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'Your apathy elected the Sweden Democrats'

The Local · 27 Sep 2010, 15:16

Published: 27 Sep 2010 15:16 GMT+02:00

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My name is Naomi , I'm 44, and I'm an immigrant.

They say that it's easier for me because I'm a "white immigrant." I come from the United States, so I'm not one of them; I have a Swedish last name and a Swedish husband and at least a high school education with some college in the US. But that's not true, it's not easier, and being "white" doesn't make a difference.

The Sweden Democrats (SD) have shaken up Sweden. Many don't want to admit that they voted for them, others are proud to have voted for them, and in the meantime, the country feigns shock and disgust that it's happened.

I hate racism. I've been subjected to it all my life. I'm female. I'm overweight. My heritage is mixed - I'm half Mexican and half white. I've dealt with those prejudices in the United States. Never did I dream that I'd meet up with a different kind of racism and prejudice when I moved to Sweden!

I'm now faced with prejudices of being 44, female, having small children, being an immigrant, and, although my spoken Swedish is fine, I have trouble with my written Swedish.

You who are outraged that the Sweden Democrats won places in Riksdag, you who voted for the Sweden Democrats because you are tired of the way that immigration has been handled here in Sweden, whether it be asylum seekers or otherwise, I have a question for you:

Where were you?

Where were you when I needed a friend to help me get out of the house and integrate into society? Did you even try to get to know me, or did you just sit and fika with your Swedish friends? Did you even LOOK me in the eye and say hej when we passed?

Where were you when I needed someone to speak Swedish to so that I could improve my language skills and attempt to integrate into society better? Did you volunteer to do anything with the immigrants in your area, with others and me, or did you stay safely away from us who are different and definitely not Sven Svensson in how we dress or sound or look?

Where were you when I sent application after application in for a job? Did you give me a job or even offer me a praktikplats when I almost begged for the chance to work for you, or did you see that I was female, over 40, with small children and an immigrant and immediately place my CV to the bottom of the pile, regardless of my merits?

For those who claim outrage to SD's 'victory,' where were you? To those who voted SD because you were tired of how things were being handled and the mess that immigration and asylum is here in Sweden today, where were you?

How many of you even attempted to be a part of the solution instead of taking the "easy way out" and voting for a party that has its roots in racism and hatred?

Martin Niemöller was credited with the following verse. Through the years the words have been changed out for whatever the current fear is. Change Communists to Asylum seekers, Unionists to Immigrants, and Jews to Muslims and you have the current situation here in Sweden.

They came first for the Communists,

and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,

and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,

and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Story continues below…

Then they came for me

and by that time no one was left to speak up.

If you don't do anything, if you don't speak up, if you're not a part of the solution, then, when it's all said and done, who will be left to speak for you?

Where were you? How did you help? If you didn't help, then don't shake your head in shock and disbelief, rather, hang your head in shame.

Your apathy helped get SD elected!

By Naomi Olofsson

The Local (news@thelocal.se)

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Your comments about this article

16:44 September 27, 2010 by LeoKinmann
words with passion!
17:10 September 27, 2010 by spo10
very well said!
17:11 September 27, 2010 by kuntta
Good analysis,

Many people are upset with the far right but the reality is that the hate expressed by them and their success in the last election reflects a general problem in society. A problem which in my opinion cannot be solved by the government alone but also by individuals doing what is right in their own way when they have the opportunity.
18:33 September 27, 2010 by Nemesis
At last, some one writing something sensible and to the point, on the local.

Naomi Olofsson. Well written.
18:49 September 27, 2010 by witsltd
Very emotional.

I think it goes both ways. Immigrants who are surprised that SD has been elected, can ask the same questions to themselves.

Did they do enough to integrate? Did they do enough for their children, who will be later known as immigrant children?

As everyone already can assess, SD will continue winning in upcoming elections.
18:58 September 27, 2010 by darrenj
Well said madame Olofsson

You and me have alot in common

Well except that I'm male and do not have a Swedish last name. Other than that, we could be twins!

As witsltd said above apathy works both ways!!!
19:49 September 27, 2010 by nntt
hats off to you Naomi Olofsson....... well done it´s just sheer apathy!!!!
20:13 September 27, 2010 by vladd777
As a 'plastic Swede' who moved to Sweden in 1986 all I can add is that essentially Sweden follows western culture and if one is not prepared to accept this fact at face value then the best thing to do is go back home to that which you know and understand.

I never voted for SD but I think they have opened a can of worms which very much needed to be opened and now politicians, if they are wise, will take this opportunity to tackle the problems that uncontrolled immigration drags along with itself.

If immigration is to succeed there have to be laws set down for immigrants to read and choose to either accept or reject.

Acceptance or rejection needs to be legally documented and those who reject need to move on to other countries that fit better to their requirements.
20:21 September 27, 2010 by boby
Another lefty that thinks that everything needs to be given to her on a silver platter

I am so sick and tired of bitter people accusing everyone else for their problems.
20:44 September 27, 2010 by Nemesis
There is one point in this I think should be looked at.

It is true that most swedes will not help someone get a job. When I say help. I mean sit for ten minutes at a computer with someone to show them were to find jobs on online sites, such as arbetsförmedligen.

In my case I have had three Swedish friends point me to work through there contacts. I have also had two friends from SFI point me towards work.

In my case I have always had a large social circle, so it is a bit easier for me in Sweden. However someone who is not used to dealing with different cultures or people outside there own tight circle is going to have real problems in Sweden.

In Sweden everything is about contacts. If you have no contacts in Sweden, getting a job is close to impossible. You have to be very determined, organised and directed to get a job in Sweden without contacts.

Also in Sweden there is the issue of blatant ignorance on the part of Swedish personal managers. If a person does not get a post, they do not even send an email or letter telling them they have not got it. Most CV's are sent and no reply or acknowledgement of any kind is recieved. On that issue Swedes need to be taken to task.

Also in Sweden there is way to much union influence that keeps out good, experienced and qualified workers. They put up deliberate barriers to stop other EU workers getting jobs in Sweden, let alone immigrants from outside the EU.

The other thing that needs to change in Swedish, is that Sweden needs a minimum wage. There is a serious level of abuse of immigrants and young people in Sweden by employers. Thats nees to be stopped by a minimum wage that is enforced by law.
21:33 September 27, 2010 by ISayWhatPeopleThink
Nemisis: Therin lies the real issue. Employers don't care about what really makes a good employee (previous experience, education and merit). Instead, applicants get chosen by who they are, how they look, and who they know.

...and yet people scratch their heads and wonder why things never run right around here.

Jobs should go to those that are best qualified to take it. Regardless of their last name, regardless of how their hair is cut or colored, regardless if they put sugar and milk in their coffee....etc. Other countries understand this simple concept; yet Sweden needs their hand held and has to be taught it from scratch.

And while we're at it, we also need to teach them about customer service and human resource departments - they lack that in the workplace too.
22:45 September 27, 2010 by MarkinBoston
This person is a former American? Let me be the first American to apologize to Sweden. Someone didn't help her? Classic entitlement attitude. Instead of finding a way to mix with Swedes and giving them a reason to like her, she sits at home in passive-agressive anger. At least we're not stuck with her any more - we have enough unpleasant, selfish people in the States.

The Sweden Democrats won because a certain number of Swedish people agree with them. It's called democracy - a difficult idea for some to grasp. As far as I can see, they like Sweden and want it to remain Swedish. Is that a bad thing? Mexicans in America can be proud to be Mexican, but Swedes in Sweden are labeled racist for the same attitude?

If Ms Olofsson doesn't like the Swedish way of life, I'd recommend that she leave Sweden and spare herself the bother. I would, if I wasn't afraid that she's come back to America. Better Sweden keep her kind - we're already over-run with them.
23:09 September 27, 2010 by Frobobbles
I do not think the problem with integration is about overweight women.
23:33 September 27, 2010 by Swedesmith
When I came to Sweden, I did not have a Swedish last name nor did I speak the language well. However, I did not wait around for someone to just hand me a paycheck. I interviewed (bulls---ed) my way into a job with the moving company that moved us in. It was not in my field and the pay was not what I had been used to, but it was a foot in the door. I did not think the Swedes racist for not handing me a job on a silver platter. I was an unknown entity and had to prove myself.
23:58 September 27, 2010 by Sam1
This Lady is expression real true feelings, Racism is adopted by the narrow minded and it harms them more because they carry it in their heart.. You see you were opposed by some racist right here!! by Boby for example who thinks he owns Sweden or any other idiot who thinks the same...Bad news to you who think who owns Sweden you own nothing.

And for those cold idiots who marry and divorce and hardly have friends, ending up in depression you need us, we bring joy to you life you cold robots..you eat at our restaurants, and laugh at our comedies and feel you are way back behind with your robotic nature that must be mixed and changed and cultured.

You learn humor from us, you learn lots of culture from us foriegners, and YES we learn from you a lot. But a word for those racist, you might find yourself working at my company soon or begging the social for bidrag. BECAUSE RACISM IS NEGATIVE AND LOW..and low people are never high!!! and always end up down in society.
01:03 September 28, 2010 by Buccaneer
Cheer up guys and see the big picture, for the very first time after WW11 the World will see Sweden for what it really is. Dont get me wrong I like living in Sweden, I like the clean air, I like the Swedish women but some facts have to be made clear.

I travel alot and when people find out I live in Sweden they smile and tell me how nice it must be to live in Sweden. Well, all that will be put to rest. Sweden is just like any other society with good, bad and hatefull people.

So, when next am abroad and I get asked how nice it is in sweden, I would smile and say as nice as a society were bigots with openly hatefully intentions are elected to office then the people go around saying HOW DID THIS HAPPEN. lol.
02:19 September 28, 2010 by lordsandwich
As an immigrant I will say that it is not the Swedes responsibility to help you (after all you are in their country), it is YOUR responsibility to integrate! They owe us nothing, it is our job to conform and adapt to the country we have chosen to live in. If we don't like it we can always go somewhere else
04:20 September 28, 2010 by ajs42548
The SD party is not racist! I love it when people are called racist because they don't agree with you. The SD party wants to preserve Swedish culture. Why is that racist? Do I have to mention the countries where you are not allowed to even be a different religion than the state religion? Why don't you call them racist? Oh and by the way, exactly what race are immigrants? The SD party has Jews and Muslims as well as many other minorities. How are they racists? Oh right, you don't agree with them.
04:48 September 28, 2010 by Slavadil
Jesus, your self-centered. Believe it or not, society is not required to hold your hand through life and give you everything you want. Your an adult, stop blaming the SD for your failure to properly look out for yourself!!
05:30 September 28, 2010 by iddqd
you can demand not to be hated

but you cannot seriously demand to be loved

did anyone here hate you? - i doubt so.
05:39 September 28, 2010 by Biorealist
If the 'left' stopped peddling spurious arguments about the alleged 'benefits' of mass immigration and 'multiculturalism' then parties such as the Sweden Democrats wouldn't register any votes at all.

The problem with the pro-immigration lobbyists is that they have no valid arguments to support them, hence they resort to screaming 'racist' or 'Nazi' at anyone who disagrees within them. They ignore the threat to secularity brought about by 'multiculturalism', they ignore the environmental and social problems of continually increasing population density. They ignore that many people simply want their own country to retain its distinct linguistic, national and cultural heritage, as those who resisted the Nazis wanted to do.
09:33 September 28, 2010 by calebian22
Of course it is Sweden's fault. Sweden failed her. Boohoo!

Say hej. Say hej more than once. Invite people for fika. When they hear your American twang and switch to English, continue in Swedish, don't be lazy. (Play on their shame and ask them why they are talking English. Is my Swedish so bad?) Even Swedes get set aside in the CV pile if they don't have any known personal or professional references.

Quit being a woe-is-me-victim. However, it is always easier and lazier to blame someone else for your own failings regarding how to play by the rules.
10:17 September 28, 2010 by Jarvilainennen
It is good Naomi came foward.

What you need to do now is to get a fysical work. Lose that weight, you´re over forty and if you let yorurself go too much, you are at risk of all kinds of nasty joint aches, diabetes and such.

A lot of swedes are a bit thick in the middle. Country at health-risk. You could all lose some.
10:33 September 28, 2010 by Bostonexpat
Naomi--I can tell you never NEVER really had to fight for anything in your life. Has it ever occurred to you that one, this is actually a different culture and two, moving to another country would entail a struggle?

I've experience everything you mentioned with challenges of integrating but it's never crossed my mine to point the finger at Swedes and whine like a spoiled second grader that didn't get picked first for a soccer game...what a baby!

The US is a land of immigrants--how many did you help integrate????
10:51 September 28, 2010 by cogito
One of the best articles theLocal has had in ages. Thank you, Naomi.

