Swedish docs in circumcision protest

Never liked turtlenecks. I have to agree with Mustafa on this one. Wow, a first. Me agreeing with a muslim.

Genital mutilation should be banned, whether it's girls or boys, and especially when done for religious reasons. It should be illegal for children to be indoctrinated into any religion.

It's illegal even to make a pinprick on a girl's genitals. Why don't boys get the same protection?

Everyone should be able to decide for themselves whether or not they want parts of their genitals cut off. Their body, their decision.

I may be circumcised and "genitally mutilated" by the doctor's parlance, but at least I don't suffer from urine varnish, smegma, or other nasty stuff under the foreskin. Life is grand.

Parents make decisions regarding their children, that's true, but they are vested with a responsibility as adults to care for their children's well-being. Mutilating genitals is peverse in the extreme and particularly so for girls. The whole practice is primitive and should be stopped. It's an assault by a person with power over a person without power.

Local standards should prevail therefore no mutilations in Sweden!

Males who have been circumcised should be allowed to sue their parents, and granted 100K for damages.

If you give alcohol to a child in Sweden its illegal, if you create bruises and broken bones on a child its child abuse.. and yet its allowed to slice of parts of a BABY's body WITHOUT Anesthetic in most cultures in the name of religion. If parents decide that they will mutilate and cause a child pain for no other reason than to self satisfy their belief system and to enforce that belief on a child, its wrong.

This is a choice can be made throughout someones life at any point, if someone chooses to have their foreskin removed its THEIR CHOICE, If they want their foreskin back - they have NO CHOICE.

There is no such thing as urine varnish. Do you complain about smegma from womens' genitals? They produce 10 times more than a man can produce.

Two seconds in the shower, is the cost of penis maintenance. Circumcising babies to prevent that, is silly, and dangerous.

Nobody cares if someone likes turtlenecks, or hates them. If you hate them, don't associate with them. Again, it is no reason to surgically amputate a part of a child, to satisfy an adult's sexual tastes.

To Dr. Mustapha: Making a decision whether or not to vaccinate a child is quite a different matter from removing half the skin of their genitals, for life. One causes a momentary convenience. The other diminishes sensation forever. Removing the protective covering has its price. Maimonides documented the effects of circumcision hundreds of years ago, unflinchingly, and they hold true today.

Every person should have the choice of which healthy body parts they want to keep. No one has the right to take that away from them. The penis simply does not belong to anyone else. Circumcision is thievery, unless it is consensual.

Anytime I go to the pub and I meet some few/many Swedish guys urinating beside me, I always feel like what the heck!. That thing looks ugly like the turtle neck. No wonder why Swedish girls will never date a Swedish guy again when they have a taste of what this article called "assault". Ask your girls for their opinions and you will know that I am absolutely correct.

Removing the fore-skin does more good than harm. In fact, I will say it does not do any harm at all. There has been many debates about weather the sexual pleasure is reduced or not and nobody is sure. In my own opinion, too much of skin reduces sexual stimulation. It is a natural condom that has to be removed. It is like having a thick glove on your hand and you expect your fingers to have the same dexterity compared with when there is no glove at all. Sweden better grows up and learn from America.

@hackie your post has no relevance to the article.. If someone wants to have a circumcision for any or all of what you say, then that is their choice, they are an adult and as so can choose what to do with their body.

The fact that this happens to infants and that child has no choice, the fact that in 99% of cases is not required, the fact that if it wasnt the foreskin, but some other body part, say in a religions belief to remove the ears. would you still support that happening without thinking of the childs benefit and choses on how he or her would like to live their life.. if they Choose to remove their ears as an adult, its THEIR choice.

There is interesting article in Wikipedia about Circumcision.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision

It's common in Judaism as well, and not just Islam. It seems that it reduce the risk of HIV ( I have read about it somewhere else as well).

Anyway, it seems that Swedes have solved all the problems like unemployment for immigrants, and now it's time to pay attention to their penis!

I don't have a dog in this fight one way or the other. Not important to me. But, I am interested in the language that people use to support their cause. Circumcision is referred to by the Pediatric Society as a MUTILATION. Here is the Websters dictionary definition:

Mutilate(v): To cut off or permanently destroy an essential part.

I get it when some consider circumcision an assault. I am sympathetic to the little tike whose little thing is cut without much anesthesia. It hurts me just to think about it.

But, the foreskin is not an essential body part, and while a child may suffer some kind of psychological trauma as a result of the event, there is no permanent physical damage to the child. There is no mutilation. And, the mere fact that the Pediatric Society used such a word indicates to me that their decision is emotionally charged and based on social mores rather than medical facts.

Yikes, I've been mutilated! It must be the trauma that I've suffered from terrible act that makes me want to have sex constantly.

Those who advocate not circumcising nevertheless stress that lifelong penile hygiene is required. This acknowledges that something harmful or unpleasant is happening under the prepuce. Studies of middle-class British [Kalcev, 1964] and Scandanavian [Oster, 1968] schoolboys concluded that penile hygiene, as such, is at best poor and at worst non-existent. In the private British boarding school studied, 80% of the uncircumcised boys had poor genital hygiene, and the Danish study found 4% had phimosis and 33% had an adherent foreskin.

Furthermore, Dr Terry Russell, an Australian medical practitioner and circumcision expert states "What man after a night of passion is going to perform penile hygiene before rolling over and snoring the night away (with pathogenic organisms multiplying in the warm moist environment under the prepuce)" [Russell, 1993]. The bacteria start multiplying again immediately after washing and contribute, along with skin secretions, to the whitish film, termed 'smegma', that is found under the foreskin. - circinfo. net

Bravo to Svenska barnläkarföreningen, BLF for protecting the rights of children against brainwashed parents practicing a Bronze Age blood sacrificial ritual at the child's expense. Every excuse claiming medical, hygienic and preventative benefits through faulty research has been deconstructed and dismissed by reliable independent researchers (not paid by medical and pharmaceutical industries).

The foreskin is an organ and a nerve plexus (J.R. Taylor, British Journal of Urology '96 and '99 and Sorrells et al BJU April 2007)part of the male penis. Without it, however much a circumcised man craves and enjoys sex, it is unsatisfying, uncomfortable, even painful for women who can easily tell the difference between whole sex (delightful) and mutilated sex (awful). The equivalent, reverse situation would be if a partner's vagina caused tearing, scraping, pounding even injury to the male's penis. Such a man would quickly find another lover! Most women want to get as far away from circumcised men as possible; circumcision is a cause of avoidance of sex and divorce. It is very difficult for a woman to love a man whose penis hurts, instead of pleasuring her.

