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The Local _ Life in Sweden _ Energy consumption in Sweden

Posted by: Hopgood 9.Sep.2019, 08:49 AM

So Sweden has a reputation for being environmentally enlightened, right? People are into recycling, Greta is helping us save the planet one boat ride at a time and the Green Party does fairly well in elections.

But did you know, Sweden is in the top 10 for electricity consumption per household in the whole world? Shocking, right?

The world energy council publishes figures here: https://wec-indicators.enerdata.net/household-electricity-use.html

The top positions are all occupied by the richest countries with the most extreme climates. Qatar. Saudi, etc are obviously spending a lot on air con and here in the north, Sweden, Finland and Norway all feature. There are plenty of other very hot and very cold countries in the world, but it’s the ones with money who are using the most electricity per household. No surprise there then, but it does suggest that a lot of this consumption is unnecessary, ie. it results from people being able to afford the convenience of having their appliances on.

What’s your annual electricity consumption and is that for a house (big, medium or small) or apartment (big, medium, small)? Have you increased or reduced your consumption over the past five years - and if you don’t know, are you really making enough effort to reduce consumption?

Why not log on to your electricity supplier website and find out some of these answers and as we head towards winter, maybe you can find ways to reduce your electricity bill? If enough people have this on their mind, maybe sweden won’t be embarrassingly amongst the top ten consumers of electricity on a per household basis in the future.

Posted by: Bsmith 9.Sep.2019, 12:01 PM

"Why not log on to your electricity supplier website and find out some of these answers...


But that would require electricity.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 9.Sep.2019, 01:54 PM

Who cares, life is only temporary enjoy it while you can...

Posted by: skogsbo 9.Sep.2019, 04:36 PM

It's not what you use but how's it is produced that causes the pollution.

Posted by: skogsbo 9.Sep.2019, 04:39 PM

Also if everyone travelled by train, tram, under ground, electric car or bike, then per capita use looks high, but what you've done is eliminate a lot of fossil fuels.

As with all stats it's the detail that matters.

Ps. Technically Greta didn't save anything. Two crew that she and her assistant replaced on the boat had to be flown out to new York to continue sailing the boat where ever it went. So technically she increased emmissions by two flights worth, or she could have just flown herself. Clever but utterly pointless PR.

Posted by: Hopgood 9.Sep.2019, 05:05 PM

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock @ 9.Sep.2019, 02:54 PM) *
Who cares, life is only temporary enjoy it while you can...


It’s a good point, and one I agree with as it happens - my world view is that listening / reading the news often pointlessly raises anxiety levels and the best approach to life is to appreciate the small things and take your enjoyment where you find it.

BUT nevertheless, environmental issues do concern me and if you look past the noise of vested interests and fake news there is plenty to reason to think that we - all of us - should be taking action to reduce our consumption. Extreme weather is happening with increasing frequency and the rain this summer in Sweden was frequently “monsoon rain” rather than the more common summer showers of only a few years ago.

Even if you want to shed all responsibility for your carbon footprint and, from the environmental point of view, you might leave your patio heater on full 24/7, there is still a compelling argument that cutting your electricity consumption has a positive effect on your financial well being. Every kWh you don’t use at home is more than a krona which remains in your bank account at the end of the month. In the last 4 years I’ve cut my household consumption from 11,300kWh per year to 6,500 kWh per year, and I’m looking to hit 5,500 in the next year.

Only by being aware of your consumption level and challenging yourself to improve (reduce it) can you motivate yourself to make the changes needed. And on a macro level, what a difference it would make to Sweden’s standing in the World Energy Council tables if everyone stepped up to the mark.

QUOTE (skogsbo @ 9.Sep.2019, 05:39 PM) *
Also if everyone travelled by train, tram, under ground, electric car or bike, then per capita use looks high, but what you've done is eliminate a lot of fossil fuels.
As with all stats it's the detail that matters.

Ps. Technically Greta didn't save anything. Two crew that she and her assistant replaced on the boat had to be flown out to new York to continue sailing the boat where ever it went. So technically she increased emmissions by two flights worth, or she could have just flown herself. Clever but utterly pointless PR.


