Smacking kids is never acceptable: Swedish politician

Published: 12 Aug 09 16:38 CET | Double click on a word to get a translation
Online: http://www.thelocal.se/21270/20090812/

Thirty years have passed since Sweden banned parents from smacking their children. But Liberal Party MP Helena Bargholtz is dismayed to learn that New Zealand is holding a referendum to reintroduce the practice.

I am so disappointed learning from the Swedish media about the referendum in New Zealand as to whether corporal punishment should be reintroduced.

Hitting people is wrong - and children are people too. Corporal punishment of children breaches their fundamental rights to respect for their human dignity and physical integrity.

Its legality breaches their right to equal protection under the law. The rights of all children – the smallest and most fragile of people - must be fully respected.

The UN Convention on the Rights of the Child requires States, in its article 19, to protect children from ‘all forms of physical and mental violence’ while in the care of parents and others. The fact that corporal punishment of children is legal in many countries, unlike other forms of inter-personal violence, challenges the universal right to equal protection under the law.

Hitting children is also a dangerous practice, which can cause physical and psychological injury and even death. Corporal punishment is identified by research as a significant factor in the development of violent attitudes and actions, both in childhood and later life. It inhibits or prevents positive child development and positive forms of discipline. Promoting positive, non-violent forms of discipline empowers parents and reduces family stress.

In previous centuries, special defences existed in legislation in many states to justify corporal punishment of wives, servants, slaves and apprentices. Violence to women remains far too prevalent, but in most states it is no longer defended in legislation. It is paradoxical and an affront to humanity that the smallest and most vulnerable of people should have less protection from assault than adults.

In Sweden, there has been a ban on subjecting children to spanking since 1979. It goes without saying that this ban has not ended all forms of violence to children in our country. But it is obvious that attitudes towards violence and the use of physical punishment have changed for the better and today there is strong public opinion in favour of the Swedish anti-spanking law.

Available data show that no more than 11 per cent of the adult population in Sweden are positively inclined to even minor forms of physical punishment. Studies by Statistics Sweden show that spanking has become less common in our society. Attitudes have changed substantially since 1965 when a similar study was done. The Swedish Parental Code prohibiting the spanking of children has played an important role in this positive development.

During the last two decades, reporting of child abuse and neglect has increased. There is no clear evidence indicating a corresponding increase in actual cases of child abuse in Sweden. Everything points to other explanations such as better awareness and knowledge of children in vulnerable situations. As mentioned above, attitudes in society have also changed: people today are less willing to accept violence against children. Another reason is that the reporting obligations under the Social Welfare Act have been strengthened and many more groups of professionals are now obliged to report children at risk - so fewer cases of child abuse and neglect fail to come to the attention of the social welfare authorities.

In other countries, where corporal punishment is not prohibited, for example the USA and Canada, the number of reports of child abuse and neglect has also increased. In Belgium, the numbers have increased by almost 70 per cent between 1986 and 1992.

The State's obligation under the Convention on the Rights of the Child demands that all measures must be undertaken for the implementation of the rights recognized in the Convention. Legislation is only one of the measures, but it is an important statement from society that we are no longer accepting physical chastisement of children.

When the Bill on the anti-spanking law was put forward a member of the Swedish Parliament said: "If we as parents cannot convince our children with words, then we shall never convince them with violence."

What do you think? Leave your comment below.

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20:24 August 12, 2009 by arnuxii
Considering the murder rate in Sweden is about 2x that in New Zealand perhaps Helena Bargholtz is confused about the relationship between spanking and violent crime

That is the trouble with the Swedish left wing liberal belief system, it is all mindless dogma but no science and no facts, it just sounds good
21:14 August 12, 2009 by kenny8076
jesus you cant name your children whatever you want in sweden, now im learning you cant pop your 3 year old in the butt for misbehaving? how about the government worry about why they dont have enough apartments and housing for its citizens then worry about me spanking my child! my parents spanked me and im here to say if they didnt i wouldnt have listended to NO when i was a kid!!! its so wierd how different two cultures and societys are.
21:23 August 12, 2009 by Emfa
From http://www.voteno.org.nz/faq.htm#sweden I can read that [quote]Research has shown that the Swedish smacking ban has done more harm than good. Following the banning of smacking in Sweden, child abuse increased 489%…[/quote]Here in Sweden, parents tend to use punishments that damage kids psychologically/mentally (In my opinion, this lasts forever)
02:50 August 13, 2009 by Leprehcaun
Well..

well well well well.

Isn't that great?! First "the limit is 1 000 characters, you've written 2500"

Then, after writing about another 1 000 "comment rejected because of profanity"! OMFG

I'll use other words.

Wanting to spank children bad. Me want ppl in favor using of that ending their lives. Happily me by. Me thinks those ppl who want other ppl to hurt because of lack of anger management and poor parenting should be castrated and hurtened. Happily me by.

