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Sex change sterilization 'a dark chapter': Reinfeldt

TT/The Local · 31 Jul 2010, 12:19

Published: 31 Jul 2010 12:19 GMT+02:00

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An inquiry carried out by the National Board of Health and Welfare has proposed removing both the sterilization and divorce requirements from the 1972 law.

At a party leader debate held on Friday as part of the ongoing Pride festival, Prime Minister Fredrik Reinfeldt said he was keen to modernize the law and expected a legislative amendment to come into force during the next term of government.

“It’s a dark chapter in Swedish history,” he told news agency TT.

Both the Left Party and the Green Party wished to go further and called for an official review to examine the possibility of lowering the age limit, currently set at 18, for those wishing to change sex.

Christian Democrat leader and social affairs minister Göran Hägglund was the sole party leader absent from Friday’s debate. But he told news agency TT that he was not opposed to any of the changes proposed by the health board and would now await the outcome of the referral process.

“Sterilization is a major operation and it feels outdated. We must now find a way that is legally sound and works well for the people involved,” he said.

Hägglund also gave his backing to the removal of the law’s divorce requirement.

Story continues below…

“The current legislation is from 1972, so it’s quite old. In light of the new [gender neutral] marriage law it should be possible to resolve this in a way that doesn’t necessitate divorce.”

TT/The Local (news@thelocal.se)

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Your comments about this article

12:42 July 31, 2010 by Nemesis
It is about time someone in government realised that sterilising someone so as to give them rights in society is just plain wrong. The thing is, transsexual people are sterilised naturally as part of the sex change process, so legislating sterilisation in legislation covering transsexualism, is just plain vindictiveness.

The age limit at 18 is in direct contravention to the United Nations Convention on the rights of the Child, which Sweden has signed up to. Sweden is actually breaking its internation obligations by having that 18 year old limit.
14:12 July 31, 2010 by Rebel
Actually, a woman changing to a man does not have to remove her ovaries, does she? Wasn't there some woman who switched to a man but has since had two babies?
15:10 July 31, 2010 by Nemesis
@ Rebel

If you purchase a map of the world, you will see that Sweden and Europe are a few thousand kilometers East of the USA. Sweden and Europe are not part of the USA.

Just because something happens in the USA does not mean it happens in Europe.

In most European countries ovaries are removed as part of the surgical treatments for female to male transsexuals.
16:03 July 31, 2010 by billyb362

Are you a transsexual? Or what is the status of your sexual transition/orientation?

Just curious...you seem pretty knowledgeable on this issue.

If I read you correctly, you also seem to be advocating sex change for a child under 18, without the parent's permission? There's just something terribly wrong with that picture; young people around that age have so little psychological maturity, ya know?

Feel free to clarify things if I've misinterpreted you somehow. Thanx
16:04 July 31, 2010 by Mr. Puppy
Finally! I can't believe it's taken this long for them to review this law.
16:19 July 31, 2010 by Nemesis
@ billyb362

As usual you inability to see beyond your christian fundementalism shines through.

Your bigotry and need to accuse shows how empty your arguements are.
16:38 July 31, 2010 by Jes
I know some one who wants to change into a lizard .

Where is this science ?
16:55 July 31, 2010 by dwb5555
@ Nemesis Drink a beer and relax.

@ billyb362 made a statement and even ask for comments if wrong.

And you attack for christian fundementalism.

Where did that come from?

I have seen some of your post before and you really don't add much to the conversation because most of the time you are attacking others.

Maye you should learn others will take your point serious if you were not so rude.
17:17 July 31, 2010 by Nemesis
@ dwb5555

I have had previous conversations with him.

Hit the discuss button at the top of the page and you will see what billyb362 talks about on the local forums.

He is an extreme right wing fundementalist in the USA, pushing anti gay rhetoric which he seems to be obsessed, while trying to quote the bible and making a mess of it.

He promotes Alex Jones conspiracy theories on the forums as well.
17:56 July 31, 2010 by Avidror
Who is the girl on the right? I mean, the one in green.
18:50 July 31, 2010 by americanska
Ok, fine. Adults can do whatever they want with their bodies. But the government shouldn't pay for the operation.