Some of the uglier comments above prove your point: Sweden does discriminate against women, foreigners and the overweight.
10:55 September 28, 2010 by bob3000
I arrived here - no Swedish, a girlfriend and a few Swedish contacts - I got myself into classes, studied, talked to people. Studied, practised, practised. Joined a few societies, a gym, a few clubs - all the while practising and studying.

How do you make friends anywhere? You go out, you socialise, you talk to people, you engage them. You meet some you like, who likes you - others not. Move on.

Moving to Sweden is a life choice - regardless of your motivations. You have to commit to that choice, the studying will never end.

Stop whining. Do you expect a social worker to be paid to be your friend? Grow up.

Do not try to make it political. Seriously.

You need to make an effort in integrating and making a life here. Period.
11:00 September 28, 2010 by California Girl 3
As another American immigrant, I sort of kind of get what you are trying to say here, but I have to admit that this statement stopped me cold:

"Where were you when I needed a friend to help me get out of the house and integrate into society? "

Were you seriously expecting a local person (or people) to get you out of the house and help you integrate into society? Seriously? When one is an immigrant, it really and truly is up to that immigrant to get him/herself out of the house and try to integrate into society. I've never had someone do that for me in all of the countries I've immigrated to. Being an immigrant is definitely tough, it can even seriously suck at times, but a lot of the work is just flatly up to the immigrant. That's why some people never really do well as immigrants in another country, while others do much better.

That's not to say that there is no racism, anti-immigrant feeling and prejudice against hiring immigrants here. All of these things do exist (they exist in most other countries as well), and need to be addressed. But I'm really a bit flabbergasted at the idea that an immigrant actually expected everyone to hold her hand throughout the process, up to and apparently including ensuring that she got out of the house.
11:32 September 28, 2010 by Biorealist
***Sweden does discriminate against women, foreigners and the overweight. ***

You could say this about any country in the world. That doesn't mean Sweden should have its culture gradually transformed through importing large numbers of Muslims. It shouldn't allow its welfare system to become overburdened. Nor should it tolerate having the highest level of rape in Europe.
11:38 September 28, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg
“Your apathy” seems to suggest the individual responsibility of each and every person in the community of Sweden.

Everyone does not plead guilty..

Most refugees are here on humanitarian grounds . We have a government of professional politicians who are saddled with the responsibility of taking care of immigration , integration and all the things that the Sweden Democrats - but not only the Sweden Democrats, have been drawing attention to. A need for some institutional changes.Incresaing immigration 200% is no problem per se. Taking care of the new arrivals is more of the problem.


The Sverige Demokrater take up serious issues such as immigration, conserving Swedish culture, Swedish values and the Swedish way of life and then there is their greatest fear :that the Islamization of Sweden is well under way and that the islamization of Sweden is not happening in isolation from the islamization of the rest of the European Union. The gradual and inevitable islamization of the United States and Canada is also a reality. True, Rome was not built in a day.

Islamization started with the birth of Islam, roughly 1,400 years ago. It started with the Islamization of the Hijaz, the birthplace of the prophet of Islam, salallahu alaihi wa salaam and before he passed into glory, it was his wish to rid the Hijaz of Christians : he invited the Negus of Ethiopia to accept Islam, sent emissaries to other nearby world leaders of his time including Iran, to accept Islam. The clarion call is still an on-going movement of islamization of the world – the Muslim version of the Christian Great Commission:


The islamization of Africa could be completed in this century and just a cursory look at the map of Africa will confirm this view. Of course Christian missionaries are frenetically trying to combat this, and in stemming the tide of islamization which is moving faster than the Sahara desert southwards, among the things that they have going for them is the creation of more beer breweries, promoting more pork products and dunia TV.

Racism, in it's various forms – and tribalism, exists, everywhere.

If people want to characterise the Sverige Demokrater as racists, then is it reasonable or unreasonable to conclude that there are less than 5.7% racists in the whole of Sweden?


Conclusion : The Sweden Democrats will not just go away like that. They will get bigger as long as the problems they talk about, remain unsolved.
12:27 September 28, 2010 by wolverine2k
quite true and to the point. I see a lot of people questioning if immigrants are doing all to integrate. I agree that a lot of people like to sit on their ass doing nothing but these are like 5% of the total population. Others are working really hard to get a job and be a part of the Swedish society. Most of the times, as written, merit is not at all considered. Instead names are considered and if you do not fall into the sons category, you are done with.

I had a meeting with the CEO of a well-known Swedish company on some business matters. He was so happy with my proposals that he wanted me to join his company. When I told him that I had already applied for his company before and didn't receive a response, he was a bit ashamed and talked to the concerned HR. The response he got was that they had received my CV but no action had been taken. In the mean time, I had accepted another position.

So I for one have the proof that racial profiling happens in Sweden, merits are not at all the basis for jobs. And all of you who deny it, are basically in a state of denial trying to churn out half-baked truths and live in their imaginary world.
12:39 September 28, 2010 by Roy E
What a naive, self centered, and small minded article. The most impressive thing about it is that it is written so shamelessly.

This is a magnificent display of postmodern character bankruptcy and the dysfunctional sense of entitlement it fosters.
12:52 September 28, 2010 by Keith #5083
There is a fundamental aspect of Swedish society that says "live and let live". It is part of the concept of freedom.

In such a situation immigrants (like me) need to demonstrate if we actually wish to be part of the society, if we do not so demonstrate then what many are calling 'racism' - but is what should more reasonably be called "live and let live" - appears the norm.

Once I demonstrated a desire to be a part of the community, I had no other problems than the one's I would get in any society, whether a church, golf club,peer group, whatever.

The tolerant attitude of Swedes is being misinterpreted as 'apathy'. That really is not fair. I have had a home here for 20+ years and do not find this.Relative strangers have shown empathy and compassion to help in times of need in ways that speak volumes about the kindheartedness of most Swedes.

The rise of SD is a response to the rise of 'fanaticist activism' by some who wish to impose their will on others - as opposed to the live and let live scenario.

It's really no different than being a protestant in Catholic Phillipines, or Christian in Muslim Pakistan, or sufi muslim in a majority shia muslim community.

As #CH states - "tribalism is everywhere".

It has been my experience that there is a definite willingness to accept me into 'the tribe' if I demonstrate a desire to join. Otherwise it's live and let live in Sweden.

Mind you, I live out in the countryside. The stress of city life, as everywhere, may

obscure some of these characteristics.
13:14 September 28, 2010 by PoJo
Her article might not be 100 percent to the point, but it's a personal view of a personal experience and I am sure that there are thousands out there who identify with her. I have been wondering as well during these days at the reason why swedes act so surprised about the results that the sverigedemokraterna achieved in this election. At the end of the day, it was the swedes themselves who voted them, nothing to be surprised about.

There was a douche up here in the comments that tried to be funny and wrote totally wrong Spanish to the author of the article. To these people I say , you should have lived in the cave era.

Anyway, there is something wrong with Swedes. They don't see that if they integrate these immigrants(or professionals) in their society, they will help their country to grow bigger and stronger in the future. There are a lot of people who would come here to work and live, and Sweden has all natural capacities to allow the increase of its population.

As for the contacts, why would I need to beg for a job if I am qualified? I could easily go somewhere else where they appreciate my qualifications and experience theoretically. There are people, though, that have a family here or other ties that make them stay. And believe me, it is true that you are lucky if you receive an answer to your application, even though it shows that you are not the right candidate. Try asking them why, and they will never answer.

So, that's how it goes in Sweden. No problem, I will just not recommend it to anyone in the future, not even for a visit.
14:55 September 28, 2010 by donaswe
Ahahahahahaha! Are you a comic? Or are you a radicl-chic with many petrodollars? You are ridicolous as like as people who think that swedes are racist. The only racism is the intolerance of the communist way of think.
15:50 September 28, 2010 by RobinHood
I don't think the SD's electoral success was down to apathy. I think it had other causes entirely. I wonder how many SD voters asked their politicians -

Where were you:

When we asked for an explanation why the ratio of non-Swedes convicted of rape was so disproportionate?

When not one immigrant parent turned up for the local youth football team parent meeting, and all the Swedish parents did?

When we tried to have a grown up debate about Sweden's capacity to absorb unchecked flows of immigrants?

When not one immigrant child signed up to play for the local innebandy team?

When the Jews of Malmö were hounded from their city by mysterious "youths"?

When bullets were fired through the windows of a daggis in Rosengård? That was before it was burned to the ground by "youths"?

When imams publicly discourage Islamic children taking part in Lucia celebrations?

When the native Swedish residents of Malmö object that their city has lost its Swedish character?

When "youths" burn cars and stone ambulance and fire crews?

When we say it is inappropriate for an immigrant to be parked on a perpetual SFI course?

When immigrants are encouraged by the state to cut themselves off from society and remain in their "ghettos"?

When immigrant parents are allowed to let their children run ferile and take no interest in encouraging them to educate themselves into doctors and engineers.

When Swedes ask every immigrant from every land to celebrate with them the joy of living in this fantastic country, and contribute to it instead of only taking from it?

When it became blindingly obvious that unchecked, uncontrolled immigration, without debate and consultation, would lead to the rise of the SD?

When is seems clear that if something is not done about all of the above, things are only going to get worse?
16:26 September 28, 2010 by crofab
As an American immigrant myself, I have to say this post comes across as quite whiny and reeking of entitlement. She blames everyone for her own inability to integrate, despite the fact that her husband is Swedish! So blame your husband then! Doesn't he have any family, friends, or other support structure here?

"Where were you when I needed someone to speak Swedish to so that I could improve my language skills and attempt to integrate into society better?"

Uh, hello? What about your husband?

That being said, I think there is definitely a big problem of integration in Sweden. I just think this was a very poor way of showing it.
16:36 September 28, 2010 by Querist
Dear Naomi,

There is one current event which served as a catalyst for the relative success of SD at the polls.

I'll take - 'Sweden Democrats Success' - for two-hundred Alex.

Who is Ahmad Akileh?

Thanks for playing.
16:52 September 28, 2010 by asian123
Who is Ahmad Akileh? 23 years old .

he is the guy who killed 80 years old woman at parking place which was reserved to old people in landskrona.
18:30 September 28, 2010 by cleatsketch
Naomi Olafsson isn't Islamic and therefore doesn't follow a creed that is antithetical to Swedish values; she has obviously integrated and it is not people like her who the Swedish Democrats are opposed to.
18:43 September 28, 2010 by veganrockchick
Naomi, I loved this article! Summed up my thoughts exactly.

I am trying to be part of the solution but why are human beings so intolernat of each other in this day and age?!
19:40 September 28, 2010 by Syftfel
Dear Naomi: Your attempt at making a point is fraught with inconsistencies, and platitudes, and can only have come from someone who put Obama in the White House. Quoting Niemöller here is completely out of place, looks like a cheap "out" on your part, and only makes your entire haranx look pathetic. I do not for a minute agree that voter apathy (your term) had anything to do with the election results. Instead, contrary to your own prejudices, Swedes very much voted according to their convictions, because they were exhausted by the overtaxing establishment parties, especially the useless, marxist, social dems, and the utter fiasco that they created in amongst other areas, immigration, not unlike what your favorite BHO is now trying to do in the U.S.. It is my experience, and I'm an immigrant in Sweden too, that Swedes are not adverse to immigrants, or foreign accents, but adverse to offensive behavior, and to freeloaders with no intent to contribute. Your sob story might as well have been fetched from the writings of Valerie Jarret, one of O's henchwomen in DC. Either that, or you've been indoctrinated by a Swedish media who places liberalism and socialism ahead of freedom and and a juste society. Sorry Naomi, but I totally disagree with you.
19:59 September 28, 2010 by flintis
What a load of old codswallop, I'm an immigrant, I have integrated, I have learnt the lingo, I am employed by a Swedish company, over 35% of who's workforce is of immigrant descent.

Doesn't matter if your skin is pink, blue, yellow. brown or any shade if you're willing to make the effort & integrate then the world is your oyster.
20:16 September 28, 2010 by GefleFrequentFlyer
Well said Naomi. The problem isn't the Sweden Democrats, rather, it's the broken immigration policy.
20:19 September 28, 2010 by Buccaneer

''Your attempt at making a point is fraught with inconsistencies, and platitudes, and can only have come from someone who put Obama in the White House''.

You showed your hands too early, a hatefull mind alsways shows itself one way or the other.So you think it was a bad thing for a black man to be in the White house? At list one could see where your love for the SD comes from.

There are lots of good muslims around the world and many more who are out to kill any culture/civilization they come in contact with. That said, history has shown that bigots will always find their boogeyman and the bigots in sweden have found themselves one. However, history has shown that as the likes of SD and their supporters gain power the list of people they want gone from around them will grow. Maybe the next election will be about getting rid of Jews, Africans, Asians, Eastern Europeans and so on. They would always be new targets to add to the list of unwanted.

