arguements and you just blow them off like nothing!! Any arguement I bring up is "from the opposition" and therefore fill of poop I guess. Like they are all liers and thiefs. You know this is the same arguement the Communists used to defend Stalin: well only Stalin's opposition will complain about the gulag so their arguements are not valid. And it is a fact he tried to break up the unions.

QUOTE (Arca)
What same arguments? I'm beginning to suspect you have swallowed the neo-con argument that the invasion of Iraq was really a defensive action.


where did I say that i support the war, in iraq, are you putting words in my mouth again??
Go to the top of the page
+
Alice Is Back
post 11.Mar.2006, 12:58 PM
Post #19
Joined: 15.Jan.2006

QUOTE (Arca)
The Weekly Standard.. so you're digging deep in neo-con sources to find arguments now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weekly_Standard

Here's a less biased record of events:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodrigo_Granda_affair


that is one scandal in Chavez supporting FARC, here are some more:

http://www.upi.com/inc/view.php?StoryID=20...08-075735-2592r

QUOTE (Arca)
Tell me, why is it that an American democrat who moved to Berlin for political reasons ends up arguing the neo-con side of matters? It's not the first time - it's starting to look like a trend.

Is it the conflict between patriotism and values again? You keep trying to turn this thread into a debate over my opinion of the US. It looks more and more like you are begging for a rematch after that whipping I gave you on US foreign policy. biggrin.gif Sorry, not giving one...


well I oppose dictators and wars of opression everywhere. You support Chavez who support terrorism in Columbia and who supports Mugabe in Africa. Mugabe great guy right??

I bring in the States to show you are a hyprcrite, for flip-flopping
Go to the top of the page
+
The Swede
post 12.Mar.2006, 04:55 AM
Post #20
Joined: 10.Feb.2006

QUOTE (Arca)
Sweden didn't have any reason to believe the Soviet Union would invade us. Still, that minute risk is what our defense was mainly built for. Only recently, after the Soviet Union collapsed and their territory shrunk, did Sweden cut down on defense substantially. That's because the risk is zero in the coming couple of decades.


I'm calling bullsh*t - that my friend is the typical mindset of a naive Swede. The threat can become very real within a decade or so if Russia continues "developing" the way it is.

The Cold War never truly ended.
Go to the top of the page
+
*Nico aka the boy wonder*
post 12.Mar.2006, 11:41 AM
Post #21


QUOTE (The Swede)
I'm calling bullsh*t - that my friend is the typical mindset of a naive Swede. The threat can become very real within a decade or so if Russia continues "developing" the way it is.

The Cold War never truly ended.


Bullsh*t or not.. i dont think arca is giving his oppinion here.. that is still the reason for cutting down on our defence whatever you or others feel its right or wrong is hardly important in this discussion now is it?
Go to the top of the page
+
*Arca*
post 12.Mar.2006, 12:15 PM
Post #22


[quote=Aaron_in_berlin]As you can see Chavez is seriously expanding the military, but being pro-military as you are I can understood[/quote]
The only hypocracy here is what you dream up of me in your head. I've never been a pacifist (and by pacifist I refer to the extreme point of view that violence is never accepted under any circumstance). The right to self defense is something all democratic states recognize. You still have not replied to the fact that Venezuela's military spending is less than Sweden's.

[quote=Arca]Noone is denying that. A lot more power is given to the people as well. Did you read that long article I referred to?[/quote]

what will no checks on his power I doubt that :roll:[/quote]
Sorry, I don't know what you're saying. Your misspellings are increasing at an alarming rate. Are you upset?

[quote=Wikipedia]Later, on December 3, 2000, local elections and a referendum were held. The referendum, backed by Chávez, proposed a law that would force Venezuela's labor unions to hold state-monitored elections. The referendum was widely condemned by international labor organizations?including the International Labour Organization ? as undue government interference in internal union matters; these organizations threatened to apply sanctions on Venezuela.[28][/quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez[/quote]
How about we settle one point before you bombard me with more? For some reason it's ok for you to dodge my questions and my references without comment, and just move on to something else. You blew of that little thing about international monitors?

[quote=Arca]What same arguments? I'm beginning to suspect you have swallowed the neo-con argument that the invasion of Iraq was really a defensive action.[/quote]

where did I say that i support the war, in iraq, are you putting words in my mouth again??[/quote]
You try to draw parallels between my support for self-defense and my opposition to the US foreign policy of military intervention. That's where you claim hypocracy. So I can only conclude that in your mind, US conducting operations abroad is a kind of self-defense. To me they're two very different things.
Go to the top of the page
+
*Arca*
post 12.Mar.2006, 12:22 PM
Post #23


QUOTE (The Swede)
I'm calling bullsh*t - that my friend is the typical mindset of a naive Swede. The threat can become very real within a decade or so if Russia continues "developing" the way it is.