As far as children under 18 deciding to have a life changing operation......that is just a sick idea.
19:20 July 31, 2010 by Amber Dawn
The "pregnant man" in the states is hardly the first and certainly won't be the last and I am sure it has happened in any country that doesn't require sterilization. This dude was just the only one trying to make a name for himself. Female to male transsexuals are less likely to have their reproductive organs removed, as "passing" is easier than with male to female. The organ created isn't exactly functional and it's terribly painful and expensive. Some choose to have no surgery and some choose to only have top surgery. It varies by case. I know a 20 year old who is male to female and had a hysterectomy just last week. It's a personal choice. Often hormone treatments alone will stop reproduction possibilities. I saw a documentary about a couple where he was a female to male transsexual and she was male to female, both pre-op but had been on hormones for years. They got pregnant by complete accident (which means they were having heterosexual sex as the gender they were born into, which in my mind defeats the whole idea, but whatever). He carried the baby and she took hormones to be able to nurse when the baby was born. It was more than my little brain could handle. It seems like if you had felt like you were a man on the inside your entire life, the last thing you would want to do is the most female thing you can. I am not a transsexual, so I can only assume it's like being gay and hard to understand unless you have dealt with it. I am thankful I have never had to. I have seen enough people struggle with the difficulties of it.

As for the divorce requirement, I don't get that at all. If the partner is willing to stay married and is supportive, why shouldn't they stay married? I guess it goes back to pre-same sex marriage laws and threw the couple into very murky water.
19:40 July 31, 2010 by americanska
Exactly Amber - nemesis hates the USA and is very narrow minded.

The following comment by neme can be explained pretty easily.

"In most European countries ovaries are removed as part of the surgical treatments for female to male transsexuals."

That is because those European countries are so backwards that they have sterilizations required.
21:35 July 31, 2010 by billyb362
"He is an extreme right wing fundementalist in the USA, pushing anti gay rhetoric which he seems to be obsessed, while trying to quote the bible and making a mess of it"



*This man-woman has never, ever, had a 'conversation' with me - he/she simply produces inflammatory insults on MY posted topics - Most of which, are so immensely hateful and vulgar I will not even repeat them here.

*If Nemesis had any degree of honesty about him/her, this person knows I reside in Sweden with my wonderful Swedish Wife, as I have prior stated.

*I have never posted ANYTHING about the 'gay agenda' or made comments about it. That is a hideous lie.

*Though a Christian, I've NEVER quoted scriptures on any thread or postings. That accusation is absolutely false.

If you'll read through some of Nemesis' comments, he-she does in fact express hatred toward Americans...for reasons that really don't make much sense.

But yes, please do hit the discuss button and read over my topics; this Nemesis person has used expressions and name-calling that are deplorable and unwarranted, for no other reason but that he or she did not agree.
21:41 July 31, 2010 by Icarusty
Wow, so this outdated law is still in effect... and 1972 wasn't exactly that long ago either... the USA enforced eugenics and sterilisation during the 30s up until the 60s on minorities and the disabled... so much for the developed world.
22:07 July 31, 2010 by Kaethar
The law made perfect sense. If someone was changing from a woman into a man because they considered themselves male it wouldn't make sense for said person to have the ability to get impregnated (the absolute proof that the person is indeed a woman). But nowadays you have a new transgender movement which thinks the terms "male" and "female" are outdated - and because of the complaints of this group the law is being overturned. There was nothing controversial about the law at the time.
22:25 July 31, 2010 by alingsaskev
There is a horrible history of Eugenics in Sweden actually, and this is just the tip of the iceberg. Between 1934 and 1975 Sweden sterelised some 62,000 people, second only to Nazi germany as far as European figures go.