Me thinks you horrible ppl try should to spank someone who can defend him/herself and see what happens. Ofc, you're too cowardly to do something like that. Try to spank me, I'll send you to the hospital. How's that for profanity?! How is, "NOT spanking children is morally wrong" not profane? A stand by that no one who can raise a child would ever need to resort to violence and then there's something disturbing that crossed my mind. Spanking gives some adults sexual pleasure.
03:15 August 13, 2009 by tigger007
what the hell is this? NO SPANKING!! kids are foolish by nature and need to be discipline. you can spank your kids without harming them or killings them. spanking should be used on a case by case basis and not the any tool for punishment. children need to know their place and have boundaries, if a child doesn't get these boundaries early in life they can become menace to sociality later in life. good discipline makes good sense in producing productive members of sociality. Emfa you are talking about abuse and NOT discipline. how was you discipline?
04:05 August 13, 2009 by jimmyjames
There is the utopian fantasy world and there is the real world; In the real world policemen carry weapons because without the implied threat of physical force their orders would have no validity, In the real world nations have armies in order to, ironically, that is what keeps the peace, in the home if you tell your child not to run out into the street and he does it anyway ( as children are going to do ) you spank his butt. Not because you are evil, or a sadist, or bully, BUT BECAUSE YOU DO NOT WANT YOUR CHILD RUN OVER BY A TRUCK LIKE A STRAY DOG !! and you do not have the luxury of time or conversation or repeated psychological Bull Crap methods when your 3 year olds life is at stake !! This is why New Zealand will still be a nation in 200 years and Sweden probably will not......at least in any meaningful way.
04:09 August 13, 2009 by JaguarOgat
There's a difference between a smack and blow struck in anger. When your child comes home bloody from the school playground, don't you wish that the parents of the bully that hurt him had taken that kid aside and shown him how it feels to have someone bigger and more powerful hit you?

When you toddler is reaching for a pot on the stove, or playing with an electrical cord - isn't a single swat on the arm far more effective and instructive than a "time out"? Might that swat not save that child serious injury the next time they think of messing with something dangerous?

If a spanking is your default punishment for everything, then yes - you have a problem. If it is reserved for safety issues and severe infractions - I think it has a place in a parent's disciplinary repertoire.
05:05 August 13, 2009 by Hedley
Politicians live in Middle Earth, Neptune or any other place different from Earth.

It happens everywhere!

Of course, burning toddler is wrong, however minor punishment and reward is a good method for understanding social and health rules.

Let's see: humans ARE ANIMALS! however, we are RATIONAL animals. Nevertheless, as the age increases, our rational capabilities increases, indeed an infant and a toddler are fellas who are not capable to make rational conclusions about a boiling tea kettle, poo, dressing or an electric cord. If you allow to play with these dangerous stuff he/she can day or become handicapped!

How does these INTELIGENT AND SMART politician prevent playing these extreme sports in an toddler or a little kid? Just saying a big NO or let them playing with matches to learn about pain. Pain is an important part of development!
09:31 August 13, 2009 by ooh456
Sometimes you gotta spank a kid. If you do it all the time or cause damage then you should go to jail. What's so hard to figure out about that?
10:45 August 13, 2009 by Noxtion
This is a reason that I do not wish to raise a child in Sweden. Though that is a plus with population and what not.

But I was spanked as a kid and it did me good. Though its usually the mother who spanks their kids where I'm from.

A child needs to be put into place, time out's work for only so much. Eventually your child will rebel and just decide not to stay in the corner. Then what? What can you do? With out a little pop on the hand or rump, what is stopping them from being holy terrors?

Children need strict environments at times, depending on their personality. Some kids learn that something is wrong and bad, logging it in that they shouldn't do it again. Other's, not so much.

I believe that a lack of discipline here shows with all the graffiti and trashed public areas. Something needs to change, the politicians need to look at that. Sweden is in need of better rules.
11:24 August 13, 2009 by nneville
There are some very valid points here and I think we mostly agree that discipline is not only the right of the parent but a neccessity in establishing and reinforcing rules for smaller children. However, putting the obvious abuse question aside that none of us would tolerate, Sweden makes no legal distinction between any physical use of discipline. Meaning that giving a neccessary tap on the hand, a firm singular smack on the bottom, or restraining a child to closed and safe quarters - are all the same offence of a violent act against a child by law.

N Sweden local areas get paid for each child they put under social care. It is turning into a business.

You do not have any parental rights to discipline your child with any physical use or restraint in Sweden. And they wonder why there have been 5 murders n 6 weeks commited by children 18 and younger. I bet thier parents let them run with scissors.
12:28 August 13, 2009 by Marc the Texan
I think legislation is where this becomes a problem. Drawing the line between restraint, a tap, singular slap with something more severe becomes a technicality where parents can be intimidated by the state on judgment where reasonable people can disagree. I think having a law that draws a hard line is really ill-suited to this kind of thing.

I think the better approach is to encourage a culture of favoring other options ahead of corporal punishment. I think corporal punishment has been in decline in most Western countries as a matter of cultural change and others Western countries did not require legislation.
13:00 August 13, 2009 by si
The reason behind the banning of corporal punishment in NZ stems from it's repetitve use as a defence in child abuse cases. From a legal perspective having the ban seems the better option - Law or no law the occurance of people being dragged through the courts for harmless smacking is fairly non-existant...
13:55 August 13, 2009 by Kaethar
So many people here for spank their children...

Question: Why did you move to Sweden?!

Hopefully someone will see you and report you. :)
14:34 August 13, 2009 by Jackmel
I just had to register so I could comment.