By great research and effort men have developing an excellent remedy, foreskin restoration; up to 200,000 men world wide are engaged in this and reverse many of the harms of circumcision to their own delight and their partners' too. Check FarReach.org and i4SkinHealth. Hopefully the info and links will help those compelled to mutilate infants to keep their hand and knives out of other people's diapers! - yes, infants are people!!!! with rights to whole bodies!!!! Immigrants should heed the wisdom of their adopted countries, especially BLF and the compassionate doctors who are its members. Semitic immigrants to Sweden, Finland and other Nordic countries, do so for reasons of political and economic oppression in their countries of origin, so it is hard to understand why they do not pass this favour onto their own infants whom they oppress by the harmful, tragic mutilating act of circumcising them. Leave all forms of cruelty behind and do not impose them on the new countries to which they emigrate and derive so much benefit. Better still, sent this information to friends and relatives and help them emerge into this new millennia.

BMwhite41, What's it like in your world? This is a non-sense debate. There are legitimate health reasons for circumcision and to have this operation later in life is more painful and dangerous. However most men who have had it done will have it done to their children with the opposite being true of the uncircumcised. As for sexual function I have never seen or heard any compelling evidence that it has any effect except perhaps for the reluctance of some women to perform fellatio on an uncircumcised man. I'm sure there will be those who swear to the contrary.

Valdemaratterdag (#4)

What more can I say? Tell them pls.

@ BackpackerKev (#11),

You made a good point in a futile way. How will you compare something useless (the foreskin) with something useful (the ear)?

@Svensksmith (#14)

Lucky you. Hehehe. At least you did not suffer from something that will make you smell and get pissed off from sex :P

@Taketh (#15),

Nice post.

Nontheraputic surgery of a nonconsenting person's genitals IS mutilation. Circumcision intentionally removes the foreskin (which contains more than 10,000 nerve endings) and the frenulum breve (which is so sensitive that paralyzed men often obtain erections from stimulation of it). Circumcision has a 100% complication rate which includes scarring, disfigurement, lack of natural function, and decreased sensivity. It leaves many men to be sexual cripples and claims many lives. Amitai Moshe, Jamaal Coleson, Jr., Ryleigh McWillis. Google them. All innocent young children who died from circumcision. Is circumcision worth a child's life? No.

Visit noharmm.org, thewholenetwork.org, drmomma.org, and circumstitions.com or check out "peaceful parenting" and the "The Whole Network" on Facebook.

Both male and female circumcision if done for non-medical reasons are wrong. The ancient Hebrews/Jews believed God wanted them to mutilate their bodies by circumcision so the Bible god could tell who was a Hebrew/Jew. That is foolishness. There is no valid reason to mutilate a design of Nature's God.

Circumcision is one more reason we should follow the American founder and Deist Thomas Paine's advice in his important book, The Age of Reason, The Complete Edition. Paine called for a revolution in religion based on our God-given reason and Deism.

Progress! Bob Johnson

www.deism.com

this is the same racist Nazi bullshit they tried in the 1930s, These days the UN and WHO have a medical report that stated that male circumcision is beneficial for both boys and their partners as it reduces the spread of HIV and other SDs like sifelis, But Swedish and Dutch docs just ignore the science and let their political pregides rather than science run their actions.

look at the who report at http://www.who.int/hiv/topics/malecircumcision/en/

@tgolan, Condoms are the only undisputed proven method of preventing the spread of HIV/AIDS for vaginal, anal, and oral sex in both heterosexual and homosexual relationships. A man's circumcision status does not affect the effectiveness of a condom. Circumcised men can and do get HIV/AIDS. Countries with higher male circumcision rates often have higher HIV rates than countries that do not routinely circumcise. The United States has a male circumcision rate of 80% and an HIV rate of 0.6%. Japan has a circumcision rate of less than 1% and an HIV rate of 0.01%. That means that the USA's HIV rate is 60% higher than Japan's. These HIV numbers were also taken from the World Health Organization.

@MurasakiSunshine, i think the reason there are lower HIV/AIDS cases in japan than in America is probable because the Japanese are not as sexually active as the Americans. an average japanese may have fewer partners than the average american in his/ her lifetime and this lack of sexual activities is one of the factors contributing to the country´s falling birth rate. i´m not trying to mock japan here. i saw a BBC documentary on the falling birth rate in japan a couple of weeks ago where the japanese government is encouraging people to engage more in sex. and one can not deny the role safe sex education also plays in your statistics

@dizzy09, Japan has a higher rate of condom usage than the United States, partly because the birth control pill is not in widespread use there (many women believe it will make them gain weight, will make them infertile, or cannot afford it). It proves that proper sex education is more effective than circumcision at preventing HIV.

Well if they stop the savages who are currently chopping off young girls' clitorises in the name of Islam will probably pick up the slack.

Better it gets done in a hospital than someone's basement.

I know some boys and girls are not happy with their "names" and some of them changes their name or picks a nickname.

The question is here:

Since the child can not decide for Her/his name, should we allow the parents to choose a "name" for their children?

The only "assault" is when a girl goes down on a dude that has an ant eater.

You can change your name. You cannot change your circumcision. It's permanent. Forever. It can't be undone. Your name won't kill you. A circumcision can kill you. You legally have to have a name. You do not legally have to have a circumcision.

It is strange. How many of you who comment have really thought about it.

I am circumcised And though I was not sure what to do for my son.(YES.. Both me and his mother talked about it) and it came down to two things. It is safer -life wise- and it would be less confusing for him if we looked the same. It has not caused me any problems in life and as I do not know how to perform "Penile-hygene" how can I teach my son???

Then there are the many arguments about How dare I. Well I am a father and I made a decision based on "WHAT I THOUGHT WAS BEST" for my son. Hmmmmmmmmm. Maybe I was wrong, Maybe I was right???? I don't know thqat is something my son will decide. NOT YOU!

Furthermore, Dr Terry Russell, an Australian medical practitioner and circumcision expert states "What man after a night of passion is going to perform penile hygiene before rolling over and snoring the night away (with pathogenic organisms multiplying in the warm moist environment under the prepuce)" [Russell, 1993]. The bacteria start multiplying again immediately after washing and contribute, along with skin secretions, to the whitish film, termed 'smegma', that is found under the foreskin. - circinfo. net

@bmwhite41@hotmail.com

Most women want to get as far away from circumcised men as possible; circumcision is a cause of avoidance of sex and divorce. It is very difficult for a woman to love a man whose penis hurts, instead of pleasuring her.

Lyer, Cretin..... Use facts not emotional Cr%¤p.

up to 200,000 men world wide are engaged in this????? Prove it!!!

@MurasakiSunshine

Circumcision has a 100% complication rate which includes scarring, disfigurement, lack of natural function, and decreased sensivity.

Yea really: Hmmm then I must be the 10000000% noty included in this survey. Cause I AM circumsised and I HAVE NO complications.

@ Deist Circumcision is done for logical reasons.... There is a much higer rate of PENILE cancer in un-circked males (About 40% higher).

well, there are always pro and con about everything. i think this is about the right for the parents if they are deciding to do so....

my point will be, if sweden is such a freedom country, they should be respected with other races (american), religion (muslim, jewish), sexual preferences.

if the parents want THEIR baby to get circumcised, LET THEM DO IT. Swedish Paediatric Society, if u dont believed, DONT DO IT to your child...period!!