Even as far as 1996, social democrats rejected paying compensation to those who had been sterilized. No one in Sweden raised the issue of compensation to the victims until there was international attention to Swedish eugenics following a 1997 series of articles in by the Polish-born journalist Maciej Zaremba, in Sweden´s largest daily, Dagens Nyheter. In 1999 the Swedish government began paying compensation to the sterilized and their families an equivalent to 21,000 USD to those who had "not consented" and who applied for the compensation
23:17 July 31, 2010 by Tutu
a woman changed to a man

the she-man latter decided to have a baby

is that not the feminist side in operation

men dont have babies. Men dont feel like having babies but women do.

the question is why did she transform into a man in the first place when she felt like having babies.
00:38 August 1, 2010 by GLO
Great law , wish we had it here in US.... I would add they must pay for all future health costs related to the fruit exchange..
01:38 August 1, 2010 by Amber Dawn
"Men dont feel like having babies but women do"

Who is to say what men feel? There are men who wish they could carry a child. I agree that it seems to go against the "I am a man on the inside" argument, but who is to say that the desire to have a child doesn't outweigh gender identity?
02:32 August 1, 2010 by billyb362
A MAN can say what a man feels.... a man 'feels like' a man. I am a man, I feel like a man. I have never experienced a desire to become pregnant like women do. I have never had the desire to breast feed a baby.

I have never experienced being nauseous from having a monthly period, because I have never had one, therefore I cannot relate.

There are some things that men do NOT feel and cannot 'feel', that women do feel. I say this as a man, having all the anatomical attributes of a man.

Men can in no real way KNOW what it feels like to be A WOMAN. Trust me, I've heard that statement from women a few times in my life!

11:38 August 1, 2010 by Nemesis
@ alingsaskev

The Swedish government needs to apologise to all affected by the old eugenics policies in Sweden and compensate them.

I am glad to see someone bringing up the history of Eurgenics and sterilisation in Sweden. Thousands of Sami people have still not recieved compensation for what was blatant population reduction of a minority.

The legislation about transsexuals being sterilised is a remnant of that dark time and should be removed as a priority.

@ americanska

I suggest you read American law in that area first. Some US states do not allow transsexual people to change there documentation as noted by human rights grops worldwide. Even Iran allows that.

Google will pop up the USA as the most backward country in the first world and bordering on third world countries in that area.

The USA is one of the most dangerous countries for transsexual people, according to your FBI.

As for under 18's. The fact you would deny medical treatment to an under 18 year old, says a lot about you.

@ billyb362

Coming from someone who trolls a forum looking to find ways to object to entire groups in society the same rights as everyone else, your hypocrisy really stands out.

When someone supports the rights of any of those groups to have the same rights as the rest of us, you are so blinkered, you assume that the person defending that group is a member of that group.

You can not even comprehend that someone might be friends with or support the right of a person from another group to exist.

In Sweden, Northern and Western Europe it is quite common to find people from various minorities who have friendships with those from majorities.

You are so narrowly focused in your thinking you can not even realise that some people support the right of other groups to exist in society, even those they do not fully understand.

On the various forums on the local, you have shown your contempt for various groups.

You have an issue with anyone who is open minded?

You have an issue with anyone who has liberal thinking.

You have an issue with people who are not religeous.

You hate leftist politics.

You hate homosexuals.

You hate transsexuals.

I am sure there are other groups you hate as well.

What the hell did you move to Sweden for?
12:11 August 1, 2010 by Amber Dawn
And these insulting statements are unnecessary. You feel 100% comfortable in your gender and feel like you were dealt the correct bits and pieces. I do, too. I can't comprehend what it feels like to have the wrong body. For truly transgendered people, it's agony. It's not a whim. They don't get up one morning and say, "You know... I am tired of these boxers! I want to wear a dress today." They aren't cross dressers. They truly feel like there was a genetic mistake. I would think correcting that would negate the desire carrying a child later, but maybe it doesn't for some.

As for the under 18 thing, scientific and social studies have shown evidence that patients are far happier with the outcome of sexual reassignment surgery at a young age that those who have it later. It's a horrible struggle to go through as a parent, but in the end, I think they are just doing what they feel is right for the child. If your child is suicidal because of this, as many are, you'd go to any length to fix that. The younger it happens, the more successful it usually is.