Are you all serious about justifying slapping a child and not just any child but your own.If a stranger slapped your child you would go crazy and report them to the Police .So whats the deference ?
15:00 August 13, 2009 by Leprehcaun
You say that violent crimes increases if you don't use violence against your child. The first person said that the murder rate here is twice as high as in New Zealand and that it is so because that all violence against children is illegal.

Look at this. Sweden isn't on this list but Norway and Denmark are, they are about the same, it's illegal there too. Well take a look:

http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita&b_map=1

Can someone explain to me how Iceland can be on that list while Sweden isn't?
15:25 August 13, 2009 by Dave_the_rave
ok theres smaking and theres smaking, I understand the man is bigger than the child part, but children old enough to understand will try it on time after time and history dicatates to us that they will continue when they are older until the police use force on them at which time its too late. So is it ok for the police to use force when the parents can't? are the parents not the police to their children?
15:26 August 13, 2009 by Mucker
Spanking gets banned in Sweden and violent crime rises? Who says that the two are in any way related? What a load of under-graduate tripe.

I was never hit as a child, and turned out to be fine. I will never hit my child either. In my mind, many people who hit children are doing it for their own benefit and not that of the child's
15:48 August 13, 2009 by futureishere
Spanking is an extremely effective tool to discipline your child. My mom spanked me only once in a while, but most of the times she gave me an angry glare which reminded of what's coming if I don't straighten up. I don't think that glare would have worked if I knew that's the worst that can happen!
15:48 August 13, 2009 by Dave_the_rave
my mrs has a great school uniform and she enjoys a good spanking! probably have to put a stop then in case she reports me and I get the handcuff treatment....
16:39 August 13, 2009 by Leprehcaun
Children don't do what their parents tells to do, they do what their parents does. If you behave, follow the law and is respectful they will also behave that way. If you or just one you shows that hitting people is OK if you are angry then they will do that too (in the eyes of a child you are always angry when you punish them, find me a person who is happy when he/she is violent).

"Spanking is an extremely effective tool to discipline your child"

Because it scares them. They are afraid of you, they stop doing things that makes you angry because they don't want to get hurt, not because they know it is right or wrong.

Basically you just need to teach a child (well.. more or less brainwash (though positive in this case)) that it is wrong to do wrong things and that you don't do wrong things, without making them think about why it is wrong. It's about just accepting it as a fact, like that you need air to breath, never thinking about trying to do something in a different way.
17:24 August 13, 2009 by JaguarOgat
Try not to be stupid. You teach a child not to hit in anything but self-defense. You explain to a child after a smack, WHY you smacked them! "You can't touch that electrical cord. It could hurt you very badly, much worse than a smack on the hand or the bottom!".

A smack is not a beating. Think.

My brother and I received perhaps 8 spankings from our mother while we were growing up. Always for a good reason. We're both good citizens without so much as an outstanding traffic violation between us. Neither one of us runs around beating people up because our Mom gave us a well-deserved spanking now and then.
17:32 August 13, 2009 by stainsbod
If a child behaves so bad their parent believes they deserve a good slap, then they have lousy parenting skills.

Which isn't a suprise seeing as they're ok using with violence against children.
18:22 August 13, 2009 by Leprehcaun
@ JaguarOgat

"Try not to be stupid."

:D.

Well according to my IQ test I would really have to try hard. I scored an 18 in logical thinking out of 19 possible (though 19 was just the limit of the test and not as high as it can be) which way above average. I like that fact in arguments.

First of all, I use "beat" because it sounds a lot worse than "spank" or "slap". And throwing your hand at someone, opened or not is beating that person. Call it a b1t**slap, a spanking or a knockout. Still a beating.

"You explain to a child after a smack, WHY you smacked them!"

Children don't do what their parents tells them to do, they do what their parents does. They become afraid of you and don't do what makes you angry because they are afraid to get beaten. Someone who knows how to raise a child doesn't use violence. Arguing with what I have already written shouldn't be necessary.

Out of space! Sigh..
19:04 August 13, 2009 by UKLady
It doesn't matter whether countries have a "no smacking" policy or not, there are badly behaved children globally! Total lack of disrespect, no clear boundaries and poor attitudes to young delinquants are the issues that should be raised not the smacking issue.

Children are individuals andl respond to different discipline methods - some learn with time-outs, removal of fav.toys or videos, grounding whilst others benefit/listen/ learn from a tap on the hand or bottom.

Sweden may have a no smacking policy but it hasn't stopped them from churning out deliquents with no respect for anyone, a basic lack of social skills, drink and drug problems and abysmal manners.

There is a huge social problem here and yet people are hung up on the smacking issue instead of problems like eating disorders, self-harming and bullying in schools nationwide.
20:18 August 13, 2009 by Leprehcaun
@ UKLady

"Sweden may have a no smacking policy but it hasn't stopped them from churning out deliquents with no respect for anyone, a basic lack of social skills, drink and drug problems and abysmal manners.

There is a huge social problem here and yet people are hung up on the smacking issue instead of problems like eating disorders, self-harming and bullying in schools nationwide."