The Cold War never truly ended.

That may be true. I'm merely paraphrasing Sweden's official reasoning behind our defense policies.

Edit: Uh, right, what Nico said. :wink:
Go to the top of the page
+
The Swede
post 12.Mar.2006, 02:43 PM
Post #24
Joined: 10.Feb.2006

QUOTE (Nico)
Bullsh*t or not.. i dont think arca is giving his oppinion here.. that is still the reason for cutting down on our defence whatever you or others feel its right or wrong is hardly important in this discussion now is it?


Can't blame a man for merely wanting to spread his wisdom, no harm shed.

smile.gif
Go to the top of the page
+
Alice Is Back
post 12.Mar.2006, 11:13 PM
Post #25
Joined: 15.Jan.2006

QUOTE (Arca)
The only hypocracy here is what you dream up of me in your head. I've never been a pacifist (and by pacifist I refer to the extreme point of view that violence is never accepted under any circumstance). The right to self defense is something all democratic states recognize. You still have not replied to the fact that Venezuela's military spending is less than Sweden's.


You still support increasing ths size of the military. Chavez wants 2mil active soldiers and reservists, much more than Sweden has.

QUOTE (Arca)
Your opinion, not the Irish crew's opinion.


QUOTE (Arca)
Sorry, I don't know what you're saying. Your misspellings are increasing at an alarming rate. Are you upset?


The president's powers were increated clearly by the constitution. There is no denying this.

QUOTE (Arca)
The opposition isn't exactly the most trustworthy bunch of people. They have tried any and all means to overthrow Chavez, including illegal and violent means. Just a month ago, their case to the ICC was rejected:

The ICC was to determine if "crimes against humanity" were committed. It is claer crimes against humanity have been commited, even if Chavez is hardly democratic.

Anyway should we ignore what the opposition claims becasue it is the opposition. Should I claim "we should not trust what Arca says becasue he opposes bush?"


QUOTE (Arca)
How about we settle one point before you bombard me with more? For some reason it's ok for you to dodge my questions and my references without comment, and just move on to something else. You blew of that little thing about international monitors?


I have listed several problems I have. Here are some more:

->attempted coup in 1992
->support of Castro
->support of Mugabe
->human right abuses as reported by Amnesty International

QUOTE (Arca)
You try to draw parallels between my support for self-defense and my opposition to the US foreign policy of military intervention. That's where you claim hypocracy. So I can only conclude that in your mind, US conducting operations abroad is a kind of self-defense. To me they're two very different things.


Like I said Chavez has suppored FARC with weapons, hardly an act of self-defence...
Go to the top of the page
+
Alice Is Back
post 12.Mar.2006, 11:25 PM
Post #26
Joined: 15.Jan.2006

arca some more for you to chew on:

free press:

QUOTE
"By broadening laws that punish disrespect for government authorities, the Venezuelan government has flouted international human rights principles that protect free expression,? said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. ?While countries across Latin America are moving to repeal such laws, Venezuela has enacted further restrictions on the press that will shield officials from public scrutiny.?


http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/24/venezu10368.htm

seperation of powers:

QUOTE
?Five years ago, President Chávez?s supporters helped to enshrine the principle of judicial independence in a new democratic constitution,? said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. ?Now, by packing the country?s highest court, they are betraying that principle and degrading Venezuelan democracy.?


http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/12/14/venezu9864.htm

human right abuses:
QUOTE
Human Rights Watch does not take sides in the current political conflict in Venezuela. Our commitment is solely to the protection of fundamental human rights enshrined in international treaties such as the United Nations Convention against Torture and Other, Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and the American Convention on Human Rights, which categorically prohibit torture under any circumstances. As a party to both of these treaties, Venezuela has an obligation not only to prevent violations, but also to conduct thorough and impartial investigations, and to prosecute those found responsible for committing them.

Over the past several weeks, Human Rights Watch has collected testimony regarding alleged ill-treatment and torture that took place from February 27 until March 5. The cases described below are based on Human Rights Watch?s interviews with young people who were detained during the protests and, in one case, with a detainee?s parents. Venezuelan nongovernmental human rights groups have also documented similar abuses, as have press accounts based on interviews with former detainees. Altogether, the available information suggests a disturbing pattern of conduct that clearly violates international law enforcement standards.


http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/04/12/venezu8423.htm
Go to the top of the page
+
*Arca*
post 13.Mar.2006, 05:34 PM
Post #27


OMFG, I can't believe this guy. He keeps dodging and throwing whatever he can reach at me.

