February 13, 2012
Published: 7 Aug 09 11:55 CET | Double click on a word to get a translation
Online: http://www.thelocal.se/21164/20090807/
The Swedish Equality Ombudsman (Diskrimineringsombudsmannen - DO) has launched a probe into a case of alleged discrimination at an adult education centre in Stockholm. Two women claim they were not allowed to attend school because they wear veils that only show the area around the eyes.
What do you think? Leave your comment below.
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What if a collectivity think that a niquab is against the will of God -- or even human common sense?
When I'm not happy somewere because of my difference, I change myself or I get out. That it !
Respect of the values and cultur of a community is essential to protect each cultur.
Each cultur have the right to prosper on its way, that the big idea behind the nations.
Good call.
my personal opinion they should not allow any one either naked or fully covered like niqab. they should dress decently thats it.
" Gay parade is allowed "
but if someone tries to veil itself it is prohibited
May be this is modernism ?
The niqab is more of a cultural thing of many centuries ago and clothing of those days had a lot to do with the weather, sand storms etc. One can approach this from various viewpoints and sadly, I feel the niqab question will be defeated in most of them.
"No one has the position or the authority to tell a person you cannot do this because of the way you look, or because of what you believe or the colour of your skin"
So this mean an naturist will be allowed to work fully naked in a muslim library ??? do you understand exactly what yopu writte ???
Just for fun lets flip this a bit, how about if we non-muslims wanted to be shirtless (guys) and (girls) in a top piece bikini and jeans in say...50 meters from a mosque (note: NOT in the mosque) just very close to it. And we did that everyday because the shade keeps us cooler.
How long before things get violent or there are complaints?
I studied with some women who covered themselves when i was in SFI, very decent people (just avoid talk about "bad" subjects like religion or politics/George Bush) - but it was still was a bit hard to communicate with the ninjas.
" Gay parade is allowed "
but if someone tries to veil itself it is prohibited
Gay parade don´t go thru muslims quatters cause it would be interpreted as provocation by muslims.....just like the niqab is interpreted as provocation by many....hehehe
Yes i understand clearly... i do understand what your are trying to point out!!!
LOL i dont know about working naked in a religious library but i do know, it probably won't happen if we were in their country and in this day and age i am with you on that one..
But i also think two wrongs dont make a right...
Sweden is a civilised country... even though i personally dont agree with covering up to that extreme. I guess its a touchy subject... they also say "do as the Romans do in Rome"... its my opinion i dont agree with the covering of someones face and long clothing but i also would not accept someone telling me to change or i cant be something or someone...
Only Two thing have no limits, the size of universe and human stupidity....If you want to live in harmony with your neighbours you must have limits in the way you talk, dress, act.....
If you believe in anarchy then bandits heavily armed will rule....
Niqab or Burka is the sign of islamism and not islam......just like the KKK is the sign of racism. Both are horrible ideologies.
If this is really a developed and civilized Sweden then every body has the right to follow his/her own religion and culture.
By the way it is extremely non-sense ( sorry for using such words ) that women can not attend the class just because she has a niqab.
Now will swedish tell to other people how to follow their religion and other things like how to eat, sit, sleep and defecate ?
The word defecation was just used for the angryness after reading this news because how people can say that if they live in our country (in sweden) then they must follow and respect our culture, no matter if what ever their religion demands them.
I have also one question to those people who says such things that if tomorrow you go to any muslim country , then will you change your religious views,believes, practice and culture according to their country ?
One of the hillarous photos I've seen lately was about a driving license of a woman wearing niqab. It is just self-explanatory stupidity incompatible with the western civilisation.
just sayin'.
.
That's just the tolerance level in a muslim country.
they think that they are still in pakistan or afghanistan
the girls are making two mistakes . one by wearing wrong dressing. and second complaining to authorities about discrimination. few weeks back in germany one mad man killed a egyptian woman under similar circumstances in a courtroom.some people with burkhas and some people naked in the same class. dont misuse the freedom.
In this age of suicide bombings one cannot feel safe around anyone who is wearing a tent and disguising headgear.
Headscarfs are fine but ban the other.
We had that happen in Canada. A Muslim woman didn't want the photo on her driver's license with her face exposed. We told her if photo then no driver's license.
There are limits on how far host countries should be willing to accomodate these people.
In this case she should not have been expelled because her classmates did not object to her dress. In my opinion, scarf is fine and burqa is not.
