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Sweden rules 'gender-based' abortion legal

TT/The Local · 12 May 2009, 07:27

Published: 12 May 2009 07:27 GMT+02:00

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The Local reported in February that a woman from Eskilstuna in southern Sweden had twice had abortions after finding out the gender of the child.

The woman, who already had two daughters, requested an amniocentesis in order to allay concerns about possible chromosome abnormalities. At the same time, she also asked to know the foetus's gender.

Doctors at Mälaren Hospital expressed concern and asked Sweden’s National Board of Health and Welfare (Socialstyrelsen) to draw up guidelines on how to handle requests in the future in which they "feel pressured to examine the foetus’s gender" without having a medically compelling reason to do so.

The board has now responded that such requests and thus abortions can not be refused and that it is not possible to deny a woman an abortion up to the 18th week of pregnancy, even if the foetus's gender is the basis for the request.

Story continues below…

TT/The Local (news@thelocal.se)

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Your comments about this article

09:55 May 12, 2009 by zeero
This is such a bullplop, how come when a SE woman ask to know the gender of the baby they tell her that they don't do that but when a woman with another ethnic background ask for it, they tell....
10:15 May 12, 2009 by Deema
It sounds disturbing. But i guess if i find my self in their shoes, i will want to have the right to decide for my self too!
12:34 May 12, 2009 by tetsuo_red

Cant you here what you are saying? So you are willing to kill each of your children until they get it "right"?

There was a man with a funny little mustache who said the same thing half a century ago I believe.
12:35 May 12, 2009 by Citrixme
this is completely criminal when u kill a human ,Why? because he cant fight or resist you !!!! and as a "civilized people " since when Swedish not interested to have girls !!!! and kill them before they come !!!!! this is a backward thinking as girl like boy and they shouldn't make it legal !!!! its sound that Sweden feel jelous from Saudi arabia where they used to do this before 1500 years before Islam came !! hope you people will deal with human in good way what ever they are baby girl or baby boy !!!
14:22 May 12, 2009 by Mosby12
I am a pro-life American. I cannot say it any simpler... you people disgust me. Shame on Sweden.. murdering innocents at a whim.

You all stink!
14:34 May 12, 2009 by Kaethar
LOL at comments.

I am for an abortion if a woman chooses to have one. And although this is an odd case I agree with the ruling. You can't possibly monitor who chooses to have abortions and their reasoning behind it.

I equate it to drinking. You can drink in a socially responsible way or you can get pissed and become violent. We don't ban alcohol just because we don't like pissed violent people, just like we don't ban abortion simply because many people dislike abortion based on gender.

It may be immoral but it's not illegal, and rightly so. But I see people here are against all abortions, so there's no reasoning with them... so I guess I'm talking to myself. :)
14:44 May 12, 2009 by 7

roe v. wade?
14:50 May 12, 2009 by Princess P
Thanks. Pleased to meet you too.
14:51 May 12, 2009 by VikingHumpingWitch
Be interesting if an Iraqi responds to that post.
14:53 May 12, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
Are you also like Sarah Palin? I mean, such an irrefutable pro-life chap who deliberately *enjoy* hunting and animal killing? You are unlikely to support capital punishment, aren't you?
14:58 May 12, 2009 by 7
mosby12 replied to the news article rather than as a poster on the forum. probably won't check back so i wouldn't take too much time to address him/her.
15:09 May 12, 2009 by pubknight12
It's kind of ironic that feminism gone crazy (a.k.a. abortion on demand as birth control) is now being used to kill future women. Sex selective abortion is simply evil and only amoral societies can support it. India has outlawed sex selective abortion because they too realized that the practice was simply evil. It takes a seriously depraved person to look at a sonogram (beating heart and all) and say that that fetus is not worthy of life because it does not have a penis. Of course I am assuming that a vast majority of these abortions are female. This makes me incredibly sad that Sweden would allow this practice.
15:14 May 12, 2009 by VikingHumpingWitch
I get the impression that this woman aborted because she already had two girls. If she'd had two boys and a male foetus she'd have aborted it. It's not an anti-girl thing per se.

I'm told that in parts of London they won't tell you the gender and that is because people are more likely to abort girls.
15:22 May 12, 2009 by Maxtel
Well I guess what the court was saying was that if you're going to engage in barbarism, you really can't put limits on it. Go Sweden!
15:27 May 12, 2009 by Greg in Canada
I'm not against abortion. It's also legal in Canada and I feel it's a woman's rights issue, but I must admit to not liking gender based abortions one bit.
15:32 May 12, 2009 by Inletwatcher
Is not 18 weeks, a second term? Does the baby instantly die, or does the Dr. have the grim task of ending this babys life.

15:41 May 12, 2009 by eZee.se
Abort the boys... for heavens sake not the girls, women make the world a beautiful place to live in (yes, there is a downside of explaining sports to them and the nagging...and "overall noise" but the pros (no pun intended) make up for the cons) so I say if you're gonna go down this path... more girls/women please!

What happens when my boy grows up?

no girls he's gonna have to go gay!!! Do YOU want to be responsible for that?

Or how about a compromise...?

Get rid of the uglies (no matter their sex) but leave the good looking ones?

Ugly females are gonna join the feminist camp anyway, and become leaders and lesbians.

Ok, flame away ;)
15:43 May 12, 2009 by VikingHumpingWitch
Oh dear.
15:47 May 12, 2009 by Maxtel
Hey why waste this protein? Why not eat the fetuses or at least feed them to zoo animals? Go Sweden!
15:49 May 12, 2009 by MephistoBlancoTexasCowboy
Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy , what has a cowardly shot at Mrs. Palin and then about hunting have anything to do with the topic at hand? The real question is whether is procedure is legal and nothing more. I personally find the idea barbaric, self-centered and horrific. I can't understand how a person can condone such a thing while claiming to be human and probably christian. I doubt that even the muslim refuse would find anything appealing about it. except that it means one more dead infidel. If I could, I would include a caricature of mohamed. With that said, the question is about it's legality. If it's legal let it go unless it needs to be changed and then go about it however y'all do such things.

If Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy wants to p##s on me for being American it's OK. Come tomorrow I'll still be American and he...won't :D
15:51 May 12, 2009 by VikingHumpingWitch
There must be starving people we could send them to?
15:53 May 12, 2009 by cmh
Why not? The modern roots of abortion come from Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, who created Planned Parenthood to eliminate black people. Her eugenics material were used by Hitler's Germany. If you can start it by killing black babies, why not females? Who knows, your type may be next.

In America, blacks supported Obama, the most pro-abortion president ever, by perhaps 95%. Now about 40% of abortions are perpetrated upon 12% of the population. Every ill in the world is rooted in moral issues.

The feminist movement started this mess and now they are the victims.
15:53 May 12, 2009 by Puffin
Most terminations occur very early in Sweden - as far as I know there is abortion on demand for the first weeks so I'm not really sure that I understand the medical staff's paternalism in this case wanting to 'vet' the woman's reasons.

Over 83% of terminations occur by week 11 according to the statistics for 2008.

Week 4-8....75.9%

Week 9-1....17.4%

Week 12-17...5.8%

Week 18+....0.9%
15:58 May 12, 2009 by Jamtjim

Mephiso, before critisising other people and their views, perhaps you should look a the that piece of rasist scum staring back at you from the mirror. Shame on you.
16:08 May 12, 2009 by RDO
I thought that Sweden was civilized, I guess not. Hilter would be so proud of Sweden now. Unbelievable immorality at the highest level.

Mankind is still animaistic, "Eating their own young" is the rule of law in Sweden. Evil lives in Stockholm.
16:11 May 12, 2009 by Inletwatcher
Thank you Puffin, for the numbers.

16:16 May 12, 2009 by murrchen
Baby has the wrong eye color?


Shame on you merciless, murderous Sweden. You shrug your shoulders and do the bloody work without a moment's guilt or hesitation.

Unbelievable. You are savages masquerading as civilized human beings.
16:20 May 12, 2009 by VikingHumpingWitch
In Sweden you can kill your baby after birth providing you have a good reason (e.g. it cries too much or does smelly poos in its nappies).
16:20 May 12, 2009 by Puffin
Should have perhaps added that a good proportion after 12 weeks come from major abnormailities detected during screening that is offered after 12 weeks
16:21 May 12, 2009 by vladd777
I'm wondering how those who choose death for their offspring will react should they have to face them on the day of judgement.

My grandchild was killed in the womb and I hope we meet in the next phase.
16:22 May 12, 2009 by VikingHumpingWitch
How will you know which one is your grandchild?
16:33 May 12, 2009 by vladd777
Well I believe in God Almighty and with God all things are possible. We will recognise each other 8)
16:33 May 12, 2009 by unkle strunkle
Those numbers are certain to go up if Sweden continues to allow women from Norway to get late term abortions here. Good job to Norway and Denmark for not allowing Gender-based abortion. Its simply not a part of our culture.
16:35 May 12, 2009 by KoreyLoughry
I would dare everyone to watch this...

16:36 May 12, 2009 by TomPennsylvania
The fact that so many people commenting here just don't see the atrocity is amazing and disgusting. This is why the Germans were so successful in their "genetic cleansing" programs, because to so many people, it makes sense to kill those who are weak. It doesn't matter how early in the pregnancy it is, it doesn't matter if it's inconvenient to the mother. Two adults choose to create life, they need to choose to accept the responsibilities that come with it, not just murder the children on a whim.

Here's a question for you Swedes: If this isn't evil, what is? Is there any limit to your depravity?
16:43 May 12, 2009 by KoreyLoughry
Here's another good one...


It seems very straightforward - 1) Is it human? (of course, what else would it be?) 2) Is it alive? (without question) 3) Has it done anything wrong? (of course not)

Therefore, it is an innocent human life. To put to death an innocent human life is the very definition of murder.
16:44 May 12, 2009 by jet2023
The brave new world of gender-based population engineering is alive and well, but Sweden is really not the place to look. Because China permits married couples only one child and because Chinese parents much prefer sons to daughters, there have been an estimated 75 million female infanticides in China since the policy was instituted. Notice the silence from pro-abortion feminists. But most worrisome is the demographic time bomb awaiting a maturing generation of Chinese males who will greatly outnumber the available females.
16:46 May 12, 2009 by Puffin
If you don't understand the difference between infanticide and early abortion prior to 9 weeks then you have a big problem
16:46 May 12, 2009 by Stewie Griffin
I don't know about Sweden, but in the UK abortion can be performed if

"the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family;"

It's not too hard to argue that for some families in certain cultures having a child of the "wrong" gender could have a detrimental effect on the woman's mental health (irrespective of whether the woman herself holds the same beliefs or not).

But is it any worse (morally) than having an abortion because a child has (or is likely to have) mental or physical disabilities? An abortion is an abortion at the end of the day. The law already says it is OK in some situations (although a lot of people argue they are not justifiable). Which makes it incredibly hypocritical to say it is not in others.

So in a way I guess I can understand the reasoning behind this decision. Although morally I think I still disagree with it. I wish they would assess it on a case by case basis rather than having a blank statement.

What's the view of Swedes on abortion in general and this type of situation in particular? And does anyone know what are the legal reasons for abortion in Sweden?
16:52 May 12, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
It has everything to do with it, in fact it has everything to do with bigotry, because the typical argument backed up by so many people regardless of nationality who self-proclaim themselves at being pro-life are in many cases full of contradictions(not all of them of course).

Anyway, I made a direct question - do you believe that someone who is pro-life could support capital punishment?
16:52 May 12, 2009 by Puffin
In Sweden terminations are provided without reason until week 18 - in reality week 16/17 - most clinics as in the UK err on the side of caution as dating scans can be a week-10 days out - there can also be terminations after week 18 if the mother's like is in danger or the baby has a catastrophic birth defect - this requires approval of Socialstyrelsen

The vast majority of terminations after 12 weeks are because of abonormality

83.3% are carried out by week 11
16:54 May 12, 2009 by Stewie Griffin
I'm curious: Are you also against abortion for pregnancies when choice (or being an adult) is not a part of the process (I'm thinking of rape and incest)?

Is abortion also evil in these situations?

If not, why not? Are some pregnancies more important than others? Who decides? And how?
16:55 May 12, 2009 by ******mark
Technically speaking, there is no difference between the holocaust and the millions slaughtered by abortion. Both victims are unwanted humans targeted by those who unconsciously kill them. You can argue about all of the nuanced defenses of abortion but the true spirit of abortion is described by our unabashed killing of late term humans and even infanticide (allowing abortion survivors to die on the table like an animal). If you need proof, then have the guts to watch video of an baby, in the midst of abortion, wrangling in pain in defense from the instruments that are taking its life. In addition, for those of us who are against abortion, just remember that more atrocities have occurred not because of what a few bad people have done but what many good people have not done. Our society is a comfort saturated one that is on the decline. It is only our technological advances that make us “feel’ more advanced, but we have not evolved ethically—not one bit.

mark.three@ comcast.net
16:58 May 12, 2009 by johncchalker

Let me make sure that I understand you.

Do you really equate the killing of animals for meat and/or other products with the aborting of a human fetus? Do you actually believe that a person who is against the taking of the innocent life of an unborn child, must also be against the death penalty for a tried and found guilty murderer or he is a hypocrite?

And people from your side of the issue look at us (pro life people) as absolutists. Human life is sacred. Because of this, we sometimes must take the life of someone else who takes the life of others so that they will not do it again and so that others contemplating this course will hopefully be dissuaded. Unfortunately, it is used so little and even with prejudice at times, and so it has not proven to be a very good deterrent.

But, I do understand that this ruling is consistent with the laws on abortion, and if anyone who is pro-choice has a problem with it, then they are being a hypocrite.
16:59 May 12, 2009 by Stewie Griffin
What were those Doctors trying to prove then? Are they pro-life and trying to make a point through the media or something?
17:02 May 12, 2009 by TomPennsylvania
Stewie, you ignored my question. If it isn't evil to murder your child because you already have enough girls, then what is evil?

See, this is how evil propagates. Shut down dissenters (calling for the editor to quash comments), focus on side issues (incest and rape aren't the topic; aborting based on gender choice is the topic), and ignore what you know to be true: This is wrong.
17:04 May 12, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
All this fuss about Oh-my-God-how-Swedes-are-so-barbaric they're going to kill solely little girls! This is a draconian law change...They're all a bunch of disgusting new Nazis.

Yet, I wonder if those who disagree with it think it's OK to decide termination upon the fact that the fetus eventually had a physical disability - that is - let's hypothetically imagine the fetus was diagnosed with Down Syndrome.

Is the life of a disabled person(provided that it was the reason for the abortion) less important than the life of someone else not having the same disability, thus fairly accepted as a decision criteria rather than gender which means something horrible and much worse?
17:08 May 12, 2009 by Puffin
Yes - or possibly racially motivated
17:09 May 12, 2009 by Stewie Griffin
You could argue the whole topic is a side issue. Abortion in this country is lawful and you don't need a reason for it.