You come from the UK and say this about us? HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
20:56 August 13, 2009 by tommycapes
There are so many self righteous pri&ks on this forum.

kaether and leprauchan do u even have kids. this is a good fair discussion and you can tell the ones with kids and the ones who dont.

i agree with the comment about the way seden mentaly plays with the kids. i got smacked as a child and am an honest and respectful citizen who respected my parents. my partner on the other hand never got hit but was scared by the pycholocical treatment by her parent.

britain is screwed because it is to bloody politically correct and has lost sight of what a decent society is. they look to sweden but unfortunately they havent actually been and seen how retarded swedish society can be in its desire to be the ultimate society.
21:57 August 13, 2009 by Leprehcaun
You call me a self righteous pr1ck you damn asshol3?!

"retarded swedish society"

So much for fair discussion. So scr3w it.

You're the self righteous here, trying to justify hitting children as a way of raising them by calling people who think that's really wrong retarded. I have never been so proud of being Swedish. It's people like you that has made me a very hating person (of people like yourself ofc).

What I have said is that people who hit children don't deserve to live, and I have no problem in doing that myself. I hope to (non-existing) god that you don't live here cause if you do.. well then I'll make a political 110 and vote for the sweden democrats.

Just to make this clear. I would rather die a painful death than let people like you move here (or to move to a country where your opinion is common).
00:49 August 14, 2009 by Irishmanabroad
Wow, never has one article changed my view so quickly. I was brought up in a household where smacking occurred only when my folks were pushed to the absolute limit. My parents unfortunately grew up in households were they didn't get smacked, they almost got knocked unconcious for doing wrong, so I am lucky in that respect.

What clicked in my mind was; If my partner did something that was wrong or that I didn't like, would I lash out and hit her? No, because that is domestic violence and it is wrong. I would talk the problem over with her and come to a resolution. Imagine if every problem in the world was solved by lashing out. Before reading this article I would have said that smacking had it's place on occasion. Now, I say it's cruel and anyone who does it is a coward!

Just because they are your kids, doesn't mean you can do what you like with them. Would that excuse apply if you killed them because you thought it was the right thing to do?
02:58 August 14, 2009 by TvAmazon
Wow, where to start. First off I'm glad I don't live next to Leprehcaun. He sounds like a real nutter. It's very easy to tell which people do not have children. Spanking is a parents last option not the first. Second hitting and slapping are not acceptable and is abuse. In nearly all cases if parents are spanking all the time then they have a problem not the child. I was spanked but only when I rebelled. I have only had to spank my children maybe 5 times combined. They are 11 and 8. I only did so when they refused to listen when I had said NO several times. Children are always testing boundaries this is an important part of their learning.
07:15 August 14, 2009 by Uncle
O, my God, are everybody here from Sudan, or some Europeans are still here?

All the arguments for spanking children are valid in Saudi Arabia for beating up women for example. They even prove it statistically that women are dumb and do not understand without a bit of spanking (of course they forget that the education and free movement is limited there for women, therefore they are "dumber").

It has been proven many times that discipline without physical contact is WAY more productive and developing for the child. Children react to the behavior towards them and this is how they develop a character, not vice versa. Also stats prove that children from beating families are more likely to become more violent. But nobody here seems to read any material about child raising he?
10:35 August 14, 2009 by Nessynz
This is so sensationalist! New Zealand is not looking at 'reintroducing' smacking at all, they are simply looking to make smacking illegal so it cannot be used as a defense in child abuse cases. This politician is just looking to raise her profile and getting her facts wrong in the process. A little bit of research goes a long way...
11:09 August 14, 2009 by Nawf London
To all you child smackers out there. I do respect your opinions and I'm sure at least some of your arguments are valid, although frankly I have little interest in reading them. The fact is however that that any form of physical violence towards children, even your own, is illegal under Swedish law and if I see you smack your kids in public I WILL report you! xxx
12:31 August 14, 2009 by Leprehcaun
@ TvAmazon

You know that you just proved me right? And you.. sigh.. you don't even see it.

You hit them, or spanked or whatever (I still say you hit them because your hand flew against them with the intention of inflicting pain, that's always hitting), because you were angry, wanted revenge and was incapable of discipline them in any other way than hurting them. THAT is what a bad parent does.. just to make sure no one twists that around and claim someone everyone knows I don't, I don't say that all bad parents hit their children but that parent hitting its child is a bad one. So is everyone who lets it happen.

Since you don't listen I'll repeat. It is NEVER necessary if you know how to raise a child.

This is almost amusing.. it seems as I always end up with 1 500 characters.. it's almost impossible to write something meaningful like this..
13:06 August 14, 2009 by beam_me_up
I raised my child with a lot of love and communication and never saw any reason to smack him, but I was always amused and disgusted the way Swedes let their children hit them. Why should a kid be allowed to hit their parents?? And, I notice it's common here to teach the kids to hit an object they bumped into. The object didn't do anything wrong. Makes no sense at all.
14:14 August 14, 2009 by Leprehcaun
@ Nawf London.. I never even thought of that.. not only is it immoral, it's illegal and that is disrespectful and if you get caught you'll be sent to jail! :lol: That's so great..

Anyway, what I couldn't write before:

Me, my 4 siblings, my entire f-ing (swedish) generation wasn't spanked once. You got that?! Do you close your eyes when I write something like that or do you just want to have an excuse to hit them? Do you like it because it makes you less angry? Does it feel good emotionally when you do it? Think about that the next time you're hurting them. Why are you doing it? Because your parenting skills are mediocre or maybe even bad or is to satisfy your anger, your wish for revenge? A control problem perhaps? Do you get very angry when they don't listen for their sake or other people's sake or because that you ain't in control?