As for you true immigrants who think the answer to the valid bias going on in Sweden is to pretend you are having level playing field you are under the cloud of Stockholm syndrome, and those of you Swedes who are posting here as immigrants all I have to say is that the only thing worse than a bigot is a one without shame.
21:13 September 28, 2010 by Syftfel
@Buccaneer: I would not normally bother to respond to such gibberish that you are able to insert here. So, because I approve of the Swedish election results, and I'm opposed to BHO's totalitarian, I'm "hateful", I do not like "a black man in the White Hose", I have "love for SD". Pepper this with "bigots", "bias", "without shame", and on and on. But don't you think your fanatises are running away with you a little too far? How did you deduce all of this? Or is any opposition to BHO and the Swedish social dems tantamount to your list of vile invective? Can't we at least agree to disagree?
21:17 September 28, 2010 by Biorealist
@ Robin Hood # 36

Superb rebuttal. I challenge the editors of The Local to publish this as a stand alone article.
21:36 September 28, 2010 by Iraniboy
Words fail me to adore this article :)

I as maybe prospective immigrant (though I haven't decided yet) can say that I have never had problem to find Swedish friends and I have many now but I think it was only my tricks that helped to do so and the majority of people don't have tricks.


You're only repeating what SD says and this article is in response to those who selected SD for its immigration policies not those who voted it for its racist and false propaganda and hatred!!
22:12 September 28, 2010 by Sam1
You see how many people past racist comments to this poor lady, YES the Sweds should help others integrate, and be friends, maybe they learn that there is other cultures on this earth and human beings are all one.

this stuborness and narrow mindedness will take like 2 to 4 decades but those slow head robotic swedes will be extint.

Yes some one should say hej to her, some one should bake a cake some one should visit her on christmas, but SO SO SAD the dumb ROBOTIC neighbours here dont visit their parents what you expect!!! to visit a foriegner, they dont care about their dying mother she dies by herself in a lägenhet somewhere in the north.

Their excuse we are busy, or the kommun should care for her or him..

WHAT YOU EXPECT NAOMI!! people who are cold to their own family can they be warm to any one else??? go socialize in some country where they have some common sense
22:30 September 28, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg
My dear Syftfel,

Yer commie chaser...

Do we clearly hear you talking through your nose, about “freeloaders with no intent to contribute.”?

Are you are talking about a certain well known category which you designate as “immigrant” and not Swede?

Your tone reminds me of a comment in the Dagens Industri, editorial of 27 Sept, 2010 – it's about Ed Miliband and New Labour, and I think that it addresses your type of mindset in this particular instance:

“ Det handlar om att hitta en nypolitik som toner ner en allt mindre relevant klass retorik – och ändå inte glommer bort de grupper som känner sig frammande inför den medelklass-politik som många ser som högerns domänar.”

Please don't ever hesitate to continue this discussion. I am not a redneck.

I don't know about you who were made in the US av A but check this out:

22:53 September 28, 2010 by Brucelee@stockholm.sweden
Wait!, but what is bloody wrong with SD being elected? I don't get you by your paragraph, everyone supposed to vote have voted, the result is based such on a national voting, what do you really want to say? are you applying SD should not be elected in any case?

BTW, the immigrant policy between the won and opposition's are talked about at minimum level during the propaganda, among their other policy differences. Did you notice that?

Immigrant policy did NOT make SD elected and Mona lost, it is economy policy did that!
23:45 September 28, 2010 by travels
Lady, get over yourself. I've been an immigrant to several places and can tell that if you wait for someone to hold your hand and lead you around you are not immigrant material and should seriously think about going back to wherever you came from. On the other hand you feel you have experience racism all your life, wherever you've been; do you realize that there are many people in this world with a similar set of circumstances that don't feel like you do, could be a matter of personality. There are also many others who have experienced true racism and to whom your sob story would sound like a joke. Some people are real victims, some others have a victims' mentality. Maybe what you write has to do with how you feel about yourself.

Also, are you comparing Sweden to Hitler's concentration camps??. Get real!!
01:36 September 29, 2010 by Marc the Texan
It has nothing to do with racism or prejudice. Why should Sweden have to put up with the wholesale importation of foreign problems?.. which are too numerous to list here. Haven't enough indigenous cultures been wiped out on this planet already? The Swedes will be lucky to be speaking Swedish in 50 years. Luckily a minority of Swedes is finally waking up. I'm not Swedish, I'm a foreigner who understands their concerns. Sweden doesn't owe you anything. Stop complaining, pay your own freight and be grateful you are in a society that treats you far better than we Americans treat our own countrymen. Quit trying to turn Sweden into a multicultural hellhole of placeless, cultureless, watered down pablum. You're an immigrant in Sweden, thank your lucky stars and stop biting the hand that feeds you. If you don't like it, then why don't you just move back to the so-called greatest country in the world?
02:16 September 29, 2010 by Biorealist
Cornelius Hamelberg # 50,

I think you should read the UK House of Lords select committee report on the economic impact of immigration. The case for mass immigration is poorly made & the overall fiscall benefits are small.


It is very dependent on the skills of the immigrants themselves, and clearly Sweden has not been discerning enough in this respect.

Further, increasing the diversity of the population reduces the social capital and level of trust. Jason Richwine has an excellent article on this.

"When Robert Putnam came to my class five years ago, he presented some surprising and provocative results. But even more surprising is that his findings, public for at least two years, have generated so little substantive discussion among

policymakers. The challenge that ethnic diversity poses to 21st century communities is significant, and meeting that challenge requires robust public discussion and debate. That discussion should include not just how we deal with the diversity of our current population, but how we can ensure future diversity causes as little harm as possible. Selecting intelligent immigrants is the smart way to begin."

03:17 September 29, 2010 by woolistictdc
Naomi I am in vehement agreement with your sentiments and award you 5 Internets for your candor and moxie. Bravo
05:10 September 29, 2010 by JoeSwede
Naomi I am in complete disagreement with your sentiments. Please learn the true definition of racism.

When you come to a new country you come with the intention of integrating, with the intention of working hard, working from the bottom up, taking any job that is available, sometimes creating your own fortune. You push your kids to integrate. You let your kids know about their past, but definitely let them know that their future is in front of them; theirs to grasp if they work hard. Ohhh wait, that's the American immigrant's dream.

Yours is the Swedish immigrants dream. The governement and the Swedish people lay a red carpet down for you so that you can continue your life on your terms. Connect that satelite dish to your home country, sit back in that subsidized apartment and open a beverage, enjoy a dish from your native country. Life is good. Send me more Kronor so that I can go on vacation abroad. Make that five weeks vacation with free medical care, even if I barely make anything at all. I demand that the Swedish government permanently adjust their economy so that a whole cottage industry is created that caters to new immigrants like myself. How many more years is it before Arabic becomes the second language in Sweden? I'd be offended if Sweden didn't do it. They must be racists if they don't.
05:57 September 29, 2010 by Bork
This should be one someone's blog, not a major news site.

It's not the Swedes responsibility to go out of their way to make immigrants and refugees feel wanted and happy. It's been their country/territory for thousands of years. As others have said, you have to make the extra effort until you get into the flow of things. The rise of the far right has nothing to do with Swedes not being friendly and helpful enough to a ton of newcomers, and everything to do with many of them not coming here for a love of Sweden but rather it being an easy and nice place to escape to, while having little interest or complete disrespect for Sweden/Swedes; the formation of no-go areas/ghettos in the past 10-20 years despite their high tax rates and low income inequality (jobs just aren't there for all the new refugees and poorer unskilled EU immigrants).
07:18 September 29, 2010 by expatjourno
A resentful, accusatory and entitled attitude doesn't win you friends, help you integrate or help you land a job. Nor does seeing racism and prejudice where there isn't any.

Unfortunately, the expectation of prejudice is self-fulfilling. It's up to all of us immigrants to embrace the society we have chosen to live in. My Swedish is terrible but I have experienced nothing but warmth and open doors from Swedish people and Swedish employers. But then, I feel very lucky to be here in this beautiful, civilized country whose values I respect. And I make it clear to people that I feel that way.

Never mind the prejudice you experienced in the U.S. When you convey warmth and openness, people respond. It's the same everywhere, though it may take a little longer here. I have been astonished by the warmth and kindness I have experienced here. You just have to be willing to make the first move and not give up when people are a little nonplussed at first.

As for the Sweden Democrats, many people voted for them specifically because they reject the ethnocentrism of some immigrants who seem to expect Sweden to adapt to THEM. Well, we aren't so into oppressing women here. We aren't so into flagrant displays of religious piety -- religion as flamboyant fashion statement. We are deeply offended by threats of violence against people exercising their right to free speech. And we are appalled at the expense of supporting people who have few employable skills and little or no wish to integrate into society because they think their religion makes them superior.
11:00 September 29, 2010 by cowboykodp
Rape Rates by country:

#1 South Africa: 1.19538 per 1,000 people

#2 Seychelles: 0.788294 per 1,000 people

#3 Australia: 0.777999 per 1,000 people

#4 Montserrat: 0.749384 per 1,000 people

#5 Canada: 0.733089 per 1,000 people

#6 Jamaica: 0.476608 per 1,000 people

#7 Zimbabwe: 0.457775 per 1,000 people

#8 Dominica: 0.34768 per 1,000 people

#9 United States: 0.301318 per 1,000 people

#10 Iceland: 0.246009 per 1,000 people

#11 Papua New Guinea: 0.233544 per 1,000 people

#12 New Zealand: 0.213383 per 1,000 people

#13 United Kingdom: 0.142172 per 1,000 people

#14 Spain: 0.140403 per 1,000 people

#15 France: 0.139442 per 1,000 people

#16 Korea, South: 0.12621 per 1,000 people

#17 Mexico: 0.122981 per 1,000 people

#18 Norway: 0.120836 per 1,000 people

#19 Costa Rica: 0.118277 per 1,000 people

#20 Venezuela: 0.115507 per 1,000 people

#21 Finland: 0.110856 per 1,000 people

#22 Netherlands: 0.100445 per 1,000 people

#23 Denmark: 0.0914948 per 1,000 people

#24 Germany: 0.0909731 per 1,000 people

#25 Bulgaria: 0.0795973 per 1,000 people

To all SD lovers.. IGNORE the above stats.

To all others, use wisely.
11:25 September 29, 2010 by Renwaa
Two things: First off, I am exactly this woman's heritage. Half Mexican-American (mother) and half European heritage (father) with darker features. I have the same educational background. I married a Dane, moved to Denmark, can speak Danish pretty well (although can't write at same level), have "white" looking children who speak both Danish and English.

Every single thing the author writes can be said about Denmark. Danes aren't known to be the most friendly towards foreigners and I come from the US--a non benefit taking country aka "threat to taxpayers". In fact, we had to pay a DKK50,000 "bond" to assure I would NOT be taking any social welfare benefits. I integrated into Danish society, lived amongst Danes and transitioned much faster having a Danish family.

The point is, the homogeneous countries in Scandinavia have a long way to go on welcoming foreigners. Maybe my outspoken confident personality (which is very American) is too overwhelming for passive Danes---don't confuse that for rude or obnoxious either. I'm from Minnesota, land of the Swedes and "Minnesota-nice". My husband agrees and even struggles himself as a Dane who lived abroad in the US and then returned to some hostility to his home country. It was almost threatening to some Danes that he had been an expat!

No one will come to your door and hold your hand and give you anything and told myself that every time I started to feel pouty. Danes who lived OUTSIDE of Denmark are much less uptight and more willing to hire non-Danes. Sweden sounds just about the exact same way from all the postings on these types of topics (why I read Swedish news, who knows, but read The Local every day). The author has to remember she's a first generation immigrant and every first generation struggles. Her children will be better on their job searches and treatment as Swedish citizens raised in Sweden. What she needs to do now is try and apply to American/multinational companies, join American women's groups or int'l women's groups and network from there. My background is logistics, was very good at it in the US and made lots of $$, but until my written Danish is up to par, won't get/don't expect a job anywhere near my skill level in Denmark unless I work for a large multinational company.

Secondly: the Niemöller poem used as some kind of equivalence is really offensive. These are not the same circumstances for immigrants to Sweden. This public reference to it is bad form and could impare a job search. Not smart.
11:50 September 29, 2010 by stenhuggaren
12:06 September 29, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg
More coal to Newcastle:


Thanks. Many thanks for the two links:



You say that “meeting that challenge requires robust public discussion and debate. That discussion should include not just how we deal with the diversity of our current population, but how we can ensure future diversity causes as little harm as possible. Selecting intelligent immigrants is the smart way to begin."