Yes I agree, tables and statistics don’t tell the whole story. But being in the top ten in the whole world for per household consumption does demonstrate there’s plenty of scope to improve. And Greta is young, I’m sure she is far from infallible, but her contribution should be judged not only on her own carbon footprint but the effect she has in motivating others to improve theirs.

Posted by: skogsbo 9.Sep.2019, 05:09 PM

Household? How many people? What's counted or not counted? Travel? Heating? Which is often communal. When 80% of Sweden's standard supply is from non carbon sources, they might pollute less despite being further up the table?

Greta.. Yeah trump will listen to her won't he?

Posted by: Bsmith 9.Sep.2019, 07:39 PM

The only way to leave no carbon footprint is to die...and your burial and/or cremation will still use energy and produce carbon. Unless you can find a way to be composted.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 9.Sep.2019, 09:50 PM

The weather on this planet has been changing back and forth for billions of years and billions before mankind was present...

The Earth was covered in ice that was miles thick for millions of years...

We recently had an ice age, (in geographical time) and the ice was made of water from the oceans so the shorelines receded, now it's melting and the shorelines are going under water...We built cities as close to the shore as we could get, we filled in marshlands/wetlands for fancy ocean/water view homes, there are places in New Orleans, La USA that you can stand in a street and look up and see ships passing by in a canal !!!

We will now pay the price for being foolish...ice melts...water rises...we move inland...it's that simple!!!

About energy usage, that's simple too...waste not want not, works...

Posted by: Bsmith 9.Sep.2019, 11:08 PM

I think you are oversimplifying a bit, Gamla. If the average Earth temperature rises a few degrees and the oceans by a few feet, there is going to be a lot of human suffering. We all need to do our part to preserve our home and leave something behind for the next generation. Will it be enough? Time will tell.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 10.Sep.2019, 01:47 AM

What I am trying to say is it is not human activity that is causing this to happen...

It's natural and our contribution is not all that important, to be thrifty, recycle and all that good stuff is fine but it won't solve what will occur naturally...

The orbit of the Earth also comes into play here it can be closer or farther away from the Sun...Can we change that???...Will we want to???

Be thrifty, move inland and remember...If Noah can do it so can we!!! rolleyes.gif

Remember this every place on land where you find oil, used to be the bottom of a sea!!!

Isn't there/wasn't a soap opera called The Changing World??? laugh.gif

Posted by: skogsbo 10.Sep.2019, 05:55 AM

Gamla. The earth rotates once a day, it takes a year to do a full lap of the sun. Solar cycles(spots, flares, cme...) usually go from peak to peak in around 11 or 12years.

Glaciation, we are currently in an inter glacial period. These last tens of thousands of years and temps creep up and down measured by a change of less than a 1c per century.

The last hottest 15years ever recorded have all been in the last 20 years. We can also measure gas content in the air from glacial ice cores, these are peaking now too.

We can't blame any form of solar cycles or glaciation. It's our fault. The longer we deny it, the bigger the problem becomes.


Posted by: joshr 10.Sep.2019, 06:04 AM

QUOTE (Hopgood @ 9.Sep.2019, 08:49 AM) *
But did you know, Sweden is in the top 10 for electricity consumption per household in the whole world? Shocking, right?

Not really. We live in a developed country in a Northern climate. There's a lot of heating going on here that is un-needed in the more temperate climates.

You also notice that average usage is down about 20% over the last 10 years, whereas other countries continue to expand.

Posted by: skogsbo 10.Sep.2019, 06:51 AM

It's also additionally misleading as in many countries like the UK homes are heated with individual gas boilers, so their leckie use can look low compared to how much carbon they really pump out.

Posted by: gsurya 10.Sep.2019, 10:30 AM

What is so surprising about this? All the northernmost countries are there - naturally need more electricity consumption.

Several oil-rich Middle East countries are there too - there they need to use airconditioning throughout the year.

The difference is that Sweden also has one of the highest % of renewable electricity usage in the world - eventually that is the main statistic that matters.

Posted by: Bsmith 10.Sep.2019, 12:12 PM

When 98% percent of the world's climate scientists agree that human activity is to blame...I tend to believe that. Most likely what will happen is that this trend will continue until we kill off half of the human population, then things will settle down and we'll start the cycle all over again. Or perhaps we'll kill off all the humans and a million years from now, the new creature that inhabit the earth will find our bones and say, "Oooo! Look, a fossil".