Just one more paragraph.. ridiculous.
14:22 August 14, 2009 by mprsl
I went to an English Grammar School and our headmaster, when questioned about whether something or other was a 'school rule', said to us, "A breach of common sense is a breach of school rules". (And I once had occasion to feel his cane on my backside.) Kids need to be disciplined, as do parents who get carried away by the use of violence.
15:20 August 14, 2009 by johann2340
There are only few countries worldwide, where the government is deciding how parents have to bring up their children and not the parents themselves. Most governments consider parents intelligent enough to do the best for their children, which might include some spankings too from time to time. And why not? Anti-spanking laws are a big business for behavioral psychologists, however such talks are not much productive. All these rules about, what parents should not do since over 30 years did not improve at all the behavior of children in Sweden. - Parents are getting lazy about this issue and prefer not to interfere. The result can be seen in children full of alcohol and drugs, youth criminality, child pregnancy and abortion and remarkable violence among these children themselves. I think house arrest and some spankings to teach children their limits are still the better choice than to visit some years later your offsprings in a prison.
15:37 August 14, 2009 by misssh
I sent my vote in the post yesterday

and as far as I am concerned it should be ok to discipline your child with a smack on the bum. I got that when I was young and I am not one to stop a stranger in the street and become violent
15:38 August 14, 2009 by Saul Panzer
'Hitting people is wrong - and children are people too'

If you are going to accord children the same status as adults, why don't you also let them bear criminal responsibility, drink alcohol, vote etc?

Hitting and child abuse are emphatically not the same as physical chastisement or smacking and to pretend not to understand the difference is disingenuous.

This is typical liberal/left wing nonsense - they care more about displaying their imagined moral superiority/compassion to make themselves feel good than they do about the consequences of what they do.
16:03 August 14, 2009 by Leprehcaun
@ johann2340

You're twisting the truth and make ridiculous examples.

Teenage drinking, pregnancies and violence? Look at the US. And there you're allowed to beat your child.

Our government tells us that we can't hit children and doesn't say you will raise your child like this. The lazy ones are those who can't bring themselves to find a better.. I mean a good way to raise a child. Typical right wing lies and twists.

To come to the conclusion that not using violence in the home feeds violence. Not only is it illogical and laughable but it is a.. st*p1d assumption. Especially when you can compare the countries that allows and don't allows child abuse. Well child abuse by our standards. Which means all violence.

If you don't spank your child it doesn't mean that you will visit.. eh that should be obvious.

If you are in Sweden it is a criminal offense to spank your child. You are not allowed to spank a child here end of story. Simple huh?
16:46 August 14, 2009 by coswede
swedish parents are pussies

liberal thought police and social think destroying generations of common sense

spoank the kids, they will thank you later

by the way - when my kids were younger and when visiting sweden, I would and spank my kids in public just to wake the swedish pussy parents up
16:58 August 14, 2009 by askin
In the U.S. in many states, spanking is already reinstated, I believe, many years ago. Being brutal and violently beating the children is of course not good, but spanking, if this is the only possible way of teaching the children important "don'ts" should be allowed, I think.

There are worse things than being brutal and physically violent to children too - like divorces, lack of love between the parents, parents using narcotics, smoking, excessive drinking, etc.
18:27 August 14, 2009 by johann2340
@LEPREHCAUN #42

You write: Our government tells us that we can't hit children ...

This is exactly the problem, the government should not tell us, how we discipline our children.

In New Zealand, over 80 percent were against the smacking ban - the government ignored the opinion of its citizens, and now there is a referendum demanding this law to be changed.

Politicians should work for and with their citizens, and not against them.

I am living in Asia - this is the place, where over half of the world population is living. Yes, there are laws to protect children against misuse and mistreatment in every Asian country, but there are no laws to protect them against punishment and some spankings in case of bad behavior.

I do not know, why this all is such a big issue in some EU-countries. Do they have no other problems?
18:55 August 14, 2009 by KidsRpeople2
U.S. Congress is currently holding hearings on Abusive and DEADLY practices in SCHOOLS and MUST ABOLISH Physical/Corporal Punishment OF ALL CHILDREN IN ALL SCHOOLS, ALREADY ILLEGAL IN 30 STATES! The ACLU and Human Rights Watch issued a report this month regarding the disproportionate use of Corporal Punishment of Children with Disabilities in Schools with a recommendation to Abolish Corporal Punishment in ALL SCHOOLS.
18:57 August 14, 2009 by Leprehcaun
89% of all Swedes wants this law.. This is what we want, that spanking children should be illegal. It is unnecessary viole.. eh nvm ppl here still claim it is necessary even though the Scandinavian populations (among others) are living proofs that that is BS. Sigh.