Lots of insight and understanding with the proviso that Sweden is not the UK or the USA for that matter, although it's clear that the British Health service could not run without the input of the foreigner, and nurses from Ghana, nor could the British transport system ( British Rail or the London Bus services – or the London underground ).Ditto with British football even with Rooney as Svennis' “secret weapon” (once upon a time) – not to mention Lewis Hamilton, cricket, and boxing from Frank Bruno MBE and Lennox Lewis CBE, to David Haye and Derek Chisora.

The situation with SD is quite alarming, starting with our patriotic Prime Minister saying of the ultra nationalists “Den som tycker om Sverige röstar inte på Sverigedemokraterna.” (“Those who like Sweden do not vote for the Sweden Democrats “)

Today, the democratically elected Sweden Democrats @5,7% represent an important segment of Swedish opinion and their opinions and arguments must be engaged and not just dispensed with arbitrarily. Understandably, the main political parties have ganged up against the SD and would like to nip the SD in the bud, clip their wings before they get any bigger, in order to avoid this sort of thing:


But if a new election were called today ( SD can now take part in the party leader debates) what would the political landscape look like? Would support for the SD have increased or diminished?

“ They come here to take our jobs and our women”? And the SD's rape statistics are not accurate either.

Yesterday I discussed the SD with one of their opponents ( not the dreadful pedant and boor, the black ignoramus rex americanus from Pears Encyclopedia, who wants to teach everybody, especially me, everything that he is not aware of, when I have other teachers). The anti-SD says that the unemployment figure for Swedes is 8% and for foreigners is now standing at 14% “largely due to racism”. That it's mostly the educated and the intellectual from Afghanistan who come here ( I taught English to a group of Afghan doctors, a decade ago). 60% of Iranians in Sweden have a university education as part of their baggage (of course after the Islamic Revolution in Iran some of the top layers of the bourgeoisie – took flight to where the capital is, to the USA, Germany, France, the UK, ( the financial centre of the world) and to Sweden - in that order. Often with bags of money - the Shah of Iran's money was after all said to be propping up Chase Manhattan Bank)

Many Iraqi engineers in this country, are being underutilized. Similarly doctors from Kenya and elsewhere are being marginalised. Tremendous waste of qualified manpower which would be contributing to making Sweden a better place to live in, at no extra cost to the tax-payer, who has not paid an ore for their education ( There are more Ethiopian doctors in any of the big American cities like Chicago, than in the whole of Ethiopia)

Canada, and now Australia request that immigrants be qualified to meet their manpower requirement needs, whereas here in our Sweden, qualified manpower has difficulties doing the jobs they they are qualified to do. I suppose the Commission will look into that too.

Gunilla Carlson is aware of the problems that Africa has with BRAIN DRAIN. - and this too could be addressed, and not merely for selfish purposes, as there is a brain drain not only from Africa, but also from Sweden, to the US and the UK as Jan Bjorklund must be aware. It's part of “the problematik”:


The anti-SD says that SD people are qualifying for vocational training in “fordonteknik “but not in åldersomsorg which is significantly manned by immigrants. So who is going to take of us and the members of the SD when they get old, and before we all expire?

12:24 September 29, 2010 by hutom
I beg to differ.

I'm female and have a 2 year old. Moreover, I've brown skin, do not have a Swedish last name and do not speak Swedish. Same is true for my husband expect that he is a male.

I'm a post graduate and he is a PhD. We both have jobs where we're highest rate tax payers individually.

I did have some difficulty finding the job initially due to my lack of local language and I had to wait 3 months before getting an offer. But I got a good job and still get calls from others regularly.

I've very firendly colleagues, neighbours and landlord who go out of their way to help us.

From our part, we're taking Swedish courses, though everybody speaks decent English. And my 2 year old is picking Swedish fast in her förskola.

Rise of Swedish Democarts really surprised me but so were my collegues,too. (And here I'm speaking of my tall, white, blonde, indigeneous Nordic collegues).

I feel this is very un-Swedish and think this will just be a passing aberration to this free and fair soceity.
13:33 September 29, 2010 by Puffin
It is a very strange question Naomi Olofsson to ask on an immigrants site why we were not active in stopping SD taking places in Riksdagen

If she knew what she was talking about she would know that foreign nationals do not get to vote in the Parliamentary elections

So perhaps she should be asking her friends and colleagues who are Swedes?
13:40 September 29, 2010 by Mpf
I'm at a loss with this.

It's everyone's fault except hers. She has a Swedish husband which then raises a few more questions:

1. Where was he and what was he doing to help her "fit in"?

2. Sweden bashing isn't the wises of choices when you have moved here of your own free will, married into the culture. If you don't like it, pack your bags and bugger of back to whence you came. Reading some of the posts it does sound like they are glad to be rid of you!

Democracy is a beautiful thing. People can vote for who they like, I don't agree with the SD policies and therefore I didn't vote for them. Freedom of choice, good eh?

I for one think it is weird that the alliances were 3 parties against 4 and now it seems that in order to gain the majority it could be 5 parties against 2! In this case it doesn't matter who you voted for really does it? The all pretty much ended up in power (less the SD!).

I suggest you shut up or ship out.
14:15 September 29, 2010 by Youdee
@Puffin: I wondered the same thing. It like a preacher whining about poor church attendance to those sitting in the pews.

Naomi's situation is almost like moving from Los Angeles to NYC or from northern Wisconsin to Atlanta. To fit in, you gotta reach out.
14:58 September 29, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg
This is the modern day Swedish Saint:


Holland has its Geert Wilders whilst Germany has this guy and his followers:


Is it possible that Sweden could get to this situation:


or this:

15:08 September 29, 2010 by Bork
@cowboykodp: That list you quoted does not include Sweden at all (I checked the original source).

There is another list on Wikipedia based on UN statistics that does include Sweden. It's the 6th highest, with 24.47 per 100,000 (the rates for Canada are shocking btw!) Neighbor Finland is 10.6 (18th highest) and Denmark is 9.3 (21st). Lowest rate for a major developed country is Japan.

15:38 September 29, 2010 by Cornelius Hamelberg
This discussion will probably start in earnest when the next parliamentary session begins.

SD does have its ideological sympathisers outside of Sweden:

16:10 September 29, 2010 by Uncle
RobinHood #36

Excellent one!

I would like to ask Mrs. Olofsson - why her being overweight she shoved into the racism bag?

Why not shoving in the same bag the "some college" back in the US, which may be the reason for the lack in need for her skills? Why not throwing in her careful mustache grooming as the target of SD?

But maybe, just maybe not to assume that "don't write in Swedish" is the reason that Mrs Olofsson was not elected as a bank manager? Does this madame have any proof that her unemployment is the fruit of racism in the swedish minds and not her incompetence, or inability not to eat for an interval longer than 30 minutes?

Where were the swedes indeed, when Madame Olofsson needed to be taken from her bed and carried carefully to a fashionable place of work that would not require any skills?

In the US, btw, her half-fellow Mexicans find the time to trim their bodies in 16 hour work at car washes for minimum wage. Would she compare this to the life in Sweden? Still mexican citizens climb over the fence in millions just to deliver babies on US soil.

The shock of swedes is not that the party was elected, Madame. The shock is that the subtle and PC swedes who are used to bend over at first shrieks "where were you!!!?" are starting to unbend and ask "why am I responsible for the success of people who came to me and not they are responsible for it?". The shock is that swedes decided to make a stand and take a legal, lawful and democratic action to change something.

Such an action is very not typical of swedes and therefore it is bullied and rejected.
17:08 September 29, 2010 by PoJo
@ Uncle

"Does this madame have any proof that her unemployment is the fruit of racism in the swedish minds and not her incompetence, or inability not to eat for an interval longer than 30 minutes?"

Unless you are directly affected by it, the amount of food that this lady eats, does not concern you I believe. It just hurt my eyes when I saw this.
18:07 September 29, 2010 by Uncle

You should see a doctor about them eyes.


"I hate racism. I've been subjected to it all my life. I'm female. I'm overweight"

If it is not my concern, then why shall I be informed of the weight problems of this lady? Or perhaps, I should politely ignore this self-beating demand for pity and compassionate sighs?

In that case, it is as valid as to say that if my comments do not directly affect you, they should not concern you, I believe...
20:51 September 29, 2010 by Keith #5083
I just love living here in Sweden. With all it's "pimples and warts" I have found it a wonderful society. In my area the effort that has been made to assist immigrants from troubled homelands is quite extraordinary. The acceptance of groups of such immigrants highly commendable.

I recognise there is a 'natural reluctance/shyness' by most Swedes at first, but when we make the effort to be a part of the community, acceptance comes with a miriad blessings. A lack of understanding is not rejection and most I have met have been happy to enrich their lives with the knowledge of the methodologies of other cultures when we immigrants have extended the invitation. It helps them comprehend how marvellous Sweden actually is.

The rise of the SD is, in my humble opinion, nothing more than an expression of fear that the values of this society have the potential to be undermined by those who wish to create the kind of society here that they left behind.

I just love Sweden and Swedes. My 'rose tinted glasses' have not faded in 20+ years!
21:51 September 29, 2010 by Social Hypocrisy
Ive been here 6 years now, came with an open mind and good intentions trusting my swedish girlfriends desire that I move here, and not her to the UK.

6 years of good intentions, being polite and patient and following my western standards of living.

I still dont have 1 swedish person who I can call a friend who is not in a relationship with another immigrant.

I have come to the conclusion, that despite their fancy words swedes are not interested in immigrants integrating.

Even a majority of the socialists deep down consider outsiders to be a threat to their way of live, or should I say the benefits and jobs their country provides.

The elections have raised all this to the surface again.

If Sweden needs one thing it is an honest discussion on the merits and flaws of immigration.

The SD will tell you Sweden will sink with more immigration, and the other parties say the complete opposite.

Swedish citizens and immigrants need to know the truth!

If Sweden really does need immigrants, then a large section of the population needs to be educated. Only then will integration take place.


If the SD are right and immigration is just lefty properganda, I for one would like to know so I can stop agrivating the situation here, stop taking from the swedish and return to my own country.

In the same breath all the swedes living in the UK and US should also return home and stop taking jobs, and being a burden to our systems and return home to Sweden.


22:15 September 29, 2010 by Vetinari
82% voter participation is not 'voter apathy'.

If you ask me the issue was that Swedes are tired of being labeled as racist for wanting to change our immigration policy. As SD was the only party who wants to talk about this they received a lot of votes.
22:35 September 29, 2010 by PoJo
@ Uncle,

I don't need any irony from a person that clearly does not understand figurative language.

As for the lady in question, it is not at all your problem how much she eats per hour. Being overweight does not imply that she eats all the time like crazy.

There might also be other factors that cause this condition.

And yes, it is my concern to express my opinion when I see it appropriate to do so
23:42 September 29, 2010 by Biorealist
***Swedish citizens and immigrants need to know the truth!***

Social Hypocrisy,

The truth is that increasing ethnic diversity tends to reduce social capital and community trust. This is exacerbated, if the average traits or culture of the new migrants differ significantly. For instance, there are obvious tensions between Islamic views and a number of features of liberal democracy.

People also tend to be biased towards their own, leading to conflict as Tatu Vanhanen has observed:

"Ethnic conflict seems to be common in all countries of the world where people are divided into separate ethnic groups, that may have a racial, national, linguistic, tribal, religious or caste basis. In this article it is proposed that a significant part of the universality of ethnic conflict can be explained by our evolved predisposition to ethnic nepotism, which can be regarded as an extended form of nepotism."

23:56 September 29, 2010 by Uncle

No, that is right. YOU are going to decide what is appropriate and what is not. YOU can express your opinion, whether, me, the lowly, cannot express an opinion about what the writer of the article decides to reveal...

Guess what, there may be a factor of constant eating also, can't there be? Eh? Are there or are there not people who eat a lot and ergo - are overweight?

Is it justified to compare this to belonging to a certain ethnicity? Hardly.

Should I chew it? Should I be blunt and just say it? The entire point is that people who look like bag of ..ite do not find other reason for their CV being shoved to the bottom, but racism/shovinism and mothersof2childrenhatretism. How is that for an eye opener?

As for about figurative language, as for someone so skilled in it, it is embarassing to lack sense of humour to that extent.
05:38 September 30, 2010 by Garry Jones
Yep, Sweden is for the Swedes!

I've felt quite outside of the working society in many ways.

I came here age 26 with a 10 year successful career in computers behind me. That was 1988 and as a young skillfill professional I was earning £1 000 a week in London. (That was 10 000 SEK a week back then). The Swedish embassy told me they "always needed computer professionals in Sweden.

My first meeting with the job centre here: They didn't understand how someone at 26 had already worked for ten years. Where was my education? Well I did it hands on in London, as a trainee I was shown what to do and learnt from the others. By showing a natural talent I was able to advance whilst I was earning. It was the way it was done. But not here. I was totally out of synch with the Swedish way and nobody here could even explain that to me. The job centre advised me to learn more Swedish and gave me the number to the local welfare office to apply for welfare benefits. I refused and said I'd do any job thinking it would help me learn the language.