Your question is more along the lines of whether the law (as it stands) is wrong. That's a different question to the OP/news article.

Also (just as in real life) conversation moves on.

I think I've answered your question on my first post but you haven't answered mine.
17:11 May 12, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
Well, You did understand my point about animal killing. I meant the killing of animals only for the pleasure of seeing them dying and self-satisfing my huge ego.

How can you always make sure that everybody subjected to capital punishment is 100% guilty? In addition, what makes you believe that if this person won't be stopped he/she is going to keep killing other people! Is it an attempt at being God yourself?
17:12 May 12, 2009 by Puffin
What are you talking about? Are you trying to bring in partial birth abortion? - this is not used in Sweden -

what do you mean by 'late term'? - few abortions in Sweden are 'late term' - abortion is illegal where the baby has a chance of independent life

Most are medical abortions - with no surgery involved
17:12 May 12, 2009 by Snowzee

Even at around 8 weeks the fetus shows signs of feeling pain. They say that abortion is ok up to 18 weeks! How many of you who are ok with this new ruling have SEEN an abortion at 18 weeks?? And then to do this just because it is not the gender that you wanted it to be?? I find that often when it comes to abortion people tend to be accepting of it but refuse to see how it works. The human fetus is far more intricate than many people think. I understand that in cases of rape/incest there should possibly be exceptions, but you need to catch the pregnancy really early on in those cases. As far as this story is concerned, if you are *trying* go get pregnant and decide to kill your child because it is a girl or because it is a boy you are SICK.
17:14 May 12, 2009 by Stewie Griffin
You've put that a lot better than what I attempted to!

Those were my first thoughts too, but I was mindful of not taking it too far. It seems, it wasn't that far fetched...
17:15 May 12, 2009 by Deema
@ tetsuo_red. I said: decide for my self, not choose to kill my kids.. maybe you should re-read and re-consider what you type, especially if you direct it to someone!
17:18 May 12, 2009 by Mmamma
to the very first nut job who posted 'mr/ms zeroo' in my experience my swedish friends were told the sex of thier babies and i was not, even though i shamelessly begged . I was told it is the law in sweden not to tell the sex of the child, so I wonder were you got the 'ethnic women are told the sex of thier babies' from.

When I was about 10 weeks pregnant i had to see a gynacologist. He asked no less than 5 times during our 20minute visit if I was sure i wanted to have the baby and didnt want an abortion. Almost made me want to reconsider having my first born. I dont know if thats the norm, a woman tells you she is happy to be pregnant and you keep asking if she is sure or would prefer an abortion . I was a bit annoyed to be honest .

With regards to abortion, despite the overwehlming love for life on this forum, i thinks its not a big deal in sweden. Have an abortion and go about your business, its like getting a tooth filling.
17:18 May 12, 2009 by TomPennsylvania
Stewie, sorry, your comment was truncated, so I don't know if you answered it. I honestly don't know if it's right or wrong to include rape and incest victims. I don't. And you're right, I don't think it should be allowed on demand, but that personal opinion isn't germane to the point: Choosing abortion for gender is wrong. Why does it matter what I think about other things?
17:22 May 12, 2009 by TomPennsylvania
As far as what Paulo was talking about, culling the physically disabled was how Hitler got started. As for myself, I have adopted 5 special needs / severely handicapped children, so obviously I believe all human life is valuable. Instead of just trying to shove my point of view down the throats of others, I try to live what I believe.
17:22 May 12, 2009 by david4021
So if you are ok murdering babies how could you possibly have a problem murdering one because of gender?

Does killing an innocent child somehow only become wrong if you evaluate gender first?

Does consideration of gender somehow instill a new found moral center to those lacking one?

Baby killing is always wrong.
17:30 May 12, 2009 by Plowbridge H. Broad
Wow, there are so many God playing righteous losers here I don't know who to pick on first.

So I won't but need to make my point that abortion is the right of the individual and has many sound reasons for being carried out. Gender choice should not be one of them though.
17:31 May 12, 2009 by TomPennsylvania
Ok, figured out the forum, and got to read your post, Stewie. I agree with you on both counts. I think it's hypocritial to allow some children to be killed but object to others. But there is a range of depravity available to mankind. We can cut someone off in traffic and we can also murder someone who has cut us off in traffic. Both acts are morally wrong. But the latter is more depraved than the former.

Legally, I can see why the decision was made. But I also see the absolute logic and sense behind what became Germany's mass murder during the 30's and 40's. Ever read the propaganda posters they made in the beginning of it? One I've seen: Why spend so much public money supporting a handicapped person who will never contribute to society? My answer to the poster is the illogical: Because it's right to do so. To deny this leads you down a path which ends in horror.
17:37 May 12, 2009 by Cassandra15
Although I am against abortions, I find it only fitting that, if mothers are going to abort their babies, they abort female babies. Pro-abortion women cannot object to this, since their argument is that the fetus is simply a lump of flesh and that women can do whatever they want with their bodies. Yes, those female "lumps of flesh" are simply worthless inconveniences. Abort them.

(I suspect that many pro-abortion women change their tune when confronted with this argument.)
17:40 May 12, 2009 by eZee.se
Sooo many comments, I'm surprised nobody has said this... so I will:

Ohh! Think of the children!
17:41 May 12, 2009 by Stewie Griffin
Like I said I was curious. A great deal of people who are pro-life when it comes to emotional/social reasons see things differently when it comes to rape/incest and in some cases severe physical disability. I find this is difficult to understand. It comes across as some babies/pregnancies/foetuses are more deserving of life than others. In which case being against abortion on the basis of gender seems hypocritical.

I think the title of this topic (and the article) is misleading. This is not a new rule, a new law or anything like that. In fact they are just stating the obvious. If abortion without a reason is legal up to 18 weeks, it seems a bit futile to focus on the gender issue only. You don't need a reason at all to have an abortion!

Clearly, assessing cases individually does not appear to be an option either. This case has shown that medical staff cannot be trusted to be impartial or leave their own moral/religious/ beliefs out of the workplace.
17:45 May 12, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
When does human life start? Are you trying to equate the genocide commited by Nazis with an abortion of a fetus which cannot even be independent and conscious about what's going on? I think your statement it's grossly exaggerated.

How many people died in the war in Iraq? Can I be pro-life and support any war whatsoever?
17:47 May 12, 2009 by Common Sense
Whatever happened to the Father's right? Last I knew, it still took a Man and a Woman to create a living being. I am sick of hearing that this is all a Woman's right to abort. Abortion is utterly sickening and is plain out MURDER! You people who favor such things are no better then the Nazis who killed the Jews at Auschwitz.. Tell me, did you want to be aborted? Are you thankful for your life? As you sit there and indulge in wickedness and the evil things of this world. How about ending YOUR SICK DISGUSTING EXCUSE OF A LIFE BEFORE YOU END AN CLEAN PURE INNOCENT CHILD! Is this how you value a life? You are nothing more than animals and are no better then the beasts of the field! Arrogant and self loving beings who only think of themselves! If you don't value the life of an innocent being in your womb, then why should I value yours?
17:48 May 12, 2009 by Querist
Question: Don't ALL evolving embryos begin as females?

17:55 May 12, 2009 by Want a baby
I have been trying to have a child for 3 years. The doctors have no explanation after 11 IVF cycles. If you don't want your baby, I do! To kill a child because of it's gender is selfish to say the least. On second thought, I wouldn't want a child who carries the genes of such a despicable person.... Shame on you.
17:58 May 12, 2009 by Karenina37
So, let's see, you can't find out the sex of a baby until about 17 weeks. Therefore the statistics quoted upthread are going to look quite different in a year or two.

I am pro-choice. In that I mean, if you choose to have sex, you better be prepared to be a parent. Even if you use contraception. If you make the choice and become pregnant, IT IS NO LONGER YOUR BODY! It's NOT your choice!

With technology advancing the way it has, we see now that a baby will start to develop their central nervous system around 6 to 8 weeks. If these women are having abortions at 18+ weeks, those babies WILL feel it! How f***ing barbaric! Soon enough abortion is going to be looked at as The Holocaust and every woman whose had an abortion for the sake of convenience should be ASHAMED!

Hope you have a lot of gays too. With no more girls, that's about your only choice, dudes!
18:00 May 12, 2009 by Stewie Griffin
x-posted Tom.

My question (not to anyone in particular) is who gets to decide where the line should be drawn and what are they basing their decisions on?

Should one person's beliefs be used to make decisions about someone else's choices? Should individuals be able to decide how to live their lives? Does the foetus have a choice? Can it choose? How do you know what it would chose?

I don't think it's morally right to force a victim of rape/incest have a child that is a daily reminder of the crimes they suffered. It's not fair on the mother or the child. But how can I (or anyone else) assess or know the effect an unwanted child is going to have on their mother or the child itself. If some have a choice, why don't others?

I know what I would do, but does that mean that everyone else has to do the same?

And is giving people a choice the same as turning a blind eye? The same as the beginnings of eugenics policies and so on?

Jeez, I honestly don't know but it seems this law is the least of 2 "evils"...
18:03 May 12, 2009 by Common Sense
To EDUCATE all of you. These truths are self evident. All men are created EQUAL. All of us started the same way, conceived and born into this world. Lets stop asking the question of when LIFE begins, but rather where did YOUR life begin? If you value your life, then ought it not be said that you value the life of another, regardless if that life is still in the womb? Yet, you say it is 'Your RIGHT' to end an innocent life, although you detest murdering thugs to take the life of beings who were raped, robbed, molested, etc... So how are you any better? Yet you rationalize and justify your actions as pure because you say, 'Well life doesn't begin until..', or 'it cannot live on it's own..'. So, why is it not proper to end the life after birth? Is not that child dependent on the parent outside of the womb as it is on the inside? Those who participate in such acts are sadistic animals. Like I said before, if you don't value a life at any stage, why should I value yours?
18:04 May 12, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
and isn't it selfish to want to have a child made of your own genes when there's so many children out there who is *URGING* to be adopted?
18:08 May 12, 2009 by nlidukdese
Oh my. This almost makes me long back to the Israel-Palestine discussions.

Some people believe in popular myths, aka religion. Some people derive a "pro-life" conviction from their beliefs. All fine. Just don't expect others to be convinced by a morality based on myths.

As it happens, Sweden allows abortion, under certain circumstances. Sweden also separates church and state. And Sweden is not America, nor is it Nazi-Germany.

The news item that led to this discussion was about gender-based abortion. My personal opinion? I find it immoral. But given existing laws in Sweden it is probably not illegal. I would rather live in a country that applies its laws consistently, than in one where fundamentalists feel inclined to tell me what to think and do.

The news item was not about abortion in general. So most comments here are off-topic. I hope Editor Bob or the clean-up fairy will delete them quickly. I also hope that the fundamentalists who posted here will go back to their woodwork and consider their religion a private matter.

If not, then I guees we need to start exchanging cheesecake recipes again.
18:08 May 12, 2009 by Stewie Griffin
I wonder how many of these murderers were wanted pregnancies and how many felt valued and wanted as children.

I also wonder if human life is sacred, what is wrong with life imprisonment without parole.
18:09 May 12, 2009 by Common Sense
Stewie Griffin, we are not talking about rape victims. We are talking about people willfully getting pregnant.
18:10 May 12, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
And is this supposed to be a problem for society?
18:10 May 12, 2009 by dez9925
On paragraph 17 of Humanae Vitae, promulgated on 25 Jul, 1968, a

little more than 30 days after the Jun 7, 1965 creation of a 'new constitutional right, the right to privacy in marital relations', by the U.S. Supreme Court in Griswold v. Connecticut --- H.H. Paul VI foresaw the links between Griswold v. Connecticut and Roe v. Wade, decided on Jan 22, 1973; as well as the link between the former and Lawrence v. Texas (Jun 26, 2003).

As you read those decisions, -- and this one by the 'Swedish health authorities' (what will the Swedish courts say?) -- one can clearly see a pattern. This pattern is called 'Slippery Slope'.

Arguably, what the 'Swedish health authorities' did is well in line with the example set by the SCOTUS. This all reminds me of the Moses' plea, on behalf of the Hebrews, in the story of Exodus. Sad.
18:12 May 12, 2009 by Puffin
First I would say that I am very sympathetic to your plight having have my own infertility situation - however I don't think that I would go as far as to say that my own selfish desires to have a child should force another woman to go through a pregancy - potentially risking her own life in the process

You reasoning sounds very unbalanced - first you say they you want to adopt - then that you would reject a child that carried the genes of the child of someone who had gone though an abortion - doesn't sound like unconditional motherly love!
18:15 May 12, 2009 by Common Sense
nlidukdese, "As it happens, Sweden allows abortion, under certain circumstances. Sweden also separates church and state. And Sweden is not America, nor is it Nazi-Germany.", your pathetic. It doesn't matter if this is Sweden or America. Doesn't matter if it is religious or not. Conception and Birth are UNIVERSAL regardless of NATION OR RELIGION! Do you value your life? Do you value your life so much that your willing to murder innocent beings? So is it ok for anyone to end your life and any time then? Think of the absurdity to sit here and say that abortion is fine. When any nation has no regard for life at any stage, then no one is safe.
18:15 May 12, 2009 by Puffin
This would seem unlikely
18:20 May 12, 2009 by Miss Kitten
Come on, people! We need those babies to be born. Well, at least the male babies. Who else is going to go off and fight in the various wars on this planet? We should let them be born and then send them off to die eighteen years later. Postpone their deaths by a few years.

After all, that's what the creator would want.
18:21 May 12, 2009 by Stewie Griffin
If you give birth at anything up to 23 weeks you can take that child to the best medical facilities available and it will not survive. The same cannot be said from then on. So no, it's not the same.

Oh sorry, I didn't realise...
18:22 May 12, 2009 by nlidukdese
I don't believe in absolutism. Not even human life has an indefinite universal value that eclipses all other values.

But somehow I think this is not the time and place for a philosophical discussion.

Perhaps one day your absolutist convictions can also help you to explain the US air raids in Afghanistan that killed some 100 innocent civilians last week.
18:25 May 12, 2009 by Puffin
Can you be pro-life and beleive in war? - a contradiction surely
18:25 May 12, 2009 by crsinc
does anybody ever stop to think about the consequences of being that "unwanted" child as opposed to being a wanted child? It seems to me it would make a little sense to deny women the right to have an abortion if the one denying it wanted and agreed to accept and raise that child. However, forcing someone to have a child they don't want and forcing that child to grow up in a home where they are not wanted is not doing the child or the mother any favor.
18:26 May 12, 2009 by Common Sense
Puffin, I am not sure if you are responding to my post. But any nation without CIVILIZATION cannot endure. Look in your history books. Look at the ruins of former nations that existed on this planet. Once they devalued life, liberty and property, they collapsed, which is where we are headed. This world is dying because increasingly, more and more people are becoming indulgent in themselves and have no regard to anyones life, liberty and property.
18:27 May 12, 2009 by Roger O. Thornhill
[Anyway, I made a direct question - do you believe that someone who is pro-life could support capital punishment?[/quote]The difference might be one person is innocent while the other is not.