How about you read the entire text you reference? This is from http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/04/12/venezu8423.htm
QUOTE
The human rights ombudsman, Dr. Germán Mundaraín, has confirmed reports of ill-treatment and torture. Dr. Mundaraín told Human Rights Watch that his staff has visited all the detainees held in Caracas, and most of those held in the rest of the country, to assess their physical and mental health and collect information regarding the circumstances of their arrest and their treatment while in detention. He said his staff had received credible first-hand accounts of ill treatment of detainees in police stations, military installations, and government vehicles. The ombudsman?s preliminary report, published on March 25, states that ?the security forces were responsible for excesses in the use of force, possible arbitrary detentions, mistreatment and also, torture.? The report documents seven cases of torture and seventeen cases of alleged ill-treatment, in some cases listing the injuries noted in medical examinations.

We understand that the attorney general?s office is investigating the alleged mistreatment of detainees. The attorney general, Dr. Isaías Rodríguez, reports that his office is investigating nine cases. Dr. Gilberto Venere, the public ministry official conducting the investigations, told Human Rights Watch that they involve six of the La Planta detainees: Rodrigo Luis Alegrett Salazar, José Ramón Merlo Rojas, Heber Gustavo Prado, Angel Daviott, José Rafael Peralta Medina, and David Alejandro Amandaraín. Complaints filed by three adolescents that members of the National Guard tortured them after their arrest in Caracas on March 1 are also under investigation. Dr. Venere told Human Rights Watch that he had taken statements from the victims, ordered medical examinations, and is now trying to establish which officers participated in the arrest and custody of these detainees. He will question these officers once they are identified.

Just to clarify, since you never read the explanation of the new constitution and probably didn't understand the above; The human rights ombudsman and attorney general are two of the five governmental powers. The first is there to protect human rights, the other is there to prosecute citizen's violation of the law.

Anyway.. I think we've exhausted this thread the past four days. You had ample time to prove your point and all you had were opposition and US propaganda.

Here's a sunshine story about your new best pals. Read that and feel the warmth of having stood up for the wrong side, you fake democrat. How was it you put it? Oh, that's right: "DON'T EVER SHOW UP ON THIS BOARD AS A DOVE AGAIN, BECASUE THIS WILL MAKE YOU A HYPOCRITE"

QUOTE
Violence Needed Against Chavez, Venezuela Opposition Leader Says. Dictatorship Must Follow

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1320

If you have anything else after that, you can tell it to the British parliament:

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1912
Go to the top of the page
+
Alice Is Back
post 13.Mar.2006, 06:24 PM
Post #28
Joined: 15.Jan.2006

[quote=Arca]OMFG, I can't believe this guy. He keeps dodging and throwing whatever he can reach at me.[/quote]

yeah all those problems with Chavez, should I dig more up? I am a bit bored with Human Rights Watch, should I move on to Amnesty International?

[quote=Arca]
How about you read the entire text you reference? This is from http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/04/12/venezu8423.htm
[quote=Arca]
Just to clarify, since you never read the explanation of the new constitution and probably didn't understand the above; The human rights ombudsman and attorney general are two of the five governmental powers. The first is there to protect human rights, the other is there to prosecute citizen's violation of the law.

[/quote]

Oh the Human Right Watch article to the judical system. Did you see it? And you continue to deny that the constitution gives extra powers to hugo.

[quote=Arca]
Anyway.. I think we've exhausted this thread the past four days. You had ample time to prove your point and all you had were opposition and US propaganda.

[/quote]

I know anything I bring up is just opposition poop. It isn't worth anything next to your Chavez propaganda. I must concede.
[quote=Arca]
Here's a sunshine story about your new best pals. Read that and feel the warmth of having stood up for the wrong side, you fake democrat. How was it you put it? Oh, that's right: "DON'T EVER SHOW UP ON THIS BOARD AS A DOVE AGAIN, BECASUE THIS WILL MAKE YOU A HYPOCRITE"

[quote=Arca]
If you have anything else after that, you can tell it to the British parliament:

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1912[/quote]

Yes is this the same Brit Labour Party that marched into Iraq. I see where you are comming from now. laugh.gif laugh.gif

btw is that http://www.venezuelanalysis.com propoganda? I thought I was the only one to be allowed to use propaganda on this forum.
Go to the top of the page
+
Alice Is Back
post 13.Mar.2006, 06:41 PM
Post #29
Joined: 15.Jan.2006

hay arca all that support from the british parliament and then this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,,1706206,00.html

does hugo boy know who his friends are or what laugh.gif laugh.gif
Go to the top of the page
+

2 Pages V  < 1 2
Reply to this topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members: