PUB yanks North Korean jeans due to concerns over labour conditions

There is a great story behind NOKO jeans that provides enough momentum to get past this.

The PUB decision most likely has nothing to do with human rights. I think it would be highly interesting to take a sample of the jeans produced by a few retailers in PUB....trace it back to the factories they are produced in and then see just how "humane" those factories are.

The majority of clothing that finds its way on Europeans and North Americans backs are produced in sweat shop like conditions. This is especially true with companies that mass produce their products (Like H and M).....

These companies cannot be vilified for utilizing cheap labor. Companies are not moral institutions they are in the business of making money and if the standard is sweat shop like conditions with child labor all players will participate in it.

So even if NOKO jeans were made in Sweat shops..which from their videos is in doubt...they would be doing nothing different from everyone else EXCEPT 1 thing...opening up a closed society. For this they have my vote of confidence..consumer confidence.

As far as PUB is concerned I am boycotting them because their management is nothing but a bunch of hypocritical fjucktards.

I feel sorry for the hard working enterpreneurs. It is a disrespect shown. Is PUB really concerned about working conditions at North Korea? Why are they politicing it? Who is behind it?

Come on this is North Korea. The people starve to death because their leader is crazy. And to think the people their will get anything from this is just dumb.

krigeren

You try to say its ok to have these jeans because other companies use sweat shops to produce jeans. What kind of line of thought is that?

I have a new idea how about they are both wrong.

This is so much b**lshit from the people complaining about this.

When clothing was made in Northern Ireland 30 years ago under almost slave like conditions, no one in Sweden or anywhere else for that matter complained about how the workers were treated.

The majority of the workers were glad to get some sort of employment, even though the wages were terrible.

None of you bleeding hearts opened your mouths then.

My mother and quite a few relatives worked in those factories which were nothing better than slave camps. Patronising a**holes from the USA, UK and other countries went on television explaining how wonderful they were for employing people at low wages and treating them as subhuman.

The clothing companies that made clothing in Northern Ireland, now make clothing in Republic of Mauritius, Pakistan, India, Turkey and Morrocco. In those countries the workers are treated terribly and in some cases better than they were in Northern Ireland.

None of you complained about that, so why are you complaining about this in North Korea.

The workers for European companies in North Korea earn more than other workers in there area. The work will be crap and hard as hell. However they will earn a bit extra than others and have that slight bit more. It is not much more they will have, but when you have next to nothing, a bit extra can really make a difference.

You are all working and it is obvious your parents did not have to struggle to pay bills when you were a child. If you had, you would understand that the workers in that company will want the work, due to the extreme poverty in North Korea.

Having worked in the textile industry for many years, in China and other countries, I do not agree with PUB, I do not think unless one has viewed the factory and have done an evaluation (which PUB should have done prior to giving the go ahead) many large department stores or brands have a humanrights evaluation department, which is carried out before a product is produced, if the company passes the evaluation they then inturn get the contract to produce. PUB did not follow the proper guide lines them selves.

What happened in 1991, all the former USSR backed counted countries, companies moved in fast, why cheap labour, did they follow human rights, sure not. I would think that this is more a political issue then a human rights issue.

Not all companies violate human Rights, China, North Korea.

@dwb5555

I am not saying its ok. I am saying this is how the industry works. Its the status quo.

PUB are a bunch of hypocrites because they are complaining about a perceived practice, that they have not verified, that most likely a great deal of their current renters who sell clothes already violate.

The depth of research that department stores go into to verify if a factory is complying to human rights is usually not that great. Department stores do it so they can say they have a standard or a auditing system in place. However, its just window dressing for the most part.

I have been around industry long enough to know that employers will generally push their labor as far as they are able to under the law and often a bit further if they can get away with it......in some countries where workers are pampered I can understand it...in other countries where they live in squalor I sympathize with the worker.

@nemesis my Grandmother came from a similar background as your mother. They were tough and bit there lip......

Today we live in a world that is mostly driven by lies and ran by liars as it always has been. People are becoming more aware of it...but still most are indifferent as hell to do anything about it.

You have to expect businesses concern on having any association with North Korea. The country is one huge propoganda machine, so how can anyone believe what they see let alone hear. The minute the guys from Noko left the workers were probably put back in a cage.

@ krigeren

Yeah, they had to bite there lip or be fired. I worked an evening shift in one of the last factories to exist in my parents area. The wages were terrible. My mother put up with it for 30 years and got nothing but wrecked finger joints and grief.