Why do people care about each other's dicks? Are you going to be licking them? No. As long as they don't chop the whole thing off, let them be. Besides, I was circumcised and it's function has not changed, and it has left no scars nor has it left me with fear or any other crap people against circumcision claim.

So many ignorant comments from circumcised men who don't know what they are missing.... (Listen to yourself, TheWatchman: "Let them be.") It will be news to most Swedish women that they don't like having sex with intact men.

Dr Terry Russell makes his living from cutting boys' genitals - one of the last doctors left in Australia who does it. He has been fined $A4,400 for performing unnecessary surgeries. Circinfo.nt is the website of another circumcision fanatic.

There is no other normal, healthy, integral, functional, non-renewing body part that may be cut off a baby at parental whim. Why is this one an exception?

@Omar Mustafa: vaccination offers strong, proved protection against deadly contagious diseases of children, now rare precisely because of vaccination. Circumcision debatably offers slight protection against already-rare diseases of late onset that can be prevented by other means or treated as they occur. It is a "cure" looking for a disease.

I see ... and do people have such strong convictions when it comes to parents having their toddler's ears pierced?

What I hate about this subject is circumcised men talking about themselves as if their chopped up dicks are the norm and that men with their full penis intact are somehow freaks. Only in this bizarre primitive upside down world of ours can you hear such garbage.

The foreskin is there for a reason, it's encoded into our DNA for a reason. Maybe that reason hasn't been fully understood yet (like the appendix or tonsils) but it will be eventually.

The truth is YOU were abused as a child for no logical reason other than to conform to some ancient vague religious bullshit handed down from primitive people.. Accept it, move on and stop looking down your nose at uncircumcised men as if you were a member of some exclusive men's club and the others are beneath you.

And the usual bull about hygiene? Give me a break. Teach your sons the importance of washing themselves and they will have no problems. It takes 2 seconds. If you don't teach your son how to clean himself properly and the importance of proper hygiene you are a lousy parent.

Um. It's not like a vaccine. That could save your life. cutting off a piece of your body doesn't save life, and neither would you be able to get it back. Should certainly be a choice for the INDIVIDUAL.

The following link will show a complication of circumcision. View at your own discretion.

http://www.circumstitions.com/Botched3.html#gangrene

Oh yet again tolerant openminded Europe has a difficult time ACCEPTING that members of a non white, non Christian minority are perhaps do not need a savior to rescue them. The members of the Abrahamic faith ( Jews and Muslims) have chosen to follow these practices in obedience to God. God. Obedience. I know they are difficult notions to wrap your heads around, but at least try! Furthermore, I hardly hear circumcised men ( or their women) complaining about the issue of circumcision. Is it that this is just another arrogant ploy to try to convince Muslims that your non Islamic values are superior to theirs?? I truly find it fascinating that you all follow your religious traditions when it's suits your childish whimsies but actually have the nerve to condemn other people's traditions. Respect is a two way street! Anyone can appear to be broadminded and tolerant when EVERYONE believes the same way. You thought yourselves tolerant? You thought yourselves broadminded? God sent you different people to live amongst you to show you that you aren't broad-minded and tolerant at all. Grow up!

@blursd: Ear-piercing removes no tissue, and if the person leaves the earrings out the holes will close over. Circumcision is lifelong.

@Andersonville: Nobody cares if people slash their own bodies, have themselves hung on crosses or walk throught the streets flagellating themselves with razor wire. It's only when they start doing it to non-consenting other people - especially cutting (normal, healthy, integral, funtional, non-regrowing) parts off helpless children, any such parts, any children - that universal human values kick in.

Children's bodies used as billboards for other's beliefs is evil when not done for medical necessity as a last resort. Children are not property.

Circumcise the boy, you circumcise the man. It's a man's decision for himself only. Everyone is born with rights to body integrity. Sweden rocks it's ideals.

@Andersonville

Exactly. Circumcised people aren't trying to change anyone. It is actually a violation of religious rights to make it illegal, because it actually means we are not part of that religion (or at least in Judaism from what I know). It is pretty much like banning Synagogues or Churches.

Foreskin feels REALLY good. HIS body, HIS decision.

NOT ONE national medical association on earth (not even Israel's) endorses routine infant circumcision.

I am circumcised and my penis looks great. Plus my girl friend loves it in her mouth when its still soft. No bacteria to deal with...

@ TheWatchman

Luckily, we're living in a country which values human rights, child rights and civility over "religious rights" and quite rightly too.

Circumcision IS mutilation

Circumcision IS child abuse

Circumcision IS abhorrent

Circumcision IS NOT necessary

Circumcision IS NOT any more "healthy"

If a child wished to do that to himself once he reaches an appropriate age of consent then so be it.... I don't see many mature males choosing to have part of their penis chopped off.

Religious reasons apart, circumcision is beneficial to the health, not only of men but of their partners. I have heard that the rate of cancer in reproductive systems of Jewish and other women from cultures which this is practiced is much below the rates in countries who don't practice it.

@ karex

correlation does not equal causation. abot about the face that a large proportion of Jewish people come from places with a very different socio-economic background. The lifestyle a person leads is FAR more an issue with the causes of cancer eg: fatty foods, smoking etc.. it just happens that Jewish people on average live more healthily in terms of cancer causing lifestyle than the world average. Putting this down to skin being cut off the penis if ridiculous and very bad science.

we'll just do it outside sweden, if it gets forbidden :D

we win again and get the cutest penises

Since halal/kosher slaughter is already forbidden in Sweden, as well as prayer call from the mosque rockets, and now circumcision on the basis of religion may be forbidden, why stop there? There is so many of these primitive, dark age practises we can get rid of.

I agree to this statement.

It's cruel to decide for the kid,

but you shouldn't ban it you should just make an age restriction.

I'm not pro or against circumcision of boys but my problem is when some people are trying to demonize anything and everything practiced by non-whites, non-Christians as something barbaric, savage, primitive. the same people who call themselves advocates of children's rights are performing between 30,000 and 38,000 abortions every year in Sweden. which one is savage? cutting off a piece of flesh or killing??? stop double standard & Hypocrisy

@awash

Bravo!

Let the child decide by himself when he reaches 18 years. Everything else is a sadism.

@hackie

"Sweden better grows up and learn from America. "

Damn right, STD rates in America are just among the worst in the developped world ( HIV rate is 6 times higher than in Sweden...), and it's the only developped country that circumcises most of its boys.

A few decades ago circumcision used to be the norm in UK, New-Zealand, Australia and Canada ; all of them have now totally or mostly abandonned it, and all of them have lower STD rates than USA. In Australia they BANNED circumcision from public hospital.

By your comment it looks like you don't even know a foreskin can be retracted?