@billyb362 Saying you know what "a man" feels like is inaccurate. You know how YOU feel. It makes sense, as you've only ever known what was going on in your own head. I can only know how I feel. I didn't say a man could know what it feels like to have a period or experience PMS, but some could and have stated to have the desire or wish to carry a child. There was a man in Sweden last year who tried to produce enough breast milk to feed his son. Not everyone feels the same. Thinking that way is the basis of discrimination based on gender, sexual identity and sexual preference. You (and I mean a general you and not you specifically) think you know how someone should behave or is supposed to feel because it's how YOU feel. If they don't, then they are wrong or perverse. Many times it isn't that way.
12:34 August 1, 2010 by americanska
Its not a "treatment" nemesis. For say, a 15 year old to decide he wants to be a women or vice versa and on their own get to government to give them that operation is just sick. it says a lot about the "progressives"

you do know google is not a source right? it brings up anything on the internet, you can always find something to support your bias.
12:37 August 1, 2010 by Mr. Puppy
It is 2010, I'm surprised so many people still get so upset at the thought of people living out their gender in non-standard ways, but I'm glad that those people are now in enough of a minority that they can no longer prevent transpeople from living their lives in peace.

It is sad to see Kaethar defending the law, though. Slavery wasn't controversial before it was abolished in Sweden or other countries either, but just because it wasn't controversial when it was legal doesn't mean it wasn't wrong. I'm often surprised at the ways in which people often don't learn from the past and don't see the connections between past wrongs and current wrongs. But I'm comforted by the fact that things do continue to move in a positive direction for more and more people over time.
12:41 August 1, 2010 by Nemesis
@ Amber Dawn

I found these peer reviewed papers, in a literature search, regarding sex reasignment of under 18 year olds.

1. Sex Reassignment of Adolescent Transsexuals: A Follow-up Study



2. The Feasibility of Endocrine Interventions in Juvenile Transsexuals

Journal of Psychology & Human Sexuality, Vol. 8(4) 1996 ©1996

Louis Gooren is Endocrinologist and Professor of Transsexology, and Henriette Delamarre-van de Waal is

Professor of Pediatric Endocrinology, both affiliated with the Hospital of the Vrieje Universiteit in Amsterdam,

P.O. Box 7057, 1007 MB Amsterdam, The Netherlands.

Louis Gooren, PhD

Henriette Delamarre-van de Waal, PhD

3. The Treatment of Adolescent Transsexuals: Changing Insights

Peggy T. Cohen-Kettenis, PhD,*§ Henriette A. Delemarre-van de Waal, MD, PhD,†§ and

Louis J. G. Gooren, MD, PhD‡§

*Department of Medical Psychology, VU University Medical Center, Amsterdam, The Netherlands; †Department of

Pediatric Endocrinology, VU University Medical Center, Amsterdam, The Netherlands; ‡Department of Endocrinology,

VU University Medical Center, Amsterdam, The Netherlands; §Institute for Clinical and Experimental Neurosciences, VU

University Medical Center, Amsterdam, The Netherlands

DOI: 10.1111/j.1743-6109.2008.00870.x
13:39 August 1, 2010 by Kaethar
@Mr. Puppy: Where did you get that I was defending the law? I'm simply pointing out that sex change sterilization was never "a dark chapter" in Swedish history (unlike ethnic sterilization). It was never forced and was always consented to by people who wanted to change sex (and therefore wanted none of their male/female parts left). The 'third gender' movement didn't even exist back then. Even today a sex change is only paid for by the government if psychologists can prove the person wants to be 100% male or 100% female. When the law is overturned (as it should be due to freedom of choice) those who want to stay non-sterilized will probably have to pay for the operations themselves. Because wanting to keep your ovaries "in case you change your mind" or "just because" aren't really signs that you've always been a man in a woman's body. -.- Someone who wants to keep their DNA for possible future children simply has to freeze some samples, after all.
14:16 August 1, 2010 by Z-man

"A MAN can say what a man feels.... a man 'feels like' a man. I am a man, I feel like a man. I have never experienced a desire to become pregnant like women do. I have never had the desire to breast feed a baby. "

(you also wrote some other stuff along the same lines which seem to be deleted)

Your insinuation is that you are a real man and anyone who is a real man like you will never feel any different and want to carry a child.

While I am a "real" man, and while I feel just like you (never having had an urge to be pregnant), I do not think I can or should try to define what a "real" man is and whether people are living up to my definition of it.

Nor can I speak for how all men or "real men" feel.