In major cities of Pakistan, it is not common to run into women wearing burka (most women cover part of their head (by scarf or dupata), some don't cover their head and very few wear burka). It might even be much harder to find a good job (doctor, engineer, lawyer, etc) in Pakistan wearing burka compared to Europe because in Europe you can go to court for discrimination.
Setting religious argument aside, I do not approve of Niqaab because it is not practical in Sweden. Either adopt to acceptable ways (scarf) or leave would be better.
2nd an extreme(in majority of the Muslim countries it is regarded as extreme) presentation in a foreign does not entitle you to accuse them of discrimination all the time and get compensation. Because Quran stats clearly that respect the local laws wherever you go.
These people are responsible to ignite clashes of civilization/cultures debate.
Best practice is use scarf which is allowed by Islam and respect where you living.
Ex President of US Mr Bush do not have a beard at all but can you even imagine how many innocent people he killed and then in the last he justify his evils and sins just by saying ''sorry I did not find any weapons of mass destruction in iraq''. What will your modern views and civilization says on that?
So please do not mix this issue with things like beard and stoned to death like things. It is all media war where you can easily make an evil ''hero'' and a normal person to a bad person.
And also tolerance is not only shown by words, it is more shown by acts. So do acts, so that we can proudly says that you people are more tolerant.
Lastly to your saying, by the way who issue that driving licence ? Will you also like to comment on that?
how stupid it is wearing a too much cloths in the summer.
i think they under pressure from somewhere.
Wow, will you refer me that particular Quran which you studied that now you are passing such baseless comments in genaral. It may be your own thinking but please dont try to proof it in the light of Quran.
Also you mentioned that Quran tells that obey the law where you live.Ok agree but can you also tell me what Quran tells about women parda/niqab ?
if we talk about crimes commited by george bush or saddam hussen or bin landen or pol pot, chengees khan its a long list.
there are many oil rich countries like norway or venezula not only irak. the war on irak and afghanistan is pure politics. americans just used stupidity of muslim culture.
If you agree my point that obey the law where you live, this proves the whole point. Not only mine but also the schools decision.
I have not invented my own Quran, Quran is same for the eternity.
These seems to be some US bashing. Did they influence any of this?
one should adapt to the local culture or get out. that is common sense. no need to read quran or bible or some other book to understand this simple fact.
Sadly some Swedish are naïve enough to miss that point...
I think such extremists burn the schools for girls and treat them like animals. They are against the women to work and contribute to the society.
About the photo: sorry, I have to search again for it.
Did this article mentioned that this women is from Pakistan or Afghanistan. You see this is the problem of civilized people that they dont think of themself and just sit infront of the TV news and picks wrong ideas about all muslims in the world.
As I said before that this a media war and game and you put all dirty things on these countries without knowing reality.
You are trying to proof that muslims as they are from third world countries so they have no manners but friend you may be from highly civilized country, so think before you speak and dont use loose words like saying stupid to other people.
So leave my IQ but kindly act as civilized people and use good langauge.
Religion have nothing to do with freedom.
I don't want to wake up in a muslim country in twenty years just because I open my arms today.
@Eurostan, before passing your golden comments (lol) about this issue, you must know that women wear niqab not because to protect themself from pollution and dust. It is a religious sign for muslim womens.
It is true that some changes need to be made about this but this takes time. Lots of it just as it had probably taken many generations for their faith to have developed to that level.
We should appreciate the fact that these women are trying to gain an education 4 themselves, that they have tried to make adjustments in class as mentioned in the article but was deemed 'not good enough' and that she did not solely depend on the school to find her a practical spot but that she realised the difficulties it might raise and found one herself.
I see it as an encouraging albeit small step in the right direction.
Also islamic men always think good for women in general. Due to few ill-cases you can not blame on majority of muslims and so good and bad people are found in every society and religion and believe me Islam was/is and will never never shame for women dignity. Infact it is the islam which teaches us the women respect in a true sense and not use women like a goats and so on..
Are you among those 1?
A simple question. Should we respect the ways and values of a foreign country and their laws????
If yes, than extreme people should accept the change or LEAVE.
Is there any ambiguity in this?????
@magic1964, no one is abusing to sweden, so dont be so emotional, we all love this country equally but we all have freedom to express our words openly. So please dont take this topic to another side, apart from few (who try to justify their statement by using abusive words) rest all readers are well educated, you can not divert readers from the original topic.