Flip the question; Can you believe in abortion and not believe in capital punishment?

(attached image not shown)
18:27 May 12, 2009 by MICKEY0601
If you abort a baby, you are nothing morre than a selfish baby killer. You place your feelings above the life of a child. If you do not want the child, then give it up or adoption. I am sure that if you have no problem killing someone, that you also wouldn't have a problem letting a loving family have that child to love.
18:28 May 12, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
Indeed. Isn't it ironic how these people claim authority to define when life starts? I am fully unaware about any case of a 12-week fetus(embryo) ever born from any scientific source. Comparing it to well developed general 9-month baby as being as much dependent of the mother as the embryo is ridiculous and plain ignorance.

I wish pro-life people would have more compassion and benevolence towards all our brothers and sisters. At the end of the day, aren't we all made EQUAL?
18:29 May 12, 2009 by Puffin
Why should the woman be forced to risk her life?
18:30 May 12, 2009 by Common Sense
Puffin, Those who star war, usually seek to take innocent life and take the spoils. So tell me, am I to just sit there and let a sick murderous thugs seek to have his way with my life, my wife, my children, my liberty and my property? I have the right to DEFEND my life, my children, my liberty and my property from such disgusting men.
18:31 May 12, 2009 by Roger O. Thornhill
Today is the day. Taliban killed the civilians and reported that the Americans did it for propaganda reasons.

There are many of who really want to believe the Americans did it, and that includes Obama and Hillary Clinton who immediately accepted the charge before the investigation was completed.
18:32 May 12, 2009 by Puffin
Well nature also devalues life since approx a third of pregancies abort themselve through spontaneous miscarriage before week 12.

Can you beleive in liberty and force someone to risk their life in childbirth
18:32 May 12, 2009 by Common Sense
Puffin, this is discussing a woman who willfully got pregnant and willfully wants to end it. If the woman's life is at risk, then she and her spouse need to decide.
18:35 May 12, 2009 by American_Swede
If this is what the gov't of Sweden believes then this is just one more step in the grave for what I used to think was a beautiful country. Life is not our choice, but it is our's to choose how to live. Focus on the good things and greet this day with love it your heart. If you don't fear what's coming then I suggest you read the first few chapters in the book of Romans, which was written around 1952 years ago. Can you find any similarities with today's culture??? Sweden get your ACT together!
18:36 May 12, 2009 by Puffin
But what do you mean by willful??? - according to my dictionary wilful means intentional/deliberate - but obviously this is not the case if they did not mean to create a child or it was an accident/contraception failure.

A woman's life is always more at risk by going ahead with childbirth rather than having an early termination
18:37 May 12, 2009 by MICKEY0601
puffin, what percentage of women's health is at risk. less that 1%? You are trying to use the most extreme case to make a point. what are you, a politician. These women are killing there babies out of convenience, and nothing more. If there is a real danger of physical harm to the mother, then I would let her make the decision. Other than that, have the child and then give it away.
18:39 May 12, 2009 by Puffin
This is hardly a new thing - this has been the law in Sweden since 1975
18:40 May 12, 2009 by ericdb
This is the enevitable first step towards designer babies.

We should also consider the biologial ramifications of this issue. Lets say in ten years the male to female ratio drops to 60:40, or vice versa, and the natural evolutionary balance of primates is skewed. I could write a list of possibilities, but you can draw your own conclusions.

I personally believe that with the emerging sonogram technology, and that we can now see babies laughing and showing emotion in the second trimester, that it is only amount of time before abortions become more tightly regulated. How about a biological borderline? No abortions after the development of the nervous system (approximately 12 weeks), unless their are mitigating circumstances (such as a young girl that was raped and didn't want tot tell her pareents, etc.).
18:40 May 12, 2009 by MICKEY0601
listen to puffin the lawyer. This is not a legal argument. You are just making excuses trying to validate your opinion. The fact is most abortions are done because the women don't want to be bothered with a baby. Everyone with half a brain will tell you that you are killing a baby. That makes it murder.
18:41 May 12, 2009 by ericdb
We need to abandon these polarized viewpoints that have no real meaning (like life begins at conception, or I have the right to kill until it breaths air). These beliefs are not founded on anything and need to be revised.
18:41 May 12, 2009 by Puffin
I nearly died in both my deliveries - and spent the first 24 hours in intensive care - it's much more common than you think

This was obviously my choice as my children were very much wanted - however I don't beleve in forcing people to take these risks
18:42 May 12, 2009 by MICKEY0601
I adopted my daughter from China because the people over there are aborting baby girls or leaving them in public places to be taken to orphanages. Is this the way that you people want your country to be.
18:44 May 12, 2009 by Jamtjim
Actually Common Sense, I believe (and i'm sure someone will tell me if i'm wrong) that we all start off with two X chromosones thus making us, at least initially, female. It is only later in the early stages on foetal development that males develop a Y chromosone. Therefore it would be more acurate to say "all women are created equal"...
18:50 May 12, 2009 by Puffin
Well it hasn't happened in the past 34 years of the same Abortion Act - why do you think it would happen now?
19:03 May 12, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
Sweden is not a patriarchal society, in fact it enjoys one of the most equal societies in the world in terms of women equality. Is this law going to change a culture where women DO have an important role?
19:08 May 12, 2009 by ericdb
Actually, Jamtjim, that is incorrect. A woman's ovaries has an X chromosome (one of the two after meiosis). The sperm from the male carries either an X, or a y chromosome (again separated at meiosis). If a sperm with an X chormosome gets there, poof, a girl. Vice Versa.
19:12 May 12, 2009 by Jamtjim
Thanks ericdb. I stand corrected.

Do you know of a good / repuable website where I can go to try to fill this rather obvious gap in my knowledge? I would appreciate it...
19:14 May 12, 2009 by TomPennsylvania
True, good point. But I think people tend to get distracted by the individual making a point rather than the point itself. Just like all these distractions about war and capital punishment. Here's my argument. Is "it" alive? Of course. Is it human? What else could it be? Is human life worth preserving in some instances and not in others?

About the argument, basically, how could it be up to us to decide if it's wrong? Well, it's up to us, as voters, as members of society, to decide what is illegal and what isn't. We've chosen to make murder illegal. Ditto for stealing, assault - many things which involve harm to another. We don't ask the murderer if he thinks it's ok to murder people; it's not for him to decide. Society made it illegal; the murderer's personal beliefs are not germane; society will punish him despite his beliefs. Likewise the woman who wishes to kill the child she helped create. It's up to society to decide if that is allowable. That's the value of this discussion.

I think human life starts very early, at the latest when the zygote cells have specialized into various tissues - no one still has any idea how that happens. But even at fertilization, it's alive, and it's human.

The crime I (and others) see with abortion on demand is that it's society-sponsered and allowed ending of human lives, which is what happened in Germany. Then, as now, millions of people allowed it to happen. To be honest, just as you don't know how you can be "pro-war" and "pro-life", I don't see how you can be "pro-choice" and against the Nazi Action T4 program, which directly led to the Holocaust. Sure, it's not the same specifically, and you can make arguments as to how deep the wrongness is for each, but both are still wrong.

And that's what is betrayed by your changing of the subject to war and everything else. If you knew it was really fine to kill a series of babies until you get the right gender, you would make a cogent argument explaining why. But instead you start talking about the Iraq war. Your own actions show that you know what's right and wrong, but it's too inconvenient for you to think about the consequences of your beliefs.
19:19 May 12, 2009 by Kate99
What they should really do is take her second born and kill it. If we are killing for gender would someone be so willing to kill a child they've had for years? No! Well killing a fetus is the same, just the poor thing hasn't had the same chance to be born and grow! Abortion is murder, at any stage. If you disagree, you are an idiot. Maybe we should select you for elimination as well.
19:21 May 12, 2009 by Jasoncarter
So who's put a link to this story on some nutty American pro life site? Can we go there and start flaming them about their pathetic and appalling maternity leave rules?
19:27 May 12, 2009 by Inletwatcher
Wow look at all the new posters.
19:39 May 12, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
Starting by Christian fundamentalists?
19:49 May 12, 2009 by Braderunner Rennuredarb
Speaking of idiots.

Anyone who would choose the life of their unborn child over the life of their wife is an idiot.

And regarding the Drudge clickers...not everyone that reads Drudge is a pro-life, right-wing nutjob. I just wish some of them would shut up though - because some can't articlate an arguement for sh!t. Reminds me of that scene from The Abyss when the grouchy lady (cant remember her name) tells the crazy guy to "Hey - stay off my side!"
19:50 May 12, 2009 by Jamtjim
It always puzzles me how "Pro-Life" people are so quick to advocate the deaths of other people who dont agree with them...
20:47 May 12, 2009 by What's the story morning glo
Haha we all love you too

I personally don't know why people argue about abortion, I mean, it's up to the person getting it done, right? No matter what you think, it's ultimatly their desicion, and it's them that's got to live with it for the rest of their life, not you.

It's all fair and good to express your opinion to the person, or reccomend things, but (especially when it's someone you don't actually know) I don't think it's right to condemn them for what they've done.

Yes, in your mind it might be killing another life, but surely it is better to kill/terminate that life then raise it in a home that doesn't want it, or to give birth to it and put it up for adoption adding to the already overcrowded statistics of children with no homes to go to?

Surely it's better to go against what people think you should do rather than do something that could put a strain on your life in many different ways?

I'm only 15, and so obviously never had an abortion or been in that situation, but I honestly think, with my head as far out of my arse as it could get, that my thinking is probably more mature and practical than some of the posts being said on this thread here today, which is kind of scary, considering.
20:56 May 12, 2009 by What's the story morning glo
Or all men are she-males?

21:22 May 12, 2009 by TomPennsylvania
I don't think it's better to kill a life than to raise it in a home that doesn't want it. There are lots of folks who were raised horribly, my father for example, who as adults are able to overcome their upbringing and build a meaningful life. In fact, their success is even more meaningful because of what they overcame.

Yes, it is a strain on your life to have a child you were not expecting. To simply kill a person because it's stressful for the person to be breathing is, as I said, pretty much the pinnacle of evil. Please tell me you have a better reason than it's stressful.

I agree that at least you're thinking better than some of the other posters, including the folks who agree with me. Please think about what you're saying, though, to the conclusion - where are the lines between abortion and infanticide, between infanticide and euthanasia, between euthanasia and murder. I think once you begin to devalue human life, it is a small task to expand that to include anyone whose life is inconvenient to others.
21:28 May 12, 2009 by MICKEY0601
===I personally don't know why people argue about abortion, I mean, it's up to the person getting it done, right? No matter what you think, it's ultimatly their desicion, and it's them that's got to live with it for the rest of their life, not you===

This argument loses all merit when you consider abortion the taking of an innocent life. That makes it murder and it is everyone's moral responsibility to stop innocent peoople from being killed.
21:41 May 12, 2009 by Spud Lite
Nobody sees this as the thin end of the wedge for a "Western" nation? This has been happening for years in China - to the point at which the randy, eligible bachelors are having trouble finding brides.

Forget about the merits of individual cases. Abortions are intended to prevent lives of misery for women (often couples) who are simply not in a position to raise a baby (whether they're too old or too young), or a pregnancy has occurred under duress (rape, etc.).

It was never intended to prevent the arrival of a person of a certain gender.

Your lawmakers need to jump all over this one, and I do mean quickly. Eugenics were supposed to disappear with the Nazis, for pity's sake!
21:45 May 12, 2009 by Dodger
I’m a little confused by the enthusiasm and willingness from some of our new Pro life American cousins on this forum. Please take some time to wipe the blood of all of those little Iraqi, Afghani and Pakistani children from your hands before you start waltzing in here calling us animals and evil. “It was the terrorists who did it” just doesn’t cut it to be honest. You are all implicit in the death and destruction handed out by your soldiers against innocents civilians albeit intentional or accidental.

If you want to spread democracy, or fight terrorism or implement regime, or change abortion laws around the world; then I’ve got some news for you... Your current strategy is all screwed up, and your tactical implementation of these strategies are in many cases criminal or just down right negligent acts.

You are a great country with some very smart people. So lead by example, and if your right, others will follow.

I doubt many people in Sweden thinks that gender based abortion should be an acceptable social practice in Sweden. We will fix it ourselves. Your insults and ignorance of our society is not helping the matter.
22:18 May 12, 2009 by Sven Golly!
There are so many things bad about Sweden that I'm embarrassed to have Swedish blood. Godless socialistic bi-sexual snobs.

To get an abortion, one should have to listen to the child's heartbeat before deciding to kill the unborn child. Kill an unborn child is okay, but no death penalty for murderers?

Go ahead and lower your birth rates. Muslims, with their rabbit like breeding, will eventually overtake Sweden and then you'll have Sharia Law.

Sweden was 'neutral' in WW2. Now you are neutered in morality. And don't pass out this BS about the US in a war on terror. Other than plunder and pillage other countries, what has Sweden contributed to making this a safer world? What has Sweden done to improve the lives of anybody other than it's own people?
22:28 May 12, 2009 by Stebro
There's no doubt in my mind that this will be changed. I mean it's not like this is China, or is it?
22:34 May 12, 2009 by nlidukdese
Well, how about you have a look at some statistics for official development assistance (ODA) by donor country:


Bottom line: in 2007 the US spent 0.16% of its gross national income on ODA, Sweden 0.93%.