So my first job here was cleaning feces and puke from the train toilets as I worked as a train cleaner for my first 18 months. Quite a difference from London and £1000 a week but hey it was a job and I thought well "someone's gotta do it".

After 18 months my Swedish was judged to be on a par with Swedish "gymnasiet" gradutates so I started applying for computer jobs around the country. My CV had no education listed after 16 years old. Two months later and no job interviews I left the trains and went to go back to school and enrolled on a computer course. On the second day the teachers realised they could learn more from me than they could teach me. They kicked me off the course and employed me on a short term contract to do some computer database security work. This happened 4 times on four different courses. Catch 22, they refused to teach me what I already knew and I couldn't get a proper job in computers because I hadn't been to school to learn my Swedish. I logged my future job applications. I applied for 1472 jobs between 1991 and 1998. I was called to 12 interviews. 11 times the job was down to me or a single Swede. On each occasion the Swede was given the job.

I have jumped around from project to project and local jobs with state support through the local job centre and government schemes. I am now 49 and have a contract working with the largest cycling touring company in Scandinavia. Since moving from the UK I have NEVER had a proper permanent job.

Looking back, what I should have done is taken a grant and done a proper uni course and kept my mouth shut about how much I already knew. I could have pretended to study for three years and that would have given me the important bit of paper to prove it.

The phrase I hate the most here "This is the way we do it in Sweden".
08:41 September 30, 2010 by Keith #5083
"the level to which a person's expressions are of worth is dictated by the respectful manner in which they are aired". gg.

What is it with some of you that you need to make personal attacks upon Naomi?

I don't agree with her views, but it is her experience and it is embarrassing to read what some of you write here by way of personal attacks.'Character assassination' does not change the validity of her argument, only the validity of your's is diminished!!!

God, some of you must be very unhappy when you need to project in this manner.
09:04 September 30, 2010 by Uncle

You know what is tiring? The racism pony. Everyone who is less fortunate than Ingvar Kamprad sees it appropriate to sit and cannot find anything more appropriate than to sit and blame ALL swedes in racism and superiority. It sounds ESPECIALLY ridiculous, given that swedes are much more tolerant towards others than any other nation! People say that americans are way more tolerant. These people visited only NYC and LA and never entered one meter into the depth of US or towards the south.

Who is more tolerant than Swedes? In which NON-english speaking country so many english speakers are employed? In Spain? Germany? France? Finland? Belgium? Russia? Where?

Where immigrants can study for free while getting money in these amounts? Which country is so favourable towards parents as Sweden? Actually taking time and highlighting sweden's problems with hatred of parents and hatred of immigrants is like blaming Saudi Arabia in too much tolerance or blaming Sierra Leone in too high standard of living.

It is a waste of time, paper and attention of people. It is pointless. It is idiotic and a person who is doing it should be personally addressed.
09:29 September 30, 2010 by qed16
"Where were you?" Keith,

This was a personal rant, not a logical argument of any sort. There is no other way to address it other than to address the brilliant memoirist herself.

Maybe give it another read.
10:38 September 30, 2010 by PoJo
@ Uncle

It just did not make me laugh. You make your conclusions again deducing that I have no sense of humor. It was a bad joke, you know. Anyway, suit yourself and make your prejudgments the way you want. You don't harm me.

Now again, being overweight does not disqualify you from working. Where I come from, the Swedish fika at the workplace would also be considered as too much, too often.

PS: Don't freak out, my eyes are wide open, I wonder about yours...
12:01 September 30, 2010 by Jes
Naomi , you`ve done what intelligent people do : said what you think and feel .

No wonder all the idiots miss your phyilosophical approach . Like one @ Kalifonia girl , few intellectual dwarfs think that you are talking about yourself . Poor them have no clue that you are talking on behalf that "immigrant " - the one who could fit in one of the many boxes your article paints .

" Did you expect some one to come and get you out of your house - - " someone wonders .

Gosh , why is it so difficult to read such an obvious semantic !

You feel like spelling out word after word that Naomi was speaking figuratevely .
13:37 September 30, 2010 by Keith #5083

It is not what is being said, but the way it is being said. You ask .where were you?".

Well I am where I have been for a decade or so, in a part of Sweden where folks have a little more in the way of manners. Though it does appear to me that a lot of what I regard as 'offensive input' in this 'chatboard' is not actually originating in Sweden.

It seems to me that the essential problem is the 'dream of Scandinavia' versus the reality of Scandinavia. The reality I have seen, though have not been a direct beneficiary of myself, is that 'immigrants' are helped substantially by 'the system'.

Neither the state, nor kommunes for that matter, run 'friendship agencies' or 'dating agencies' or similar social interraction scenarios.Get involved, be willing to show you are ready to contribute to the community - Naomi, have you offered any local schools to go and talk about your experiences of racism before you came to Sweden?

"Live and let live" will apply in Sweden unless and until you show you wish to be energised for the local community.

When I helped at a school 15 years ago, within a week complete strangers were speaking to me, saying hello, etc.etc. My acceptance in the community was almost instantaneous.

#qed16 - that's where I was! Thx 4 asking :)
14:13 September 30, 2010 by Jes
Uncle , you missed again :Hah , what a surprise !!!

Simple : Naomi mentions her body size , her skin colour and her mexican origins as a "reference " to explain why she hates discrimination , prejudice , racism etc.

Surely it cannot be her fault that this place is overcrowded by small thinkers or is it ?

Take a look at this @Keith# 5083 , for example . Does this chap get it ?

If "immigrants are helped by the system" isn´t that the reason why some fools voted for SD ?

I thought it would be clear that Naomi was adressing the silent many , ie 95 % of Swedish voters who did not "say helo etc ect "to someone like her when she went to "Help at school".

Naomi ecos the words of one former leader of the moderate party . He said that while it is obvious that it the entry of a racist party into Swedish politics is an embarrassment , one has to ask what one has has done to open ones door for new members into Swedish society .

Hey hey , before you get too excited , I must make it clear that the gentleman was not talking about openings doors in a literal sense .
14:40 September 30, 2010 by Uncle
Ha Jes...

Really? A figurative speech? Wow, how did I miss it? And I thought it was her personal ranting, but she represents ranting of ALL immigrants? That is a brand new info!!!

In that case the sentence:

" Did you expect some one to come and get you out of your house - -" is completely not valid! Because this is not a figurative speech... People actually mean ONE house and carry ONE person... This sentence could never be applied to all the lazy bastards who get stuck in SFI for 5 years and those who refuse to learn the language...

Oh, and thank you for explaining in connection to WHAT she was mentioning her overweight! I am so clumzy in my reading... Although... let us take a look again...

"I hate racism. I've been subjected to it all my life. I'm female. I'm overweight. My heritage is mixed..."

Ooooh, Jes.... You misread this as usual.... So it was in connection to racism... What a bummer that you look like you look right now. Especially after this passionate post.

Hey, and you know waht else I love? The way immigrants see 0% of their own repsonsibility for SD arrival and the 300,000 voting for them! I just LOVE that there are always swedes to be blamed in everything from crime rates of immigrants to laws to prevent these crimes. Everything is racism. Even the love for McDonlads.


The fact that it was not funny does not mean that

1)You necessarily possess the gift of sense of humour

2)You understood it. Since you assumed that the "figurative speech" was not misunderstood. Only after an explanation you got it.
16:03 September 30, 2010 by Enzooo
I understand what she's trying to say but don't see the direct connection.

yes, it's hard to be an immigrant.

yes, it's different here in so many ways.

but we immigrants are coming to their country, their belief systems (whether social or governmental)

so.... to sort of point the finger in the face (as I interpreted the article as doing) seems counter productive to actually doing anything. those people who hate immigrants or whatever, have their right to do so.

I hope they do it peacefully but in times of economic fears (jobs, bills, housing) of course they're going to pick on the newbies. It's just human nature that's duplicated itself over the many decades and in many countries (look at Arizona with the Mexicans)

I hope the author of the article finds some peace in her heart. It's not the swedes' fault for her discontent and low self esteem. sorry, but that's how i see it. :)
21:16 September 30, 2010 by Jes
Uncle ,

when you write with a rude attitude , then I know that I have a point . Yes madam , it is true that you are clumzy in your reading . Your lack of intellectual depth is noted , but wow , you should make some attempt to improve your analytic engine , now that you have free choaching !

Never say that I didn´t try to help you .

Wise up a notch , and you will hear Naomi speaking for a lot people , including your own mother !

Forget the word immigrant and you will hear Naomi speaking for the homeless people in Uppsala , the sick who have no means to fight försäkringskassan , the big individual who is teased and always accused of being lazy over-eater , that child whose parents come from different races - - -

Naomi could be speaking for that girl who was raped in a school toilet , and got teased and insulted by the very people who would should have helped her . Naomi calling upon all the good -hearted Swedish people , 95 % of us to not allow ourselves to be defeated by EVIL

In short dear miss Uncle , NaomiS story is one about highlighting the plight of VICTIMS of APATHY - ´which also means that hate-infested muppets are not supposed to agree with her .

Pick a side - --
00:46 October 1, 2010 by PoJo
@ Uncle

Man, get over it.

You cannot judge my sense of humor since you don't know me. As a result, feed yourself with what i write here and don't bother to draw speculative conclusions.

The second point was not understandable neither by structure, nor logic.

Have fun!
11:00 October 1, 2010 by Keith #5083

Yep, I can assure you I do and did "get it"

Whilst a desire to have and/or create a perfect society is highly admirable there is a real world also. The constant repetition of negative attitudes only reinforces such attitudes. Alternatively, the "role model examples' methodology, implying you are not a full and traditional Swede if you are not willing to help, seems to me more positive. I cannot recall, in 20 years, ever asking for help and it being refused!

However, I would most respectfully point out that Naomi's main thrust could be applied anywhere. I'm sure it is so in USA (from what I am told by American friends), I know it is now so in UK (but wasn't 50 years ago), it is absolutely the opposite in India (though one is always nervous that it's a sales pitch) whilst in the Phillipines the willingness to help one another was staggeringly obvious.

In Stockholm it seems like Skåne is a foreign country.

Oh, but hey, don't take any notice of me...I suffer from being white, semi bald, over 60, being constantly mistaken for a blue-eyed Swede and looked upon as a total idiot (no doubt Jes would agree) when I can't understand what is mumbled to me, too slim to look succesful, no kids (there's 40% of conversation topics gone) and a foreign wife, no tv by choice (so I miss out on the other 60% of conversation topics), I'm partially deaf and, oh yeah, I'm a damned foreigner.

I still love Sweden and the Swedish people and actually have no profound reason to complain. If there is apathy then it seems to be pretty universal and not exclusive to Sweden.

To stir folk from apathy needs something a little less personalised than a 'gripe list' . As for not saying 'hello'...then move to a genuine Swedish community, like Gustavsfors!
11:55 October 1, 2010 by Uncle

You know what else I love? When people come into a room and start cursing, screaming, being all passionate and when their are told to go back and take their pill, they assume that they had a point.

If rudeness is a sign of admission of a point, it seems that you admitted EVERY post that I ever had. Go back up and look for yourself.

BTW, I love also that you mention rape here, since the stats of this precise crime were one massive reason for SD to arrive to Riksdag. Naomi BLAMES EVERYONE except the actual immigrants.

Swedes are not guilty in anything if they AGREED to accept people in danger who begged to get in here. Sweden WAS THERE when wars started and SAVED these people. Where is Mexico when people are dying in Africa? Sweden provides these people with means to start a new life, free education, free living. Sweden has personal job coaches, shrinks and still it is not enough! They are still apathic apparently.

Immigration in Sweden is taken care of BETTER than anywhere else in the world.

They got tired of bags of stool like whining Naomi here and the excited, standard bearing Jes who is a rep for all the poor little immigrants who apparently kill and rape (STATISTICALLY MORE) only because SWEDES were asking for it.

Everyone is responsible for his own faith. Always. Don't like it here? What is the problem? US loves to get Mexicans. They are the US favourites. The life of Mexicans there is like smooth like butter.

SD is a REACTION to actions. ´They did not appear from nowhere. 6% think that they should STOP being apathic and should do something about all this. Next elections it will be 22% - like in Norway. Or are 1/5 norwegians also nazis?
12:43 October 1, 2010 by bheatrix
As a Swede and friends with foreigners who now live in Sweden I have to say that first off you have a Swedish last name so maybe you know a little bit of our mentality. It takes time for us, but we are hard to be-friend. That is true and I've heard it from many foreigners who have a hard time to understand this.

It's our mentality, if you dislike it. Fine, but you can't change us. What you can change is your attitude.

