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Sweden & Britain and winter weather

Differences in behaviour

Johno
post 23.Feb.2010, 05:17 PM
Post #16
Joined: 23.Jul.2008

UK weather forcasts are poorly presented. I prefer the ones where they actually give a % likelihood of precipitation like this one in the 10 day forecast http://foreca.mobi/index.php?l=102708365 and where wind chill/humidity is taken into account in the current conditions with the "feels like" lower figure.
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Rick Methven
post 23.Feb.2010, 05:20 PM
Post #17
Location: Linköping
Joined: 30.Nov.2005

QUOTE (kaze @ 23.Feb.2010, 03:50 PM) *
I definitely feel the difference.. I can walk around in 0 no problems here, its a warm day, but back home I'm freezing to death- and this is wearing exactly the same clothes.

It is not an urban myth at all the level that we feel the cold is down to humidity. This relates to what we perceive the temperature to be. At the moment The temperature here is -7 with 80% humidity and no wind. so the wind chill temperature is the same as the actual temperature. Gatwick Airport has a temperature of +2 97% humidity it is raining and there is a 4 m/s NE wind that gives a wind chill temperature of -3.

I remember leaving London one January morning in rain wind and temperature of +4 and flying to Lulea where it was -25 but no wind and very low humidity. Same clothes but I felt warmer in Lulea than in London.

Traditionally Sweden has had a better climate than the UK with lower humidity result of a land rather than a sea climate. However in the last few years we have had more of what my doctor calls 'English weather' with more grey damp days in winter. This has lead to a marked increase in so called English diseases such as bronchitis
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MachineGunGirl
post 24.Feb.2010, 04:53 AM
Post #18
Location: Dalarna
Joined: 21.Dec.2009

QUOTE (kaze @ 23.Feb.2010, 02:50 PM) *
I definitely feel the difference.. I can walk around in 0 no problems here, its a warm day, but back home I'm freezing to death- and this is wearing exactly the same clothes.

Same with me! Even -5 isn't that bad as a 0 in my country... there you get frozen to the bones!!!

Interesting...
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The Nine
post 24.Feb.2010, 10:35 AM
Post #19
Joined: 10.Aug.2006

QUOTE (summo @ 23.Feb.2010, 01:05 PM) *
Some parts of Britains get a lot of snow, the problems in the UK are similar to Sweden, it's just the scale that differs. Both suffer from a lack of funding. In economic t ... (show full quote)


The UK doesnt have any extensive cold weather plan for one very simple reason. Its cheaper not to have one. In Sweden you can guarantee you will get a prolonged period of snow and winter weather. Whether its a month or so, as in 2007, or the 106 days of laying snow in 2006, the government of Sweden knows that it will need to delpoy its trucks, snow clearers and road gritters many times over the winter months. For that reason, the public money they spend on this infrastructure is wholly justified. In UK snow is never a certainty and if we do get any it seldom lasts for more than a week or so. For that reason the cost of a huge winter infrastruture can't be quite so justified in UK. Just no point in buying and maintaining hundreds of vehicles and spending huge amounts of public money for an 'event' that often doesn't happen, and when it does happen, it doesn't last very long.

It's simpley easier write off the snow days. OK, people dont go to work, stuff doesnt get to where it needs to be etc, but the lost trade income is likely to be far less than the cost of implimanting some hugely expensive infrastructure. 8 out of 10 years it won't be needed. Just easier to 'live with it' when you do get the occasional bad spell of weather.
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VikingHumpingWitch
post 24.Feb.2010, 11:46 AM
Post #20
Location: Gothenburg
Joined: 21.Dec.2005

Surely the biggest difference in behaviour is that English people still go out and live their lives in winter, whereas Swedes stay home and light a lot of candles and har det mysigt.
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summo
post 24.Feb.2010, 11:46 AM
Post #21
Joined: 9.Jan.2010

QUOTE (Rick Methven @ 23.Feb.2010, 04:20 PM) *
It is not an urban myth at all the level that we feel the cold is down to humidity.


Yes, humidity does play a part, I agree cold air, while its moisture content is necessarily quite low (low absolute humidity), may be almost saturated with respect to the maximum amount of water vapor it is capable of holding (high relative humidity). Cold air with high relative humidity “feels” colder than dry air of the same temperature because high humidity in cold weather increases the conduction of heat from the body. Conversely, hot air attended by high relative humidity “feels” warmer than it actually is because of an increased conduction of heat to the body combined with a lessening of the cooling effect afforded by evaporation.

This the normal equation for windchill, which does not take into account humidity, but some websites do.
This the bbc one T(wc) = 13.12 + 0.6215T - 11.37V**0.16 + 0.3965TV**0.16 not sure what metcheck or other companies use.
(Where T(wc) is the wind chill index based on the Celsius scale, T is the air temperature in °C, and V is the air speed in km/h measured at 10 m (33 ft, standard anemometer height).

wet air is lighter than dry air. This is because a water molecule weighs less (18 g/mol), than either an N2 (28 g/mol) or O2 (32 g/mol), but it has a greater number of molecules. Wet air has a greater heat capacity than dry air so it can remove more heat from you faster than dry air with less convection. Wet air also has a greater number of molecules hitting you every second, which also improves conductivity.

