Published: 7 Nov 11 11:27 CET | Print version
Online: http://www.thelocal.se/37202/20111107/
Sweden can't afford to keep discriminating against those living in the suburbs and thereby missing out on the payback of years of investment in education and skills, journalist Carlos Rojas argues.
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This is a definition of a ponzi scheme. The author argues they will need immigration to support the amount of senior citizens in 2060. What happens when those immigrants brought in are too old to work, then you need even MORE immigrants to support the larger aging population. This is unsustainable and not a reason why one should increase immigration.
PS: I live in an extremely elite neighborhood of Malmo. But nothing changes the mentality of those who judge me by my black hair and wheatish skin.
"After graduation I felt that since I have been taught for free while the cost was paid by the Swedish tax payers. So I have a moral obligation to pay back to the Swedish society."
Care to explain these thoughts in a bit more detail and how and why you entertained them? Of particular interest would be what you think Sweden's moral obligation to you and your family of 4 (?) actually is.
If you think that treating a human being without having biasness is something that a "civil" society should be obliged to do. Then that is the exact obligation which I believe the Swedish society in general should have towards me, my wife and my children. If you opine that giving me free medical care and my children free education suffices for the social equality that we deem necessary then I'll disagree. I don't consider it free because of the 35% of mine and around the same percentage of my wife's salary (my wife is in the same profession as I am) is paid as taxes. I am in no way trying to assert that taxation in Sweden is bad. As a matter of fact this is something that I really like about Sweden. Because of the taxes we pay we feel that we are actually contributing towards the society. The only thing which I believe; makes the Swedish society un suitable for me and my family is the general mindset of the Swedish people. The same mindset has already started to echo in the democratically elected parliament. Experiencing this mindset is something for which I don't actually need to visit the parliament. I get a firsthand experience of this mentality almost every week.
You and your dependants should be traded with respect. That shouldn't even be debated. The question is what is it you actually believe is morally (as you put it) owed to you? I mean what exactly don't you like in the Swedish mindset and why?
Wow, nice to put the blame about your siblings lack of confidence on others. What about their own responsibilities? I guess it`s easier to blame it all on the racist Swedes.
"But to exclude people from the jobs market because they are who they are, is also a form of contempt."
There is discrimination, ofcourse there is. It exists in all countries. But for every case of discrimination there is also a case of a person who themselves exclude themselves from the job market. Either by crime, abusing the welfare system or the lack of education.
"If we don't all copulate freely we will surely need to increase immigration during the coming half century."
We shouldn`t copulate freely since the world is already overpopulated. We in Sweden are taking our responsibility in that regard. But there should be immigration. Selective immigration. Immigration from developed countries and not fake refugees who come here for the welfare checks. We don`t need analphabetic refugees from the other side of the world with a medival view towards women and people of other races, we need educated people.
Carlos Rojas represents the typical journalist view. The blame always lies with an imaginary racist system and never at a humans personal responsibility. They always see people as victims. Something that is wrong and at the same time demeaning towards those people. He doesn`t have a sound view of human beings, he views them as helpless victems when they are not. People are in charge of their own life.
These statistics are extremely vague, what is the age profile of the women? education level, cultural background? When did the women come to Sweden? As children or as young women and adults? Did a higher proportion of Swedish women continue to work even in lower paid jobs while they had children versus the women born abroad who remained at home, their skill set would differ and lead to being less attractive to employers. What is their language capabilities? I am not saying there isn't discrimination against foreigners, but there are plenty of people of Swedish heritage who have to leave Sweden due to job prospects. 8% unemployment.
Also, how many of those women are allowed to work by their husbands/fathers?
I wonder if maybe you missed (or misunderstood) what JoshArnold was saying.
Nowhere in his original text did he say that he felt Sweden has a moral obligation to him and his family. Yet you pursue him for a reply to your accusation as if he did. He talks only about *his* feeling of obligation to pay back something in return for what he had received through his education.
Deliberately or not, you chose to suggest that this guy was claiming that Sweden owed him something special. I don't see that anywhere in anything he wrote. The provocative nature of your comments (and those of others) in response to his mild-mannered words rather proves his point, I feel.
What a prognosis. Just think what happens when Asia and Africa start ageing. Prosperity does not breed more consumers to buy second-grade cars built to blow up at predetermined intervals.
Even russians are leaving Russia, so that country is also losing it's best and brightest.