Hint: military spending is not seen as official development assistance.
22:46 May 12, 2009 by harryshell
So - to all you nut-jobs who support abortion for any reason, supposing I have a friend who has a black boyfriend. Her child could come out looking white, black, or mulato. Suppose she finds out that the child has features typically associated with blacks. Are you now going to continue to say that she should be able to abort because "dating a black man is one thing, but having a black child, ugh!" Are you still going to be oh-so-smug about a woman's right to choose? Let's find out just how "pure" your politically correct views are.
22:49 May 12, 2009 by Stebro
I think that we should do what we can do decrease the amounts of abortions, by try to create a culture where people don't just see it as an option for not caring about protection. But there are cases where women get raped for example where it's completely understandable if they wanna do an abortion.
23:11 May 12, 2009 by dovid
I think we should kill everybody including ourselves. Then there'll be no more war. A lot of the people who are commenting are illiterate. But, you know, nothing is new under the sun, and, on the other hand, I have five fingers. However, as Professor Irwin Corey, the world's greatest expert used to say, ...
23:21 May 12, 2009 by charliesays
Wait, we're having a girl? But I painted the baby's room blue. Let's kill it and hope for a boy next time. I'm not painting that room again.
23:35 May 12, 2009 by harryshell
just to be clear - there may be valid reasons for an abortion. For people who are *struggling* with the morality of it, who have health problems, rape problems, etc., my above comments aren't directed to you. My comments are aimed at the abortion-for-any-reason folks.
23:38 May 12, 2009 by testplot
What gives any human the right to take a innocent life..... the only real right the woman has is too or not too have sex in the first place..... after the sex act itself, the consequences are out of her hands...... any action to interfere, from that point places you on the same level with GOD.... to give life or to take life...... SIN..... IS..... STILL ..... SIN...... CALL IT WHAT YOU WILL ..... IT IS STILL SIN..... All of this is just another sign.....
23:40 May 12, 2009 by ScottinPhilly
My child looked Swedish so my wife aborted him, then my next child appeared European, another aborition, third time may be a charm. My wife and I love aborting babies, she hopes to have 10 by the time she's done. She is anticipating the next to be a partial-birth abortion, her friends say they are the greatest. I love how open-minded and Swedish people are, they are so tolerant of opposing opinons and viewpoints, so refreshing.
23:47 May 12, 2009 by Muttlestar Galactica
Way shrill.

Yes it is. The Raptor is close at hand...
00:16 May 13, 2009 by 7
sweden recently voted by referendum to allow abortions for any child proved by DNA testing deemed "vilkenskitsnack". the wording of the referendum was: "vad otroligt löjlit det är att så många nya folk skriver dumma grejer om abort."

what i thought was most frightening to demonstrate the depraved mentality of the swedish psyche was this. "jag är så nöjd att see vår mest saknad svenska medlem, stebro, tilbax. välkommen tilbaka"

there are so many who are united in fighting against this evil, thank god. you must write your parliamentarian. you can simply copy and paste this "jäg älskär riktig ostkaka."

shame on you sweden. shame on you swedes. hitler lives in sweden.
00:20 May 13, 2009 by Puffin
00:25 May 13, 2009 by Jimbeaux_1599
As the Soviets invaded Finland and German invaded neighboring Norway, the Swedes stood by and watched from the sidelines, apparently more protective of their neutrality than fighting the barbaric hordes that were killing their neighbors. How's that for courage?

Now, the Swedes are too cowardly to stand up to murder, taking the low road of accepting abortion as "choice." Sadly, what respect can you have for people lacking any morality or bravery?
00:31 May 13, 2009 by Muttlestar Galactica
Yeah, those bloody Swedes. They also fail to hold doors open for you, walk slowly and their shops are truly dreadful.

I bet they even have those ticket queuing machines at the clinics too...Hell, next time I end up in one of these clinics because I've been raped by a immigrant yet again, I'll ask for some ham and 'slaw. Maybe try some of the olives too. If i'm peckish. Or maybe some pickles. I LOVE pickles when I'm rapenant.
00:35 May 13, 2009 by Puffin
Don't mention the War!

Or is that don't mention the Norweigen Blue?

00:36 May 13, 2009 by Stebro
Actually Sweden had troops in Finland
00:36 May 13, 2009 by 7
sweden is getting darker by the minute. i was walking through rosengård just this evening and i heard someone say to me "du bor ju inte ens i närheten hit javla noll-åttan". it really scared me.

instead i turned around and replied: "men kan jag inte skojar med de jankarna som snackar skit"

i have read that the police and fire departments won't go near there and there are now curfews. sweden will get what it deserves for allowing these immigrants into their once idyllic land. i'm embarrassed that there is viking blood flowing in my unaborted offspring.

ostkaka nån?
00:38 May 13, 2009 by 7
i suppose you think they should have aborted their finnish sisters?

kul att se dej här igen gubben!
00:39 May 13, 2009 by Muttlestar Galactica
Do these clinics redeem vouchers and validate parking?
00:46 May 13, 2009 by Stewie Griffin
Where's that translating thing again?!
01:01 May 13, 2009 by Stebro
gubben? I needed some challenge for a while, im bored
02:13 May 13, 2009 by Donnaprolife
Well, now we know. It's not the health of the mother or some other lame excuse such as it's my body and I'll do what I want. People just want to kill if they can't have exactly what they want or if it is inconvenient for them. We are going down a slippery slope. I suggest we all pray that abortion becomes illegal. YOU could be next. After all, perhaps someone will think you are inconvenient and suggest euthenasia.
02:48 May 13, 2009 by Eurostan
to reduce population of earth and there by reducing pressure on the resoures femalefoeticide is the best medicine.

the most polluting thing on the earth is women. because she produces more people to destroy the nature.
03:23 May 13, 2009 by High Priestess Kang - Slut
Damn me for being so busy at work! This is the funniest thread EVAR!!!!

(attached image not shown)
03:25 May 13, 2009 by High Priestess Kang - Slut
...and drink its blood.
04:05 May 13, 2009 by Kaethar
This thread needs to be shut down. It's been linked to by an American pro-life group who are now signing up and spamming the boards. I'm out of here.
04:20 May 13, 2009 by epitome
Its just not Sweden that has such little value for human life but here in the United States as well.

yet it is not every person in Sweden or the United States

or other places in the world that thinks this way.

I do think however we all share blame for not helping and encouraging mothers who are pregnant to have their baby's . We should treat these young parents with extra respect, pride, and gentleness . After all little babies and their parents should be a country's pride and boast.

If we cant be proud and give a heart felt hand to the future of this world .

it will continue on to be so sad a place where grand parents wont even have little graves to mark the comming and going of their grandchildren .
04:39 May 13, 2009 by hankmyers
It is very simple. Mind your own business!! If you are not the woman who is pregnant then it is none of your business. Therefore since it is none of your business. You have no argument. So if you don't want an abortion then don't get one. It is totally up to the woman who is pregnant whether or not to terminate the fetus, not a bunch of crazy religous fanatics who think they know what is best for everyone. Once again. Mind your own business.!! The world will be a better place for it.
04:52 May 13, 2009 by Cassandra15
Since people like Puffin are against war, I wonder how they would have reacted if someone like Adolf Hitler had invaded their country and then started selecting individuals who would be sent to the gas chambers and who would be sent to factory work camps. At some point people have to recognize that freedom isn't free. There are times when you have to fight to defend your liberty. People like Puffin can sit in their ivory towers and spout their platitudes, but if their country were taken over by a Hitler-type, they would be among the first candidates for elimination.
05:44 May 13, 2009 by tbeachhead
A radio program in Boston, Massachusetts, USA, was attacking the pro-life movement, when I called to ask how they felt about the Saudi trend to abort female babies. "That's barbaric..." said the host. Isn't it interesting that it's barbaric to discriminate when aborting your offspring...but the west is civilized, because we abort our babies indiscriminately.
05:57 May 13, 2009 by SKR
Are there any civilized nations left? Only savages kill unwanted children. Now previously civilized people have given up respect for life and caring about those who cannot protect themselves. And for what? So that they can play god with innocent lives, thinking their choices are more important than the lives of their unborn children. Barbarians aren't only at the gate, they're inside and killing their own. What exactly do people think babies are, dolls they can throw away?
07:03 May 13, 2009 by roughwood
The most pro-abortion people in the world are the pregnant women who go to an abortion clinic, plunk down their money, take their clothes off, put their feet in the stirrups and then heave a sigh of relief when it's over. If you want it to be a crime of pre-meditated murder, these women are the murderers. Would you have them arrested, tried and sentenced? If not, then you are a coward and a hypocrite.
07:09 May 13, 2009 by Inletwatcher
I was wondering what happend there! OMG the spam and eggs. I had to let this out, many of these posters are from USA. Please allow me to inquire if these hate posters remember the date March 31, 2005. Ring a bell? How about the 18th of March, same year? Remember taking the feeding tube out of this woman THREE times? She was starved of water and food and slowly horribly died by the laws of the USA. I think that everyone should take care of their own folks. Don't try crossing over boarders and pointing a shaking finger towards anybody. I shall quote my favorite move quote of better days threads gone by.

Please, point that high powered finger of perception at yourself.

**refills can of "Troll-B-Gone"

07:12 May 13, 2009 by Renfeh Hguh
Wow this place have been overrun by fresh US Pro-Life nutters.

If you have no connection to Sweden, fück off and mind your own bloody business. What a Swedish (or any for that matter) woman chooses to do to her own body is her choice and hers alone.

Pro life nutters make me want to call for retrospective abortion laws to be in place
07:17 May 13, 2009 by Renfeh Hguh
What a brilliant idea!!!!!!

If I am old in a nursing home and are no longer capable of even groping the hotty nurses during sponge bath time, then I want to be euthanatised
07:30 May 13, 2009 by Puffin
Did I say that I was against war? I don't think I ever said that at all - my parents were both bombed by Hitler - in fact my mother's neighbours were killed - she spent her childhood in a bomb shelter - so don't talk about stuff you know nothing about.

I just pointed out that it seemed contradictory for people like yourself to support the killing of war - yet fight to protect the 'rights' of a bunch of cells with no recognisable shape as human - seems like a big paradox - you seem able to pick and choose - not all life has to be protected at all costs - so why do you deny others to make their own determination on this issue?
07:42 May 13, 2009 by Princess P
And you know the full details behind why any given woman has an abortion how exactly?

I vote Grandma Death for prime minister.

Don't you just despair of people who confuse opinion with fact and then call those who know the difference idiots.

So abortion is ok in some circumstances and not in others and those circumstances should be decided by you, and a country at the other side of the world should change it's laws to fit in with your opinion. Anything else you want O Great And Powerful One?

The aquaduct?

You call us nut-jobs yet you think babies come in white, black or icecream!

Yes I'm sure it is, if the closed minded and intolerant sh1te on here is your norm.

That's the funniest of the lot. You do realise that this forum is based in Europe and that the countries of most of the regular poster were invaded by Hitler or fought like hell to remain free. What a numbnuts.
07:43 May 13, 2009 by Muttlestar Galactica
Damn straight Sister!

Here's a small extract from a letter posted in the The Guardian several years back that points to the fact that Hawkish Americans wished THERMONUCLEAR WAR on Europe.

"A major area of concern lay in the Mediterranean, where Soviet "fishing boats" had been patrolling for some time. Nato wished to prevent the real Soviet navy from entering the Mediterranean from the Black Sea and being able to join up with their other fleets, as well as supporting Nasser in Egypt.They were to be prevented from doing so by the use of conventional torpedo technology even if this resulted, as was probable, in nuclear war. Three British submarines armed with live torpedoes were dispatched from the first submarine squadron in Malta to intercept such an incursion that had recently occurred.

British naval intelligence was naturally closely involved and, before the submarines could reach the Soviet ship (or ships), they were recalled. We have, I think, to thank Lord Louis Mountbatten, then commander-in-chief Mediterranean and Nato supreme allied forces, Mediterranean, for averting a major risk of nuclear war at that time. The Americans, I believe, were furious."

So other than dressing in cheap gaudy clothing, being very loud and fat, they also WANTED TO ABORT ALL EUROPE!!!!!*

Dreadful really...

When you think about it.

*Wipes saliva from chin and screen & fires up tobacco pipe
07:44 May 13, 2009 by Renfeh Hguh
Don't forget Puffin that some pro-lifers believe that it is acceptable if a doctor who performs abortions is killed to "save many more lives" and even more common that they happily support the death penalty.
07:45 May 13, 2009 by Puffin
Not a lot of Christian thinking from over the pond...
07:52 May 13, 2009 by Puffin
Of course it is getting very confusing now that we have the biggest pro-lifer - The Pope - has admitted to being a member of Hitler Youth.

Getting confusing isn't it
07:52 May 13, 2009 by Puffin
... and are probably member of the pro-gun lobby
07:53 May 13, 2009 by Renfeh Hguh
I think the comment should reeally be "Not a lot of Christian thinking from over the pond..."
07:55 May 13, 2009 by Renfeh Hguh
To kill an intruder or a mugger is acceptable because they can fight back???

Maybe they should arm the foetus so it can defend itself before the abortion is attempted
08:00 May 13, 2009 by Muttlestar Galactica

I'll see your hilarious post and raise you...
08:02 May 13, 2009 by ProLifeFeminist
Hi Puffin and Company!

Thought you'd like to know that not all Pro Lifers are Christian! Check out:

Feminists For Life

The Pro Life Alliance of Gays and Lesbians

Pagans for Life

And this from American Feminist Elizabeth Cady Stanton:

"When we consider that when women are treated as property, it is degrading to women that we should treat our children as property, to be disposed as we see fit."

Have a nice LIFE!
08:06 May 13, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
Would you please prove your analysis with facts and preferably in a reliable theory, particularly developed by a scientific method?

(Church scholar works and theological findings are excluded)

What evidences do you have to envision such a horrible scenario in which any life seen as inconvenient would be eliminated? Your analogy is imaginary as much as like those who believe gay marriage is going to open doors to bestiality and paedophilia.
08:17 May 13, 2009 by Mzungu
Nuff said....

(attached image not shown)
08:19 May 13, 2009 by ProLifeFeminist
Uh, Paulo, I do believe that inletwatcher DID bring up one such instance here in the US.

Remember Terry Schiavo?
08:22 May 13, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
If I were in her situation I would like to decide for myself when to die! Not other people deciding for me, regarless of their motivation! That's why I fully support a law that ruled biological testament.
08:37 May 13, 2009 by ProLifeFeminist
Fair enough, Paulo, but in cases of abortion and euthanasia the PERSON ( whose Humanity has been taken away by SOMEONE ELSE!) doing the actual DYING doesn't have a say. Just hope to whichever God or Goddess you might believe in that your wishes will be respected.
08:51 May 13, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
No offence...But the only Goddess I believe is Diana Ross-like, does it count?


09:28 May 13, 2009 by Puffin
It's interesting that a mere clarification of a law that has existed for 34 years can provoke such international interest
09:37 May 13, 2009 by Harlemite
I'm an American who has lived in Sweden for nearly 13 years. I have to say I'm absolutely shocked (in a good way!) to see this many people fighting for the innocents on this issue.

I have never understood the logic of women being so pro-abortion, and saw this coming a long time ago. It's a very sad wake-up call. But will they listen?

As beautiful looking as the women are here, there's an emptiness that pervades most of their eyes, and they don't seem to understand why. God doesn't like the killing of babies. Call me crazy if you like, but first prove me wrong. The women here are hurting.

BTW, for the record, I'm against capital punishment as well.
09:47 May 13, 2009 by Markbase with an Invisible Q
No need; you're doing just fine.