@ awash

Abortion is also being carried out by non-whites and non-Christians. It truely is people like you who EVERYONE has a problem with i.e. "we do this, but YOU do that, therefore what we do is fine." Where in the above article does it say that abortion is okay? Just because it's okay in Sweden to have an abortion, doesn't make it okay to mutilate babies.

Some abortions are necessary unfortunately, like if the mother's and/or the babiy's life is in danger. Some would argue that it's even necessary for unwanted pregnancies to be aborted because it's better than giving a child a horrible life where they're not wanted. It's very sad no matter what that unwanted pregnancies are aborted but I bet there are far less of these type of abortions being carried out than religious circumcisions.

It's up to you if you want to be part of a religion, but since when is it okay to decide a baby is a muslim (or any other religion) if he/she has to go through a painful procedure in order to become one? Are they going to die if they don't get part of their penis cut off this young? I doubt it. So far, muslims and jews are only getting away with religous circumcisions because this country's constituation allows it, stating that people can practise their religion freely. But doctors have had enough and it's becoming more about human rights overall.

It's not about westerners looking down on certain cultural groups and their practises, this is about the human rights of babies. They deserve to live with their penises intact don't you think? Human rights are more important than religious rights alone.

@lovebobu

"if sweden is such a freedom country" ...

Why the heck are you telling me that my parents are "free" to choose how much of my penis I'm allowed to keep? Isn't that MY freedom? Would you say that about a baby girl's clitoral hood too? Or is clitoral hood somehow much more important than foreskin?

http://www.tradera.com/utmarkta-handarbete-johanson-i-glas-flaska-auktion_341132_149568005

Government should stay out of family affairs.

American men, relax and stop taking offense. Just because you were circumcised, doesn't mean you should defend it. So maybe you turned out OK, and no apologies needed. That doesn't mean it's necessary. First, do no harm. The case for male circumcision has become weaker and is now just pathetically weak. The claim of hygiene has slowly but surely been debunked, even considering disease prevention. Just admit it, that an ancient cultural ritual really has no modern medical evidence to stand on. Stop taking it personally. There is no good reason to do it. Make jokes about smegma, but I'm pretty sure that Swedish women in general still prefer intact males. Do your son a favor, and let him decide.

@intruder,

well after all, they are your parents...you can also have your right not to be a christian even you parents are.

my point just as simple as that, if there is any kind of religious belief or races that pro the circumcised, LET THEM DO IT. Stop putting your ideas and believe in somebody shoes because they are not you. this is so called respected toward the differences... and for those kids who was born to the American and want their foreskin back... honey, c'est la vie.. just dont do that to ur kids in the future then .........period

@ Diliner

Welcome to Sweden, it's what the government does and in this case quite rightly. if a parent chooses to have their son circumcised then i'd be thankful that the government would step in to say no. I'm all for free choice but if that free choice is pants-on-head retarded then someone needs to set things straight.

@ lovebobu

Again, Welcome to the civilised world where, quite rightly, undue "respect" for religion is being undermined and the rule of law and common sense is more important. I'm very glad I live in Sweden and grew up in the UK where religion has so little influence on policy and decision making. Otherwise things would be as screwed as in the middle east or the USA.

@slash_gordon, it makes me puke how you tried to justify the killing of an unborn fetus and compare it with the cutting off a bit of a useless flesh of a baby boy. I never said boys should be circumcised but don't make it sound like some super barbaric habits while you allow more than 30thousand unborn lives to be massacred every year. Please check your facts straight :"The current legislation is the Abortion Act of 1974 (SFS 1974:595). This states that up until the end of the eighteenth week of the pregnancy the choice of an abortion is entirely up to the woman, for any reason whatsoever." so, are you telling us that over 30thousands of such abortions are performed in best interest of the child & the mother? My father forced my mother to abort my youngest brother because he thought it was unwanted; fortunately he survived that and you know what he graduated from law school and got married on Saturday. More surprise, he's circumcised & I don't think his British wife has no problem with it:)) If you really care about the child "choice", respect his choice to LIVE as well, bingo!!!

I think a person who look at a little baby and think "Yeah, let's cut a piece of this off!" is really, really sick. You just dont do such things to a little baby! It's just wierd. How could a parent even consider to let anybody do that to their child? The normal reaction if someone came up to you with a knife and asked "Hello! Could i cut a piece of your baby's genitals off? Do you mind?" is to run and call the police and warn other parents that there's a psycho in the neighborhood!

Unbelievable..

If you are in favour of circumcision because of religious beliefs then you must ask yourself why God designed the foreskin in the first place if he then wants you to cut it off. Are you saying that God made such a terrible mistake that it has to be corrected by cutting off a piece of the penis? I thought that God was this infallible, wise deity who created man in his image - and that surely must mean that the foreskin is part of that image. God put it there - so why cut it off?

If you aren't religious and still support circumcision then I'd like to know why the foreskin evolved. If it is as useless and even a threat to heaalth as some people claim - why has mankind evolved the foreskin?

Whatever the reasons - it should not be done to an infant on the say-so of its parent. Does anyone support the right of parents to have a baby's nipples pierced or have David Beckham's face tattooed onto its chest? It all boils down to the same thing - a helpless child's right to be protected from harm and not to be mutilated on the whim of an adult. Let the child decide for himself when he becomes a man.

@Lotus2035, Well said!

'The foreskin is there for a reason, it's encoded into our DNA for a reason. Maybe that reason hasn't been fully understood yet (like the appendix or tonsils) but it will be eventually.'

The only sensible comment I have seen so far on this thread.

@lovebobu

"you can also have your right not to be a christian even you parents are."

You say that and yet you deny a man's right to choose if he wants HIS penis circumcised or not?....

What about parents who want to trim their daughter's labias or clitoral hood, should they be allowed to do it because "they are her parents after all", and it is "respect toward the differences", and anyway if she doesn't like it "honey, c'est la vie" ( = stop whining that was just a piece of your genitals) ?

Either you answer "yes" to that, OR you explain me how removing a clitoral hood is different from removing a foreskin.

I find it ironic that people are complaining about abortion but see circumcision as a personal decision. It's not okay to "cut up a baby" before they're born but it's a "right" to cut them up after they're born? You don't care if it kills the baby then?

#66

Easy. An embryo is a part of someone's body. A boy child is a separate individual.

@klubbnika, I'm pro-choice. I just find it hypocritical that they only care abou the welfare of a "child" before it's born. They don't care what you do it afterwards.

Jews and Muslims religious leaders advocated male circumcision shortly after birth as a health measure. The environment and temperatures in the Middle East made baby boys susceptible to infection from the lack of clean water to bathe the little penis. The way to ensure that people carried out good hygiene was to enshrine it into religious law.

It is not confined to Jews and Muslims, many Christians and others also circumcise baby boys. I was circumcised as during the war it was seen as a healthier way. I am glad that I had it done at an age when I felt little pain as a friend of mine in his 20's got an infection that could not be cleared up without being circumcised. That is something to make your eyes water!!