About not getting a job due to beeing a woman in her 40's, I can't get a job either and I'm white, female and a native Swede. This is the situation right now.
13:13 October 1, 2010 by jackx123
what holland is doing is 100% correct. if you as an immigrant commit a crime you will be deported. go to the middle east and try your luck
13:24 October 1, 2010 by temporary
Well, choosing to have kid after kid instead of maybe attending a Högskola and get an education does not help you as a woman to find a job, don't blame the employers.
13:29 October 1, 2010 by Jes
@Keith#%083 ,

the arguement at hand is not wether apathy is universal or not . Naomi herself shares her experience on discrimination in USA where she comes from .

The other point is that raising complaints against Sweden does not directly translate into hating ( not loving ) Sweden . I wonder if you are aware that it is abnormal to miss something you don´t expect .

You need to relax and first learn more about Sweden before you stray into Mexico .

You obviously don`t know a lot about how the rest of the World works .

Nowhere in Naomis article does she say or imply that she "begged " Sweden to "look after " her . She is in Sweden for the same reasons a lot of Swedes immigrate or live in other countries .

I think that your biggest handkap is "selectivity" . You must try your best to get rid of that one; then you be able to see that immigrants belong to different categories and social levels - which means that not all of them had "were in danger " and had to be "SAVED" by Sweden.

Something else , there is no need for you to get so excited about that 6% .

Remember the FREE PARTY anology I mentioned to you ?

I have a question for you : if there are more than 6% drug addicts in Stockholm , would you suggest that drug abuse in this city should be decriminalized ?

@ Uncle , uncle , uncle !!!!!
14:20 October 1, 2010 by meatpie
Bang on Naomi! You hit the nail on the head,

Though I don't think anything is going to change the fact that Swedes are an insular bunch, who look inwards, not out. I don't think the outrage about SD's election result is genuine either, I think it's just what they think is the right reaction to have.

I think most Swedes resent people not of Sweden and don't want to dirty their hands with them. Too much effort, too much change required on their part.

That's the maddening thing about Sweden. All this high minded liberalism, but underneath they just want everything to be as it's always been.
14:30 October 1, 2010 by tadchem
What surprises me is how quickly your 'opinion' devolved into a litany of your own personal grievances. This isn't about you; it's about everybody else, and the way they feel their needs, wishes, desires, beliefs, etc. have been ignored in the recent past. You obviously are laboring under some preconceptions about what it means to be an SD. Preconceptions are almost invariably wrong. It you would divert a bit more of your attention away from yourself and to those around you, you would find their feelings as expressed in conversations, publications, and the ballot box far less surprising.
15:44 October 1, 2010 by Jes
What`s "the life in Europe" that Naomi does not know about dear Viva Melita ?

I am listening - - - -!
17:38 October 1, 2010 by Mr. Puppy
Sad to see so many comments from lazy right-wingers who constantly blame all their problems in life on lefties and can't refrain for one second from negatively judging others. Yes, right-wingers are lazy, they benefit from all the movements in the past that were radically progressive in their time but which are now considered normal yet feel no obligation to future generations to continue making life more free and better for everyone. Only an idiot would react to conservative islamists by advocating conservative ideals... if you hate gay marriage and women in power and want all families to look the same then why don't you just convert to radical islam since they are fighting for what you are fighting for?
20:19 October 1, 2010 by ajs42548
"I hate racism. I've been subjected to it all my life. I'm female. I'm overweight."

Exactly what race is female or overweight anyway?
20:47 October 1, 2010 by boddhisatva
Yawn, same old rubbish. Nobody helped me, boo hoo. How exactly are Sverige Demokraterna racist? The only seek to restrict levels of immigration to preserve Swedish culture, yet they are predictably branded racist and 'far-right' by the liberal media. I too am an immigrant and I have nothing but respect and gratitude for the way I have been welcomed to Sweden.

"Where were you when I needed someone to speak Swedish to so that I could improve my language skills and attempt to integrate into society better?"

Er...I was out at work, earning money to pay taxes to fund free Swedish lessons at SFI, which incidentally you can actually be paid to attend!! What more do you want Swedes to do? Pop round your house and give you personal one to one coaching in the evenings?

"Did you even try to get to know me, or did you just sit and fika with your Swedish friends?"

Excuse me for going out with my friends instead of you, I'm so sorry.

"Where were you when I needed a friend to help me get out of the house and integrate into society?"

Oh for God's sake stop blaming everyone else and take some responsibility for yourself, if you want to integrate (as with everything else you want in life) then it's up to you to achieve it, stop sitting around whining and get yourself out of the house.

"Where were you when I sent application after application in for a job? Did you give me a job or even offer me a praktikplats when I almost begged for the chance to work for you, or did you see that I was female, over 40, with small children and an immigrant and immediately place my CV to the bottom of the pile, regardless of my merits?"

This is in the country where women have more equality in the workplace than anywhere else and parents also! Did it ever occur to you that Sweden has a very high level of unemployment and perhaps you just weren't the most qualified person for the job? No of course not, rather it must be because you are an immigrant, or a woman, or overweight, or some other chip you have on your shoulder. It's a good job you came to Sweden because otherwise you wouldn't have the excuse of being an immigrant to explain away all the ways life has held you back.

Finally, to compare your situation to the Jews under Hitler (with the misappropriation of that poem) is disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself.
23:03 October 1, 2010 by Keith #5083

Thx 4 the lecture :) As I understood the english written here, the argument at hand was whether Swedes are apathetic. My reference to my various travels was simply a way of illustrating that if Swedes are, then they are not much different from most places.

Earlier in my writings here I have stated that I feel Swedes have,generally, 'a live and let live attitude'.That could be seen as apathy, but could also be interpreted as simply a statement conducive to and representative of a free society. They have also, if you take notice of the country code concerning walking over other people's land, a reasonable respect for the privacy of others. Someone else has written here that Swedes are 'hard to befriend' and I think that is also a fair comment. But once befriended they are astoundingly loyal and helpful.At what point do these characteristics become an expression of apathy as opposed to respect for others?

That's just the 'tribal' thing again that Cornelius mentioned above.

To be honest, I was NOT aware that 'it is abnormal to miss something you don't expect' as you wrote.That's an interesting phrase as it implies an awareness about something of which you are unaware. However, herein lies the rub, this word expect or expectation. It is this I referred to when talking about the 'dream of Scandinavia as opposed to it's reality'. Expectation is the disease that destroys contentment.

Selectivity is only appropriate when used as a means of illustrating a principle, my intention was not to dismiss the reality of 'tribalism' in it's varying forms.

I must also agree with you that I clearly do not understand how the rest of 'your' world works.

However, let me state clearly, that with regards 'racism' and genderism, I have always throughout my life been opposed to both and will continue to be so.

Oh, in case you missed it - I am an immigrant,I recognise I am in a different social category and social level, I had not been 'in danger' nor was I saved by Sweden. I did not marry a Swede.

Love is not a concept of perfection, rather it is the willingness to accept the imperfections,unconditionally, and perhaps by example induce change.
10:50 October 2, 2010 by Jes
#Keith#5083 ,

I admit that I am guilty of confusing you . I should have made it clear that appart from the first paragraph of my comment , the rest of my remarks were directed at one @Uncle.

---and no , I did not miss anything . I saw you describing yourself as an immigrant of a higher class and so on .

It might be you who may have missed to imagine that Naomi could easily belong to the category of immigrants that "have nothing to complain about " . It is possible that this lady has a good life , a secure job , plenty of Swedish friends that say hej ! 13 times a day etcetra etcetra .

Then why is she complaing --------? one may ask

Yeah , I have already mentioned that Naomi could be speaking for a lot of people .

When Bill Gates complains about poverty , and he illustrates the point by talking about his own past life expreriencies , does that mean that he is in financial trouble ?

You should thank God that you have never been subjected to some kind of discrimination . For that reason, among others , you are excused from understanding the wider meanings and effects of sociatory "apathy"

Besides ,if "live and let live attitude " is simply a social norm expected of a "free society" , what is all the present political habaloo about , huh ?

To remind you , it is not immigrants ( those who live outsite the culture of live and le live) that are refusing to shake hands with members of SD that havee clearly been elected by Swedish citizens .

There has got to be something about some behavioral expressions that doesn`t add up, it seems to me .

Think about it !

@doddistsva ,

are you some kind of exotic parrot ? You are very good at repeating what others have said !
11:25 October 2, 2010 by Keith #5083

thx for the....admission, it will serve as an apology.

So, here's my world, the one you refer to as "an immigrant of a higher class and so on".

1. I am an EU citizen, born and bred.

2. I have a Norwegian wife.

3. we have owned property in Sweden for over 20 years.

4. I am denied all the normal facilities in this society

5. When I buy a car in Sweden I have to tell Vagverket it is there responsibility to issue a sammordnings number to me.

6. I am only allowed emergency medical assistance and must pay privately for things like dental care

7. I cannot even have a mobile phone account.

8. I have never had, nor do I wish to have, any financial assistance from the Swedish taxpayers/government/kommune/aid organisations. I have given free assistance to local schools etc.

8. I have no 'wealth'

It just may be that,by now, you are starting to wonder why this is. Well, there exists a law/agreement between Sweden and Norway which means that because I have a Norwegian wife I cannot have a personnummer. I can have 'opphalstilstand' again (if I wish to apply) but not a personnummer.

I am an EU citizen and naturally find it somewhat curious that I am denied my rights of citizenship by a country agreement with a country that is not a full EU member.

Now all the above may simply be an example, highlighted to match Naomi's scenario, and whether this applies to me or not is irrelevant - but it is factual.

So if you care to re-read all that I have written perhaps it makes more sense in the light of this example. Now it may be that 'apathy' could be an explanation for all of this. It may be that obsession with obscure rules could be the explanation.

It may be I have implied that the Swedish Taxpayer's do not owe me an existence so I must create my own......

I guess that must place me in, as you call it, a 'higher class of immigrant''

So, I respectfully ask you, do not talk in condescending ways to me about 'the world', or poverty, or proxy complaints. Behavioural expressions never do add up when subjected to the emotional stresses of fear. Any normal psychology analysis of human behaviour demonstrates this pattern.

For the answer to 'the present hullaboo' question, read my earlier entries. My view is stated there.

And I still love Sweden and Swedish people - love as an expression of affection, as opposed to love as an expression of need which when thwarted or rejected becomes hate.

I really love our discussion :):)
14:37 October 2, 2010 by Jes
Helo @Keith # 5083 !

first , I want say that it was a clarification , not an apology .

Second :

* you are an EU citizen, born and bred

* you are married to Norwegian wife

* you have owned property in Sweden for 20 years

* you have no desire to be helped by the System

To me , this means the following :

** that you have some wealth ( owning property is wealth

** that as a EU citizen , you don´t need to have a P/ number for your social security

** that if you work for free , there is no logical reason for any employer to reject you .

** that you are NOT deniel normal facilities - you just don´t qualify . ( mark the difference !)

*** and finally - that you are not the kind of that immigrant the SD devils are targeting .


- excpet for those people with no known income , every one in Sweden pays for their dental care , unless one is below 21 .

- even KKK , the NAZI and Al khaida claim to be motivated by their LOVE and affection to their wicked beliefs. Love that is paying for in currency of hate , fear and prejudice has another name in my book .

Consider this :

If there were 6333 " born and bred " EU citizens who have Norwegian wives , own property , have no wish for any financial assistence , work in schools for free , create their own means of living etc etc - - but the systen denies them their rights of citizenship by a country in agreement with another country that is full member of EU , those 6333 people would not only find it curious , but will also wonder why some good heads don`t go to work to sort this thinh out.

Naomi and a lot of political observers are doing just that .

If some fools started a party whose only aim is to target EU men like you ----------- and their basic allegation is that you are pets and not real husbands , maybe then, you would expect the people you guys work for without pay to step in and say something in your defence . If not , the word " apathy " may pop up in your vocaburaly.

Right ?
16:21 October 2, 2010 by Keith #5083

my apologies for thinking it was an apology :)

The case in question has no income and other than that property which would accrue in the even of a divorce, no assets.

He does not receive social security/sickness/unemployment benefits from any source nor does he enjoy a private pension. It is possible the person qualifies for a partial pension from his country of origin, but, guess what, he has to have a personummer here in Sweden to be able to claim it. Catch 22.

He does not see why Swedish taxpayers should support him!

Because, therefore, he does not have paid employment but does have a Norwegian wife - and does not claim any benefits from the Swedish State - he is denied a personummer.He is so because he has a Norwegian wife is the official reason stated on numerous occasions. Therefore, by your definition, he does not qualify because he has a Norwegian wife and the Swedish State, an EU country, has an agreement with a non-EU country that an EU citizen married to a non-EU citizen of the latter country shall be denied a personummer.