As one dude to another dude, to believe that what you feel is what everyone else feels, is not only illogical, but plainly egocentric projection and narcissism.
14:25 August 1, 2010 by voiceofreason
I feel sad when our elected officials have nothing to discuss but regulating different forms of depravities.
14:30 August 1, 2010 by billyb362
"It is estimated that an individual seeking to have this 'gender-reassignment' surgery will spend about $40.000 to $50,000! for a complete sex change operation"

I have a simple question: WHO should satisfy this extravagant cost?

No spin, please...just the facts.
14:38 August 1, 2010 by Nemesis
@ voiceofreason

Your lack of reason is noted.

@ billyb362

As I have pointed out before, Sweden is in Europe. Europe is a few thousand kilometers east of the United States. A snip and tuck is less expensive in Europe than the US and most appear to privately go to Thailand anyway.

European society is based on equality for all. I know that concept maybe completely beyond your comprehension.
15:07 August 1, 2010 by americanska
nemesis just keeps showing their complete lack of knowledge about simple economics. Price is not the same as cost, the socialist governments in europe can make it cheaper for people to get the operation.

That answers billybb362's question. The rest of us that pay taxes are the ones that foot the bill if the operation is done in Sweden.

@nemesis - you speak of being open minded but in fact you hate anything that is not liberal and European.

You viciously hate all things American and all things conservative. That is not open minded. I can't see any reason other than jealousy for your behavior.
15:17 August 1, 2010 by Nemesis
@ americanska and billyb362

Taxpayers in Sweden pay for all health care. Everyone gets health care regardless of weather they are single mothers, atheist, smoker, brown, yellow, white, jewish, christian, transsexual or gay. All of those people pay taxes as well. Transsexual people also pay taxes. If you are willing to single out a minority not to recieve tax benefits, then most likely you will do the same with other minorities you do not like. What other minorities do you believe should not have health care?

If you hate our liberal, progressive society, maybe you might want to consider the following.

sas.com has one way flights to the USA. You can leave if you don't like what we in Europe are.
16:16 August 1, 2010 by billyb362
Thank you, Nemesis - though I think your honesty was coerced.

So! the TAX PAYERS of Sweden should pay these extravagant costs, under the umbrella of 'health care', for those desiring a 'sex change operation/gender reassignment.'

But just prior to satisfying that lofty priority, maybe the government should first provide Comprehensive Dental Care! for those suffering from toothaches on a daily basis, and make sure THESE tax-paying citizens can get a root canal and crown, instead of having to get those critical teeth pulled for free!

(And that's just ONE example)

Until such a time, let's try and keep the priorities of government spending of tax-payer monies in proportion to the real needs of Swedish citizens.
16:28 August 1, 2010 by Nemesis
@ billyb362

The only liar here, is you.

So you oppose transsexual people receiving health care.

What other groups do you oppose getting healthcare?

Name them.

You have previously made clear your real hate of homosexual people. Why don't you be honest about it and admit which other groups you hate?

You should have left your american bullshit in the USA or go back there.
17:05 August 1, 2010 by Amber Dawn
Someone who smoked two packs of cigarettes a day for 20 years wouldn't be denied expensive cancer treatments. A recovering alcoholic would be given a liver transplant. Arguably, both of these examples made a conscious choice to do something that would cause harm to their bodies. Tax payers cover these costs for more often than paying for sexual reassignment surgery. Transsexuals feel like there was a genetic mistake made through no fault of their own and the psychological pain they suffer is something that can't be measured. A transsexual doesn't choose to feel trapped in the wrong body anymore than an alcoholic chooses to have that overwhelming desire for more alcohol. Both need treatment. Yes, there should be extensive psychological evaluation and I agree with the requirement in some countries of living as the other gender for an extended period of time, but it's a treatable disorder. I don't get where you can draw the line between one and the other. I don't fully understand it, but greater minds than mine have proven it's the correct course of treatment in many cases.
17:21 August 1, 2010 by Nemesis
@ Amber Dawn

Billyb362 and others just base there ideas on what they hate or don't understand. They can not even comprehend that we have universal healthcare in most countries in Europe and that universal means everyone is covered, not just everyone who is white, anglo saxon, male, blond haired, blu eyed and rich.