Who made you the authority on the happiness (or misery) of Swedish women? Every Swedish woman I know, including my girlfriend, is neither happier nor unhappier than any women I've known in my home country of Canada, or the UK, where I lived for twelve years prior to moving here.

And for the record, some of these very happy women (in all three countries I've lived in) have had abortions as well. God doesn't like the killing of babies? I won't go into quoting verses, but I think you'll find passages in The Bible which contradict that statement.
09:47 May 13, 2009 by Ironmistress
Sweden is quietly slipping into Fascism.

Abortion used as culling the unwanted away - be it basis of race, gender, disability or ethnicity is nothing short what the Nazis did not too long ago. Sweden has now authorized exactly similar eugenics policy as what the Nazi Germany practised sixty years ago.

I am pro-life, and abortion is at best a tragedy and at worst an outright murder. And gender-selective abortions are nothing but murder. Simply and plainly. A healthy unborn child is killed in mother's womb - simply because what he or she is, not because what he or she has done. Sweden is now on slippery slope - the same slippery slope which sixty years ago began with eugenics and ended in gas chambers.

And if someone whines pro-lifers are all some nutcase Xtians, I am a Mahayana Buddhist.
09:50 May 13, 2009 by Markbase with an Invisible Q
Hope that's not contagious.
09:51 May 13, 2009 by Ironmistress
Harlemite, I second to your opinion. A true pro-lifer is against ALL killing of human beings, be it abortion or death penalty. Allowing one with opposing the other is hypocrisy. And using abortion as method of culling the unwanted human beings away is Fascism. Nothing else.
09:54 May 13, 2009 by Markbase with an Invisible Q
And what do you call denying someone the right to do what they see best for their own bodies and/or lives?

I love how "pro-lifers" call "pro-choicers" "pro-abortion".
09:58 May 13, 2009 by DidiE
Men Herregud- has anyone ever changed their mind about their opinion on abortion, religion, or socialism based on rambling posts full of apeshite tripe? Seriously? I guess the one that ticks me off most is 'Freedom isn't free.' Yeah, well, over here, health care, higher education, and SFI are. I'd prefer to live in a society that takes care of the living, before I moved to a society that has only a focus on enforced pregnancies. I am ashamed to have American blood, men sköj, inte alls, det är bara att det låter kul att skriva så.
10:00 May 13, 2009 by 7
i love that when people express their opinion they must resort to a series of trite and clichéd phrases and arguments.

we should start a buzz game. anytime you see the use of the following terms

a. slippery slope (this decision is just the beginning of a slippery slope)

b. fascism

c. hitler

d. eugenics

other suggestions of repetitive commentary (that is, without the poster's own thought and just a regurgitation of some other "collective" opinion)
10:02 May 13, 2009 by Inletwatcher
Oh DidiE! Don't forget how beautiful our "Sleeping Lady" is at sunset. Don't turn your back on homeland for the fact that a few people are yelling a bit to loudly. They will get hoarse soon, or fall to the axe of mods hopefully.

10:03 May 13, 2009 by Ironmistress
Markbase, do you approve cosmetic amputations - even if cutting off one's leg or arm would render him or her incapable of working and on the dole of the society? Now that's about deciding over one's body and life. Abortion is not about deciding over one's own body, it is about deciding over the life of another human being - who is not part of mother's metabolism, who is not part of her organism, who has its own genetics and individuality and own life. The little baby is just visiting inside the mother. I would NEVER kill my own babies and I am grateful to my mom that she did not kill me in her womb either.
10:05 May 13, 2009 by DidiE
Yes. Here in Sweden we approve of all cosmetic amputations, particularly to American immigrants. In general, we try to do brain transplants as quickly after their arrival as possible. We start them out with Finnish brains, as they need to work their way up to the Swedish ones.
10:08 May 13, 2009 by Ironmistress
7, no matter how much straw men you like to erect, the argumentation itself is valid: Sweden is quietly slipping into Fascism. Gender selective abortions are nothing but culling unwanted people away - the baby is killed because what he or she is, not because what he or she has done and doesn't have even the feeble argumentation that death is more merciful fate than life with a baby with birth defect.
10:10 May 13, 2009 by DidiE
IW- men jag bara sköjar, du. Ska aldrig förnekar mitt eget land, du. Det är bara att jag känner mig en lite förvirrad att der finns så många idioter, förstås.

Edit to add more buzzwords for abortion bingo

Freedom isn't free- this one is so stupid I will award 4000 extra points for any use



Baby Killers


10:10 May 13, 2009 by Ironmistress
DidiE, taking care of the living and taking care of the unborn are not mutually exclusive. Less tolerance to destructive cults and ideologies and more tolerance to the most vulnerable would solve the resource issue. Buddhism is about LIFE, not about killing.
10:13 May 13, 2009 by Mrs Brady
I'm nearly three mths gone pregnant , and am seriously strugglin with the decicion whether i should have my babies or not.
10:15 May 13, 2009 by DidiE
Wow. I never thought about it that way, Ironmistress. Oh wait, I did. Are you of the Tell Everyone Else How to Live school of Buddhist thought? Cool that it isn't just Christian fascists who feel they have that right.

Okay, regular posters. This thread has gone beyond moderately amusing, into the downright stupid and sometimes scary zone. These guys will be gone in a day or two, one hopes devoutly, but until then, isn't it time for the östkaka? Claiming territory back from the great unwashed masses is NOT just a time honoured American tactic- surely we can do the same?
10:17 May 13, 2009 by Markbase with an Invisible Q
I gave birth to an amazing blueberry cheesecake the other day. I loved her dearly.
10:17 May 13, 2009 by 7

and i propose an additional:

10:19 May 13, 2009 by Ironmistress
Mrs Brady, have you thought about giving your baby to adoption? There are many good families desperately trying to have baby but are unable to have.
10:20 May 13, 2009 by DidiE
But if you decided to start with a strawberry cheesecake, then changed your mind, that makes you baaaaaaad.

GD, you do make sense, but sometimes it's fun to just rassle with the hogs, anyway, although the farmer may make the money by charging admission to the gaptoothed idiots crowding round the fence.
10:21 May 13, 2009 by Mrs Brady
nearly three whole months I bin gone pregnant, and i think I have to go to that clinic to get rid.
10:22 May 13, 2009 by Ironmistress
DidiE, and who gave you the right Tell Everyone Else How to Live school of Nihilist thought?
10:22 May 13, 2009 by Harlemite
Markbase, no one made me an authority, nor did I claim anyone had. You might want to try dialing it down a bit. I may actually be a civilized person willing to listen to your side of the story who simply has a different opinion. It would be a shame to ruin that with rudeness.

I base my statement on the personal conversations I've had with women who have had abortions, and I can't recall a single one not having regrets, not to mention some still having nightmares about it. Ironically, I've noticed women here in Sweden have more rights and opportunities than most women in the world, yet they are realizing they STILL lack something. They are no less worthy or brighter than most. Far from it! They are some of the most intelligent and ambitious I've come across in my life. Yet they still lack something. They know it, admit it privately, and it bothers them. It should. Abortion isn't helping them.
10:23 May 13, 2009 by Bee
Woman dressed as bumble bee gives birth without realising she was pregnant

10. juni 2008 00:34

A British woman 'out on the town' on a friend's hen night in Blackpool, has given birth to a baby without realising she was pregnant.

To add to the surprise at the time she was dressed as a bumble bee!

Newcastle woman 30-year-old Ally Ashwell was on a pub crawl with girlfriends when she became ill - she returned to her hotel room and went into premature labour and found herself delivering her own baby in the hotel bathroom.

Baby and Mother are doing well...and so shines a light in a dark, dark world.
10:23 May 13, 2009 by Mrs Brady
Can anyone tell me why i should not bring off my almost three month old pregnancy?
10:24 May 13, 2009 by Markbase with an Invisible Q
Grandma Death is someone with whom I'd love to have a beer. And cheesecake, perhaps.
10:25 May 13, 2009 by Puffin
In Sweden?
10:26 May 13, 2009 by Harlemite
Name-calling instead of engaging in debate..? Hmm. Sad. Some don't realize that they actually lose the debate. And going anti-American? Wow! I won't even go into how weak that appears. Shame, shame, shame.
10:26 May 13, 2009 by 7
puffs...very clearly a troll. please do not feed.
10:27 May 13, 2009 by Markbase with an Invisible Q
I'm sorry that you hang out with a load of sad-sacks.

"Abortion isn't helping them?"

Where the hell did that come from? You seem to be implying that all Swedish women have abortions.

Bollocks. Have some cheesecake.
10:27 May 13, 2009 by Mrs Brady
But I was raped. who will want a rape baby?
10:28 May 13, 2009 by 7
right field.
10:29 May 13, 2009 by DidiE
Me. I gave myself the right. And then I took away your right to be Queen.

Get real. You are posting your own views on a board that is aimed at English speakers in Sweden. Many, if not most, will find your opinions amusing, at most. If you are going to get hurt feelings about that, take a Midol or go amuse yourself with firearms practice.

Missus Brady, you pore chile. I will adopt yer younguns. I got 8 of mah own, seriously. I love babies. But I hopes that this one, ifn you give it to me, will be toilert trained before he starts skoool.

Harlemite, and everyone else except the Buddhist Deputy of Morals, nobody here is going to change their mind about anything, because someone else posts something else. In these parts, we have two time honoured ways of dealing with fascist babykilling moral majority type booshwa while still allowing everyone to have their own opinion. One is the Ignore function. Poof. Magic. Ironmistress is now gone, and I didn't even have to go to a clinic. The second, even more interesting diversion from usless threads is...cherry, blueberry, strawberry and does kex make a decent substitute for graham crackers?
10:40 May 13, 2009 by DidiE
AH will take yer tainted rapebaby, and raise it up to be a proper pig farmer in these here parts. Ah promise not to let it in the friggabo-bomb factory till it's of age. You can send it on the bus after you have it, and I will even let you come for Julafton, so long as you promise to drink a shitload of schnapps. Coz that's how we roll here in Skövde.

Fer the rest of yews


Look up in the blue bar at the top of the page here, where it says control panel. If you click on that, you can then find a command that says manage your ignored settings or somesuch. If you pull that menu down and start typing in the name of people who deserve Siberian banishment, EB has made it easy to populate your own little Gulag. Try it. It's fun.
10:41 May 13, 2009 by Markbase with an Invisible Q
Well, dear Grim Reaping Old Biddy, I just happen to be heading up your way from June 5th until the 8th. I will start a separate thread, but this is just to inform you that I will be taking you up on it. Hope you'll be around then.
10:46 May 13, 2009 by Mrs Brady
Is that at all possible???

You see where I'm from I'm not sure it is
10:49 May 13, 2009 by DidiE
Whut? You ain't got no busses? Okay, hell, I'll throw in a moped, too.
10:51 May 13, 2009 by Mrs Brady
No, 1952.
10:56 May 13, 2009 by Inletwatcher
omg think its time for me to go kill dragons and loot and steal gold from the humans, located in the happy place called Azeroth.

It hurts my heart to hear/read my favorite people here falling for this crap. It is actually scaring me. Or is it scarring? I can't tell what is real and what is not.
10:58 May 13, 2009 by Mrs Brady
Are you teasing me, is that some kind of oven?
10:59 May 13, 2009 by VikingHumpingWitch
Ooh, I'm thinking of heading to Stockholm soon for nothing more than recreation (although I'll be fitting in an abortion as I've heard the clinics down there have better reading material), I could time it to coincide if that would be something Mark might be interested in?

Sorry for the threadjack, but I've read page 3 and pages 14 and 15 and realised that this isn't a thread, it's an abortion.
11:00 May 13, 2009 by Markbase with an Invisible Q
A trip down Memory Lane, especially for our American friends:

11:02 May 13, 2009 by Mrs Brady
I would fight to keep this baby, but I'm just not sure it will come out right.
11:03 May 13, 2009 by Inletwatcher
OMFG I am so outta here. Someone..please call Dr Phil..or Jerry Springer to take over from here on out.

11:03 May 13, 2009 by amira helenius
Grandma s death, you made my day by this picture you add , It made me laugh a lot , thank you

And it is sad to hear what some women do to their unborn baby, any way How will they be sure that the coming baby with the gender they want is a good one? It is sad because some couples are doing their best to have just one child and on the other hand you see women thinking this way.

Not only in Sweden , it is all over the world!!
11:06 May 13, 2009 by Bee
I think Editor Bob has a really big heart. Concerned that the Magic Fairy has nothing to do during the long nights this is a clever scam to let her really put her Magic Fairy Dust to some use during the long nights. Editor Bob, I salute you!
11:08 May 13, 2009 by Mrs Brady
No Mam! But the previous rapist, who got knocked off me by yer rapist actual, said he was short, black and a whole bit fey, with a big nose.
11:08 May 13, 2009 by VikingHumpingWitch
Trawling through the remainder now (yes, I also rubberneck at car crashes). I think this woman needs to be sectioned, but it's possibly the most convincing argument I've ever heard made. Then again of course, I hate children.
11:10 May 13, 2009 by Markbase with an Invisible Q
Hurrah! Melikes this idea!
11:13 May 13, 2009 by Puffin
but does it have the right to life?

... or should it have been terminated long ago?
11:15 May 13, 2009 by Princess P
Why waste your money, don't UPS deliver in your neck of the woods?

Thanks. Now I've got to clean the coffee of screen.
11:18 May 13, 2009 by VikingHumpingWitch
If this thread had been terminated I would have missed Muttley's "Abortion - really brings out the kid in you" picture and the world would have had a little less mirth in it today. Think on.
11:22 May 13, 2009 by Princess P
I've seen that somewhere else.
11:23 May 13, 2009 by DidiE
Turn away, Mrs Brady, turn away, I say. I am counting on you, your tainted midget rape baby, and placenta, for fertilising purposes.

Ewww. Compared to the classy pics just posted, ah might have gone over the top. Ah done mah duty here. Ah am gone.
11:26 May 13, 2009 by Mrs Brady
*/ Speedily Runs a hot bath whilst swigging gin and wrestling with the clothes hanger that's become attached to my brown bri-nylon wedding dress.

Thank you Granny death, that done went and made my mind up.

My black, gay jewish babies are soon gonna be riding that feelgood freeway to the pearly gates of everlastin' joy...Yee Haw!

P.S Oh, btw, If I'm not back in 5 minutes. Well, I probably won't be...

11:27 May 13, 2009 by DidiE
Sorry, I jes had to come back to see how our gal is doing.

Was that bridal delux dress a tube top? Cos I'm getting a mental image.