This same pamflet goes around the world: We are aging, we are losing educated people to somewhere..
To where?? Is there some sort of black hole somewhere, sucking up all who seem to consider themselves priceless?
Well surely not from YOUR potent kind.
The constant moan about the swedish racism towards immigrants or skåne people, or sami, or alcoholics standing outside "systemet" is getting old and tiring.
Sweden has the most advanced society that strives to get better and better. Its assistance to failing counties in terms of refuge or financial assistance is proven to be the highest per capita in Europe. Assistance programs are launched non-stop and an immigrant can afford to live quite well for 7 years on average until they get their first job. A magic impossible in "open minded" UK or US. Segregation of societies is not as obvious as in many other countries, gap between rich and poor is way smaller than in other countries. Education and healthcare are free. Children get free dentist care and the right to have their mother tongue taught in schools.
Most of racist attacks are performed by the "poor discriminated" immigrants and not against them.
As for attracting immigration. The journalist above does not get that the native swedes emigration is largely CAUSED by IMMIGRATION mostly indirectly. Bringing more immigrants will affect emigration trends also. Action and reaction in the nature.
I dont understand why people cant differentiate between "Asylum Seekers" and people with skills and high education ???
Skilled & educated people do not ask this society for social money, they like and strive to earn for living.........not waiting for start of month to get social.
Carlos is talking about these people, NOT about what you all are discussing. You/We need to make a distinction between people who cling to social and who make efforts and want to do something.
I am sorry to say but if you just visit Migrationsverket in any of city in Sweden, you will find that they are happy to offer you Asylum status BUT not a role to be productive and helpful to society. Just for an example, see how much time an Asylum seeker needs and how much a Self employment needs with Migrationsverket. I personally feel that policies of Sweden are counterproductive, since you are supporting idle people who want to stay at home THAN who want to be active.
My POINT is only to make you understand, that "Productive to Society" and "Burden to Society" should not be seen and treated with same stick.
I understand that. But I see both sides. The immigration policies in Sweden caters to the ones that are being prioritized. The ones being prioritized are the asylum seekers and their relatives. They need clothes, care, education and a place to live. So that`s what the policies focus on. Any other group are secondary. It`s safe to say that the politicans are out of touch with reality.
Why people may have a wrong view on immigration is because it`s almost only discussed as a problem. Even this article talks about a problem. We never hear about the succesfull stories of how someone moved here and found the land of their dreams. We never focus on what we have done right, only what we have done wrong.
@ autonomy
So you discriminate Swedes and favor immigrants? Do you feel that is right? You are also using your personal experience to judge Sweden as a whole. You seem to have a bad boss, not everyone does. How do you know that the swedish workforce is lazy, self-satisfied and not ambitioned?
@ nibbler
I agree. That`s why I asked "how many" instead of saying everyone.
@ just a thought
"Getting treated 'better than other immigrants' is also an insane argument"
You do know that it`s exactly what autonomy is doing if you read his/her comment, except immigrants get put forward ahead of Swedes in his/her job interviews. That`s not the right way according to me.
@Migga: look up the meaning of whitelisting. I never said I didn't consider native ethnical Swedes as job applicants (I have employed several). The boss I referred to is one I had several years ago, and my comments about the Swedish workforce are related to 19 years of experience working in UK, the Caribbean, the US, the Netherlands, China, India, France and Sweden. As with any generalization, there are notable individual exceptions, but I do feel that Swedes en masse tend to be held back from fulfilling their potential because they are encouraged not to stick out from anyone else - and many of my native Swedish friends agree with me.
But with that said, I have noticed that when I meet and interact with people who I don't know, like in restaurants, in stores or out having a beer, that immigrants (even second generation immigrants) are by far more friendly and welcoming to me than native Swedes. That may be a cultural thing? I can't say since I've only been here about 4 months. But I've been told, even by my friends who are native Swedes, that "that's just how Swedish people are." I'm not sure if that's any kind of justification for it, but it helps me at least understand it.
I haven't seen the racism or biases (yet), but me pet peeves that I have noticed are that Swedes don't have the same common courtesy as we do in the US, and they for sure as heck can't make a martini! WTH, how hard is it to make a good martini? I should complain to the UN! :)
"Whitelist is a (controversial; see below) term used to describe a list or register of entities that, for one reason or another, are being provided a particular privilege, service, mobility, access or recognition."