There was a publication in Nature some years ago on the subject of transsexualism which clogged up the scientific forums after it was published.

It was evidence based on brain dissections, that transsexualism occurred in the womb.

Nature 378, 68-70 (2 November 1995) | doi:10.1038/378068a0; Accepted 28 August 1995

A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality

Jiang-Ning Zhou*, Michel A. Hofman*, Louis J. G. Gooren† & Dick F. Swaab*‡
17:33 August 1, 2010 by Avidror
Who is the girl on the right? I mean, the one in green.
17:44 August 1, 2010 by Nemesis
@ Avidror

Maria Wetterstrand (MP) of the The Green Party. She has the Stockholm kommun seat. In the Rikstag she is seat number 172. ( I think)

Her blog is.

18:55 August 1, 2010 by voiceofreason

I am trying to imagine what manner of being you are but I can't seem to be able to find a good match. Why do you think you have the right to insult anyone.

Swedish politicians seem to to have much to do, otherwise, this endless discussion about sex distracts from the real issue of making this country more prosperous and safe, now and in the future.
19:07 August 1, 2010 by Jan#1
My quick opinion on this matter is that whatever you were determined to be sexually at birth, life that life and adjust!! Be gay or live a life of comfort however that may be along life's journey. This opinion is not based on religion just on looking at the outcome of what I have observed after the sex change. Laws will only screw up no matter what... Life is a journey to learn and enjoy !!
19:38 August 1, 2010 by billyb362
Reality check: To these self-interested, 'progressive-thinking liberals' matters of a sexual nature ARE the most important thing in society and politics; everything else is trivial in comparison.

- To hell with all those Swedish, tax-paying citizens who are suffering toothaches, need a root canal and crown!....we got people in society who want their damn sex-change operation at the tax-payers expense, and they want it now - entitlement.

So yeah, I just get a little pissed at these 'progressive-thinking' libs whose hierarchy of priorities are nothing less than bizarre and self-serving.
20:04 August 1, 2010 by Nemesis
@ voiceofreason & BillyB362,

As I have pointed out earlier if you had bothered to read my posts, transsexualism starts in the womb, in the Hypthalmus, soon after gestation.

Do you both think of an entire minority in the Swedish society in a sexual manner?

Transsexualism has nothing to do with sexual acts. It has to do with changing sex. If you could take your minds out of the gutter for a second, you would realise that.

@ voiceofreason

You are the one making insulting statements.

You are the one who used the word depravities to describe transexualism.

I suggest you read the peer reviewed references I post earlier and take note of the ages. Are you seriously suggecting that clinics with have young children in them are full of depraved children?

@ billyb362

Your sex obsession which you are imposing on this discussion, is best discussed with a psychiatrist.

As for dentistry. You are anti-left so you oppose free dental care. Dentistry in Sweden is free for those under 18.
00:19 August 2, 2010 by americanska
nemesis fails to read anyones posts including their own. Just keep spouting off the nonsense, it's fun to read. Who is the one full of hate on this forum? i know it isn't me.
09:09 August 2, 2010 by concha de tu puta madre
Does anyone agrees with me they are no beautiful Swedish women over 40?? At that point of age they all gravitate into Maud Olofsson and Beatrice Ask lookalike.
10:14 August 2, 2010 by Nemesis
@ americanska

In answer to your question you are hate filled. You base all your opinions and answers in bigotry.

@ concha de tu puta madre

10:37 August 2, 2010 by Rebel
concha de tu puta madre, to a large extent you are corect, but I do not believe it is a function of their genetics as much as the effects of Swedish society.

For instance, on a 20 yer old the whole "take on the role of a man thing" can give a young woman kind of an impish, fiesty woman look. Sad thing is, once a woman with this attitude reaches 45 she just looks like a worn out male transvestite.

Also, in many cultures a woman who is in her 40s will attempt to still look glamorous, and she will also have a postive outlook on life. Most Swedish women just cut their hair short (easier to manage) wear baggy clothes and allow themselves to get fat -- this is the segment that looks more like bull dykes, except most manly lesbians I have known in other nations can actually be nice and not have a chip on their shoulder.
11:43 August 2, 2010 by americanska
Not sure nemesis, you might have to show me where i have had any kind of hate speach. I can easily point out yours.
12:17 August 2, 2010 by Nemesis
@ americanska

Your comment.