@ coswede

You.. I really really hope that someone will report you someday. You are an a-hole. You DO NOT go to other countries and commit crimes. That is taboo and when you "spank my kids in public just to wake the swedish pussy parents" you're a f-ing monster. You just said that you did it to make other parents spank their kids?! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?! ARE YOU INSANE?! You spank your damn kids not because you want to punish them but because you want Swedes to hit their kids to?! You sicken me.. How can you people be so.. hellbent on getting us to spank our damn kids?! It isn't necessary! We don't need to! No one needs to! What's wrong with you?.. You actually depress me.. STAY AWAY.
19:05 August 14, 2009 by browneyes10
@ Greg in Canada

Lolz.. right

Because it is said that '' common sense is a sense which is not very common''.

Lol....
19:11 August 14, 2009 by johann2340
Leprehcaun: 89% of all Swedes wants this law.. This is what we want, that spanking children should be illegal.

Yes, and?

But 82 % in New Zealand do NOT want this law, and nevertheless the government made it a law, and now there is a referendum, because the NZ-citizens want the law to be changed.

Is this so difficult to understand for some Swedish politicians?
19:58 August 14, 2009 by Leprehcaun
Now I understand. Look we are talking about different things. If you read all the comments you'll see that I am talking to those who wants us to legalize it. I couldn't care less about what you are willing to do to your children, I'm not that kind of a person anymore but I will die before it happens here.

When it comes to some of our politicians they look at this like stoning women in Afghanistan and unlike me they still care. I've gave up before I could vote.. I admire them for that. It isn't that they don't care what you think.. in fact they care a lot. They think this is a horrible practice and that's why they are speaking up, exactly like they criticize Iran for the mass trials. This however is one of those rare occasions when a protest goes to a western country. The reason you feel this is wrong is.. like I have already pointed out that you believe this is necessary or do it for your own sake (because you feel angry and want revenge etc.. sigh).
20:14 August 14, 2009 by johann2340
@Comment: 05:02 August 13, 2009 by Greg in Canada Only in Sweden. There is such a thing called "common sense". Why is that so lacking in Swedish politicians.

The problem with Sweden is not their laws in Sweden. The problem is that they want to EXPORT their feminist/liberal laws, like this anti-spanking law, to foreign nations.

It is really insulting and ignorant how they talk about parents, who do not want their laws... these are all 'bad parents' 'sick parents' 'violent parents' etc. It's all about children rights, which might be fine as long as children are still small - but what about children 12 or 15 years old? They enjoy rights like a small child but no word about duties. 'You must do this, you must give me that' and if not, I will report you to social services or to police - Not a single word about respecting parents, not one word about using the words 'Please' and 'Thank you'.
21:16 August 14, 2009 by TvAmazon
I find it intersting reading the comments for those who don't have kids. Not all children are cut from the same cloth. Some are more easy going and others are strong willed. I challenge those who have stated that you need to sit down and reason with a child. In most cases within 10 seconds they have tuned you out and are thinking about what to do next (play, toys, ect..) or trying to run away and make a game out of you chasing and trying to make them listen. Society functions through escalating behavior modification. If authorties say NO and you refuse to listen what happens the next time you do the same thing again and again. Sooner or later corporal punishment has to come into play to get a persons attention. It happens as the last resort not first just like spanking. If parents are hitting and slapping their children that is abuse abuse and should be reported. Those parents have not learned any parenting skills or tools for proper discipline and need help fast.
21:30 August 14, 2009 by LaszloA2
I would like to say (and I am from the US) that I applaud MP Bargholtz for her statements.

Have I hit my kids, I have to say yes - rarely. I do believe reasoning with your children and respecting them as human beings is more effective than using fear to drive behavior.

Why would you smack a child in imminent danger? When in danger, remove them from danger or remove the danger. If you can smack their hand, you can as easily get between their hand and the danger or pick them up. Why would you smack a child not in imminent danger? Yes, there are belligerent children, but they learned how to be that way from somewhere.

The fact that your MP has publically stated her disapproval of what another country is doing can serve to educate all people about her view of the issue. I am not happy that I hit my children. When I did, it was driven by frustration or anger. By bringing up this issue, people may at least think about why they hit their child before, during, or after they do so.
22:31 August 14, 2009 by tommycapes
Leprauchaun.

you didnt answer my question. do you have kids?

If you did you would have a balanced opinion , instead of coming of as a right nutter.

get a f&%k&ng life and stick to swedish forums if you cannot accept there is a world outside of sweden. You are the perfect example of the brainwashed citizen who cannot see beyond the propoganda you have been force fed since birth.
22:46 August 14, 2009 by TvAmazon
I only have to tell my children a couple of times to do things now or stop doing something (They are not perfect - just like me). If they don't listen I start counting to 3 real slow (10 seconds) and I don't think I have ever gotten to 3. They usually start moving on 2. But they understand that if I get to 3 that they most likley will get some punishment. Have to do some extra house work or lose a priviledge (desert or special event they want to go too). If they belligerently refuse to listen after this I might consider spanking or consider a more sever form of punishment ( more house work and loss of priviledges). If they refuse to accept and perform their punishments then I would consider a spanking as necessary. But they understand that if they push it to the limit they will indeed get a spanking. They have to choose to except their punishment or get a spanking. Like I said this has only been necessary about 5 times combined for both of my children (11 and 8).
23:31 August 14, 2009 by Leprehcaun
@ Johann2340

That's not reality. That's propaganda.