Sweden has freedom of religion, that includes things that may not be in line with ones own religion or personal beliefs.

The parents of these children have the right to make these choice for their children, just as parents have the right to choose if their child is to be vaccinated, or what to feed a child, or whether to homeschool, public school or private school them.

It is not an assault, it is a religious act that does not cause any harm to the child.

No, I am not jewish, but I believe in freedom of religion and that these rights should not be violated because a doctor has a different world view!

Look if it anit broke dont fix it. So some of these guys reckon the human species got it wrong, this is a bad design, a design fault. It would have been better if we all didnt have a foreskin. So cut it off. Rubbish to all the crap about hygine, aids, syph etc. Like any part of the body it must be kept washed or it will ceate problems. Of course if it goes wrong and is causing problems then on medical advice it should be removed like any other part of the body that goes wrong. But to remove it for hygine purposes in hot climates - mid east ( Jews and Muslims) is anachronistic rubbish. What about all the uncircumsised people living there and in the world - we are all gonna die!!! Get your scalpels out quick. You dont need to do this - its meant to be that way - leave it alone.

I knew it that this discussion will create a lot of traffic. There is nothing we can say that can convince the uncircumcised guys. No wonder why they make the loudest noise whenever there is a discussion about circumcision. Most of them wish they were circumcised but unfortunately, it is rather to late for them because they are prone to infections during the process due to so many bacteria that have been residing in their turtle necks throughout their lifetime. Thanks to my parents for their smart decision getting me circumcised when I was a toddler :P

@hackie: "Most of them wish they were circumcised" Utter nonsense! "they are prone to infections during the process due to so many bacteria" You think doctors can't clean up an area to operate? Silly.

@Trenatos: Circumcision is nothing like your analogies. It is permanent, reductive, has risk (up to and including death) and harm. The person's own religious freedom (suppose he becomes a Sikh - they don't even cut the hair) trumps his parents' for something as permanent as this.

@Rick Methven: under the conditions it began, with stone tools and no asepsis, circumcision would have killed far more babies than it ever protected. Rabbis used to discuss how many brothers might die before one could be spared circumcision. Circumcision is contrary to Christian teaching (Gal 5:2). Your friend is a vivid instance but the vast majority of men never need to be circumcised.

@awash: we may disagree about when human rights begin, but they do not END at birth.

@Dr Dilner: Family affairs? As one man said, but more colourfully -

"My family doesn't [urinate] with my [penis], my family doesn't [masturbate] with my [penis] and my family doesn't [have sexual intercourse] with my [penis], so what business did my family have to go cutting part OFF of my [penis]?"

I am here to stand my opinion that person should be free to exercise their choices as parents who hope the best for their children, I'm speaking in a perspective of those who are open minded and believer that parents are the creation of their baby.

What people are saying here is about blocking the Islamic or Jewish religion practical. If u are fighting for the children right to keep their genital skin, isn't it wiser to educated the parents then.

If circumcised dont do any good, teach them, show them, tell hospital to educate them. Parents don't cut their daughter virgigi skin out coz they KNOW it's not good.

Of course, if it's a norm for not circumcised in sweden, people who are from aboard should respect that and I don't care if the SWEDISH hospital prohibited this activity, they have to deal with the Swedish (fakly )free healthcare. U have no other choice but just follow! In this case, I see this case as a child who born in Swedish are protected by Swedish NORM.

Don't forces people to do thing the way u think is the RIGHT way coz people are all different. They value of freedom might be different from you. That's all I can say

@intruder : removing clitoral is medically proved to be harm to the baby girls and we all know that because we have been educated... so there is a different.

@hugh7 I've never heard of anyone dying from a circumcision performed by a doctor, feel free to show us some sources on that claim.

Granted, I don't think it should be done to small children, if done by Jewish religious views, then it happens around age 13 if I remember correctly, and is a rite of passage.

The article says "young boys" without specifying the age, without that information we have no idea if they're referring to infants or 13 year old kids. (A 13 year old boy is indeed a young boy by most adults standards).

Freedom of religion means any religion that doesn't violate basic human rights.

@lovebobu

"removing clitoral is medically proved to be harm to the baby girls and we all know that because we have been educated..."

Many "know" that, yet no one has ever been able to show me a study that supports this claim. Adult women have clitoral hood/labias trimmed as plastic surgery, quite obviously it's not harmful!

But if you don't like this example, OK, what if I think it's better for my kid to have an earlobe trimmed? Earlobe is useless isn't it?

"Parents don't cut their daughter virgigi skin out coz they KNOW it's not good. "

Parents DO cut their daughter's "virgigi skin", what planet do you live on? They can't do it in Sweden because it's ILLEGAL. ( I guess it would be better to keep it legal and just "educate" them, hm? Nothing easier than educating people about their religious practice.)

Am surprise at this decision. Is circumcision creating problems in the society??? Have we had a situation where the boys have had permanant problems as a result of this practices??? when you have multicultura and multireligious society, things like these that do not cause harm medically should not be abolished because some people in the society are not used to it. It looks to me that was basis for their decision.

@Eben

"Have we had a situation where the boys have had permanant problems as a result of this practices???"

No, of course not, surgeries NEVER go wrong...

It seems that circumcised men do not know what they are missing especially with the extra nerve endings uncircumcised men have... oh well, your loss - blame your parents for that one!

It's a bit like a parent choosing to cut off a hand off their baby son because their parents cut theirs off... but it's ok, the kid will not know any difference, they will not know what their missing!

Obviously, the body parts are there for a reason. Let your child make their own decision when they are old enough to understand what they are doing to their own body.

I am a victim of male genital mutilation, commonly known as circumcision. I am NOT happy with having my most sensitive body part painfully amputated, leaving me with an ugly scar, loss of sexual function, loss of sensitivity, and a dry keratinized glans. Circumcision is almost always forced upon children. It is rape with a knife, in my opinion. It needs to come to a quick and complete end. The adults who are using knives on children's genitals should be sent to prison for life. Health and religious myths can no longer be used as an excuse.

@karex: "I have heard that the rate of cancer in reproductive systems of Jewish and other women from cultures which this is practiced is much below the rates in countries who don't practice it."

I've also heard that if you perform mastectomies on young women, then their risk of developing breast cancer later in life is pretty much completely eliminated. So shall we have all women get mastectomies?

It was prophesied that a time would arise when many people would not know the difference between right and wrong. The Swedish Paediatric Society comparing circumcision to child abuse is like comparing a car wash to a multiple fatality pile up.

@kingrivera: bad impersonation to say the least; your camouflage shows how shallow & bigoted you're. we the ones who are circumcised have never experienced non of the rubbish you mentioned at all; stay with your turtle neck and keep it clean:). do you really care about a child's right, then make some NOISE to outlaw the killings of tens of thousands of creatures every year, who could have been doctors, nurses, presidents, lawyers etc etc.