"But the government shouldn't pay for the operation."

You are stating that an entire minority should not recieve medical treatment. I assume you have other minorities to refuse medical treatment as well.

Your comment.

"As far as children under 18 deciding to have a life changing operation......that is just a sick idea."

According to the peer reviewed publications I mentioned above, it is not a sick idea. The fact you would refuse any group medical treatment on the grounds of age, is sick.

I also find it very hypocritical coming from an American. In the USA every year hundreds of new born intersex children have there sex assigned by a surgeons scalpel. You come from the country which invented the idea of surgery on new borns for social instead of medical reasons. I assume you oppose that as well. Tell you what, do some reading. http://www.intersexualite.org/
12:55 August 2, 2010 by americanska
nemesis - i love how you don't have the ability to read and comprehend my posts. you only pick and choose a few words.

I never said i would refuse "treatment". I simply don't think that someone under 18 should decide for themselves if they should have the operation. You should need a parent/guardian to agree....i know that the entire socialist society is based on replacing family with the goverment but I don't agree with it.

Being born with two sexual organs it not the same as "feeling" like you are a women when you are actually a man. A medical professional advising the parent/guardian on what to do to correct an intersex kid is very different than a 15 year old boy wanting to be a girl.

And yes, the government performing that operation based on the childrens word alone is very sick indeed.

We get it - you hate the USA (or at least play off our jealousy as hate) and you try to find out anything that is bad in the US to make yourself feel better and you completly turn your head away from all the terrible things happening in Europe.

You are the least open minded person on this forum.
13:28 August 2, 2010 by billyb362
Nemesis - After having visited this web site you recommended, I thought it would be enlightening for the viewers to read the following, carefully:


Our societies have accepted a binary construct between male and female which does not reflect Nature and the enormous variety of possible sexes which overlap one another in various gradations on a spectrum with male at one end and female at the other. The arbitrary division of biological sex into only two categories makes all sex assignments of an individual problematic. Neither the genitalia, nor the chromosomes helps one determine the "true" sex of an infant. The gonads, hormones and the internal reproductive organs of the infant are also not reliable indicators for determining conclusively the sex of a child. Each child is born with a unique combination of all these factors and the different possible combinations are very numerous, making all sex assignments of infants a mere conjecture.

We campaign against all non-consensual normalisation treatments of infants that are not medically necessary and favour the right of all intersexed children to determine their own sex identity once they are capable of communicating it to us. Furthermore we advise parents to respect the sex identity of their children and to do all that is necessary so that their children can live according to their choice.

Once the child has communicated clearly their own sex identity, it is crucial that the child's identity be respected both by the parents, physicians and therapists who are caring for the child. All steps should be taken to respect the child's own sense of self by being given access to all health care necessary to facilitate life in the sex the child considers most appropriate.

Therefore, we are campaigning in favour of changing the current medical paradigm concerning nonconsensual normalisation treatments and against the diagnosis of gender dysphoria or GID in intersex individuals who feel they were assigned the wrong sex. OII affirms that the true sex of the child is determined by their own inner psychological perceptions and that the right of individual intersex persons to affirm their own sex without medical or governmental interference should be a basic human right.

Nemesis, I now have a suggestion for you. Why don't YOU post THIS TOPIC on 'Intersexualism' in the Discuss forum for readers to gain an appreciation for your position on this subject? I'm sure this would make for interesting debate. Just hit DISCUSS - NEW TOPIC - and provide the readers with your assertions. I think this is just the opportunity you need to make your case.

I'm excited at this prospect!
15:11 August 2, 2010 by Amber Dawn
I don't believe a child under 18 CAN get any sexual reassignment treatments without a parent's permission. Even if the parent were somehow required to allow the child to do it, there is no way to force support within the home. I have heard of cases of 15-16 year olds trying to become emancipated or put into the care of a supportive adult when the parent doesn't agree with the decision. Often one parent will be supportive while the other isn't, causing big problems within the family. I don't think anyone here is arguing that a child should go through this alone.

