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Freedom of speech

It is hugely important

west_wind
post 26.Aug.2017, 04:44 AM
Post #1
Joined: 23.Aug.2017

Hi all -

Just thought I'd post about free speech and its endangerment in the West. This is an appalling situation really and those who fought for freedom and against tyranny in two World Wars would spin in their graves at the situation today.

Today, across most of the West, it is "feelings and the possibility of offence" that governments see as more important than free speech.
This is very bad (to put it mildly!). A very good example is that of Elisabeth Sabaditsch-Wolff, the Austrian critic of Islam who was (a few years ago) hauled before the courts and convicted of "hate speech" for simply making what was a factual statement about Islam!
A statement that could be shown to be fact by the Islamic texts themselves!

( I hope to in the near future do a few posts - 100 percent fact-based - about Islam, but I am focusing on "freedom of speech" in this post. )

I am extremely lucky to live in New Zealand. Here, we are in one of the last outposts of free speech, and we can pretty much say whatever we want to about anything - unlike Europe and the UK, unfortunately.

Free speech is **essential** to the existence of a country.
Allow me to give an analogy. Let's say I was an expert on the study of the "Zargovon" aliens from planet Zargon. (Fictional, of course, but bear with me...). I (along with others who knew about them), knew that this group had invaded several other nearby planets and had caused catastrophic damage to the local cultures while doing so.
This had been going on for many centuries. I knew that now, the Zargovons were turning their attention to Earth.

Now - under the existence of the kind of laws in Europe and the UK, I would seem to be unable to warn about (or even criticise) the Zargovons! This is even though I were an expert on them and even though they had shown themselves to be hostile to others!

Such a situation really is ridiculous, and yet that is the situation in poor old Europe and the UK today. See? Free speech is buried under ridiculous laws that really **only** punish GOOD people!
People who want to warn against danger!

All of this saddens me greatly. All the more so, given that my father was in the Navy during World War II, so he was one of those fighting against tyranny.

I look up the definition of "tyranny" on the online Merriam-Webster dictionary and one of its definitions is "an oppressive, harsh, or unjust act". Dare I say it, but the clampdown on free speech in the West seems to fit that definition very well.

Bye for now....
west_wind

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egads
post 26.Aug.2017, 04:51 AM
Post #2
Joined: 17.Mar.2017

Stop "stirring the pot" your post is the second in as many days purporting to care about Sweden.

Don't cause damage when people are doing their best. I can through your thinly veiled hate. What are you trying to prove anyway? Are we on candid camera?
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Twiceshy
post 26.Aug.2017, 04:55 AM
Post #3
Joined: 12.Aug.2005

QUOTE (west_wind @ 26.Aug.2017, 05:44 AM) *
I am extremely lucky to live in New Zealand. Here, we are in one of the last outposts of free speech, and we can pretty much say whatever we want to about anything - unlike Eu ... (show full quote)


New Zealand prohibits hate speech under the Human Rights Act 1993. Section 61 (Racial Disharmony) makes it unlawful to publish or distribute "threatening, abusive, or insulting...matter or words likely to excite hostility against or bring into contempt any group of persons...on the ground of the colour, race, or ethnic or national or ethnic origins of that group of persons". Section 131 (Inciting Racial Disharmony) lists offences for which "racial disharmony" creates liability.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_...eedom_of_speech


Also, you have a BLASPHEMY LAW. How retarded is that? We don't!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_New_Zealand

Oh look. You were talking out of your arse. Who would have thunk it! Your limitations in freedom of speech are much the same as they are in most other places.

How do you have time writing all this kak? You retired? What an utter waste of time.
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west_wind
post 26.Aug.2017, 06:37 AM
Post #4
Joined: 23.Aug.2017

Hi again all -

Thanks for your comments, egads and Twiceshy! In the spirit of free speech, I welcome them!

I *am* concerned about the direction in which Sweden (and the whole of the West) are going, and I am not alone in that.
Many people in many countries share my concern. The concern that our countries' culture will have the same fate as that of countries like Afghanistan (which was once Buddhist).

I am concerned about the West. If that makes me "nasty, horrible, <insert epithet here>" then so be it.

I will mention a few facts here - no emotion, just facts and reasoning.

I have studied Islam extensively (albeit informally) over the last 18 or so years. The fact that this study has been informal should not
discount it - many experts in various fields have done their study informally - Mary Anning in archaeology, for example.