I try to tell people what people like my mother and your grandmother had to work like. They don't believe me and only think that sort of thing happened in 3rd world countries.

In Europe a lot has changed due to countries joining the European Union. Union laws are almost everywhere in Europe now. I know a lot of people don't like the European Union, but I have seen the changes for workers rights on the ground due to the new laws, brought in by Europe. They have helped. There is still a lot to change, but it is getting better.

The problem is the lies as you have said. It is endemic in the system.

Some people are becoming more aware, but a lot of them are also becoming only selectively aware. They only see what they want to see and refuse to see anything else.

I think until people see how those workers are treated right in front of there faces, not much will change.

Hopefully someday workers everywhere will get some sort of descent treatment.

@square All Countries are Huge propaganda machines. Some countries propaganda machines are quite a bit more whacked than others.

The US, Sweden, UK, Germany...etc....

Anyone who is born in those countries are usually some sort of slave. Maybe the shackles don't appear on our legs but they sure do appear on our minds.

They force us to adopt an identity of a nation against our own will. That is specifically why I dont educate my kids in state run schools....rather I try to teach my kids how governments work to manipulate their people for the benefit of those in power rather than the individual. I try to teach them the importance of being an outsider, being objective, if you become an insider...a part of a nation...a part of their ideas you give up something of yourself. Anyone can conform...I dont know any interesting people that do.

Take a look at Sweden. Most people here are conformists, fit in, tow the line. Most here beleive in the system. Polls show that most people beleive the rules are very important and most would shun a rebel or rebellious behavior.

What you have here now is a politically correct society where its just as dirty and maligned as any other country they just put a lot of efforts into pretenses that its not.

The FRA act was passes here without a problem. Taxes are incredibly high. Its a great country to perform social experiments because the people here since most are conformist and believing are able to be convinced by the powers that be whats right for them....A naive and good people are easily lead astray.

@nemesis

I remember that to..taking care of my grandmother when she was sick and really looking at her hands how contorted they were. Every so often she would have to get her rings cut off because of the swelling. She has a small black and white TV in her sewing room and Agatha Christie novels as her escape. Really too smart of a person to work her whole life as a seamstress.

I think you are right...its about the consumers....

I see all these Oil companies commercials on TV...when was the last time they talked about selling more oil? They would not need to make all these soft and fuzzy commercials to sway public opinion if they were actually doing something meaningful ;-)

Maybe you are right about the someday but there is a high probability a great deal of turmoil and blood that will be spilled getting there.

@ krigeren

Mum worked in the shirt factories in Derry in Northern Ireland. Anytime I am back there, I meet people mum worked with. All of them have problems with there fingers. I only worked in those factories in the evenings for a few years, to earn extra money, so thankfully have no serious finger problems. I only have lines in my nails which makes them break easily, which is easily taken care of with false nails. I use acrylics sometimes when they get very bad, which happens a lot during the summer, but is no big deal as it is only cosmetic.

My mum had to have several operations on her fingers, mostly to straighten them out. Both her hands now sit like a half claw when relaxed. The end bits of the fingers are the most distorted. That appears to be very common in those workers.

Quite a few of them had to have weddding rings cut of in hospital, which has always upset everyone, understandably. I have seen that happen and seen the upset. I once took over an hour to take my mother's wedding ring of in cold water, smearing it with butter, so it would not be damaged. I can understand how upsetting it would be seeing your grandmother have her rings cut of.

I noticed when speaking to some of the other women who worked in those factories, all there fingers are wrecked. Almost all of them have arthritis, ligament problems and there nails are all distorted. All there nails have lines and white dots.

Quite a few also have wrist problems, which thankfully mum has avoided.

I do believe you are right to state it is the consumer that needs to be educated.

The problem is, everytime someone tries to do that, it is hijacked by left wing nutjobs or attacked by rightwing nutjobs. The politcal extremists always destroy anything like that that tries to change anything. The ordinary workers are always caught between that hammer and anvil.

I really wish I could find a way to create an education effort in that area, without it being hijacked by the political extremists with there crazy agenda's. I really wish a lot of the political people would just go away.

Andrea

how about h&m or ikea? how hypocrites some swedes can be.. really.

@ diegoveggie

It is the same in every high street shop.

Even marks and spencer in UK now has everything makde in China, Indai, Pakistan, etc.

has anyone been into PUB lately?? worst mall in stockholm!

it has a depressed, "half finished" look about it...