Intersexed and transsexual are not technically the same thing, but psychologically they are very similar. The only difference is that both genitalia or abnormal genitalia were not present at birth in a typical transsexual case. What the individual goes through at or even before puberty is much the same. Often when the parent of an intersexed child follows the advice of the doctor and chooses a gender at birth, they choose incorrectly leading to what can only be defined as a transsgendered child. They have the anatomy of one sex, while feeling that they are the other. While the intersexed child has to deal with the pain of knowing that the choice was made for them without allowing them to experience anything, the transsgendered child has to deal with the fact that there are no physical clues for the parents, making it more difficult to accept. Transitioning, public acceptance and personal acceptance are very much the same in both cases.
16:43 August 2, 2010 by rumcajs
Regarding the compulsory sterilization, yes I think they should get rid of it. About the age, I would leave it at 18+, not lower. Most of teens are not wise enough to decide about this things. C'on, this is not just a tattoo.

And regarding the "nemesis-billy-anver-americanska issue", I'm with nemesis in this one.

I don't have any problem with Americans in general, but I do have a lot of problems with people that go to a country which is anything but what they like and wanna change it. I've been living in CZ for 5 years and czechs really go on my nerves, but I leave those comments for the pub with my close friends and if I have to discus the topic with a Czech, I don't do it with that comparetive tone of "you are sooo wrong" most Americans in this forum use. That's why nemesis gets pissed off.

I don't understand why someone who likes snow would go to the beach to complain. Ohh, yeah... your wife. So talk to your wife and go to a place you both like. And you don't say the beach is not "wrong" (even if you think it is), you just say you don't like it.
12:31 August 3, 2010 by LeoKinmann
someone in the posts above clearly lacks manner. be pissed off if you want, but try to remain civilized! since i know that some of my opinions are gonna draw insults from a certain someone in this thread, i'll start with one pre-emptive strike: Nemesis, you are a schmuck!
19:53 August 11, 2010 by inallsincerity
It seems to me that the fuel behind the flame wars going on in this comment section has to do with different understandings of what causes transsexualism, how it is diagnosed and how it is treated in Sweden. The Local is partially responsible to blame for this confusion by using inaccurate statements such as 'wishing to change sex' when the accurate phrasing would be something like 'in need of treatment for gender incongruence.'

Gender Identity Disorder is internationally recognized and there are specific criterium that the individual most meet after a thorough evaluation in order to be diagnosed. There are also internationally recognized guidelines that physicians and other health care providers follow to treat people who have this. The guidelines are extensive and have been practiced for over 40 years.

It is a myth that an individual wakes up one morning and decides they want a genital surgery. That's simply not how this works. I realize, that the article makes it sound that way. But as someone who is transgender and currently undergoing gender transition (the process takes at least 3 years, minimum) I can honestly say that the there is way more that goes into this issue than the casual reader of the Local has any clue about whatsoever.

I was a Fulbrighter and am a university graduate and am married to a Swede. I contribute quite a lot to society and I pay my taxes as well. I did not 'wish to get a sex change' any more than Santa Claus lives at the North Pole. I am entitled to healthcare for a recognized medical condition. Quite frankly it is much cheaper for society to pay for gender transition than repeated suicide attempts, lengthy psychiatric sick leaves or decades of psychiatric treatment that has been proven to fail. All I needed was a mastectomy and hormones and the problem goes away completely and I continue to be a productive contributor to society, tay paying and all. That is actually extremely cheap, considering the alternative ways of 'treating' gender identity problems which, as I already mentioned, are proven failures. But I also support health care for other things such as pregnancy and fertility treatments and alcoholism and similar issues which actually are a result of choices of individuals.

As for sterilization-- that would be an added unnecessary expense for the taxpayers (including myself). I feel no need to have my ovaries cut out of my body. They just sit there doing nothing and I have a life to live not to spend in recovery from surgeries. A forced divorce from my husband would also be an unnecessary expense, not to mention just plain insulting.

But since I'm a foreign citizen, it's a different story. I noticed that the article doesn't mention the third part of the law: must be a Swedish citizen. Since when does a resident need to be a citizen to access health care?
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