I`d say it`s to favor something. You should try to be more equal against everyone, no matter their name.
And even when Sweden isn`t fulfilling their potential we are still in the top of the world. Nice!
@autonomy - Thank you it's been rough and frustrating but hopefully I'm at the end of this tunnel before the end of the month!
I guess we read it differently. I`m not defending it, I`m saying that it`s autonomy personal experience. I don`t see it as unfair criticism since I know it exsists. I just don`t belive it`s a big of a problem as some make it out ot be. And that the problem lies with both the person applying to the job and the ones hiring.
If it was such a major problem then Sweden would be doing alot worse then what it is doing. At the same time I can only imagine how it is in other countries who are doing worse then Sweden.
@omansour - Sweden was one of the biggest benefactors via contracts with the State Department for the wars not to mention it's habit of arms sales to countries the UN frowns on. Just because it's not overt in it's participation in the wars it's hands are far from clean.
In Migrationverket if you say I am a educated Swedish graduate, I want to find a job to earn and live here, I need a visa extension you will probably be laughed at. But if you say I am asylum seeker, you get much more even before you ask. Thats how Sweden is losing whom they need o work for a sound economy and importing junks.
Policies doesn't effect overnight, but you need to foresee whats coming. If everybody will start wait for socials who would pay the taxes ?
If you haven't read autonomy's comment, please read it. This arrogance of native Swede is not going to carry them for long.
A clever immigrant with a Swedish University degree may become a taxi driver (or get some other low level jobs) and pay his/her student loan to CSN or may find a good job, but to find a good job or become unemployed is more possible! Sweden will get back student loan by interest, no matter if the clever immigrant become taxi driver or find a good job.
In other word it's the clever immigrant, who can't afford to become taxi driver with a university degree, Sweden get the money back with interest any way! The best way is emigration for the clever immigrant in Sweden; just an idiot would remain, or a clever one, who can't leave the country for some good reasons!
Im italian, earn a degree, speak four languages and have a 12 years background experience in my field, and yet, after almost two years in Stockholm, I seem to be constantly refused by employers. They do not even consider calling me in for an interview. I believe it is crazy and sort of discriminating that, due to my nationality, that has no history of "fake refugee ", the highest image I can have of myself, is for me to be a dishwasher, a waitress, a black paid barista.
Why encouraging immigration (legal in my case, as a member of the EU) if no possibilities to be part of the society is given? Why should I feel inferior?
What a disappointment for me, to see that one of the most "avantguard" countries in the world (or so they consider themselves) still judges and treats NORMAL, EDUCATED people as inferior just because they are not blond, blue eyed and have a swedish name.
Im sorry...I dont mean to generalize....I have met wonderful people here, but job wise, racism rate is high, and it s a fact.
i don't mind the discrimination if people are more open about it. they constantly deny the fact and they insult your intelligence by projecting the image - illusion of an open and equal society yet you seem not to find opportunities to contribute your quota to the system - be it at a professional or non-skilled level.
the truth is quite simple - the system is set up to encourage recipients of hand outs. uneducated, unintelligent and unmotivated immigrants from war ravaged countries. people with little to no aspirations. these are the people that Sweden wants. they do not want the educated, professional or highly skilled migrant that knows what they are doing and can challenge the statuesque.
this partly explains why for decades, Sweden offered free education to citizens across the globe but never really bothered to retain a significant portion of such highly educated demographic. instead, the country is awash with refugees and asylum seekers who never really bother to develop their competencies or takes jobs - they live off state handouts and make more babies to claim more upkeep funds from the state.
in the end, the average Swede can not make the distinction between a highly educated migrant and the so called refugees or asylum seeker on state welfare. we all get looped into the same category and are discriminated against or looked down on.
funny thing, most educated migrants out perform their Swedish contemporaries yet the system rewards mediocrity and frustrates genius. that is the Swedish way and if one is not comfortable with that - one is rightly advised to leave the country. surely, i will leave when i feel the time is right.
It's just natural that Swedes give jobs to Swedes first. After all it's their country.
Discussing it with low levels of hostility is admirable! Thank you.
I would really appreaciate if you could look at my CV. Both to consider it or to give me any tips.