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 10.Sep.2019, 02:50 PM

The predictions/reasons are not correct, the weather will be what it will be...

A short time ago there was a "little Ice Age" Europe was very cold all the grape vines died in the northern countries, that's why they mainly drink things that come from grains etc, now... Look it up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age laugh.gif


Posted by: skogsbo 10.Sep.2019, 03:30 PM

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock @ 10.Sep.2019, 02:50 PM) *
The predictions/reasons are not correct, the weather will be what it will be...

A short time ago there was a "little Ice Age" Europe was very cold all the grape vines died in the northern countries, that's why they mainly drink things that come from grains etc, now... Look it up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age laugh.gif

Yes. And much of that was attributed to reduced sunlight caused by volcanoes.

The Thames was recorded to have frozen but it's a bit of a play on words to call it an ice age. It was cold for a few years, but any impact on global glaciation was extremely limit.

The last true ice age was from 115,000 to 11,000 bc. Notice the difference in longevity. All of Canada, Scandinavia, most of the UK, half of Russia etc were covered in glaciers ranging from 1 to 3 km thick. Because the ice only started melting and receding some 13,000 years many countries are still experiencing isostatic rebound where the land masses are rising as the weight of ice is no longer there. This is or was an ice age, not a few cold years and failed crops a 100,000 of ice obliterating all life. Amazing when you consider every species in say Canada or sweden has spread there in the last 13,000 years.

Glaciation etc. doesn't however explain the direct correlation between our carbon, methane and other emmissions and a progressive rise in global average temperatures.

Nor does it explain how el ninos are warmer than ever (Pacific sea temps) or the fact that on average hurricanes, typhoons etc are on average stronger.

Edit. Mainland Europe still drinks wine from grapes. The rest or northern part ales etc. As grapes don't grow well as it always been too cold. That is changing though. Southern UK and sweden now have several places producing wine.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 10.Sep.2019, 03:45 PM

Over time this planet has changed many times, the magnetic poles have changed, the continents have split/shifted, seas/oceans have been created only to disappear many, many times, mountains have become hills Etc..

The cause of the change is moot, we have to prepare for a different climate/life...But not to worry in a few million years it will get cold again...

Posted by: skogsbo 10.Sep.2019, 03:54 PM

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock @ 10.Sep.2019, 03:45 PM) *
Over time this planet has changed many times, the magnetic poles have changed, the continents have split/shifted, seas/oceans have been created only to disappear many, many times, mountains have become hills Etc..

The cause of the change is moot, we have to prepare for a different climate/life...But not to worry in a few million years it will get cold again...

All are natural events. The current one isn't natural, it's of our own doing.

But the point is if you live 5m or less above sea level now is the time to worry.

If you live off food that requires irritation now is the time to worry.

If you have an illness etc could be worsened by excess heat or pollution now is the time to worry.

By the time another ice age arrives, our fate will have long since been decided. Probably population reduction, wars, bit of famine, a few diseases etc.

Imagine if that last hurricane had sat near stationary over Florida for 48hrs instead of the Bahamas perhaps a few more folk there would be taking things more seriously?

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 10.Sep.2019, 04:23 PM

Anybody familiar withe the earth sciences will acknowledge that sea levels have been rising for centuries and land bridges between continents have disappeared, rising sea levels can bring about a multitude of changes not yet understood by scientists...

Human habitation has appeared where it never existed before, so any change will effect us...

We only think about it now because of the political hysteria that is now the "in thing"

Vote for me and I will save you and the planet!!!

When you think that now at this time in history most of the problems that mankind has faced have been dealt with pretty well so what is there for a politician to use to show that the world needs him/her to be in control???

The human race has adapted to harsh conditions before and it can now without all the political hysteria that is in place today...

The Sahara was once vegetated, now it's not...Mankind did not cause the desertification there...it was Mother Nature that did... rolleyes.gif

Posted by: TheExpatEagle 10.Sep.2019, 06:43 PM

There was a good documentary about 10 years ago which documented how the climate wasn't on the agenda in the 70s when Thatcher was going for election but by the time of the late 80s when she was going for her 3rd term the political parties realised it was not only a vote winner but scientists saw it was a good way to get funding.