@ tommycapes

Listen here you f-ing a-hole. I have already f-ing explained that I am talking about MF-ing a-holes like you who think you have the right to do this here, I am certainly very much aware of the outside world, I know people from all over the world too. I am not brainwashed, i base this on reality. 89%. Do you read?! 8-f-ing-9% of this country's population are guaranteed not to use ANY form of violence and IT IS WORKING. THAT'S A F-ING FACT, REALITY; NOT BRAINWASHING. Now fck off I'm done talking to you you disgusting damn c*nt.

@ TvAmazon

I am surprised by that low number but I still maintain that there were other solutions.. It isn't necessary for the average Scandinavian kid so why would it be any difference anywhere else? Tabula rasa, their personalities are formed when they grow up and aren't born that way so no one come with a "homogeneous" comment.
01:11 August 15, 2009 by TvAmazon
@ Leprehcaun

Your behavior and use of profanity on this forum shows how angry and disturbed you are and how hard it is for you to control yourself. GET HELP

How many have tried correcting a stong willed childs behavior by just reasoning with them. I have seen instances of this in the school that my kids go to and some of these kids are tyrants who slap and kit other kids as well as their parents because the parents haven't been able to reason with them. Is it better to give them a swat on the bottom if they refuse to stop and listen than to let them learn the hard way (police or employer) when the get older that their really are consequences for their actions? There is a hugh difference between a swat on the bottom if a child refuses to stop and listen than slapping and hitting out of anger at the first instance of wrong doing. Society is not so kind to those adults who refuse to play nice.
01:25 August 15, 2009 by Uncle
TvAmazon. A child is born without character. Zero. Clean slate. His character is built as a result to the surroundings aka parents behavior. Wild kids are becoming wild due to incorrect reactions of their parents in a very early stage. Spanking a child can be compared to rape. Little physical damage or even pain, but a lot of humiliation, sense of helplessness and moral shock (yes, the little buggers are programmed to take their parents too seriously). When one rapes his wife because she "DID NOT LISTEN", would she actually consider this as a valuable lesson for the future and listen next time? No. She will be just terrified and at prolonged punishing behavior - rebellious. Showing your disappointment with the kid makes them actually listen and learn, since as mentioned above, they are programmed so. The same works vice versa - not to reward them with a candy, but with an approving word.
01:56 August 15, 2009 by TvAmazon
Uncle. You must not have children because I have read all this stuff in parenting magazines and most of the time it does not work. Using guilt to try make children behave only workes if the child is old enought to understand and care. Being terrified of doing something wrong is not a bad thing. That same fear protects us many times during our lives. We should be afraid of doing things wrong and the consequences of those actions. I don't think you have sat down and tried to reason with a 3 or 4 year old and explain why something is wrong. They are not small adults and many do not even realize why something is wrong. After a few seconds you have lost their attention. So do you keep on letting them behave this way. Explaining to them time and time again why they should not hit other children or maybe wait until another bigger kid really shows them. Spanking is a last resort if they do not listen. It also stresses to them why they need to listen.
01:59 August 15, 2009 by Leprehcaun
Thx Uncle

@ TcAmazon

I respond profanity with profanity. I am angry because I am insulted and I am most certainly not the kind of person you try to paint me as, and you probably know that too which is just the more angering. But that is ofc, your intention.

Since it seems like we can keep this civil, I am actually laughing at the moment cause the same arguments for spanking and in other ways hitting children comes up and it's getting really difficult to think of anything new to bring into this.. conversation..

Luckily for me Uncle has written something a lot better than anything I can think of. Though I am a little shocked by the comparison there are definitely some alikeness.. If it isn't obvious we both think (I don't even have to ask that) rape is far worse than this but there are still similarities.
02:34 August 15, 2009 by TvAmazon
There is no comparison to rape and spanking. That is nonsense. I was spanked a few times as a child and would have no problem be spanked as an adult. I would not want to be raped (foolish comparison). I'm not clear as to what you think spanking is. It is not leaving bruises or marks. That is out of control and over the line. I would like to know how you would handle this situation. You have a 3 year old who likes babies and a new born. The 3 year old wants to play with the baby because she thinks they are fun and cute. You have tried several time explaining to her that she is not to play with the baby unless you are around. How do you stop them if they do not want to listen or forget all the time? Do you alway lock the 3 year old in the bathroom when you have to go or need to get a shower and lock them out of the room when you need to sleepf(the first few years with young children leave you sleep deprived)? Which is more important the baby or a swat on the bottom?
04:21 August 15, 2009 by JaguarOgat
@ Leprehcaun - wow. You're a lunatic. Seriously. Do you even live on planet Earth?

Is it better to administer a momentary sensation of pain in order to stop a child harming him or herself (or another) - and never have to do it again....or run that kid (or another) to a hospital because you were too paralyzed by your own stupidity to see that talking them out of whatever they were about to do wasn't going to work?

Is it better to scar a child psychologically with isolation, yelling or other actual forms of abuse - or adminster a moment's pain to demonstrate that what they did was very, very wrong?

That's what we're talking about. Not smacking as the first and only reaction for every infraction. Not beating a child into unconsiousness. Not breaking bones and otherwise behaving as a monster.