I do not like the ideology of Islam but I will give reasons for this. I will also prove that it is an ideology and political system rather than a religion.

Why do I not like it?
Fact one - In the last 1400 years, the followers of Islam have killed an estimated 270 million people (and counting).
Source data here - https://www.politicalislam.com/tears-of-jihad/

This is **vastly** more people than the ideologies of Naziism and Communism combined.

Sheesh... the question that should be asked throughout the world is not "why do you dislike Islam?" but "why does anyone in the West *like* Islam, given its history and what is in its texts?" )


Fact two - there are over 500 verses in the Koran that are hateful or intolerant towards non-Muslims (here they all are) -
http://dttj.blogspot.com/2010/08/intoleran...s-in-quran.html

Fact three - there are over 100 verses in the Koran that call on Muslims to wage war against non-Muslims - here they are -
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx

If someone asked me "why do you hate Naziism?", I'd say "because it is a hateful ideology". I have proved here (using the **Islamic texts themselves** and the history of Islam) that the same can be said of Islam.
People are free to agree or disagree with me, but at least I have given *solid* reasons for my views.

In the West, Islam gets a "free pass" as a "belief system" because of the widespread (but incorrect) view that it is a "religion".
I dispel this view below.

Let me state here that *facts are facts*. People may not like them (and that is ok), but they are facts nonetheless. Such is the case with what I will say here.

Why is Islam an ideology?

Proof one
64 percent of text in the Koran is about those *outside* of Islam! ( Those that Islam calls "kafir" - I don't like that term but it is used in Islam so blame Islam! ) Source data here - http://www.cspipublishing.com/statistical/...votedKafir.html

I'll bet folks here did not know that... smile.gif

So, this is like me writing a book that is 2/3rds about (say) mountains and then claiming that it is about (say) kittens!

Call me finicky, but no-one can claim that a "belief system" is a religion when almost 2/3rds of its most important text is about those outside of it!

Oh, but that's not all. There is more...


Proof two - Islam covers a *vast* number of aspects of everyday life. To get a feel for this, let's look at what is called "fiqh" - Islamic jurisprudence. The Wikipedia article on this topic will suffice.

Fiqh covers the following areas -

Criminal law
Economics law
Etiquette law
Hygienical law
Inheritance law
Marital law
Military law
Political law
Theological law <--- here is the "religious" part of Islam.

As can be seen, the religious aspect of Islam is but a very thin veneer on top of the rest.

Conclusion - Islam is undoubtedly an ideology and political system rather than a religion.

Thank you all for your time.
west_wind

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west_wind
post 26.Aug.2017, 08:35 AM
Post #5
Joined: 23.Aug.2017

Hi all -


I've found a great website here that puts things **beautifully**.
Well worth checking out -

http://formermuslimsunited.org/about/mission-statement/

I quote their mission statement - (bold text highlighted by me)

Quote - "Former Muslims United does not criticize any religion, in the sense that the religion is practiced as a personal relationship with God. But if a religion expands itself to become a one party totalitarian state, ruled by an elaborate legal system controlling every aspect of private and public life, and requiring the killing and incitement of violence against those who leave it, then that religion cannot be immune from criticism. It is no longer a private religion, but has become instead a totalitarian dictatorship. It is in this sense, since Islam’s apostasy laws condemn former Muslims to death and allows vigilante violence against apostates, that Islam itself has opened itself to criticism. "

End quote.

Very well said!

west_wind.
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Mistress_Of_Doom
post 26.Aug.2017, 10:04 AM
Post #6
Joined: 14.Mar.2016

Have you ever even been in Sweden? If not, I don't think you have the right to criticise using your knowledge learned from the internet.
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axiom
post 26.Aug.2017, 10:32 AM
Post #7
Location: Stockholm
Joined: 24.May.2011

Sweden is doing just fine. Please leave it to Swedish citizens to shape their future.
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west_wind
post 26.Aug.2017, 10:34 AM
Post #8
Joined: 23.Aug.2017

QUOTE (Mistress_Of_Doom @ 26.Aug.2017, 11:04 AM) *
Have you ever even been in Sweden?


No, I haven't.

QUOTE (Mistress_Of_Doom)
If not, I don't think you have the right to criticise using your knowledge learned from the internet.


If something I have said is not true, I welcome being corrected!

However.... is it not true that none other than the National Police Commissioner in Sweden pleaded for help recently?

Is it not true that the number of "no-go" zones is on the increase in Sweden?