84 comments and counting. Are we a bit obsessed with the Phallus?

I still find it difficult to truly understand the Swedish state's zeal for abducting children from their parents on tenuous allegations of abuse, but the comments on this article have gotten me somewhat closer. Male circumcision - a rite common to the practice of two major world religions - is mutilation. Could the BLF have chosen a more bigoted word? Yet an elective abortion on grounds that the baby is a male and the mother wants a female is "women's health". So let's ban circumcision to save foreskins and celebrate the elective abortion of males.

A people willing to entertain the forgoing insanity as "reason" won't hesitate to violate an individual's fundamental liberty to practice his religious faith according to the dictates of his own conscience. So let's just cut to the chase here: Shouldn't Sweden just ban religion altogether? Seriously, why do it incrementally when it can be done all at once?

@Lavaux

"won't hesitate to violate an individual's fundamental liberty to practice his religious faith "

It's illegal for parents to as much as pinprick the clitoral HOOD of their daughter even if it's part of their religious faith. I don't see anyone going "omg it violates their fundamental liberty to practice their religious faith", quite the opposite. If you know a good reason why religion justifies male circumcision ( = body-modifying SURGERY on a minor, something otherwise totally illegal ) but not for clitoral pinpricking, I'd be glad to hear it.

As always, there is quite a lot of ignorant and biased nonsense posted.

Many of the old Jewish biblical rules setout by God (belief or not is unimportant) were also rules to contribute towards overall health including hygience.

During the plagues in Europe, "civilised" Christians were being wiped out because of lack of hygience, while many Jews were unaffected. The Christians accused the Jews of poisoning water wells used by Jew and gentile. Jews had a rudimentary knowledge of washing their hands after toileting, before eating food etc. Even today, many "gentiles" do not wash their hands, as can be witnessed in any public toilets, both male and female!

Circumcision is another method of hygience. Female cervical cancer among Jewish women is considerably lower than among non Jewis women. Israel has been asked to participate in helping African nations to circumcise young males (Jewish circucision is at 8 days old) in order to lower HIV. Foreskin collects and holds masses of bacteria unlike Jewish and Moslems and others whose penises have been "shnickled." So pity the poor woman who allows herself to be penetrated by such filth.

Certainly, without foreskin, it is easier not to become a 2 minutes wonder. There is no foreskin to wobble around and therefore, one can hold ejaculation far longer and give the woman greater pleasure. So if you want a far more appreciative sex partner, be circumcised, wash your hands and enjoy a longer active life.

@motti

I don't see how the hygiene habits of people who didn't have running water are relevant to Sweden. And even back then, seriously... Wounding a baby's penis with a dirty knife in a dirty setting to PREVENT infections?? Believe that if it makes you feel better. Anuses and vulvas are much filthier than penises, yet people deal with them just fine and without surgery (and no one "pities" the poor man who gets in contact with a vulva ...).

"There is no foreskin to wobble around and therefore, one can hold ejaculation far longer"

This have been disproven several times, but again, believe that if it makes you feel better. YOu seem to like jew, so here is what Maimonides said about circumcision :

"Similarly with regard to circumcision, one of the reasons for it is, in my opinion, the wish to bring about a decrease in sexual intercourse and a weakening of the organ in question, so that this activity be diminished and the organ be in as quiet a state as possible."

Up to you, can you quote an ancient jew telling about the hygienic virtue of circumcision?

@intruder. Do you mean to tell me that all Swdes with running water wash their hands after toilet and before preparing and eating food? Surely not?

I have yet to know why the hygienic standards of a Jewish mohel are below those of a hospital. Your arguement there is siolly. A dirty knife? Where do you obtain this inmformation?

I wikipediad and found the following about Rabbi Maimonides; He insisted faith should be the only reason for circumcision and recognised that it was a very hard thing to do to oneself. It was done to quell all the impulses of matter and perfect what is de the penis weaKENED and in sop doing dfective morally. He claimed bleeding and loss of protective covering rendered had the effect of reducing a man's lustful thoughts and make sex less pleasurable and also warned it was hard for a woman with whom an uncicumcisewd man has had sexual intercourse to sperate from him.

I'm unsure exactly what is meant. It is against Jewish law to have sex with a woman when she is bleeding. The man is unable to have sex when his penis is bleeding and Jewish males have it done when they 8 days old.

From ym own personal experience an d I am truthful and serious. I have lusted for many years, and never had problems with being hard, holding ejaculation and finally ejaculate. In fact as a young man, I was quite the 1960's stud.

It is now the eve of the sabbath and will try to get back to you regarding your question, unless somelse is able to do so in the meantime

"Circumcision of infants or other minors has no place among HIV control measures in the Australian and New Zealand context; proposals such as these should be rejected." - Australian and New Zealand Journal of Public Health, Volume 35, Issue 5, Pages 459-465, October 2011 (Robert Darby, Robert Van Howe)

"Do you mean to tell me that all Swdes with running water wash their hands after toilet and before preparing and eating food?"

How does this relate to circumcision? What I mean is that we don't have to brush our teeth with urine anymore, because we have water and toothpaste. Even if you think circumcision WAS useful as a hygiene measure, it's clearly outdated.

"A dirty knife? Where do you obtain this inmformation?"

You said ANCIENT jews practiced circumcision as a "health" measure. Obviously the setting and instruments couldn't be all that clean (even today people get infections at hospital), and infections couldn't be treated. At the beggining of the 20th century a frenchman visited muslim countries, and reported after circumcision little boys sometimes couldn't walk for weeks and many ended up with disastrous infections and died. An eariler comment mentioned "Rabbis used to discuss how many brothers might die before one could be spared circumcision", there is no reference but it makes perfect sense to me.

Again, I'm not saying there isn't any but I have never read a quote from an "ancient" jew telling about how circumcision is hygienic and/or prevents diseases. Until then, I'm certainly not going to believe hygiene was a reason. (and even then, I'm not going to believe it was a wise thing to do )

No and I am unable to find any medieval writings about circumcision, either for or against.Certainly, I was unable to find any proof of the Rabbis making the allegation you made reagrding brothers dying before circumcision. There again, even today, some people still believe that matza (unleavened bread) is made from the blood of gentile children. Even though Jewish law is emphatic that human sacrifice is 100% forbidden.

The number of Jewish boys being totally mutilated or have died from Jewish circumcision is rare to say the least. Of course one innocent life taken is one too mant. Inaccordance with Jewish tradtion, to save one life is akin to saving mankind.

You mentioned dirty knifes first, I simply put this into context regarding hygiene. Much of Jewish law, although related to commandments, are also as we learn today, specific to cleanliness of mind and body.

I disagree with many laws and traditions. However, there appears to be a distinct atrtack on Jewish circumcision and Jewish dietery lws and one wonders why? Are all the arguements specifically aimed at alleged mispractise, or ust another type of attack that hasd been forced against Jews for thousands of years? Only those who do criticise can answer truthfully.