The arguments here, ostensibly in support of Noko, are absurd. I've never seen so much stretching of the core arguments in order to win points on baseless merit. This particular issue has nothing to do with the US, Ireland, Judaism, Martians or the price of garlic in France. It has to do with the fact that Noko lied about the due diligence in the execution of their idea.

Noko displayed a contempt for the suffering of the DPRK population, and then attempted, badly, to cover their true agenda. When the specific provenance of their product was questioned, instead of being truthful, they were dishonest about the whole process, including to Aplace. Being dishonest to one's business partners is always a bad move. They were caught in a lie. PUB knew about it.

Noko's subsequent explanations were then so poorly spun, that it sounded like the DPRK government themselves had written Noko's script. Complaints were made directly to The Swedish government and PUB's senior management. As the merits of the case against Noko were clear, and as Noko had not told the truth to the right people before any of this flared, it did not take much to close their launch.

There is, of course, a strong point to be argued against the brand names using sweat-shops, and PUB, like everyone else in the world stocking those products. However, none of this should detract from this particular situation, at least not in this debate. Noko, instead of having their jeans made in Sweden or anywhere else, thought that they could make a fat profit by going to DPRK.

They also, apparently due to their lack of education, thought that there would be some sort of "wow factor" in having jeans made in DPRK. They underestimated decent people's awareness, intellect and discomfort in having jeans made by people living in fear, under an oppressed regime. Their venture was always ill-advised, as was their publicity campaign, (which backfired thanks to Noko professing that DPRK's factories have better Corporate Social Responsibility Credo's than they could find anywhere else, in any other country).

Noko, perhaps through their lack of business experience, took a bad idea, and then financed, planned and executed it badly. They had many opportunities to put it right, and failed to take advantage of them. They then tried to keep up momentum on their dishonesty. PUB knew this and acted appropriately.

If the commenters here really care that much about the human suffering and source of goods that they buy, they will surely boycott Noko, along with every other product made under dubious circumstances. I hope they do. The more the better.

Selective hypocrites! Capitalism is all about exploitation of workforces to satisfy big markets. We in the developed world get most of our products from exploited workforces who work hard and long unbelivable hours for small money. Think about it!.........How many Chinese products in your house, how cheap our tv,s and computers have become! Indian textiles, clothes etc etc

We love a bargain and filling our lives with state of the art products.........and for the most part dont think twice about what lies behind it.

The North Korea jeans thing is purely a selective judgment........NK being an easy target to pick on due to all our political and media coverage of the state. There are real people there who can benefit from work and trade.

Where is AFA and SSU in all of this? Why aren't they out there, banners aloft, demonstrating?

@Krigeren I don't normally bother getting into debate on these forums but comparing US,Sweden, Germany etc to North Korea is just plain dumb. Give yourself an uppercut.

@Square..Whoa...retract that cowboy.... I never compared them to North Korea.

"All Countries are Huge propaganda machines. Some countries propaganda machines are quite a bit more whacked than others."

Inferring that North Korea is quite a bit more fjucked up then most. However,

this does not change the fact that other countries infuse their population with propaganda.

1. America - Associated democracy with war and uses the arguments to justify hunting resources worldwide under the veil of freedom and liberation. Considering the size and might of America this sort of behavior is more dangerous than North Korea due to the scale.

2. Sweden. Most people here beleive whatever their government tells them. I never never seen a democratic society that is so easy for those in power to manipulate. I am not fully certain why although I have my suspicions....Sweden is the country of safety...people who seek safety and security tend to be conformists. The level of indifference here is insanely high. Everyone here tends to be a cynic. If you try to do something unique and positive the first thing you hear is criticism rather than encouragement. Its like some Orwellian way of keeping people in check.

All nations in the interests of state security, creating the illusion of nation, and social harmony brainwash their citizens with whatever history and viewpoint of the world suits best the national interests. It is...in part.... these national interests that get in the way of people coming together and uniting.

Most of what we all beleive we have been programmed to do so by our governments and advertising. Yes, we all have opinions on clothes, cars, sex, politics, etc. Yet, generally these opinions are contained within a range that still in someway promoted the national interests or is benign towards them.

In part what Noko jeans is trying to do is open up the doors and connect with people. Even if North Korea is a dictatorship...somehow the Swedes that visited there had their lives impacted and so did the North Koreans. It was positive overall.