It has snowballed from there.

That said I think if we can do something to reduce energy consumption, such as LED lights, etc. then I think we should. Do I think humans are responsible? No, not 100% I don't.

However, I always liken the earth to a gym hall. If you stand in it alone you might be chilly. Put 50 people in there it might be okay. Put another 100 in there and you might think it is hot because more people means more body heat, etc.

In terms of the earth we have more people than ever before and more things that generate heat. My home computer alone throws out hot air from a CPU that idles at 42 degrees. Fridges, TVs, cars, A/C units and so on all add heat.

That's the part I think we are adding to global warming, the weather is natural.

People say animals are contributing but it is accepted that algae and methane (farts) contribute to 50% of the problem because the most farmed animals are not meat eaters (cows, lambs, etc.). If we didn't farm them then they would be almost as many in the wild.

In other words, vegetarians cause more methane than meat eaters. Save the planet, kill a vegetarian or vegan.


Posted by: Saywhatwhat 10.Sep.2019, 07:34 PM

Whether what humans are doing matters or not, we should for the sake of nature not pollute it as much as we do. The oceans are filled with plastic and it is disgusting... for just one example.

Humans tend to think they are very very important. Whether we like it or not, or are speeding up or not, another evolutionary step will occur.

At the least, people should take advantage of low energy consumption because it saves money. Everyone likes that.

In regards to Sweden’s energy consumption... I believe someone mentioned the carbon footprint from producing the energy which is consumed.

It made me think of this short documentary which presents the possibility that Sweden is burning a large amount of plastics for their “recycled energy”...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=caw-969W-D4

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 10.Sep.2019, 09:23 PM

Post#22... BINGO!!!

Posted by: skogsbo 11.Sep.2019, 09:11 AM

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock @ 10.Sep.2019, 04:23 PM) *
Anybody familiar withe the earth sciences will acknowledge that sea levels have been rising for centuries and land bridges between continents have disappeared, rising sea levels can bring about a multitude of changes not yet understood by scientists...

Human habitation has appeared where it never existed before, so any change will effect us...

We only think about it now because of the political hysteria that is now the "in thing"

Vote for me and I will save you and the planet!!!

When you think that now at this time in history most of the problems that mankind has faced have been dealt with pretty well so what is there for a politician to use to show that the world needs him/her to be in control???

The human race has adapted to harsh conditions before and it can now without all the political hysteria that is in place today...

The Sahara was once vegetated, now it's not...Mankind did not cause the desertification there...it was Mother Nature that did... rolleyes.gif

Curiously enough, I am qualified in earth sciences. I've done a mish mash of geology, physics, volcanic/plate tectonics and environmental science.

Climate can change slowly because continents move. The land you stand on now will have been elsewhere a 100million years ago. That isn't climates change, that is the earth literally moving beneath your feet!
The Sahara was formed due to land closing up overseas. They created the alps and the Mediterranean some 7 million ish years ago. Part of the desert was greener, but again it's through man's efforts over grazing changed that some 5000 years ago.
Many has adapted and used science etc. But these are usually temporary. We've only been farming a few thousand years, had medicines for 100-200years etc. But we are damaging the planet in a scale we can't possible improvise our way out of.

You are free to call it mother nature etc. But it's us that is changing it. Continents, glacier etc all cause changes measurable in 1000s of years, we are causing changes annually.


Posted by: skogsbo 11.Sep.2019, 09:24 AM

QUOTE (TheExpatEagle @ 10.Sep.2019, 06:43 PM) *
However, I always liken the earth to a gym hall. If you stand in it alone you might be chilly. Put 50 people in there it might be okay. Put another 100 in there and you might think it is hot because more people means more body heat, etc.

In terms of the earth we have more people than ever before and more things that generate heat. My home computer alone throws out hot air from a CPU that idles at 42 degrees. Fridges, TVs, cars, A/C units and so on all add heat.

That's the part I think we are adding to global warming, the weather is natural.

People say animals are contributing but it is accepted that algae and methane (farts) contribute to 50% of the problem because the most farmed animals are not meat eaters (cows, lambs, etc.). If we didn't farm them then they would be almost as many in the wild.