There are too many medical reports how male circumcision has benefited males.There will always be controversy, those for and against. In Moslem countris the practise of circumcision is 8 years as that was the age that Avraham circumcised Ishmael, as against 8 days old for Jewish males. I suppose accusations can be made against yhose who choose to immuniseor not young children and babies because of their fears.

So I suggest you have the choice to believe or disbelieve, but does that give you the right to dictate to others how they must live?

Your religion is not a free pass to do whatever you want to a child. A child deserves to have a say in how much of his penis he gets to keep. Sweden is not obligated to give protected rights to groups who want to circumcise girls or boys. Many activists against female circumcision, like Ayaan Hirsi Ali (who is circumcised female Dutch politician), are also against circumcision of boys. Circumcision has no medical benefits, it's dangerous, and it violate's the boy's right to have a normal and healthy body.

Please read comments above. do you not innoculate children. do you not send them to school and make other obligations on their behalf? To be circumcised is to retain a healthy body. If you have your appendix out, do you not retain a healthy Body.

Some people believe that circumcision does not add to good health. However, more and more want their baby boys to be circumcised as they believe it is healthy.

Your lack of a religion does not give you a free pass either to tell others what they can and cannot do. either you live in a democracy with freedom of choice and speech, or you don't.

"However, more and more want their baby boys to be circumcised as they believe it is healthy."

Just because you want to believe something doesn't give you the right to claim it's true.

Circumcision is condemned by medical authorities in UK, recently Netherland (look up "KNMG circumcision", very interesting), and now Sweden.

In Canada, Australia and New Zealand, from being the norm in the 1950s it's now minoritary ( Canada ~32%, Australia

Circumcision is mutilation, period. Men who "suffer from smegma" might try and wash their dicks every once in awhile. It's pretty easy. All kidding aside, there are absolutely no medical reasons to do it, nor are there any legit religious reasons (religious reasons are never legit.) Ban that s**t.

Intruder, I can repeat exactly what you have stated, too. If you want to believe your statement.... The WHO is backing the circumcision programme in its entiity. There is enough evidence on wikipedai for circumcision and against for people tp make a decision for themselves.

Certain countries have banned or want to ban circumcision and kashrut, simply because of the /Jewish nature. Your neighbour Norway forbade Kashrut Jewish slaughter even before the Nazi occupation. It can't be due to animal protection, after all Norway is a country that embraces hunting and killing of deer, elk, whales etc That countries want to ban or encourage somethingdoes not mean the decision has been made for the correct decision. It can be for political, cultural reasons and just out of spite. It is possible WHO are for circumcision due to the billion and 1/2 Muslims arouind the world and they don't wish to upset them, as against perhaps 12 million Jews.

Have a look and see how many countries do practice it and as mentioned above, wikipedia and you'll see that many (nonMuslim) countries are now being spearheaded by an Israeli progreamme . Circumcision is a tool used against the spread of Aids and HIV. Is that such a bad thing?

As for jamesblish, your rhetoric that religious laws are s**t, sadly shows your complete inadequacy to put forward a stringent arguement or discussion. It is Jewish religious laws that are the bulwark for western civilisation. Do not murder, steal, etc etc etc. Try reading a little more and absorb facts before you make such idiotic remarks. However, judging by your remarks and how you have expressed yourself, leaves me in no doubt, that those laws are aimed at people, such as your self. How pitiful.

I think many commentators have lost direction here and they are against circumcision per se just because it represents a certain group of people !

Talking about dangers of circumcision, I am a doctor and I have never seen a male dying of circumcision, I have , however seen many young bous and girls Die of drugs!

I have never seen a man who is mentally or psychologically sick due to circumcision , or a woman who is mentally sick for having sex witha circumcised man; I have seen , however many young men and women who are mentally sick due to drug and alcohol addiction!

And does circumcision have health benefits? sure, penile cancer in virtually unknown in circumcized males !!

So I believe that there are more important issues to be attacked rather that circumcision.

I am with allowing circumcision to be done under medical care, and with punishing the parents if they do it outside the medical institution!

@motti

I'm reposting my previous comment, that for some reason was truncated:

"There are too many medical reports how male circumcision has benefited males"

Damn right, far too many.

http://sites.google.com/site/completebaby/medicalization

A few chosen bits:

- 1871 M.J. Moses declares that Jews are immune to masturbation because of circumcision.

- 1879 H.H. Kane 'discovers' that circumcision cures nocturnal emissions and abdominal neuralgia.

-1914 Abraham L. Wolbarst claims that circumcision prevents tuberculosis and demands the compulsory circumcision of all children in America

- 1935 R.W. Cockshut demands that all boys be circumcised in order to desensitize the penis and promote chastity.

- 1949 Eugene H. Hand declares that circumcision prevents venereal disease and cancer of the tongue.

Do you think it's my "freedom of choice" to remove my daughter's clitoral hood? If not, is clitoral hood more important than male prepuce? (I really want you to answer that)

There is no "distinct atrtack on Jewish circumcision", nobody cares if jewish muslim or american.

WHO also said avian flu and mad cow were going to decimate humanity, and it only supports circumcision in some African countries.

"Circumcision is a tool used against the spread of Aids and HIV. Is that such a bad thing?"

Yes, because even if it was as effective as the trials suggest ( more than unlikely ), it would still be revoltingly cost-uneffective. According to a cost-effectiveness study, circumcising 1 man in Africa costs as much as giving him a condom supply for 20-30 years of use ( and he will need those, regardless). It's really only about Americans/Israeli begin happy to "proove" circumcision is more than just a stupid bronze age ritual. Why do you think it has been touted to cure everything from tuberculosis to epliepsy?

"Certain countries have banned or want to ban circumcision and kashrut, simply because of the /Jewish nature."

I don't give a f-ck about jews, nobody here does. I care about useless surgery being done to babies.

"Have a look and see how many countries do practice it"

For non-religious reasons, the answer is 3. Impressive.

- Philipines (old tradition)

- USA (started mostly as a mean to prevent kids from masturbating, or so they thought ;)

- South Korea (because of American occupation).

In comparison, 4 countries used to practice it and mostly abandonned it in the 20th century : Canada, Australia, New-Zealand and UK.

@nrmmadi

It's proven the risk of penile cancer is only increased for men WITH PHIMOSIS. And even then it's one of the rarest cancer.

@intruder

You are right , but sadly enough you failed to mention that phimosis is a medical condition that occurs ONLY in uncircumcised males, it NEVER happens in circumcised males!

So again, circumcision does protect males from penile cancer, rare or common, like I mentioned earlier.

Thank you.

Penile cancer can occur in the circumcision scar (Bissada NK, Morcos RR, el-Senoussi M, Fetsch JF, Davis Jr CJ, Miettinen M, Sesterhenn IA). Circumcised men can and do get penile cancer.