It is also true that a number of *Swedes* have criticised the situation in the country in recent times. I very much doubt if *any* of them (let alone all of them) are wrong.

It isn't necessary to go to the moon in order to know a great deal about it.

In any case - I will bet that there are a huge number of critics of (say) the United States who have never been there either, so they too would be unable to criticise it using your logic.

In fact - it is possible for people outside a country to know *more* about what is happening in it than those who are there (if the country's government and/or media try to block coverage of bad things).

Sweden's media are known worldwide as not exactly being the most open (both to their own people and to the world).

west_wind

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axiom
post 26.Aug.2017, 10:34 AM
Post #9
Location: Stockholm
Joined: 24.May.2011

QUOTE (west_wind @ 26.Aug.2017, 06:37 AM) *
Conclusion - Islam is undoubtedly an ideology and political system rather than a religion. . . Thank you all for your time. . west_wind



You mean like what Christianity did in Europe for 100s of years and to a large extent still do?

Gimme a break and stay down under.
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Svedallas
post 26.Aug.2017, 10:46 AM
Post #10
Joined: 21.Apr.2016

QUOTE (Mistress_Of_Doom @ 26.Aug.2017, 11:04 AM) *
Have you ever even been in Sweden? If not, I don't think you have the right to criticise using your knowledge learned from the internet.



QUOTE (axiom @ 26.Aug.2017, 11:32 AM) *
Sweden is doing just fine. Please leave it to Swedish citizens to shape their future.


"( I hope to in the near future do a few posts - 100 percent fact-based - about Islam, but I am focusing on "freedom of speech" in this post. )
I am extremely lucky to live in New Zealand. Here, we are in one of the last outposts of free speech, and we can pretty much say whatever we want to about anything - unlike Europe and the UK, unfortunately."


Really?
Yes. Take your thoughts elsewhere. Find another forum.

This is a forum Swedish residents/ex residents and citizens.
Do not bring your hate here. It is NOT welcome.
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Bsmith
post 26.Aug.2017, 12:24 PM
Post #11
Joined: 25.Jun.2009

OP, I agree with your assessment of Islam but I must ask, as a person who does not live in nor has never even been to Sweden, what is your agenda here?
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Twiceshy
post 26.Aug.2017, 12:54 PM
Post #12
Joined: 12.Aug.2005

QUOTE (west_wind @ 26.Aug.2017, 07:37 AM) *
Thanks for your comments, egads and Twiceshy! In the spirit of free speech, I welcome them!


Next time, try answering the statements put therein instead of sounding like a magnanimous person with autism.

Fact: New Zealand has hate-speech laws, much like other countries.
Fact: New Zealand has BLASPHEMY LAWS, which is fkn outrageous.

Does this make you want to alter your claim that New Zealand is "one of the last outposts of free speech"?

After you have honestly answered that, we can deal with your child-like understanding of theology. That is, if we can find a bearing on it vis-a-vis the great country of Sweden. Failing that, you are just another spammer.
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intrepidfox
post 26.Aug.2017, 01:05 PM
Post #13
Location: Gothenburg
Joined: 18.Jul.2012

Come on. Half of the people on this site do not live or have never lived in Sweden.

I am glad that somebody wants to talk about muslims as it is these people that are ruining Sweden

ps i have live here almost 30 years and seen the changes
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Twiceshy
post 26.Aug.2017, 01:20 PM
Post #14
Joined: 12.Aug.2005

QUOTE (intrepidfox @ 26.Aug.2017, 02:05 PM) *
Come on. Half of the people on this site do not live or have never lived in Sweden.


And they should F*k off, IMO. If they haven't lived, and do not plan to live here, then Nigerian spammers are just as much on topic as the tool above.
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intrepidfox
post 26.Aug.2017, 02:12 PM
Post #15
Location: Gothenburg
Joined: 18.Jul.2012

QUOTE (Twiceshy @ 26.Aug.2017, 01:20 PM) *
And they should F*k off, IMO. If they haven't lived, and do not plan to live here, then Nigerian spammers are just as much on topic as the tool above.


Rubbish. Why? We already get the spammers which we delete. GH has never been here before, should he also fuck off? Many people are interested in Sweden even if they do not live here. Half the time the only realistic and truthful news about this country is reported by the foreign press. Let them discusss regardeless the topic.

FFS just look at this site now. It´s just questions about immigration that nobody can answer except MV. Lets get rid of these posts as well and have a fun site again
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