Laughing my gay small person ass off- this has been the best thread EVER.
11:29 May 13, 2009 by Mzungu
Mrs Brady,a wee bit of advise sod off....
11:29 May 13, 2009 by VikingHumpingWitch
Mrs B, you wanna join us in Stockholm 5-8th June? I've always had my abortions alone before, but we could see if they'll do us together and then afterwards we can hit town and get really drunk (dunno why, but every time I've had an abortion I get pissed really easily afterwards, it's a cheap night out and I hear Stockholm beer prices are exorbitant).
11:31 May 13, 2009 by DidiE
Ifn you go to Stureplan clinic, I will lend you my frequent aborter card, you get ten percent off, PLUS free orange juice and a post abortion tanning session.
11:37 May 13, 2009 by Princess P
Here it is:

11:42 May 13, 2009 by Mrs Brady
Do they have twin cubicles, where we could share the experience and watch 'Look Who's Taking' together as we both get hoovered?

And can we run around Stockholm before and after drinking gin based cocktails, wearing plastic breasts, devils horns and tee-shirts with funny slogans on saying like "Just Murdered" and "Abortion: Just Do It!", or "Lose Weight - Have an abortion!".

Can we bring pets and children, only i have a cat and a daughter , they're both 8, a bit slutty and I don't want them getting ideas.
11:47 May 13, 2009 by VikingHumpingWitch
I wouldn't bring your daughter, they'll be eyeing her up for a late-termer. But definitely the cat, cats are cute.

Can I stay off gin though, it makes me insanely horny and I usually try and leave it a couple of months in between before I get knocked up again. Otherwise I end up with stirrup-chafing.
11:55 May 13, 2009 by Muttlestar Galactica
And this is why we locallers cannot have nice things.
11:58 May 13, 2009 by VikingHumpingWitch
Like foeti?
12:10 May 13, 2009 by Muttlestar Galactica
If you were to stealthily tattoo a titchy grid on it's ickle back, could you call that 'graph-foeti'?
12:10 May 13, 2009 by Stewie Griffin
Have they all gone to bed then?

Or maybe they're busy volunteering at all the charities that support victims of abuse/trafficking/neglect/poverty/deprivation/hunger/homophobia/racism, try to eradicate malaria/HIV/AIDS/postnatal tetanus/fistula work with children in care/in the justice system/on the streets and the like, you know? Coz all human like is sacred...
12:13 May 13, 2009 by VikingHumpingWitch
I can't believe they're all in bed, don't they realise that here in godless, fascist Sweden we're merrily aborting as they sleep? How can they just give up and turn in when they could be fighting against this holocaust-esque atrocity by typing illogical nonsense on teh intraweb?
12:17 May 13, 2009 by Muttlestar Galactica
Am I right in thinking that NY is now about waking up?

If so, I s'pose we should bear in mind that folks there are somewhat less likely to be reading the cack that closet case, Drudge slaps up on his blog.
12:18 May 13, 2009 by Stewie Griffin
Maybe they're doing a praying-chain?

Or preparing to invade Sweden, force their religious views on everyone and kill the majority who don't agree or fit their religious extremis shoes (as they've threatened). Oh no sorry! Wrong year, wrong country and wrong guy....
12:21 May 13, 2009 by VikingHumpingWitch
I've never understood why Christians get their knickers in a twist about baby-killing anyway. Obviously they've never read the old testament or they'd know that god was well into baby-slaying and certainly has more blood of tiny baybeez on his hands than even the most efficient abortionist could hope to clock up in one lifetime.
12:36 May 13, 2009 by Muttlestar Galactica
And that obviously made-up god.

They really go on about that too.

Really grinds my gears.....
12:40 May 13, 2009 by roch
THANK YOU!!!! Oh GOD THANK YOU!!!!! Seriously you guys have made me laugh out loud so many times that I am getting weird looks from the Swede...

Grandma death: your pics are PRICELESS and between you and VHW ... well I haven't been this entertained for a while!

Something to be said for letting some nutters in once and while...(um not your guys but the other ones... haha)

I am going now to work with a smile! AWESOME!
12:59 May 13, 2009 by Stewie Griffin
Yep, it looks like a lot of them HAVE gone to bed!
13:03 May 13, 2009 by Mzungu

With luck they won't wake up....
13:21 May 13, 2009 by DidiE
Awwww. That was so cute!

You know, when I stopped laughing and started getting the nursery ready for the poor tainted midget rape baby (nearly got the pig shite shoveled out now) it was the comment by the Grandfather stating that his grandchild was aborted that bothers me most. Let me just state the obvious for the obvious-challenged, particular mah fellow Amuricans:

People. This is the Web. You might be trying to win your little arguments about abortion, but stating that your grandchild was aborted means that at least one person here would be able to track find your family member. Assuming our beloved B was also sworn to kill all baby killers, he or she wouldn't have such a very hard time figuring out who you were. Don't share information on this board that doesn't belong to YOU . Don't tell us your girlfriend was the victim of child abuse. Don't tell us that a family member had an abortion. Don't tell us about your cross dressing husband's urge to advertise in Pig Farmer Weekly. IF a loved one or acquaintance feels information like this belongs out here for every nitwit in the world to comment on, and, in the case of Drudge, make money on, let this person go to Springer or Dr Phil or here and post it him- or herself.

Nimrods. Okay, my quota is up for the day, too. I feel much better, and there's a baby shower-barbecue-pig slaughter to plan. Yee haw.
13:22 May 13, 2009 by Inletwatcher
Yeah!! The meanies are asleep for a few minutes and things are back to normal. Wow what a long strange trip, this thread has been.
13:25 May 13, 2009 by Muttlestar Galactica
'Meat paste' sandwich anyone?

13:36 May 13, 2009 by Mzungu
This ruddy thread is far to rough....


*i'm out of here*
13:38 May 13, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
Exactly. As a matter of fact, I am not too convinced that this increased influx of internet traffic which was NOT clearly focused on a target that could eventually become potential customers of goods and services their advertisers might be selling is anyway going to benefit these companies. Unless, Phed Phelps and his gang now decide to visit Sweden to picket against all these outrageously depraved laws because they were denied entry into the UK. In this case, they could buy their train tickets on the right top of this page. Buy Now!

If I ever decided to buy some advertising space on this website I would be more critical and analytical rather than only trusting in internet traffic numbers as they're supposed to be presented.
13:57 May 13, 2009 by hankmyers
A fetus is not yet a human being. It is alive, as that is true of all cells in a woman's body. It has no life of its own yet. It is not yet a separate life from the woman in whose uterus it is. All people terminate life all the time. We do this every time we eat fruits, vegetables and meats. They come from live plants and animals killed for our nourishment. People end life every time we cut a tree for firewood, every time we take antibiotics to kill off the live disease organisms which make us sick,every time we kill other human beings in self-defense or to prevent them from causing other human beings to suffer and die.

If a woman doesn't want to continue a pregnancy all the way. for any reason, she should have the freedom to end it, safely and easily. For the health and well being of that woman whose life we should value and cherish more than that of a partially formed fetus. Isn't it in the greater interests of all of humanity that women not be slaves?
14:00 May 13, 2009 by Markbase with an Invisible Q
Sorry hankmyers, but I think you're in the wrong place. That's far too rational for this thread.
14:03 May 13, 2009 by Princess P
Hankmyers, did you have to post that? I was just about to go and cut the grass. Now I'll have to leave it alone, don't want grass murder on my conscience.
14:21 May 13, 2009 by stupr
Mrs Brady,

As a family member of someone who tried for over 5 years to fall pregnent with her husband, I can say that you should seriously consider giving the child up for adoption ratehr than abortion. Just look into it.

My cousin tried for a very long time, and allshe wanted ws to have a family with her husband. This was lenghy and costly IVF period, which actually worked in the end. It was the last time she could try legaly, so she has also investigated the option to adopt a new born. Although things worked ou for her in the end, there are thousands of parents ho a not so lucky and you would be giving them the greatest gift possible.

I wish you the best of luck with his tough decision.
14:32 May 13, 2009 by hankmyers
A fetus is not yet a human being It is "alive," It has no life of its own yet. It is not yet a separate life from the life of the woman in whose uterus it is.People routinely terminate "life" every time we eat all the fruits, vegetables, and meats come from live plants and animals killed for our nourishment. People end "life" every time we cut a tree for firewood, every time we take antibiotics to kill off the disease organisms tha make us sick, or every time we kill other human beings in self-defense or to prevent them from causing other human beings to suffer and die.

If women don't want to continue a pregnancy (for whatever reason), she should have the freedom to end it, safely and easily. This is for the health and overall well-being of that woman, whose life we should value more than that of a partially formed fetus. And for the greater good of humanity. After all, isn't it in the greater interests of all of humanity that women not be slaves?
14:44 May 13, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
So until your cousin hasn't been able to have offsprings she didn't have a family? What was her husband for?
14:56 May 13, 2009 by 7
melikes as well. see, and all those naysayers say nothing good comes out of an abortion. here's the proof it does.
15:00 May 13, 2009 by Activist
P.E.R.S.O.N. http://www.flickr.com/photos/lunarcaustic/3385925240

The real discussion here should be, Why Do We Allow the Killing of These People? I defy anyone to look at this and tell me that is not a human person. If you support abortion, you support the killing of people for convenience. Even people conceived in rape or incest are still human beings. You support the indiscriminate killing of people for any reason? What about babies surviving induced abortion at 18-25 weeks, who survive the forced labor? You think the doctor should snuff out that life OUTSIDE the womb? Now we are talking euthanasia. How far we have fallen! Even dumb animals treat their offspring far better than this. How can we not be judged for this?
15:02 May 13, 2009 by idialogue
So bad on the face of so called Feminist society .. Abortion should be the same crime like killing a human being, Even greater than that , with out discrimination of Gender.

Important: Christianity Condemn Abortion but as the people are now a days living in Soul free society , may be that is another status quo.

15:04 May 13, 2009 by VikingHumpingWitch
Well you seem to be doing a fine job of judging, so I don't think that's the issue. I think your beef is actually that nobody cares what you think and nobody will decide not to have an abortion just because you think it's wrong.

Hurts being impotent, dunnit.
15:09 May 13, 2009 by Princess P

I think you have just hit the nail on the head.
15:14 May 13, 2009 by VikingHumpingWitch
Somebody, somewhere in Sweden right now, is having sex and not feeling guilty about it. Just thought I'd share that because it's bound to annoy a fundie.

"If you're so pro-life, do me a favour: don't lock arms and block medical clinics. If you're so pro-life, lock arms and block cemeteries." Bill Hicks.
15:20 May 13, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
Now I have another photo for you.

A.N.I.M.A.L. http://www.animalpicturesarchive.com/view...2&did=27861
15:21 May 13, 2009 by High Priestess Kang - Slut
If you *really* want to annoy a fundie you would put a critical adjective in front of the word, "sex."

15:24 May 13, 2009 by Miss Kitten
Or even better, "doggy style." Hehe..

Someone somewhere in Sweden is having doggy-style gay sex and not feeling the least bit guilty about it.

(Although, to be fair the pro-lifers probably wouldn't object to that scenario because there's absolutely no possibility of someone getting pregnant.)
15:26 May 13, 2009 by VikingHumpingWitch
Hmm, more gay sex = less unwanted pregnancy. So pro-lifers must be in favour of gay sex, yes?
15:27 May 13, 2009 by Miss Kitten
Seems logical to me.
15:30 May 13, 2009 by High Priestess Kang - Slut
:feels lightbulb turn on over head:

Those fundies must really be into bestiality if pregnancy prevention is the goal!

:bleats like a sheep:
15:35 May 13, 2009 by DidiE
So would the best outcome be having sex by yourself, while watching gay porn? Sheee-it. I can guarantee there are at least five people within sight doing that right now. I love Sweden.
15:35 May 13, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
Well, gay sex is only ok and sinless when:

- there's no sexual desire & homosexual filthy thoughts

- there's no sodomy action

- there's no mutual masturbation or single masturbation at all

- there's no ejaculation

Hence, it must be purely sublime and spiritual in which only pre-cum and soft boners are allowed. Is it similar to Holly Spirit-Mary bang?
15:37 May 13, 2009 by High Priestess Kang - Slut
Hooray for Sweden and all the perverts who live there.

Seriously, though...would y'all like me to drive to the nearest Baptist Church and have a look around? I bet someone's jacking off behind the building.
15:38 May 13, 2009 by Puffin
Abortion is not legal after the end of week 18 in Sweden - so you should get your facts clear
15:40 May 13, 2009 by Miss Kitten
Also it has to be in the missionary position, although I doubt if you could achieve any kind of penetration in any position with a soft boner.
15:40 May 13, 2009 by Puffin
Gay must be good - no abortions
15:41 May 13, 2009 by DidiE
- there's no sexual desire & homosexual filthy thoughts

- there's no sodomy action

- there's no mutual masturbation or single masturbation at all

- there's no ejaculation

This sounds like a lot of American marriages. Are you SURE you're not my straight ex-husband posting under an anonymous name?
15:43 May 13, 2009 by High Priestess Kang - Slut
I'm almost afraid to ask...

What, exactly, is forced labour?
15:43 May 13, 2009 by VikingHumpingWitch
It's when you get sent off to the gulags I think.
15:55 May 13, 2009 by Muttlestar Galactica
And I think we can all relate to this...(attached image not shown)
15:57 May 13, 2009 by DidiE
How come I didn't find that one when I googled Tasteful Abortion Jokes?

16:02 May 13, 2009 by VikingHumpingWitch
Ohhhhh what larks.

<ponders whether taking Activist's embryo picture and captioning it "Abortion - better out than in" would be a step too far>
16:06 May 13, 2009 by TomPennsylvania
If it was possible to prove scientifically, then there wouldn't be 30+ years of debate on this topic, now would there? The evidence that this is possible, however, is hinted at in my previous post which mentioned the Action T4 program. It started with a concept that many people may agree with, a parent exasperated with the care of his hopelessly crippled child, begging the government for permission to ease the child from his painful life. Over years of very subtle program expansions, this program eventually became what we now call the Holocaust. Yes, we're bringing up that example too often, but that is only because it is something that really happened, that real human beings really decided to do to each other. The argument that we as humans are not capable of such atrocity doesn't hold water in the light of 20th Century history.
16:11 May 13, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
Will you?
16:16 May 13, 2009 by Princess P
I've tried to resist, really I have, despite there being lots of opportunities on this thread to give in, I've remained strong. But I can't do it anymore, not if Muttles and Paulo are allowed to make their own commedy posters. It's time for a dead baby joke.

How do you know when a baby is a dead baby?

The dog plays with it more.
16:28 May 13, 2009 by DidiE
Oooh OOh. This is my daughter's favourite.

What's funnier than a dead baby?

Two dead babies.

What's funnier than two dead babies?

Two dead babies in clown suits.

And what's funnier than two dead babies in clown suits?

NOTHING is funnier than that.