@nrmmadi

http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/blalock1/

"Outpatient Management of Phimosis Following Newborn Circumcision" ... The title says it all, circumcision can be a CAUSE of phimosis...

Regardless, phimosis can always be treated with circumcision, if other treatments have failed, so what's the point of applying the most extreme possible treatment BEFORE the condition even occurs...? Circumcision can lead to burried penis, skin bridges, meatal stenosis, excess skin removal ( leading to painful erection etc...).

"I think many commentators have lost direction here and they are against circumcision per se just because it represents a certain group of people ! "

I think "a certain group of people" thinks the world revolves around them. It takes that to think someone opposes useless surgical body-modification done to a baby (illegal in any other situation) just because THEY do it. Damn that's annoying.

@Intruder. I am against female circumcision, as it is only to stop the female enjoying sex. This is not something Jewish people practice in any way at all.

It is unimportant how many countries practice circumsion or not. Like you, I don't give a F**k what others do, if a practice is considered good for the health or has certain considered benefits. But I don't have to accept that because someone else disagrees with another persons right to do something that it has to be banned.

Will you stop a child having their appendix removed? What decisions do you make regarding your own daughter? Personally, I would have far greater concern about children ensuring their protection from paedophilics. Now that is a real concern surely?

Regarding your comments immediately above. We, as Jews certainly don't believe that the world revolves us and that would be a stupid ignorant remark to make, if that is who your accusation is aimed against. I suppose once again, that it all depends on what you want to believe, or not. The medical evidence or opinion I have read has been both for and against.

Personally, my own sexual activity was never harmed and I never had any complaintsfrom any female partner that I hasd over the years before I married. Certainly, my wife has never complained neither. Many young females who had never seen a circumcised penis have looked at it in awe and thought it was far nicer looking than an uncircumcised model. Now I do hope that it is not jealousy that is at the basis of your complaint.... I joke, don't worry. seriously, I am sure those women who have only been used to circumcised males must look at the uncut version with some other thought, who knows?

It's interesting that it's the same people who believe that God created us in His image who also thinks that he screwed it up with the foreskin...

@motti

"I am against female circumcision, as it is only to stop the female enjoying sex"

Removing "only" clitoral hood and inner labias doesn't. As I think I mentioned before, adult women have it done as plastic surgery. What about that, should parents be allowed to trim their daughter's labias & hood?

"Have a look and see how many countries do practice it"

"It is unimportant how many countries practice circumsion or not. Like you, I don't give a F**k what others do"

Admit it, you thought many countries did it for "health" reason didn't you?

"Will you stop a child having their appendix removed?"

If there is no problem with it, absolutely. Useless surgery is not a joke.

"What decisions do you make regarding your own daughter"

Curiously, if I make the "decision" to remove some "useless flaps of skin" from her genitals, I'll be jailed. Female prepuce is no more important than male prepuce, quite possibly less ; male prepuce is at the very least useful for masturbating.

According to their girlfriends all men have the nicest penis on earth ^^

Actually, Jewish law does require female circumcision in some cases. In the cases of intersex people (known "tumtum" in Hebrew), women with congenital adrenal hyperplasia or de la Chapelle syndrome, would be required to be circumcised and raised as a male. So, yes, Judaism does indeed practice female genital mutilation.

@ Murusaki Sunshine; You are totally mistakenin stating that Jewish law does require female circumcision in some cases. I wonder why you feel the need to add something quite untruthfuul. In fact Jewish law does not demand this, in fact it is totally againstJewish religious practise.

The only section in which it has been claimed that Jewish females were circumcised is that of some Ethiopan Jews, who since arrival in Israel, gave this practice up. nobody knows for sure why some sections of this community adopted this practise.

The only reason for this circumcision otherwise would be for medical purposes and not for any other. So nice try, but not exactly ethical were you.

@Motti, I'm not lying at all. Intersex people are at increased risk of genital mutilation no matter what culture they live in. The tumtum is required to be circumcised and raised as a male. If you bothered reading rabbinical law, you'd know this.

In Sweden you are not allowed to "dock" your dog's ears and tail. Of course kids should enjoy the same protection as dogs!

There are no medical and hygienic benefits to circumcision, those who claim that there are are completely religiously motivated to make up lies.

motti: I feel sorry for you with your brainwashed views of the world. Wake up!

@Imperor, I agree. I think it's sick that a dog has more rights than a human child. That really puts it in perspective about how much religion can influence the world to do outlandishly crazy things.

Of course circumcision of ALL children should be illegal worldwide. It's unnecessary, debilitating and heinous. In 100 years, no one will ever believe that is used to happen.

... male circumcision is associated with a 61-per-cent increase in HIV transmission ...

http://www.monitor.co.ug/News/National/-/688334/1360190/-/axfghjz/-/index.html

@Murasaki Sunshine.. like I wrote earlier and I stand by it. Female circumcision is not acceptable in Jewish law.

please let me know which section of Jewish law that you refer to that, not only condones but necessitates female circumcision. It certainly is not in the bible, unlike male circumcision. Over to you.

@Motti, here's a link that goes into detail about it: http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/english/journal/cohen-1.htm Tumtum must be circumcision. Some tumtum are female, meaning Judaism does indeed circumcise females (albeit it's a rare scenario). Your religion practices genital mutilation. Accept it and leave barbaric traditions behind. Also, I find it very odd that you present yourself as Jewish but you say "Bible." Most Jews say Tanakh/Torah.

Unfortunately it is / has been circumcision that has MADE for no end of anti-semitic sentiments. Freud found that it was the chief reason for unconscious anti-Semitism. And the myths surrounding it are at the core of the "blood libel." Thus, It's time to eliminate the Brit Milah because if that is the chief reason

for being anti-Semitic or anti-Abrahamic [Islam too practices the rite] then why hang on to this left-over of human sacrifice? that traumatizesthe child, cutting off 5,000 nerves, that is the equivalent of female circumcision in the sense that it eliminates everything but the clitoris,and only serves the UltraOrthodox to maintain their power? After all, reform Judaism sought to eliminate the rite in the 19th century, and Jewish identity depends on being born by a Jewish mother, or converting. Here a link to an archive of the entire German

and then some debate, note especially Michael Wolffsohn's two pieces . Circumcision has been controversial also within Jewry forever.

analytic-comments.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-circumcision-debate-links-and.html

Eine Diskussion ueber das Thema, mit drei Deutschen + einem Amerikanischen Psychologen.

analytic-comments.blogspot.com/2012/08/psychotherapeutenyahoogroupsde.html

http://www.welt.de/print/die_welt/debatte/article108847257/Die-Vorhaut-des-Herzens.html

www.tagesspiegel.de/meinung/andere-meinung/gastkommentar-zur-beschneidungsdebatte-danke-deutschland/7160872.html

www.facebook.com/mike.roloff1?ref=name

www.roloff.freehosting.net/index.html

Member Seattle Psychoanalytic Institute and Society

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