In other words, vegetarians cause more methane than meat eaters. Save the planet, kill a vegetarian or vegan.

If there would have been just as many wild as domestic animals, why are methane levels higher now than before?

Whilst your cpu might get a little hot, we have a massive heat source near us that top trumps it, I can feel it's effect far more than anything else. I know when it's turned off... the sun. It emits more energy that we can imagine. 35000 times more energy hits the earth from the sun than we use on the entire planet.

So, even if a very small extra percentage of that energy is trapped in the form of heat on earth it has major consequences. You cpu, everyones cpu, everyone's heating with the windows open...meaningless. But the gases emitted producing your electricity, if they trap just 0.000something% of that sun's energy we have major problems.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 11.Sep.2019, 11:33 AM

The Earth changes with or without help from mankind, the Sahara is no exception...

"For several hundred thousand years, the Sahara has alternated between desert and savanna grassland in a 20,000 year cycle[8] caused by the precession of the Earth's axis as it rotates around the Sun, which changes the location of the North African Monsoon. The area is next expected to become green in about 15,000 years (17,000 AD)."

Just wait for that!!! laugh.gif

Posted by: skogsbo 11.Sep.2019, 02:32 PM

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock @ 11.Sep.2019, 11:33 AM) *
The Earth changes with or without help from mankind, the Sahara is no exception...

"For several hundred thousand years, the Sahara has alternated between desert and savanna grassland in a 20,000 year cycle[8] caused by the precession of the Earth's axis as it rotates around the Sun, which changes the location of the North African Monsoon. The area is next expected to become green in about 15,000 years (17,000 AD)."

Just wait for that!!! laugh.gif

Where are you getting your science from? The earth orbits the sun annually. Axis shift is minimal and is far out weighed by continental drift.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 11.Sep.2019, 03:01 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahara

Posted by: Gjeebes 11.Sep.2019, 07:00 PM

"It's not what you use but how's it is produced that causes the pollution."

Geesus people are thick.

Using the energy that is produced, by energy production methods that creates pollution, causes more energy to be produced, and hence is a DIRECT cause of pollution.

Duh!

Posted by: skogsbo 11.Sep.2019, 08:49 PM

QUOTE (Gjeebes @ 11.Sep.2019, 07:00 PM) *
"It's not what you use but how's it is produced that causes the pollution."

Geesus people are thick.

Using the energy that is produced, by energy production methods that creates pollution, causes more energy to be produced, and hence is a DIRECT cause of pollution.

Duh!

No.

Use electricity sourced from wind, solar etc you create less carbon emmissions than burning coal or oil to create the same amount of power. It's pretty simple really.

Ps. I'll give you clue... go look for the exhaust pipe on a tesla.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 11.Sep.2019, 09:15 PM

Lets discuss what we know is true:

Many thousands of years ago the ice age began...It was not caused by humans...

Thousands of years ago it ended because the ice began to melt...Again not caused by humans...

The warming is continuing to this day and will continue...


It is a geological event that humans cannot cause or stop...

Don't listen to lunatic politicians that promise to save you from the inevitable...

Move inland and get a big air conditioner!!! laugh.gif rolleyes.gif

Posted by: Saywhatwhat 11.Sep.2019, 09:48 PM

Sweden burns a lot of plastic for energy.

They call this...

“Recycling”

Posted by: Bsmith 11.Sep.2019, 10:45 PM

QUOTE (skogsbo @ 11.Sep.2019, 07:49 PM) *
No.

Use electricity sourced from wind, solar etc you create less carbon emmissions than burning coal or oil to create the same amount of power. It's pretty simple really.

Ps. I'll give you clue... go look for the exhaust pipe on a tesla.



However, you have to factor in the carbon cost of manufacturing the turbines, panels, etc...but a step in the right direction.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 12.Sep.2019, 01:06 AM

What is needed here to stop all this fuss is the loving guidance brought to you by the politician you voted for...

Naturally he/she will demand your complete adherence to the lifestyle they will dictate for you...

Those of you defying their benevolent and extremely well crafted ideas and procedures will be dealt with severely..and deservedly so!!!

Imagine using plastic straws when the future of mankind lays in complete avoidance of that which is produced by the usage of the real villains in this scenario...FOSSIL FUELS!!!