I was just waitin on you, Princess.
16:30 May 13, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
You seem to fail to realize that the current legislation in Sweden is the Abortion Act of 1974 which states that up until the end of the eighteenth week of the pregnancy the choice of an abortion is entirely up to the woman. Thus, for more than 30 years of this revisioned law none of what you are predicting has happened. What did happen in this period was

- Swedish welfare has got substantially improved

- Swedes enjoy one of the most equal societies

- Swedish *children* are much better off than most children in the world and are happier than those from the United States according to recent reports

- Sweden is top ranked positively in the first 5-10 positions in most global statistics

Is this society similar to anything you found in Nazy Germany?
16:32 May 13, 2009 by Puffin
So why do you think that this will change in Sweden after 34 years of the exact same legislation?
16:32 May 13, 2009 by VikingHumpingWitch
How do you make a dead baby float?

Half a litre of coke, two scoops of ice cream and two scoops of dead baby.
16:35 May 13, 2009 by Bee
What's funnier than a dead baby?

A dead baby sitting next to a kid with down syndrome.

(two birds, one stone! I thankyou!)
16:36 May 13, 2009 by High Priestess Kang - Slut
I'm guessing you live in trailer in Clearfield or Clarion County, right? Just because you married your female cousin doesn't make incest any less disgusting.
16:38 May 13, 2009 by Princess P
What's red and creeps up your leg?

A homesick abortion.
16:40 May 13, 2009 by Bee
Why are test tube babies the most beautiful ones?

Because they're hand made.
17:05 May 13, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
Kang, don't be so intolerant! If they are two consenting adults over the sexual consent age - what's wrong with that?

Anyhoo, talkin' bout babies etc wouldn't it be a little off-topic to discuss *pregnophilia*, would it?
17:18 May 13, 2009 by High Priestess Kang - Slut
Shame on me for being rude to our, "guests."

Dollars to donuts, good old Tom in Pennsylvania and the rest of the Fundie lot confuse Sweden with Switzerland, though.
17:22 May 13, 2009 by TomPennsylvania
Ok, good point. It's more a moral / philosophical argument I was trying to make rather than a practical one. The US instituted abortion on demand at the same time, which was followed by decades of incredible financial success, as well as great strides in caring for the poor and the disabled. And like I said yesterday, it's illogical for society to worry about those individuals who do nothing but drain society, as the weak surely do. Yet as you said, here's society caring for the weak while at the same time allowing the discarding of its weakest.

What I perceive, and I'm not old enough to know what western culture was like prior to 1974, but I perceive a degradation of the value of life among people. I see parents who don't take their jobs as parents seriously, who look at raising children as more of a hobby rather than part of their identity. Children, people, family - these things don't seem as important as I imagine they once were. And the mental gymnastics we go through to allow the unborn to be summarily killed doesn't help us to reverse this trend.

For me, it's just wrong, I can't explain adequately why, I just know it's wrong. So my question yesterday was an honest one, if you think terminating a string of pregnancies until you get the right gender is OK, then what IS wrong in your opinion? Where are your lines drawn? Wherever convenient, or is there something there in your core guiding you, a line you won't cross no matter what it costs you?
17:24 May 13, 2009 by TomPennsylvania
Nah, wasn't thinking about either Sweden or Switzerland, specifically. I just like the folks here, whereever here is. I used to take part in BBS discussions back in the stone ages, and this is the first time I've seen similar conversation threads since then; I couldn't resist. How did I bring up the Swiss?
17:25 May 13, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
Since I am highly inspired by the reasoning nature of some of this thread's posters, so here ya have more LOL-milk for ya:

Kang, Princess P and Mutters ya aint getting well informed about things of life, eh?


17:28 May 13, 2009 by TomPennsylvania
Pregnant chicks are way hot.
17:29 May 13, 2009 by lolly

Godwin's Law is now in Play.


This thread how now entered into the realms of ridiculous!!

(attached image not shown)
17:36 May 13, 2009 by TomPennsylvania
Ok, but it was actually germane to refute what someone else said that it couldn't happen here - it did. But I'll take the cane across the knees - sorry.
17:37 May 13, 2009 by Princess P
Actually I don't think it is ok. I also think most people here probably also think it's not ok. The problem arises when the original topic of the thread gets smothered under an avalanche of crazies from the other side of the world hurling insults at every single person in a country, demanding retribution and calling everyone Nazis. That's where I draw the line.
17:38 May 13, 2009 by High Priestess Kang - Slut
You have no vested interest in the country in question yet you feel compelled to offer up an opinion? Who anointed you the vast crusader? Jesus wasn't a judgemental person so what gives you the right to be, hmmmmmm????

Look - I realize you're lacking in activities given the fact that it's not buck or doe season and you're not exactly sure what to do with that gun gathering dust in the corner of your trailer, but that doesn't exactly give you the right to pollute a forum with your Neo-Con, Fundamentalist, Bigoted, Religious Right agenda. Isn't there some Focus on the Family/Dobson radio program to occupy your little mind?

I'm going to be as blunt as I can conceive of being (no pun intended):

1. Your opinion is not valued (as a matter of fact, I think you will find that most of us find you offensive).

2. You are not going to convert the masses.

Instead of wasting your precious time firing off words into the ether, why not get off your ass, go to a local charity (non-denominational) and change the lives of those who are already on this earth who need it? After all - isn't that what your Lord and Savior would do?
17:49 May 13, 2009 by Mzungu
What can one say? TL has been invaded with...


*oh well*
18:07 May 13, 2009 by lolly
I agree..

I was just reviewing the entire thread and marvelling at the new one post wonders and feeling a little sick as they stream in spewing their ignorant opinions.

H8'rs of pro choice people - build a bridge and get over yourselves.

Some of you are clearly fundamentalists, go to the pope thread and do some catholic bashing.

I am pro choice, anti war and anti death penalty and really anti-hypocritical.

Why am I pro-choice? because if we go the "Christian direction" God gave me a choice and the right to make that choice.

Why am I anti death penalty? because the justice system is flawed and relies on human nature to make an objective decision that is always going to be subjective.

So - gender based abortions,whilst not my cup of tea, can be used for medical reasons and for these reasons alone should be allowed. Some Genetic "diseases" are fatal and you must look at the quality of a child's life. Below is a list of diseases that can be screened for - NOT NECESSARILY ABORTED OVER but this is a huge list. Moralists be aware that we are not doing favours to kids if we give birth to chronically disabled children that may never or can never survive without medical intervention.

Some with treatment can lead productive lives (that's awesome), whilst others will remain in a pretty much vegetative state.

Food for thought!

Achondroplasia Cystic fibrosis Hypophosphatasia PKU ADPKD1 Down syndrome Incontinentia pigmenti Retinitis pigmentosa ADPKD2 Duchenne muscular dystophy Kell disease SCA6 oSickle cell anemia Adrenoleukodystrophy Dystonia Klinefelter syndrome Sonic hedgehog mutations Age-related aneuploidies Epidermolysis bullosa LCHAD Spinal muscular atrophy (SMA) Alpha-1-antitrypsin Familial dysautonomia Lesch Nyhan syndrome Tay-Sachs disease Alport disease Fanconi anemia Marfan syndrome Tuberous sclerosis Amyloid precursor protein (APP) mutation FAP Multiple epiphysial dysplasia Turner syndrome ARPKD Fragile X syndrome Myotubular myopathy Von Hippel Lindau Becker muscular dystrophy Gaucher disease NF1 and NF2 X-linked hydrocephaly Beta-thalassemia Hemophilia A and B Norrie disease X-linked hyper IgM syndrome Charcot Marie Tooth disease HLA genotyping Osteogenesis imperfecta 1 Chromosomal translocations HSNF5 mutation OTC deficiency 1 Congenital adrenal hyperplasia Huntington disease P53 mutations
18:16 May 13, 2009 by What's the story morning glo
Though as I also stated, is it not better to commit a "Sin" and convienience yourself than to put a strain on a whole family, and ultimatly on a humans life from the moment they are born to the moment they die?

And do you not think that most women who go through abortion already feel bad about the fact they are doing it? Or do you not think they have gone through every alternative and come to stop here because there IS no other way for them? It may be "Killing an innocent life" for you, but from what I know, the majority of women don't just do it because they can't be bothered to carry it for 9 months.

No, I don't think it's right for her to do this, but as I've said, it's her choice. If she wants to live with herself after doing so, it's up to her. It is not you who has to carry that thought for the rest of your life, and if she did do it, you don't have to see her again if it disgusts you.

In a society that has "freedom of speech" and fredom to choose, why should we be alowed to choose such a life changing thing for someone else, and potentially for hundreds of people we don't even know exist?
18:21 May 13, 2009 by Renfeh Hguh
This has become a hilarious thread, I love the dead baby jokes, priceless

I'm glad Obermeister Bob never shut it down
18:54 May 13, 2009 by TomPennsylvania
Princess P, I agree with you 100%.
18:58 May 13, 2009 by TomPennsylvania
Right and wrong differ depending on what country you're in? I thought we were all part of Western Civilization, which is dealing with all of these issues together. *shrug* Thought I could offer up something new, maybe something someone hasn't already thought of before. If you want to just hear your own opinions parrotted, you could record yourself and play yourself back. If you would like to think, isn't it more insightful to speak to people who think in a different way?

Pretty much all of your descriptions of me are wrong, it's kind of funny. And as I said, I change the lives of people who need it by adopting several special-needs kids. I don't just yell at people and try to further an agenda, I actually live to make a difference.
19:11 May 13, 2009 by High Priestess Kang - Slut
Actually - right and wrong do differ depending on what country one is in. The United States is pro Capital Punishment. How many other, "Western Civilization" nations have legalized this barbaric practice?

And you are absolutely right. It is insightful to speak to people who think differently. We have all learned that you are a narrow minded moron from Pennsylvania who is using a Swedish news forum to promote *your* concept of morality.

Really? My descriptions of you are wrong? How is that, Tom?

Are you personally involved with Sweden? No.

Are you pushing your moral agenda on a random forum? Yes.

Do you have any respect for those who don't agree with you? No.

Make no mistake. I don't, "yell" at people whose ideas differ from mine. I do, however, have a phenomenally grand old time showing hypocrites the err of their ways. If you have a problem with my tone and approach, perhaps you should think about how your tone and approach is interpreted by those who have to listen to you, your condemnation and unfounded judgement.

You don't have a uterus. You cannot carry children. Yet, you feel oddly entitled to tell another living being what to do with her body.

Tend to your own garden before your start pointing out the weeds of others.
00:06 May 14, 2009 by TomPennsylvania

Have you ever gotten to know children with some of the diseases you mentioned? Many of them have a zest for life, and understanding of what is important, not matched by healthy children or adults. Do they suffer? Yes - so does everyone. Do they die? Yes - so does everyone. Life is short and painful for all humans. But my son, who is severely physically afflicted, has lived more deeply and richly in his 7 years than most people do in a lifetime. Certainly more than I did in the 30+ years before him. These children have the potential to be great people, and often are. Not "productive", in terms of finance, but great human beings nonetheless; there are things more important than money.
00:14 May 14, 2009 by TomPennsylvania
There are laws in my country I disagree with; I'm sure there are laws in yours you disagree with.

Not trying to promote anything; just offer a potentially different point of view. Could just ignore me, you know. I'm several thousand miles away; I can't actually hurt or even annoy you.

My apologies - I really didn't mean to imply that you were yelling. I only meant to differentiate myself from some of the close-eared and close-minded people just spewing vitriol, anti-Swedish, anti-European crap and then leaving. I just meant that I wasn't yelling; I didn't mean to say that you were. I don't have any problem with the way you get your point across. I really had hoped that there would be SOMEONE who actually wanted to have a good old logical, Socratic type of argument, discussion, or whatever, about something that we all obviously care enough about to keep on this topic. If all you have to offer is, "Shut the hell up, Yank", then I guess I'm wasting my time.
00:25 May 14, 2009 by High Priestess Kang - Slut
No. I'm not going to ignore you, Tom and here is why:

1) We are a lot closer than you think.

2) Your agenda is going to directly impact the physical well-being of women in the United States.

See, not only do you annoy me with your perceived morality, you can hurt me and hundreds of thousands of women if you got your way. You are the one trying to inject your morality into the governing law of *my* land (the United States). You and you ilk have absolutely no right to govern the body of another.

Stop making this about my being mean and start thinking about the crowd you run with. The group you associate with. The group of people who harass women for seeking a legal, safe abortion. The group of people who threaten physical harm to health care practitioners who perform this legal procedure.

You cannot demand respect when you're unwilling to offer it yourself.
01:14 May 14, 2009 by TomPennsylvania
You have me all wrong, ma'am. I don't run with anyone of the sort. I've never even seen a clinic much less protested one, much less threatened harm to ANYONE.

As far as morality being injected into the law, that's done every day. Somewhere we decided it was wrong to kill people, even if they really really pissed you off. I know there are Americans who believe that if they are disrespected, it is their right to kill that person. They think it's morally wrong for me to want that behavior outlawed. We disagree with each other, and vote accordingly. Thankfully, the majority of people agree with me, and manslaughter is actually illegal.

Concerning this issue, if it were EVER decided democratically in this nation that abortion should be universally legal on demand, then I wouldn't have much problem with it. But it never has. Clearly, a plain reading of the Constitution would put this as a state issue. Even ignoring the 10th Amendment, which everyone does, the Constitution is a document limiting federal power, not entitling it to every issue it wishes to foist itself upon. But what has happened is that a very un-democratic very small group of appointed officials determined what is now the law throughout the country. And so-called representatives of the people are too chicken to do anything about it, despite public opinion.

As far as your concern, the health of women, I'm concerned too. However, we need to learn to live with the consequences of our actions. Adults know how pregnancy happens and how it is avoided. Is it fair that only women have to endure months of discomfort, the risk of death, as the result of sex? No. Is it more fair to deny life to someone because it's inconvenient? I don't think so. You do - vote that way. But it should be votes of the people that determine the outcome, not a handful of oligarchs.

In any event, some of these practises should be limited - I think a majority of Americans would agree with that. Like in Sweden - limited beyond the 18th week. Prohibit partial-birth abortions. Certainly find a way to avoid successive abortions until you get the gender you want. Something. There are things to discuss, where the lines should be.

You really don't think so? Have at it, it's like having a sneeze?
01:22 May 14, 2009 by High Priestess Kang - Slut
Man. Do you fundies have some sort of playbook with random phrases that you rely on? Do you even understand what you're saying?

Democratically decided? FTW? You want a national referendum on abortion? The Supreme Court's decision making abilities is now inadequate? Who are you to make that judgement call?

And spare me the rhetoric about State's rights. All that tells anyone is that you feel you are smarter than the Federal Government and you get to pick and choose, out of convenience, what laws you will abide by (but heaven forbid you lose Federal funding for your pet projects in the process).