What you are describing reflects my frustration in the past 5 years I have spent in Sweden, working under the command of unexperienced Swedes, 10 years younger than me, while I have to do the dirty work (literally) after 10 years of experience, having worked in multinational companies, and going through my second master.
Sweden has destroyed the ambitious business person striving for excellence I once was...
If you're serious, then send it to me in a message here on TL if you can. I'll certainly have a look, but it kind of depends what industry and role you're in as to whether my input will be of any use to you.
I couldn't agree with you more.
@Migga
Like most people who do not experience what immigrants/non-Swedes have to endure you would never understand. Do you have at least one non-Swedish friend? Maybe they can give you a bit of insight.
I am from the UK, and as a black man, most people tend to immediately think I am a refugee or asylum seeker of course until I speak and then they look a bit surprised and usually tone down their indifference somewhat but it doesn't really make for a comfortable situation in any case. Anyway, I was lucky enough to find a job here which was actually offered to me actually I was offered two different jobs because I have quite rare and quite in demand education and work background. So I can say that some employers are not as backward thinking and discriminatory as many others seem to be. However I will not delude myself into thinking that I would ever fit in here no matter how hard I work and how good I am. Therein lies the problem. Of course the UK, US and other countries have their immigration issues, however, if one works hard and is dedicated, one is rewarded and can move up the ladder. The company where I work there is a brilliant non-Swedish engineer that worked at the company from its inception yet he is merely an engineer, no chief or anything no project manager. Year after year they bring in new Swedish staff that are grossly under qualified compared to this postdoctoral genius. These Swedes become his boss, poorly manage projects, get fed up and leave and the cycle starts again. Another guy there that is from another European country studied in similar course as me spoke 4 languages (including Swedish) fluently and had excellent grades. Yet I was told, (yes blatantly informed) that he was by far the best qualified but he isn't Swedish so they weren't sure they would employ him. I vowed then and there that if they didn't hire him I would quit. However, after some discussion I guess his superiority was too hard to overlook, especially in a company that badly needs an influx of competence. In the end they did and he is a fantastic worker.
I enjoy my job and the challenge of it but I never fool myself into thinking I would be doing it for an appreciable amount of time and that I would ever be able to reach my pinnacle here. I just enjoy the challenges and the additional work experience while constantly preparing for my impending exodus. I am sure there are many others like me. Sweden wastes talent and that wastage will have a huge negative impact in the increasingly globalised world.
I look about as Swedish as you can get.
There are neighborhoods here in NYC that I do not go into because I look too different and experience has taught me that I am not welcome there.
Could I get a job there? LOL No way!
I understand that it depends on that, I just feel that I could use a professional without prejudices giving a look at my CV.
Thank you so much.
Try living as a Christian or other non-Muslim religion in Pakistan and it's almost impossible yet those Pakistanis/immigrants have NO choice and do not live in elite neighbourhoods like you apprently do.
I would not stay and 'suffer' as you do - you've only been in Sweden for 5 years now - it's not too late to go back.
I don't think you'll get much sympathy here when there is no real problem as you're not being physically harmed. Get real.
their solution? 'vi gillar olika' on facebook. yeah, vi gillar olika, we just don't hire them (unless they are cleaning our offices at nite. after we go home. so we don't have to see them).
I would say, there is no fairness in this world. Earning money or obtaining honorable awards is the only way to survive out of your home country. With as much money as possible in your pocket, whoever you are, immigrant or not, you give the order.
Look at Chinese, 30 years ago, nobody admits Chinese can reach out to Sweden but they bought Volvo and Saab from Americans. Can Swedes say no to them? I guess not. If there are no wars and the development of economy is balanced, immigration can be regarded as a "home move". Just because you are poor (less educated and less money), nobody would like to admit you as one of them. The only approach to pressure those people is to keep on upgrading yourself and become an influential member in this society. That is it! Until then, you move to any country you want to without caring whether Swedes accept you or not. Sweden is not the whole world! There are more countries out there!
Perhaps Sweden should abandon it's immigration policy so as to avoid having this problem in the future.
Those people from "undesirable" countries such as you mention obviously find Sweden "undesirable" also
I personally do see everyone equally the same. For me, if one was born or grew up in Sweden despite one's colour or heritage, he or she is a Swede. Hopefully one day pale skinned blond Swedes will realise that too. We should not all be identical in order to be accepted.
This pales into comparison with Copts in Eygpt who are hated and killed for not being Muslim - get a grip.