No cars, trains or planes too

Ain't life grand!!! laugh.gif

Posted by: Bsmith 12.Sep.2019, 12:29 PM

No one is suggesting we all suddenly become Amish, but if we all make a conscious effort then, perhaps, we can save our planet which is certainly a better option than colonizing Mars or some other ridiculous notion.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 12.Sep.2019, 02:32 PM

And people still believe that the sky is falling...

Posted by: Bsmith 12.Sep.2019, 10:59 PM

I don't believe that the sky is falling but I have noticed how the climate has changed in my lifetime. You may say that it is all a natural phenomenon but, as for myself, I tend to side with 98% of the scientists who believe we humans are culpable.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 12.Sep.2019, 11:22 PM

It's a "snow job" laugh.gif

What they do not tell you is some people will actually benefit from change, countries once filled with arid/frozen land will now be able to farm that land...depending on what type of change there will be definite benefits in some areas, etc...

A life time is almost/is nothing in geological time...New York has had memorable snowstorms...Blizzards of '98 and 1947 etc, were recently topped does that mean we will freeze to death in a few years???

Or can naysayers say that it's nothing we had bad storms before the recent ones, so nothing has/is changed...

In the long term the warming after the last ice age will continue, we here now will not be alive to see what happens ...

However in my lifetime I can positively say something is wrong with the snow due to climate change...it's harder to shovel now than it was 50 years ago!!! laugh.gif

Posted by: Gjeebes 13.Sep.2019, 05:45 AM

And again, ignorance is bliss. How much power is actually generated by "innocent" carbon neutral means? And what is the carbon footprint of the manufacture of the tech used?

Why do you think Meatballia did not sign on to the nuclear agreement to cut back?

"Ps. I'll give you clue... go look for the exhaust pipe on a tesla."

Right. And how many 10's of 1000's of km does one need to drive, before one has offset the carbon footprint from the manufacture of the rechargeable batteries?

Some years ago it was already at 130,000 km or about 1/2 the lifetime of the car. And recycling causes its own waste streams, so the Tesla deal where they will replace your batteries also can't pass the test.

And then, how can one know if the electricity manufactured, for the recharge, is coming from those innocent sources you mention? You can't and it is foolish to pretend it's all good, and make assumptions about the energy's origins.

And another gimmick too easily accepted (but without any proof) by your fellow Meatballians, is the energy produced by wasting things that should be recycled? Yes, I'm talking about "burning" garbage for energy.

It is simply kicking the can down the road as it promotes consumption. Why use that thing again when you can buy a new one (which the Meatballs want you to think) and can feel good throwing that perfectly usable thing away, under the guise of "clean energy". Clothes, plastics etc are the main suspects. H & M fast fashion...ya, let's burn perfectly wearable clothes! Good for business!

It is as stupid, possibly even more stupid considering the scale, as getting heat from a thick wire because you force/shove electrons into it, which can't get through due to high resistance, and which are subsequently lost as heat (i.e your electric oven).

You should attend some of the scientific conferences I have been to, to cut the crap out, and see how things really are.

Posted by: skogsbo 13.Sep.2019, 07:05 AM

Of coutse there are carbon and raw material costs in construction of green energy sources. Nothing will ever be entirely neutral, but even just lowering inputs is far better than increasing them which was the path we were on.

Batteries; yeah a massive problem yet to be truly resolved. Charge time, endurance, rare earth metals, recycling.. all to be over come. But improvements will come and most solutions will be better than an internal combustion engine.

Electeicty sources; I agree it is of less value driving an electric car if your power comes from burning stuff like lignite as Germany does. And if everyone suddenly wanted an electric car there would not be the power available, these things take time.

There are benefits now though, it's easier to catch pollution on one plant than millions of individual cars. That means less pollution on a street level where folk live.

It's easy to knock it, forget extinction rebellion nonsense they are dreamers, we are in early stages of perhaps a 100 year shift towards being near carbon neutral. Many of todays schemes will fail, but that's progress others will work and on we go forwards. It's only by being negative and doing nothing that will stop us moving forwards at all.

Ps. Tesla is a toy for the rich, a gimmick to show what's possible. It has helped make electric cars etc cool and thousands will now buy leafs etc.. thus encouraging tech to progress.