The question under discussion is apathy within Swedish society. It is illustrated by inconveniences or denials of 'the hand of friendship' in Swedish society. My whole point with the above case is that the person in question has not been denied friendship, acceptance and help from the 'ordinary' Swedish society. That the 'State' has agreements and rules is quite one thing, however Naomi illustrated her justification of an argument about apathy with examples (hypothetical or otherwise) that are not the reality in the above case.

Maybe SD don't target the person because, in theory, that person does not actually exist within the system for if you have no personummer you are invisible in this society.

Actually, now you illuminate it, I suppose it's a form of state racism, hahahahahaha
17:03 October 2, 2010 by Marley420
Thank You! Coming from the U.S. with 12 years experience in engineering, I was treated like trash. I ended up in Norway just to find work. Yes, my wife and daughter are Swedish. And yes, they still live in Sweden. But my wife experienced racism just because her hair is black.
18:03 October 2, 2010 by Argentina84
"If "immigrants are helped by the system" isn´t that the reason why some fools voted for SD?"

That was THE reason. Selfish, very selfish!
19:17 October 2, 2010 by Jes
@Keith#5083 ,

I have read your comment 4 times . Its rather a tough one to sort out .

one of us is confused and its not me . Just take a look at these two contradicting statements :

1)"I am an EU citizen and naturally find it somewhat curious that I am denied my rights of citizenship by a country agreement with a country that is not a full EU member.

2)"He does not see why Swedish taxpayers should support him !"

Keith Sir , the Swedish taxpayers are the owners of the government that makes and enforces laws . You , therefore , cannot complain that the system has denied you rights and the same time claim that you don´t need any support .

You are either satisfied with the Swedish legal , idiological and social policies or you are not . You cannot accuse the state of taking away your rights and then turn around and accuse Naomi of exposing her lack of love and affection towards the same state

Its like saying that you own property but have no valuable assets . It makes no sense at all !

Another interesting remark from you is this :

"Maybe SD don't target the person because, in theory, that person does not actually exist within the system for if you have no personummer you are invisible in this society. Actually, now you illuminate it, I suppose it's a form of state racism"

Keith , if you are unhappy with the fact that you have been denied all these things you mention , you , naturally , are of the opinion that Sweden is wrong and you are right , okay ?

If/ and/ because Sweden is wrong , some of your rights have beeb trumpled upon or taken away from you , yes ?

In that case then, you are a victim of state injustice . This may mean that whenever and whereever a case of INJUSTICE or UNJUST state policies makes it into the headlines , I expect to see you on the other side of the argument , no ?

I am saying that if you meet Naomi is USA , and she is out there talking about Sweden , I see you repeating this story how you , Keith 5083 , a full citizen of EU , a man with property and a Swedish wife , the one who does not need any finacial assistence from the systen was denied rights and treated like you didn´t exist .

In other words , the love you have for Sweden does not make the fact that you are reminded that you are not a Swede does not just go away , Each time yo buy a car , you are reminded tthat you are an outsider . Should you break a finger fishing , you will know what are not when you go to akutmottagningen

Ironic , isn´t it !!!

Anyway , the good news for you is that some SD architect names UNCLE has put the likes of you on his list of "good immigrants " under his codename "western immigrants "

PS : the wonderful creator of this latest puzzle failed to solve it himself- may I say hahahahaha ?
20:03 October 2, 2010 by mikewhite
@Garry Jones:

One can only ask, why leave London ?!

And where is your property portfolio …
21:21 October 2, 2010 by Keith #5083

Most respectfully, I see no contradiction between your items 1 & 2, if you define support as financial. If you define it as 'normal rights of citizenship', then perhaps your point is valid.

Hitting the headlines is somewhat precarious for the individual concerned, is it not? He is advised that, technically speaking, his presence in Sweden is, shall we say, difficult.

He can quite see that you would feel he would labour the point about 'unjust treatment' whenever he was involved in discussion. However, his attitude is that state rules do not obscure the beauty of this society nor the almost shy friendliness of it's people. In fact this is the first time he has allowed any 'public' statement' of the case. This because he felt that some of Naomi's points were not the experience of Swedish people that he had.

The individual did not mean to imply that he did not need (as opposed to desire) financial assistance from the system.He did, however, feel that it was not realistic to expect Swedish taxpayers to fund his lifestyle, which clearly is required to be a fairly modest one.

Obs: you keep stating he has property. He wishes to remind you that this is only applicable in the event of a divorce. Since he has been married for over 20 years and is still in love with his wife that is unlikely. Had it been likely that a change of financial status was more important than the expression of who he is in loving his wife,it would be unlikely that he would remain in Sweden under these conditions. Wouldn't you agree ?

errata: you state in entry 109 " a man with property and a Swedish wife" The wife is Norwegian. .

Despite the constant reminders of 'not being a Swede' as you put it, it has not prevented Swedes from extending compassionate, practical and well-intentioned help on the rare occasions when it has been required or extending the hand o friendship.. Indeed, there are some kommune Health Services in this land that when instructed by government not to treat 'unauthorised persons' who were sick, responded by saying 'we treat first, argue afterwards'. That hardly sounds apathetic to me.

Yes, it is ironic. The greater irony is that he regularly and happily defends a society,Sweden, that he has found in most scenarios to be a good society. SD is no more than a 'hiccup of fear' by some in a society that, when aroused fully, will see an end to it.

Sometimes, as a nobel prizewinner in mathematics stated, life is only understandable through the equations of love. :) Now that's a real irony, huh? hehehehe
01:01 October 3, 2010 by Artificial Intelligence
Wow...I'm actually dazed to read about this Uncle Individual being a lady!....Like seriously? Mehn lady, you got to take it easy at the way you express your hate on this forum. If care is not taken, you gonna age too fast....thats if wrinlkles have not taken the better part of your :-( My advice to you, quit the hate, and you shall leave longer.
11:08 October 3, 2010 by Jes
Goog morning Keith 5083 !

You words could mean a lot if the leadership of Sweden agreed with you . As we sit here exchanging thoughts and opinions , all the largests political parties are working day and night to try and find out what has gone wrong with what you call

"the beauty of this society nor the almost shy friendliness of it's people "

I am guessing that they are not involved in correcting something that is not broken. If anything , I would rather ague that what happened under the elections has actually done a lot in obsecuring the beauty of this society . Naomi is pointing out that it is a shame that Sweden , of all nations , can no longer say it is different from all these other places where racist parties have something to do with how the state is run .

I almost hear the main parties now saying that society has to do more than be shocked when it finds out that 5.7% if its members suffer from immigrationphobia ( my term).

Regarding financial assistence from the state , SD people would be proud to borrow your phrasing .

Personally , I don`t think that those people who ask for financial assistence are asking the taxpayer to " fund their lifestyle" .

In most cases , one does not qualify for any sort of economic assistence until the authorities have studied and satisfied themselves that the applicant need the money for legitimate reasons .

For example , if you cannot pay rent , you send the bill from your landlord and later send in a bank statement to prove that the monet was used for that bill . The same applies for medical reasons . And before you are even allowed to apply , you `ve got to give a good reason why you have no income . Should you have any valuable property , you are supposed to sell and live on the money before you go asking for help .

As for your own property , I don´t think it is fair for you to blame me for mentioning it several times . If it was not that important or had any relevancy to this discussion , you would have have left it out of your already impressive "CV"

Hehehe , huh !!??

that mathematician added 2 plus 2 and got a 6 .

One SD young bitch said that immigrants should be placed on a wall , shot in the head , and sent back where they come from by post . Asked why - she said " - - because I LOVE my country" !!
11:53 October 3, 2010 by Keith #5083

Aha, now you are educating me, really. Seriously. There are clear differences between the theory (or maybe practice in your area) of economic support and the practice in the areas I have seen. I had not witnessed the scenarios you mention.

Perhaps 'immigrationphobia' is too wide a term don't you think? In my area are Serbs, Kosovans, Vietnamese,a recent influx of youths from a war-torn African state and a considerable ownership of properties by Dutch, German, French, English, even Danish and Norwegian. This is generally accepted within my Swedish community without too much 'discomfort'.

Discomfort does, however, manifest when there is an unwillingness on the part of the 'immigrants' to try and be understood and/or adjust to Swedish standards. Arranged marriages are still the norm with some 'tribes' ( a situation that I actually regard as back-door immigration - does that make me right-wing or normal?)

I have the distinct impression that it is not immigrants, per se, that cause an 'SDT' (Sweden Democrat Trauma - not STD for those with poor eyes!). Rather it is certain 'old country practices/traditions/religions that really cause offence - and that because they breach the 'live and let live' unwritten code in Swedish society. So very often, whether in Sweden or other parts of Scandinavia/Europe one hears the same community echo - 'when you move here you are expected to accept and abide by the standards of this society'. A refusal to do so is a rejection of the society into which you have come, often with considerable help and assistance, and perhaps it is factors like this that cause 'disinterest' amongst Swedes or stir a vocal minority. Don't you think?

In fairness I must observe that many of Naomi's examples of 'unfriendliness or non-cooperation' could just as easily be applied to lonely or aged Swedes in my area.But in dire circumstance, like a really bad winter, even helicopters come with food/water to such as these in isolated areas.

CV's should be an honest statement of facts and relevant information.

It's why the mathematician won the Nobel prize, hehehehe

Love has always, historically, been a justification for excess even when the true meaning of the word was not understood. But, hey, not everyone is a Gandhi or Mandela, huh? Well, not quite yet.....

Hey, have a really good one today y'all.

thx 4 the discussion...
13:09 October 3, 2010 by Jes
Keith ,

now you daving into another kind of water . I can join you down there .

As far as I am concerned you cannot force anybody to behave like you . There is a difference between assimilation and integration .

A swede who lives in Kenya cannot be forced to eat posho or speak kiswahiri - but does not mean that he should not buy land in Kenya or be attended to in hospital if he falls sick .

Arranged marrieges , nasty as the sound , are , unfornately , part of come cultures as homosexuality is in some cultures . Some may find it distasteful , while others think it is normal.

You will also need to learn that India is not a failing nation although it still practices this tradition .

Be informed , though , that in Africa , for example , arranged marrieges are as unpopular and as uncommon as they are in the rest of the World.

So yes , some immigrants "refuse " to either assimilate or integrate . But , lets face it , there are many Swedes who can be described as social outcasts too . The guy who shot the State Minister is a good example how even a good system can have its violent non-comformists

Russia has got plenty of citizens who don`t know what Russias is all about . You find them dead drunk allover ; you find kids that are abandoned on streets on a daily basis .These kids you see being adopted out to Canada and USA are not children of Somali immigrants , but children born by Russian Europeans .

Vist London`s homeless shelters , foster parents homes , drug abuse rehabilitation centres , etc , etc , you will find out that the majority of people who are in these programmes are not immigrants , but real citizens of UK that failed to "accept and abide by the standards of that society"

So your area , is different ? In what way ? These people who refuse to fall in line with " live and let live" magic , they just walk into the Kommun and walk out with a cheque ? Don`t they work, study , register with labour office -arbetsförmedling . they are not sick ,.. nothing ? But they still qualify to get money to "fund their lifestyle" ? Oh dear , where is place ? I know many that would want to move there .

Ahah , if the mathematician won the Nobel prize for his phyilosophical statements , then we should understand why being dicriminated because one is a middle-aged overweight , dark-skinned woman has a bearing on how one looks at the question of racism . Have a nice day too !
18:25 October 3, 2010 by Tiddler
Sweden needs more self serving, sentimental, ignorant, fat and ugly female immigrants, particularly from Sub Saharan Africa.
09:11 October 4, 2010 by Keith #5083

Aye, and there's the rub!

Live and let live permits you to behave as you wish, as long as it is not harmful to others.

The 'SDT' manifests a desire by some to counter the 'import our old ways and force them on this society' attitudes of a minority (stress minority) of activist immigrants whose 'religious' agenda seems more political than anything else.

On my many past visits to India I have noted the weakening of the tradition of arranged marriage.. A process that will continue as the imported caste system further fails to meet secular human rights standards. " part of come cultures" you wrote, well, they have actually been a part of most cultures, even here in Europe (in UK the Married Womens Property Act 1956 finally, finally, allowed women to own their own property). However, some cultures have gone beyond the old traditions. Trying to re-establish an old tradition in a more modern secular society is something of a 'lost cause' and creates friction.

"failed to accept and abide by the standards" seems a rather accusatory statement. Perhaps it would be better and more humane if it were phrased " were unable to accept, for whatever reason, the standards..." The inability of an individual to emotionally cope with the contradictions and hypocrisies of most modern societies, and thereby end up alcoholic or drug addicted in some other way', is their right, is it not? There is the feeling, rightly or wrongly, that immigrants who have been offered a, in many cases, a far better lifestyle than they previously had would have some respect for the society that has so offered to them. There is also the question of 'economic immigration' as opposed to that which occurs due to displacement caused by war, etc.