The vapour pressure of water at low temperatures means that the water concentration in air is <1%... Specific heat capacity (Cp) and heat transfer are the factors that seem to be of importance here. The heat capacity of water vapor is about twice that of air (weighted average of N2 and O2). But that means that the overall difference of the Cp of dry air and wet air is about 1%, given its low vapor pressure...

There is a slight mystery, I'll give some numbers:
The heat transfer coefficient of water vapor is 16 W/(m K)
The heat transfer coefficient of air is 24 W/(m K)

I looked up some equations for heat transfer... and I conclude that one factor that I didn't mention myself, and that I haven't seen here yet is the diffusion coefficient of gases. But, that doesn't seem to be the one either: the diffusion coefficient of water in air at 25 deg C is 25.6E-6 m2/s, while that of oxygen is 20.6E-6 m2/s. The difference is not very big...so an increase in moisture won't impact massively.

Either way moisture or humidity has only a small impact on how air temps is felt by an individual, a few degrees in the most extreme examples. Perhaps it's just psychology, not physics that makes that air feel colder?
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Rick Methven
post 24.Feb.2010, 12:30 PM
Post #22
Location: Linköping
Joined: 30.Nov.2005

The big difference between Sweden and the UK is building construction. The British building construction code starts of with "Britain has a temperate climate". This one phrase allows building companies to build cheaper without anything like the level of insulation that is the minimum here in Sweden.

My 1950's Swedish house is far, far better insulated than my 1980' built British house. The lack of effective construction law in the UK is what leads to old people freezing to death because they have to make the choice between eating or heating. The cost of lax building laws is now costing the UK tax payer a lot in a cold winter. My mother has had 5 'cold weather' payments of £25 when the temperature has been below freezing. She is quite lucky as her house has been modernised with triple glazing. but still has no cavity wall insulation.
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summo
post 24.Feb.2010, 02:18 PM
Post #23
Joined: 9.Jan.2010

Rick, she should also get £25O winter fuel payment if she is a pensioner(ie over 60) as well as the £25 weekly top ups.

She could get help with cavity wall insulation too - http://www.saga.co.uk/money/gettingthebest...armer-homes.asp
Many power companies will assist, provided you then use them as your main supplier.

You sound like you know a bit about this, so it will be worth getting the walls done, provided the roof space has already been insulated. Your right UK building regs are dire, they are the bare minimum standard for everything, rather than being a gold standard that are future proof.
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Rick Methven
post 24.Feb.2010, 02:58 PM
Post #24
Location: Linköping
Joined: 30.Nov.2005

Oh she gets the £250 OK, and now an additional £125 on top which she says "I dont really need this extra because I have lovely draught free windows". As far as wall insulation is concerned she says " I am 95 and will not live long enough to get any benifit biggrin.gif
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summo
post 24.Feb.2010, 03:21 PM
Post #25
Joined: 9.Jan.2010

QUOTE (Rick Methven @ 24.Feb.2010, 01:58 PM) *
I am 95 and will not live long enough to get any benifit biggrin.gif

That's the thing with her generation, who have survived a lot of things, they will just put on another layer rather than turn up the heating or dig into their savings.
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Freja
post 24.Feb.2010, 03:51 PM
Post #26
Joined: 27.Jan.2010

Or hang on online discussion forum complaining and whining about how shitty all things [country or nationality] of choice.

biggrin.gif
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Localer
post 24.Feb.2010, 04:11 PM
Post #27
Location: Stockholm
Joined: 27.Oct.2006

you read my mind Freja biggrin.gif
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Nuname
post 24.Feb.2010, 04:33 PM
Post #28
Location: Gothenburg
Joined: 18.Apr.2005

Rick - Your neighbours contractor needs 4 months to dig up some pipes? How much of that time will be working and how much will be away starting other jobs?
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Rick Methven
post 24.Feb.2010, 04:48 PM
Post #29
Location: Linköping
Joined: 30.Nov.2005

The time scale given to me was by another neighbour who has a business doing paths driveways and general digging. He has started off well at the neighbours - several lorry loads of soil dug up and carried away. Now we have to wait and see.

However as it took him 4 months to lay 45 30x30 paving slabs on my front path and I am still waiting for him to pave my garage driveway 15 months after he dug up the old asphalt, I can quite believe it will NOT be finished by midsummer.

Mind you he does a very good job for a 'friendly' price nudge nudge, wink wink, know what I mean. wink.gif

Just takes his time. It is not just me, he has loads of ongoing jobs around the neighbourhood, and is always going to get on with it tomorrow. The way he his you would think he comes from Spain instead of Småland laugh.gif
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V8farty
post 24.Feb.2010, 04:53 PM
Post #30
Location: United Kingdom
Joined: 3.Oct.2007

I've heard that English and French weather also differ.
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