Posted by: Hopgood 13.Sep.2019, 08:04 AM

Interesting this thread made it to 3 pages already, and not a soul has answered the question posed in the opening post:

QUOTE
What’s your annual electricity consumption and is that for a house (big, medium or small) or apartment (big, medium, small)? Have you increased or reduced your consumption over the past five years - and if you don’t know, are you really making enough effort to reduce consumption?


I suppose this means that people actually don’t know how much they are consuming!

Posted by: skogsbo 13.Sep.2019, 08:43 AM

QUOTE (Hopgood @ 13.Sep.2019, 08:04 AM) *
Interesting this thread made it to 3 pages already, and not a soul has answered the question posed in the opening post:



I suppose this means that people actually don’t know how much they are consuming!

Because it's irrelevant. What matters is the carbon footprint of your household.

Oh look I don't use any electricity, aren't i great, but then they might heat their house using fossils fuel directly, buy in take away everyday to eat, buy all their goods online from the other side of world, collect old diesels and ragger cars... and thus have a truly massive carbon footprint.

The problem currently is it's quite easy to look green, but all you've really done is out sourced your emmisions to another person, business or country. Most of Europe looks greener, but that is because mass polluting China builds so much stuff for us.

Posted by: Bsmith 13.Sep.2019, 12:27 PM

It's not a contest, anyway. I used more energy when my commute was longer but I mitigated it as much as possible with a small 4 cylinder car that got good gas mileage. You just have to do what you can. If everyone adopts that attitude, a difference can be made.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 13.Sep.2019, 02:25 PM

We are not doomed, we just have to move around, it is not the end of our existence...people once moved away from places that became deserts, went underwater or froze, etc...

So can we...The sky is not falling!!!

Posted by: Bsmith 13.Sep.2019, 03:00 PM

Some people, maybe a lot of people will be doomed if the predictions come true.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 13.Sep.2019, 03:13 PM

Predicted doom is "false news"...Just look at the places around the world that once were inhabited, that are now empty...What happened to the people???

They MOVED away!!!

Ever since Venice was built it began to sink, it is still sinking, there will come a time when people cannot live there without drowning, if people drown can climate change be blamed or is it because they were too stupid to adapt to change and move away???

Humans have always adapted to change...

Posted by: skogsbo 13.Sep.2019, 03:24 PM

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock @ 13.Sep.2019, 03:13 PM) *
Predicted doom is "false news"...Just look at the places around the world that once were inhabited, that are now empty...What happened to the people???

They MOVED away!!!

Precisely. If you look at the number of people living 5m or less above current sea levels, it's a vast number. Millions, if not a billion.

The last time in man's history these kind of changes happened, man was a Hunter gatherer and probably just moved their tent!

How many Bangladeshis is you local town prepared to accept? Etc.. the west has caused or created most of the problem. We should be prepared to accept most casualties.

Posted by: skogsbo 13.Sep.2019, 03:29 PM

Venice? Insignificant number of affluent people who can easily move.

Bangladesh. Millions with next to nothing, who csnt afford to anything.

I think you might not be sensing the true scale of man's current fate.

What about when the next massive hurricane hits the USA, of they have to create a new factor 6 hurricane, because some level 5s are worse than others.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 13.Sep.2019, 03:58 PM

In 1948 millions of people on the Indian continent moved because of religious/political reasons, they can also move because of the weather...

If there were no people in a hurricanes path would it be as bad as predicted???

Don't forget climate change is a fairly slow event, there is plenty of time to adjust...

Posted by: skogsbo 13.Sep.2019, 07:31 PM

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock @ 13.Sep.2019, 03:58 PM) *
In 1948 millions of people on the Indian continent moved because of religious/political reasons, they can also move because of the weather...

If there were no people in a hurricanes path would it be as bad as predicted???

Don't forget climate change is a fairly slow event, there is plenty of time to adjust...

Yes and all those people in poor countries won't want to move to another poor country. They'll be wanting to be your neighbour.

Hurricanes. Yeah could empty all the southern states, too where?

Climate change slow, 15 of the world's hottest years have been in the last 20 years. In climate terms that's exceptionally rapid.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 13.Sep.2019, 08:11 PM

Rapid weather changes go both ways just think of the "Little Ice Age" it came and went!!!