The PUT story is being Spun against NOKO. Noko has to spin back and expose the hypocrisy of PUT but in a carefully channeled way as to promote the brand. Underneath NOKO is a vast powderkey of PR. If done right it will propel them to great heights..done wrong it will blow their ass off.

Good comment Krigeren

"Krigeren" Nothing like being completely off point in attempt to join in to an otherwise intelligent debate, is there? Idiot.

"Winger" Hey, sorry my opinion rubs you the wrong way...no need for name calling.

~ If people are going to start attacking North Korea people have to look in their own backyards first.....

I agree with @nemesis it boils down to the consumer.

Since we in the west have mostly been trained to be good little consumers playing ball by the powers that be.....the burden really rests on us as individuals to singly and collectively change the world. Governments and corporations sure as hell are not going to do it.

I see NOKO as doing something different than just about anyone else out there (except for a nice little company in Finland exporting shrunken heads from Myanmar ;-)

We live in an age right now where the number one marketing person in the world is being voted along with the number one marketing idea. Right now the leader is that vote is Steve Jobs and the number one idea is "Iphone Applications" -- Its a clear sign we live in a vacuous age full of equally vacuous people. I can't think of a time in history that if most of us were wiped out by some natural disaster or war....well...that future generations would not be missing much to read about if it did not happen.

The further our lives are watered down, molded and shaped by us via those with MBA, and government the less likelihood of real breakthroughs coming. We live in one of those times.

At least NOKO went out and did something. Even if you think its the wrong thing they still did something which is more than most do.

@Kooritze Thanks

@Nemesis Sorry to hear about your mum's and her co-workers suffering as well.

"I see NOKO as doing something different than just about anyone else out there".

What specifically was so unique?

@bushido

They are using political controversy as a back drop to a business model. Most companies either avoid politics or hire lobbyists to do their bidding behind closed doors.

Generally the only companies that do that are media companies in the form of news or satire.

@krigeren

I would have perhaps agreed with your analysis. But, surely Noko wasn't sufficiently prepared to utilise the "political controversy" in this case? If they were better prepared, surely they would have had a far better strategy for handling the PUB and PR fallout?

Looking at their NK story, and their statements, it was clear that they had no strategy at all. They were expecting people to believe them, whatever they said, and worse, tried to continuously state as fact, that which was false. If there is any truth in their positive intentions towards a specific NK population, they have failed them.

People are more media savvy these days, and aside from the rights and wrongs of who they was making their jeans, Noko appeared to treat their public as though they are still living in the 1950's, an odd proposition from a team of young founders.

In business terms and lost opportunity alone, this venture is one of the most bizarre scenarios in history.

Nemesis,

"Patronising a**holes from the USA, UK and other countries went on television explaining how wonderful they were for employing people at low wages and treating them as subhuman."

"they will earn a bit extra than others and have that slight bit more. It is not much more they will have, but when you have next to nothing, a bit extra can really make a difference."

So which is it? There seems to be a contradiction in your logic. The first quote would make the owners of Noko Jeans "Patronising [sic] a**holes", yet the later quote makes it seem as if they are human rights champions.

@mkvgtired I read the posts by Nemesis and it appears she is talking about different places and different times.

1. I interpret the reference to the first paragraph as basically how most Western countries treat their low priced labor whether its in the West or elsewhere.

2. We are talking about North Korea. Any foreign investment that is not tied to arms or hair treatments for the great leader is much needed.

@Nemesis.

You are not making sense again. There is a major difference between "almost slave conditions" and "slavery".

Read about the difference between pheodalism in Russia and concentration camps in Russia.

Every 10th to 12th person in North Korea is an actual SLAVE that can be killed, raped and tortured at any day. Do not compare to "we little poor irish, could not afford colour TV". Do not compare your poor condition to Birkenau camp!

In addition, whenever a company starts paying high wages in these countries, the landed cost (material cost+ assembly+ logistics) becomes so high, that the company stops it's operation in that country (see Nike) and all of the poor little underpaid children who could provide for themselves, starve to death.

There is no one to blame, but the third worlds leaders who starve their population without the West throwing a bone.

The same with the "evil" consumerism of the west. Only due to this evildoing, millions survive. The less we will consume, the more will die and the more will die, the more children will be born in the 3rd world and hence - even MORE will die.

Now the North Koreans are sitting in the concentration camps and stitching your jeans. If they will not do it, they will be in mines, or make shoes for other NK people. Your all of a sudden tolerant approach to Koreans will not improve their situation, but the palaces of their leader will be fancier! That is the difference.