LOL
how do you come to sweden. you dont fit in sweden. dont argue with logicless arguments.
swedes respect your cultrue. you must behave accordingly and try to preserve that respect . if muslims are continuing like this without adapting to swedish culture the day will come in future they throw you out forcebily.
Now you are getting personel and you start personel attacks on me which I think does not suit to most of the civilized swedish people.
According to you I am not fit in sweden...Yes this may be your thinking and you can not impose your thinking on others, also it can be only say by sick person because I did not do any personnel attack on any body like you . I just say what I think is correct as a freedom of Expression but you are now really getting personel with me.
If you have your thoughts and feelings, you just post in a decent way but if you behave like this then what is the difference between you and illetrate.
Europe should decide what it can tolerate and what is not acceptable. This will be better for both locals and future immigrants (who can decide not to come here if they find these restrictions too harsh).
I forget to mention one thing in response to your last comments. According to you we should respect swedish culture. Yes we did. Look my other comments on other news titles. So I respect swedish culture and people as my owns. I like most of the things here, thats why I am here.
you told that you like swedish culture then follow it. if you came as a student for short stay then its ok not to follow swedish culture. but if you want build house and family and children in sweden or some other country you must leave your culture and follow the host country culture without exceptions
I also wonder how this is racism. The practice of covering your face in class is banned not specifying the race or religion of the person.
Only stupid or naïve Swedes don´t get that point....
I just read how a sect in Nigeria forced christians to convert and them slaughter them using knives.
Muslims cry wolf when they are asked to conform a little bit in the west but they compel every lady that comes to the Middle East to dress in Islamic manner.
What about a tit-for-tat? Let's have a church in Saudi Arabia just like there is mosque in Rome.
Tabari IX:113 "Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an."
Somebody tell me how long you would last on a street in a muslim country without being 'properly covered'?
They need to be also flexible.
So in the end we need to talk money...this girls project is basecly live on welfare payed by workers. Now I understand why so many muslims love to come to Sweden.......
- do have the right to ban burqas
- do not have the right to ban headscarves
The ban on burqas was the result of a joint investigation into the issue by JO/Skolverket aound 5 years ago as a result of 2 girls at a gymnasiet in Western Sweden who demanded the right to wear Burqas. The result of the investigation - was that schools have the right to ban the burqa. However much of the discussion around the ruling came down to saftey (PE/Science) and pedogogical issues of teachers not being able to make contact
http://www.skolverket.se/sb/d/246/a/501
However schools have no right to have blanket bans on headcoverings such as headscarves or yarmulke - as it is an infriengement on religious freedom. An independent school (Minervaskolan i Umeå AB) was criticised after an girl was forced to leave the school when the headteacher refused to let her attend wearing it - pointing to a rule that said "outdoor clothing must be removed"
http://www.skolverket.se/sb/d/1271/a/6361
So it will be interesting to see where the niqab places among the current regulations
- it may in part depend on specific requirements of the course
Christian living in our country should also be then forced to live according to our culture? Is that what you want to say and prove with your comments ?? Can you show me any mosque here with proper Aazan ( call for prayers) while in my country lot of churches and thier sounds of bells but we never say that stop those bell ringing sounds because we disturbed. So who are more tolerant ?
Tolerance is not only shown by words but also by acts and I am seeing urs people tolerance levels especially on this issue.
What about almost every day news of rapping and murder of young and innocent women in your country ? Is this is ur culture where you can not save your womens?
So why you targeting all muslims as a bad in ur comments, go for individual case. Did we target whole christians?? So good and bad people must be everywhere regardless of country and their religion.
You don´t get respect and sympati by being offensive and provoking !!!!!! but this takes a bit of IQ.
which muslim country has lot churches and making sounds?
now sweden is not chritian. majority of swedish people think that only idiots with low IQ believe in god. thats why you never find people in churches. lots of churches closed down.
No one can say that he want respect by being offensive and provoking, so I dont know how to comment on your post when you divert from real issue and just firing words in air and trying to prove yourself with high IQ. Lol
@Eurostan
I can cry for your comments and laugh on your IQ and knowledge.
By the way you are also calling your own elders as an idiots because your elders still believe on God. So respect your elders, they are also precious part of your community, they are not just born to give you birth and then to be kept in old people houses.
Also it does not make any difference to me that whether you believe on God or not? So keep your personel views upto you , i have no interest at all.