Europeans may want/have to move also, the problem is nobody knows for sure and the hysteria created by the political media is just that!!!

In some places on the planet the weather changes four time a year!!!

Posted by: skogsbo 14.Sep.2019, 06:41 AM

You really are in denial aren't you.

Posted by: Gjeebes 14.Sep.2019, 09:29 AM

This thread really attests to the common-place ignorance about energy production and consumption, not to even begin to mention about rising CO2 levels.

We have many arm-chair experts here, regurgitating the ignorance they have chosen to follow either to alleviate any culpability of their own, or simply to appear to be "right".

Oddly, it's exactly the same behaviour of many people in power.

I guess people will start to understand when the partial pressure of CO2 is so large, that it will dilute that of the O2 required for humans to breath.

But hey, if you lot feel better about yourselves to talk non-sense about things you clearly don't understand, knock yourselves out.

Turn the lights out if you are not in the room. Turn your car off if it isn't moving. Be smart. Use less, and use wisely. Don't waste.

And we can only hope that India and China never catch up with the wasteful living standards of the West.

Posted by: skogsbo 15.Sep.2019, 07:03 AM

QUOTE (Gjeebes @ 14.Sep.2019, 09:29 AM) *
And we can only hope that India and China never catch up with the wasteful living standards of the West.

The only hope is that many leap over the technology we have used in the last 50 years and embrace the emerging tech. Their first car will be electric etc.

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 15.Sep.2019, 03:13 PM

India and China are the worst polluters on the planet...

Posted by: skogsbo 15.Sep.2019, 05:31 PM

QUOTE (Gamla Hälsingebock @ 15.Sep.2019, 03:13 PM) *
India and China are the worst polluters on the planet...

Carbon dioxide emmisions;

1. China
2. USA
3.India

But is China the worst polluter because we get it to make all the most polluting products, then import them?

It's quite easy to off shore all your bad habits and pretend you're clean.

Posted by: Gjeebes 15.Sep.2019, 05:32 PM

"The only hope is that many leap over the technology we have used in the last 50 years"

Except they aren't. China has opened a new coal fired energy plant each month or so, somewhere in its vast geographical area, for the past decade, if not decades.

Loads of the stuff we buy, is made, there. Probably half, if not all of every Tesla too (even if it is assembled in the US). China doesn't give a flying f#"% about pollution, child labour, or human rights. Neither does India, nor the rest of the undeveloped world.

I appreciate your glass half-full approach, but you seem to have all the easy answers available from the most dubious sources, that just don't carry much weight.

And telling people here that it doesn't matter how much energy they use...that's just negligent, misleading and dangerous.

Thankfully, no one gives a flying f¤%& about this forum or Meatballia either, so largely no harm done...but still, it TOTALLY matters how much energy each of us uses, and for what.

And that isn't by any means a "new" thing either. I've been turning lights of etc since the 70's, as taught by parents who knew better.

Posted by: skogsbo 15.Sep.2019, 06:31 PM

Gjeebes
My point about energy source, wasn't that energy use doesn't matter, but you can compare electricity use between two countries as a benchmark of how green they are, when they could generate their power by completely different means.

Yeah, I agree with the rest of what you say. The only reason the eu looks better is because it's out sourced all the manufacturing pollution to Asia.

I don't think it's that people don't care, they just think someone else will some how fix it.

Lights of course, same here. I don't want to use or pay for anything more than I need to.(tight yorkshireman.)

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 15.Sep.2019, 09:04 PM

There are untold billions of people on this planet who practice "waste not want not": it's not a new idea!!!

Posted by: Gamla Hälsingebock 21.Sep.2019, 03:44 PM

Greta revealed!!!


https://www.foxnews.com/science/5-inconvenient-truths-about-the-climate-strike

Posted by: Gjeebes 21.Sep.2019, 05:10 PM

"...but scientists saw it was a good way to get funding"

Right, so, with your tinfoil hat on, I suppose "cancer" is also a scam, right? I mean, it has also "snow-balled" in terms of funding.

Pity about the uneducated views and ignorance of facts in this place. Makes most analyses seem rather artificial and completely lacking.

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