I'm still trying to figure out what sort of credentials you possess which allows you to be the legal scholar you profess to be and the medical scholar you profess to be. Because, as I see it, you're not exactly the brightest bulb in the box and the fact that you may have a role in decision making that directly impacts me scares me to death (FACT: a fetus is not viable without a host at 18 weeks, let alone 20 weeks).

Alas, you're a conservative. All for smaller government when it suits you and for legislation when things don't go your little way.
01:42 May 14, 2009 by High Priestess Kang - Slut
By the way, Tom, what do you think the Supreme Court should be doing? Hint: Peruse Article III of the Constitution.
01:42 May 14, 2009 by kmbr
All that tells anyone is that you feel you are smarter than the Federal Government and you get to pick and choose, out of convenience, what laws you will abide by (but heaven forbid you lose Federal funding for your pet projects in the process).

The United States was founded exactly with the idea of LIMITING the power of the federal government. And yes, the people in Utah know better the policies and laws they should live under than some nameless, faceless and often times unaccountable to them pol in Washington DC.
01:57 May 14, 2009 by High Priestess Kang - Slut
How'd that work out for the secessionist states in the Civil War?
01:58 May 14, 2009 by Shark99 - The Great Catsby
States rights is all well and good until you've got a lot of your people standing in knee-deep flood waters and human excrement; hungry, tired and angry. Where are the troops? Where is the federal government? Sorry, we can't do anything because we are not allowed to by your governor. Get over the Civil War already.
01:59 May 14, 2009 by Shark99 - The Great Catsby
Hahahha funny how we both mentioned the Civil War at the same time, HPK.
02:01 May 14, 2009 by High Priestess Kang - Slut
LAWL! I saw that!
02:10 May 14, 2009 by kmbr
I am guessing you are talking about New Orleans? Interesting how the neighboring state didn't have a similar outcome. Nor in the Iowa floods of 2008. Wards of the state--they will be helpless if the state doesn't act.
02:35 May 14, 2009 by Shark99 - The Great Catsby
Really, were you there in Mississippi and Florida, Texas? How about Iowa? Plenty of suffering all around, the people are still recovering in parts of Iowa. Sadly most people got their faux news from media outlets that didn't know what they were reporting. The situation was nowhere near as bad as the media outlets were reporting, no mass rapes, no snipers, etc. Of course disasters will always hit poor people the worst, and let's face it, Louisiana is one of the poorest states, and comparing it to Iowa and its rural social network is lame. Of course FEMA was pretty quick to respond to tornadoes and disasters in Midwest states, so I can't speak for that. Depends upon who is governor and what they are willing to do and ask for.
09:54 May 14, 2009 by alisonashley
I do not believe that abortion is a sensative issue. It is human related. We should talk about it in a logical sense and an emotional sense. We have to ask critical questions about abortion. Are we killing someone? If we are not killing someone why do they have to crack the skull, zip the bag air-tight or submerge the body under an acid bath and why do they ask if it is terminated? We should ask ourselves, Is it okay to use aborted babies for make-up and cosmetics? Did you know these that the items above are true? Ladies, we are suppose to be the safe-keepers and life-givers on the earth. We are acting like devilish men who kill and destruct. Have we not had enough of it? IS THE ABOVE MENTIONED NOT DISGUSTING? I do not think abortion is necessary and should not be accepted or acknowledged as "birth control". It is past time that we educate ourselves on all types proactive preventative measures and protect our sons and daughters. The womb is more dangerous than one of Hitler's camps and uses terrible tactics toward innocent victims. The womb is the most dangerous place to be...but good for men who are still profitting off of women. To whom much is given, much is required. Yes, I am disappointed in all of us who live in educated countries..who would donate to charities and then give abortion the "okay"...that is a double standard too. Please re-read and think!!!
10:00 May 14, 2009 by Markbase with an Invisible Q
They use aborted babies for cosmetics?

Frankly I find that hilarious. Wait until my girlfriend hears about that one.

Edit: What is your source of this "information"?
10:06 May 14, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
I think she meant that only aborted *GAY* babies are used for cosmetics...as everybody knows that gays have more expertise in fashion, grooming & style.
10:09 May 14, 2009 by TomPennsylvania
I don't have any "credentials"; I just know how to read.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Where is the right to end pregnancies defined in the Constitution? Would that be in Article III? I missed it.

The point is that th entire reason for the American Revolution in the first place is we decided it was better to be ruled by locally elected folks rather than be dictated to by a far-off, removed government. In many ways, the accomplishment of the Revolution has been undone, merely replacing London for Washington, DC.

And I'm for smaller government, all the time. I don't need legislation; I just need to be left alone. All I want government to do is to protect the weak from abuse from the strong. Oh, and roads are nice, too.

Oh, and I don't care when it's "viable"; children are not viable without support from adults for several years. It's just a matter of how much support is needed.

And you can call me a dummy; you're the one resorting to name-calling and subject-changing instead of formulating cogent responses. Which one takes more thought?
10:13 May 14, 2009 by Puffin
Keep the discussion to SWEDEN as this is a SWEDISH forum - we are not debating the USA

None of the practices that you mention above are legal in SWEDEN where most abortions are induced medically - not surgically - and over 83% occur by week 11. It is illegal to abort a baby in SWEDEN if it can survive independently outside the womb
10:15 May 14, 2009 by Markbase with an Invisible Q
Ding-dong, Avon calling...

Any dead babies lying around?
10:22 May 14, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy
Is Sweden a member state of the European Union or the USA?

Markbase, are you calling avon customer service in the USA or the local one in Malmo? You could have different answers.
10:28 May 14, 2009 by Markbase with an Invisible Q
Actually Paolo, Avon don't even exist in Sweden... I have a mate who works in purchasing for Avon in the UK, so I know...

But he never mentioned having to hang out behind dodgy clinics waiting to pick up tiny corpses. I guess some things are better left unmentioned, eh?
10:36 May 14, 2009 by TomPennsylvania
You're right, two Americans got into it. Sorry. I was saying that I wish we had the same freedom as Sweden, though, to decide this democratically.

Is that how the law is written, by the way, that the determination is if it can survive? Because the age that babies can survive outside the womb decreases over time. My 2-year-old son was born at 26 weeks, and while he has some complications from the care he received, his mind is 100% intact. He's actually very bright. But 10 years ago he could never have survived at all.
12:09 May 14, 2009 by VikingHumpingWitch
Actually foeti are extremely good for moisturising the skin. Also, their tiny little fingers make for excellent foot massagers.
16:36 May 14, 2009 by Paulo +fab muscular than Jonnhy

OMG! That's exactly what I'm looking for!

During the early years placenta cosmetics was considered a luxury only available to the rich and famous. The treatment was very expensive selling at up to $10,000 per injection. Today you can buy a whole range of Plazan natural skin care products including anti wrinkle creams and cosmetics masks based on placental extracts for as cheap as $30-90. Particularly placenta collagen mask regularly used by Jennifer Lopez will cost you only $86.55.


...and this one a cutting edge non surgical treatment offered worldwide but in Europe in the Netherlands. Although it needs further research it sounds very promising! I hope these new technologies based on stem cells will also one day produce a treatment capable of increasing lean muscle mass and reducing body fat rather than being used solely in the cure of so many degenerative diseases!

16:47 May 14, 2009 by billyb362
Duplicate posting removed
17:20 May 14, 2009 by lolly
I'm all for Sweden's abortion laws.

I think they are fair and logical.

I wish I lived in a less conservative country, but I don't, I live here in AU.

I noticed you failed to comment on my post when I pointed out the various genetic disease available to choose from based on Gender too.

You're more than happy to debate emotives, but not facts?

It's natural for us to want to protect the weak, the feeble and look after them. It's a pack instinct. We look after those who are not able to look after themselves, after all, that's what socialism is about.

We're at a cross roads here.

Nature Vs Nuture.

If I had a 1 in 2 chance of having a baby that would end up with a fatal disease, what action do you think I would take to prevent this?

Back in the dim dark ages when medicine was a natural concept, babies who were too sick to live due to their various birth defects or diseases usually died before they hit puberty. Nature would take it's course and the kid would die before it could breed. This is part of Darwin's theory of Evolution. The strongest survive, or adapt to change.

We are unnaturally extending the lifespan of children who have and will have no quality of life. We even treat humans who are dying of cancer or other diseases worse than we treat animals when they are dying or in distress and keep them alive when clearly, once it's terminal, you should let them go. [pro euthanasia here too].

I would imagine that in a society like Sweden there will be guidelines on when it's appropriate to abort due to Gender. I also think too many people think the worst of others and assume that Swede's will start aborting all their girls.
17:46 May 14, 2009 by Kaethar
For the last time, you cannot ban something just because some people misuse it. This goes for alcohol, fastfood, freedom of speech, abortion, etc.

You cannot control peoples MOTIVE. If you try to people will lie anyway.

Besides, I have not seen a single convincing argument here against it. All those posting have been against all abortion and are therefore hardly the people to make a judgment on this.
13:37 May 15, 2009 by billyb362
It can't be exclaimed enough: "Shame on Sweden…"

The far left liberal mindset here has finally reached the point of ethical/moral insanity.

This decision on gender-based abortion is a human atrocity and an indication of a society in decline. Do they somehow rationalize that abortion is just a simple and harmless procedure where a lifeless chunk of fetus tissue is extracted from a pregnant woman's womb? Do liberals like to pretend this procedure doesn’t cause the baby any pain and that there’s no trauma involved?

Now, if the mother is not content with the gender that, too, is justification for the extermination of the baby. (Or “fetus” as liberals prefer to think of it)

Make no mistake here; abortion is a hideous act of violence performed on a thriving, living baby. (On behalf of “a woman’s right to choose”)

I'm sick of hearing that it's "the mother's body and her choice.”

Watch a LIVE ABORTION and tell me if you think it's the mother's body that's being dismembered or the bloody legs and arms of the BABY'S body!

(Separate human entity)

Liberals detest a visual exposure of this gruesome reality, yet they support it at every turn - They don’t want to burden the mother with any sense of shame and accountability for her decision. This woman from Eskilstuna in southern Sweden - who had twice had abortions after finding out the gender of the child – should have been reprimanded for neglecting the use of contraceptives and treating pregnancy in such a casual manner; Instead, Sweden rules in favor of her gender discrimination and provides an abortionist to accommodate.

If Sweden is to retain any sense of ethical dignity around the world, it should fire all those individuals at the National Board of Health and Welfare for this barbaric decision.

Special footnote: Upon further reflection, I’ve changed my mind about some abortions;

I think we should, in fact, make abortions available for mothers of future TROLLS! After all, they don't have a life anyway.


15:13 May 15, 2009 by Good Dog!
I've always said that we've got the worst country for psycology and "thinking things through". This business with our laws on abortion and "specific rights for women" is just one more of the zillion cases where we make decisions without thinking of the possible consequences. In circumstances as these - WE ARE USELESS! Then, to make things worse, once our mistake is out in the open, we stumbble all over our feet making equally illogical amendments because to "take a step back" is somenting no Swede is capable of. That, and saying "I'm sorry, I was wrong."
15:21 May 15, 2009 by Shark99 - The Great Catsby
That was actually pretty good and sums things up. The vast majority of people use abortion responsibly
15:30 May 15, 2009 by TomPennsylvania
Lolly, I did comment on your post. It was to see your response to it, in fact, that motivated me to check on this thread today.


You see, I have several children with dibilitating diseases, as you described, but I do not see them as having a life inferior to my own. In fact, they thrive in ways you may not imagine, especially if you have not known children like them intimately.

Thanks for considering this. I do see your point, and agree, that the weak dying is a natural part of evolution. I just think that we as compassionate humans should be better than the cold heartlessness of survival of the fittest. (I can see you're not cold and heartless; but nature is.)
16:06 May 15, 2009 by tackalack
people have been debating this for ages, and frankly I'm sick of hearing it. I'm also sick of pro-lifers claiming it's murdering a 'baby'

and, call me crazy, but I think something can only be truly alive once it starts living - i.e. there is a certain level of experiencing things that goes along with living, you know?

further to the point: it is much more fair to this unborn baby (that you seemingly care SO much about?) for it to be aborted, than to be born into a family that either

-doesn't want it

-can't afford it

it is far more cruel to have an innocent child grow up in needlessly difficult situations just because YOU don't like the idea of death


p.p.s. I am not an extreme liberal - just a rational, intelligent person. People often confuse the two...
16:21 May 15, 2009 by Puffin
What gender based decision??? There was no gender based decision

The Swedish abortion act has allowed abortion for any reason until week 18 - a doctor asked for clarification whether he could 'vet' patients resons and declare some patients reasons unaaceptable such as gender - the answer was that the law that has stood for 34 years is still valid - and reason means any reason
16:24 May 15, 2009 by Puffin
You seem to be talking about partial birth abortions - these are not legal in Sweden - just because these barbaric prctices are used in the US does not mean that other countries use them.

Also abortion of a fetus capable of independent life outside the womb is not allowed in Sweden - hence the 18 week limit
23:14 May 15, 2009 by kmbr
Typically only other extreme liberals.
23:37 May 15, 2009 by Puffin
Of course here in Sweden the term 'liberal' tends to be used in its traditional sense rather than the US rhetoric sense - so the liberals tend to be on the right wing on politics (minimal government/free trade etc)
01:54 May 16, 2009 by kaze
I just love it how in American 'liberal' is their word for the left.

And by that they actually mean the centre left but somehow the extreme left also exists. But then to such nutters socialist is a insult

As said FYI anti-choicers more right wing people are liberal than left.
02:03 May 16, 2009 by kmbr
Interesting to learn. More accurately, and to more keen observers, such people are referred to as the progressive left. Though, progressive isn't really an apt term either.

It also seems to work out that if you believe in limited government, individual responsibility and free markets you get lumped in with the religious, social right. Not always the case either.

Such is the way it works with a two party system and broad coalitions under one umbrella.
14:21 June 1, 2009 by Stewie Griffin
Clearly not pro all life then?


Maybe we should mob their website...
14:53 June 1, 2009 by High Priestess Kang - Slut
And tell disgusting baby jokes? =)
18:10 June 1, 2009 by Stewie Griffin
Just copying and pasting all the great DIY image/slogans from this thread should be enough!
21:12 June 1, 2009 by High Priestess Kang - Slut
I wonder with the Pro-Life Brigade has to say about this:
21:28 June 1, 2009 by Stewie Griffin
Sounds like saving face is better than saving lives.

Not surprised really: no sex ed = more unsafe sex
03:24 May 10, 2012 by jf_7phils
i feel nauseating after reading this articles and comments.

I cant believe how unborn children are treated like trash in Sweden.

I pity you people Swedish people.
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