The other option is to do nothing, and allow the child to grow to be a monster.
10:01 August 15, 2009 by preddo53
Well, iv'e read most of the posts on here, and ive come to the conclusion, that Leprecaun has a real problem, considering he was never smacked as a child he seems full of violence. Go see a doctor son, you have a real problem. To the normal people, I was smacked as a child, probably because I stepped out of line so much. I loved my parents but i did test the boundaries. Iv'e never smacked my own children, I taught them from birth i was in charge and they understood that, when I said no I meant no, not maybe. My friend did smack his child, but when he used to lay an the floor of shops screaming for chocolate and sweets, maybe I would have done the same.
10:26 August 15, 2009 by ameribrit
As I do wholeheartedly believe that children should have the same rights as adults, I would like to see the "nanny" mentality of making it illegal to spank a child when needed discontinued. Of course I also firmly believe that a good smack in the mouth is often the best way to curb the behaviour of an adult that is acting out. Don't bother coming back with all the "violence begets violence" tripe. Fact is sometimes an adult just needs a smack in the mouth and a child needs a smack on the butt. Call it cultural but it seemed to work fine that way back in Oz in good old days.
11:01 August 15, 2009 by Leprehcaun
..

This is so frustrating.. You have probably read all my comments yet you don't remember what Ive said. It's like me saying "don't leave the door open" and you leave the door open. Several times in a row. IF it would be necessary to spank a child instead of going to the hospital that would be the better option but you don't need to spank.. or to yell or to destroy a child's psychology.. and.. sigh.. we don't do nothing.. this is working in several countries what about that is it that you don't understand? Read! It works in several countries. It isn't brainwashing, it isn't fiction it is how things are here. Children aren't spanked here (and the funny thing is that we have the lowest child mortality rate in the world (that's counted up 5 years of age).

Sigh.. This is on earth, it is reality, it has been like this for decades. Out of space
12:04 August 15, 2009 by Uncle
TVAmazon I have 2 children, my wife has a degree in child education and works with children and I have read tons of child psychology literature. Just for clarification. Children up to 5 do not plan. They do not calculate. They just act and react. They demand constant attention (positive or negative) because this is how the nature made them. They need confirmation or rebuffing on their actions CONSTANTLY. Even if you are in a bathroom.

Now if a child goes to a cliff, you can spank him as a warning. Now he is associating the cliff with YOUR WILL rather than danger. He can handle your will (unless you damage him badly) and he will go to the cliff edge sooner than later.

I will bring him to the edge, show him my phobia, throw a stone down. Since he is programmed to copy-paste my phobias, he will associate the cliff with DANGER. Who was more effective?
12:24 August 15, 2009 by preddo53
Ameribrit, I agree with every word you say, I'm British and since Thatcher signed the Maastricht treaty, this country has deteriorated so much, can't chastise our children anymore, it's ridiculous. We now have murder as an everyday occurrence, murder in this country was non existent not so long ago, burglary, stabbings, rape, you name it we have it. If I step out of line as an adult I'm chastised, the same should apply to children, if they are not then we end up with a situation as we have now. Uncle, you read too much into a simple situation, you know robbing banks is an illegal practice so you don't do it, if there was no punishment, illegal or not, you would do it. households have rules, abide by them or suffer the consequences, simple. By the way, no one is proposing you beat your kids to death. We have a situation in western Europe which is down to people like you and your ilk, kids know now adults have no redress regarding their behaviour.
12:28 August 15, 2009 by sleeplesssweden
Welcome to Sweden, where under-aged girls and boys try sex, cigarettes and alcohol.

Welcome to Sweden, where they can never be corrected due to the stupid laws they have.

Welcome to Sweden, the land where youths can kill each other and barely get a minimum sentence.

The statistics have indicated body bags committed by children that were not spanked...its only the beginning.
12:47 August 15, 2009 by Uncle
TvAmazon. You know why your 3 y/o goes and wakes up the baby? (I have the same exact problem that is slowly disappearing). Because he gets attention from you. Yes, it is negative attention, but it does not matter, since he gets attention, which is the child's priority. You know what we do? We reward him with a good word, a throw in the air, a laugh-if he is quiet and helping with his little brother (positive attention). If he wakes him up, we take the crying baby in the hands say a disapproving word to the big brother and make him leave the room and be alone. He does not get any attention, therefore the action did not bring to the wanted result. He is at a loss and the problem is diminishing. In regards to the rape comparison - the emotional shock has different levels between kids and adults, therefore the humiliation feeling is comparable. I bet you still remember a lot of these slaps, eh?
14:01 August 15, 2009 by Leprehcaun
@TvAmazon

The only time I was ever pissed of was when that a-hole up there somewhere said some very a-holic things.

I can NEVER smile while talking about: torture, rapes, murders, big thefts (or any theft that happens to e.g. retired old people), child abuse (I consider smacking children to be that) and just about everything else bad that happens to people who aren't bad people that has been intensional.

@ sleeplesssweden

That first one should be; welcome to the western world.

That second is just old propaganda.. and it is from an American perspective (where you can throw your cat in a microwave and then sue the company because they didn't warn about it).

That is twisted.. In reality it is far worse, that's how the "justice" system (doesn't) work for everyone. Rape someone and there's a 9% chance you get convicted and our prosecutors will make sure you're out in.. 8 months, tops. With the help of the judge and lawyer you're out in half that time.
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