Do you understand that the burqa is not just a simple religious dress code ?? this dress also show support to the most fanatics side of Islam.....just like wearing the KKK dress show support to racism?? Im amazed about how naïve and ignorant some Swedes can be....
I dont know why they react in such a way. Where are other swedes ? May be these comments are from minority and not majority but it really make us sad. I still do not believe that how can be a swedish act like a racist.
With respect, burqa is not a sign of culture, it is more related with religion. Islam ask a women to cover yourself properly. This is what I want to proof that please (to all readers) do not consider a burqa for culture only. It is more related with religion view. So a person can not leave his or her religion just because he is now living here.
Regarding the rights of a women, I am dead sure that Islam is the only religion which gives complete rights to all womens regardless of their religion. Unfortunately if that is not practicing in some countries because of the one or the other materialistic reasons....so for that you can not blame or point out a religion.
Before Islam women were buried alive under the soil, for the first time it was the Islam which gives order to respect yours women and do not treat them ill.
@Nilspet, I agree with you except the part of being recruited to top jobs at ABB. We all know how hard it is for a immigrant to find work in Sweden.
Please keep to the topic
I can't believe this. Do you actually believe the crap you're spewing? Burqas is a discrimination against women and women aren't equal in Islam, if you claim they are you don't know what the word means or you're consciously lying or you're plain stupid. I believe you're lying or maybe you've been brainwashed.
You can say whatever you want about respecting women, the Muslims themselves tend not to. 17.6% of Sweden's population was born abroad or has had two parents born abroad and not all of them are Muslims. Now, from those few % you see things that has never happened in any other ethic group. First honorary killings happens some Muslim girls for having sex or a relationship with a non Muslim, then parents kidnapping their daughters to force them into marriage with a Muslim, some gets raped if the refuse, like the latest case that was in the newspapers. Why only from your ethnic group?
I´m surprised you put me in the same league with Browneyes and Nipset cause from the begining I say that Niqab or burqas are clear signs of:
-Discrimination and humiliation against wohman
-Clear support to countries like Iran or fanatics groups like Hamas
-Clear sign of provoking and offense Swedish society
-And.....cause it´s the most ugly, horrible and disgusting dress I can imagine !!!!!!!!!!
http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge/misogynist.htm
Apart from detailing Islam's misogynistic views and doctrines concerning females, it makes the indisputable point that this misogyny is as damaging to males as to females and to society overall, which helps to explain why Moslem nations function so poorly in every respect. It is totally misunderstanding the notion of 'tolerance' that we should 'tolerate' the intolerance of Islam.
I've only read aftonbladet and expressen until a few months ago when I found this site so I'm not sure if they cover the same stories but assuming they do, just how many cases of group rapes have you read about? One 14/15 year old raped by 5-8 Muslims or 3-5 Africans, that is not an unusual story and it only exists in a minority, now tell me, is that respect? Neither of those things exists in any other ethnic group, Not among Swedes or Asians or South Americans. Just you. Don't twist this because I haven't said that all or even most Muslims are like that but I am however saying that it happens way too frequently. FYI I like Iran way better than Iraq and Turkey.
Does anyone have any idea how you can keep the bad ones out? And is it possible to make a law that says that rapists and murderers can be thrown out of the country after serving their time (naturally native Swedes too)?
I am talking from the point of view of the Swedish law. I never went into details of what those dresses mean. What do you think about young kids dressing up like satanists? Do they offend you? Do you get offended by dresses from other cultures or only islamic dresses? I am non religious but I really do think that you cannot discriminate people just because of the way the dress. What the dresses mean is another story which I am not going to go into detail. If you have not traveled to world, you should do it otherwise you are just like a frog under the the leaf.
I must be really unclear or something.
1. I am not offended by dresses believe it or not, I am however angered that some women believe it to be morally wrong not to wear a dress. In Sweden you shouldn't wear a dress because you grew up learning it's wrong not to.
2. I have never seen anyone who dresses like a satanist. Or are you talking about goths? They are weird but certainly not offending :D.. they however do not wear what they wear because they believe they are bad ppl if they do not.
3. I am not discriminating anyone and I probably wouldn't discriminate someone because of how they dress but maybe their are some really weird to dress yourself.. I hate all ppl who rapes, murders, robs, steals etc but there is just something more offending about an immigrant and even worse a refugee committing a crime. That's like.. I take that personally. The reason I am turning to Muslim criminals here is because of the article, nothing and no one else is relevant.