Your penultimate paragraph will, I am sure, ring a tone of truth with many Swedes throughout the land.

"Live and let live magic", as you call it, could also be labelled 'apathy' could it not? It's all a question of where you stand dictating what you see, huh?

Wow, it's another wonderful monday morning..have a good one :)
12:18 October 4, 2010 by Jes
Keith , here we do again !

I disagree that immigrants have an obligation to do anything more than to respect and abide by the laws that are in place . You must remember that in every nation you go , you will find a Swede who lives there . Swedes that live in the Arab Emirates dont have go to mosques 5 times a day in order to show appliciation for whatever good life the Emirates has offered them. Most of them are there , even in Sudan , for economic reasons

Only a slave owner would say what you are suggesting . Furthermore , respect procreates respect and vice versa.

It`s rather strange of you to suggest that " live and let live permits you to behave as you wish ...." . Are you not the fellow who said that arranged marrieges are not acceptable in Sweden ? Is Sweden not the country that forbids adults to sell or buy sex ? Is drug use legal in Sweden ? How does someone else`s drug addiction or sexuality harm you ?

And no , if " live and let live" mean looking away when a Minister is being stabbed in the middle of a shopping centre , then there is something terribly wrong with this notion.

You can only claim to be "neutral " when it is your favouraite that is winning the fight
17:16 October 4, 2010 by ycover
@ Keith

Regarding "Swedes that live in the Arab Emirates dont have go to mosques 5 times a day in order to show appliciation for whatever good life the Emirates has offered them. Most of them are there , even in Sudan , for economic reasons"

First, people that come to Sweden (immigrants) are not obliged to go to church either, in case you have not noticed that. Thus your comment on religion is completely irrelevant.

And about the latter comment on "Swedes living in Arab countries due to economic reasons". Exactly which are those? Because as far as we can see, Swedish citizens are entitle to a pretty good life here. The only reason I can think of is BUSINESS related reasons. Is hard to believe that Swedes immigrate to Sudan looking for economic support from the government as is the case of immigrants from many middle eastern countries.

I am not defending Swedes nor criticizing immigrants. I am just refuting your statement because it lacks good arguments.
21:08 October 4, 2010 by Jes
@ycover dear ,

you will have to do better than this if you are going to have a go at refuting my statement .

For starters , try to get past pettiness . What I said about going to a mosque was not so much about faith or religion but about showing ( or not showing ) respect to the hosting countries traditions and culture . I was illustrating that even in strict cultural enviroments , its hard to force everybody into comformity . In simpler words , it is not possible for anyone to measure howor if an immigrant respects or does not respect his/ her host nation . Respect is in eyes of the beholder . Sometimes , it results from a respectful action .

The other obvious thing you miss is that business is a means to economics . Whenever and whereever one wins a business deal or a contract , there is always someone else who has lost it .

So yes , Swedes immigrate to Dubai , Japan , China , Africa , Brazil for ecomic reasons . What thet win keeps the home econoic fire burning , regardless of what the situation maybe elsewhere .

For example , Sweden gets a lot of tax from those Swedes who are angaged in the oil Industry in Sudan . It is some of that tax that pays for the good life you and many Swedes live while the Sudanese people are starving .

Its also a convievable scenario that MS Ycover has a nice job in company that sells air.conditioners to the citizens of Dubai - which means that if MS Ycover suffers from some sort of conceptual scotoma , chances are that he will never figure that the man who buys in Dubai who buys an air-conditioner is in fact his economic support.

Good night !
22:17 October 4, 2010 by Keith #5083

Your ability to only quote partially with a view to thereby changing the full meaning of what was said or written is, well, regrettable.

Are you quite certain that I only wrote "" live and let live permits you to behave as you wish ...." and did not qualify this with a moral or ethical statement? Your ministerial stabbing example does not meet the qualifications stated fully in my original sentence, before you conveniently omitted the last section.

So, in case you suffer from intellectual dyslexia I would remind you of the qualifier to the live and let live statement, which was: ".........as long as it is not harmful to others".

I believe that 'forced arranged marriages' are illegal in Sweden. It is, therefore, a question of what constitutes 'force', as this term can have many meanings . I understand that the Swedish government is re.appraising the 'arranged marriage' situation.

I have family who have lived in Saudi and I have personally stayed some time in Oman. When in these places we were required to honour the laws and customs of those countries. Yet you seem to suggest that to require the same of immigrants coming to Sweden is tantamount to 'slave ownership behaviour'. That is very interesting intellectual gymnastics!

However, I would agree with your statement "about showing ( or not showing ) respect to the hosting countries traditions and culture". I believe that is what most Swedes would like to see from that small minority of "activist immigrants" who, it is felt, have abused the hospitality, helpfulness and tolerance of this society. It is this factor, I suggest, that has given rise to the SDT, which is far from an apathetic reaction. The benefit of these extremes is, of course, to stir a debate amongst the 'non-extremists' which hopefully will contribute to a wider understanding and tolerance between all parties concerned.

That, however, is unlikely to happen if clear intentions and statements are misquoted, don't you think?
13:26 October 5, 2010 by Jes
Hej @Keith#50---

I wrote a response to yours : But it does not get in - they say its too long , although it is shorter than what we usually send in here . I have no time to prepare a new "shoter " one . When I do , I will be asking you to not say that I have "intellectual dyslexia "

later then- - -
13:28 October 5, 2010 by Lukas Stockholm
May I ask: what did you do then to integrate? Did you look at other people and said hi, did you ask them out for a fika, or dinner? Did you start a new hobby or activity to meet friends? Did you invite them to meet your family? You cannot expect people to just come to you, you need to actively try to engage yourself as well, and perhaps, as a newcomer, be the more active one in doing so, because most people in their 30s and 40s already have their hands full with their own families, friends, work, school or whatever it might be. I doubt that you failed to find people who could help you integrate because these people were racist. Stop doing the blame game and take reponsibility for your own life and actions, and perhaps feel a little bit grateful to this country where you have been welcomed to come live? I have always been grateful to any of the countries I have been lucky enough to get the chance to live in, and I have also gone out of my way to make friends, meet people, get a job, an education and learn the local culture, customs and language. It's up to you to integrate as much as it is society's responsilibity to provide the tools for that integration. But feeling sorry for yourself and blaming everyone else for your apparent failure to integrate certainly won't help you win friends or get integrated.
14:30 October 5, 2010 by Jes
@Keith# 5083 ,

I assure you that I don`t suffer from any kind of dyslexia .For Gods sake , I sell intellect for a living !


Quoting part of a statement is not the same as changing that statement . I quoted your wonderful phrase in ful ; then ; I responded to what you said to "qualify" what you said .

You insinuated that " live and lel live " permits anyone to do whatever they want , as long as it is not harmful to others . My response was : how does somebody else`s sexuality harm you ?

I suspected that you confuse harmful with lack of respect .

But then , it now good for you that you know about Oman and Saudi Arabia . Once again , I am happy to quote you :

PS , this is the 1st part . the 2nd will follow later
17:09 October 5, 2010 by Keith #5083

Respectfully, I did not insinuate, I stated clearly. It was not an inference, it was not a suggestion, it was - in full - a clear statement. That statement became open to misinterpretation by virtue of the fact that it was not quoted fully. Thus, you were able to apply the 'partial statement' to a set of circumstances (the murder of a person) which conveyed a totally different meaning to that which was clearly intended in the full statement. Furthermore, you have done so on not just one occasion.

"Quoting part of a statement is the same as changing that statement'. Well, you wrote that...agreed you included the word 'not', but I have also taken the same poetic license you claim by only partially quoting your full statement. In doing so I have completely changed your intention.

You then ask a question about a persons's sexuality not being harmful to others in #124. In principle a person's sexuality is not harmful to others unless and until it is manifested, in which case I could make an argument that a Paedophile's sexuality is clearly harmful.

Equally, I did not state categorically that you suffered from intellectual dyslexia. I posed the hypothetical situation 'in case you suffer...".

All of this goes to demonstrate how easily people's actual intentions can be projected in a totally different emphasis depending on the projector's viewpoint.

Which returns us to the topic under discussion and Naomi's views about it, which are projected as subjective. I also have been subjective and tried to show that my experiences in Sweden and with the people of Sweden are not as full of 'apathy' as Naomi seems to have experienced, whether theoretically or in practice.
17:25 October 5, 2010 by Jes
Keith # %083

I quote you again :

" When in these places we were required to honour the laws and customs of those countries."

The above can also be said by a lot of immigrants in Sweden , who you have already accused and convicted of some other "crimes" besides honouring the laws and customs " of Sweden.

On my part , I stated ,very clearly , that nobody , immigrants included , is obligued to do more than hounor laws and customs .

I am a view that respect, love and all those things you guys complain about fall in place or don`t ,depending on the circustancies .

I told you that it is not possible to measure respect . why ? Because it is in the eyes of the beholder .

Here you are giving yourself alot of marks about the way you and yoyr family conduct youselves while in S Arabia and Jordan . But, does it end there ?

If you asked some citizen of Saudi Arabia and Oman - the type that has their own issues that result from ignorence , inferiority/ superiority complexes , lack of self-confidence , joblessness , fear , envy , substance abuse , loniliness , shortage of love etc etc . . yes , if you asked for their opinon on the Swedes or Europeans who live in Oman and S . Arabia , is it likely that they will say beautiful things about you and your family ?.Will the suicide bomber spare you just because you" honour " this and that ?

I suggest that , because they are driven by hatred , they will be as prejudiced as some of you are against your own immigrants . I can bet that if there was any voting in Saudi Arabia , and some idiot started an anti-immigrant party - with only one programme " kick out the infidels who donT respect our customs " . this holy party would win more than 5.7 %. According to SDs disgusting mentality , immigrants are Sweden`s infidels . They just walked out of a national ceremony because one lady dared say that all people are equal !

I totally disagree with your "intellectual" take that it is the actions of immigrants that have given rise to the SDT. One can only reason that way if one thinks that a thief is a direct bi-product of poverty .

SD just fall in the category I have mentioned above i.e , a bunch of nuts with issues. ,For that reason ,confident , well-balanced individuals will not choose to live their lives according to how negative elements around them behave .

I put it to you that almost all Swedes that are old enough to vote have come to know , see , or hear something about "activist immigarnts" that have "abused the hospitality " and so on . Explain to me why 95% of these people did not side with SD ? Over to you . OR as my daugher could put it . OV 2 U
18:28 October 5, 2010 by Keith #5083

I see we have,again, departed from the track to view some more diatribic scenery.I swear, dear Jes, discussing with you is like playing 2 games of chess whilst also making spaghetti, dicing onions and dancing the conga.hehehehe.

Or was this (#126 ) part 2 which awaited publication?

Would a paedophile's manifested sexuality be harmful to others or not? You raised the issue about sexuality, I would like your answer please.

What's with the 'giving yourself a lot of marks" statement? My ego was not involved in simply illustrating a comparison of cultural norms between Sweden, Saudi and Oman (or Jordan as you mention, but I have never mentioned Jordan).

The fact that, taking your figure, 95% of people did not side with SD is either Naomi's point about apathy or it could also be a statement of tolerance.

The 'take' on the 'rise of SD' is not intellectual. It is emotional. It is cause and effect. You cannot on the one hand argue about an apathetic society without recognising that when SDT occurs something must have triggered that reaction.
18:37 October 5, 2010 by Jes
"...agreed you included the word 'not', but I have also taken the same poetic license you claim by only partially quoting your full statement. In doing so I have completely changed your intention."

Come on buddy ! Removing a word from a sentence and quoting the whole sentence , minus the following the appendage is hardly the same thing . In fact , a quote cannot retain its definition if some words are either added to or removed from it .

You you have to done is to paraphrase my statement . I have not such a thing !

Back on Naomi and apathy . She speaks for a lot of people . You speak for SD and some people who may have a few complex issues . Not every immigrant in Sweden is as blessed as you are . Right now , all good people are being asked to shun racists , racism and all its causins . That would not be necessary if there was no detection of public apathy .

Funny enough , the so called leader of Swedish nationalism , showed what respect means when he walked out of a national ceremony . Tomorrow , he will appear here under a cute name to blast that immigrant who does not honour and respect Swedish customs .

I feel sorry for his fine costume though . It wishes it was on a skunk , yes ?
21:27 October 5, 2010 by Keith #5083

"...a quote cannot retain its definition if some words are either added to or removed from it ", you wrote.

Exactly my point! A comma is not a grammatical tool for an appendage - well not when I went to school it wasn't

"Right now , all good people are being asked to shun racists , racism and all its causins . That would not be necessary if there was no detection of public apathy "

Interesting and optimistic conclusion. It could be just as equally necessary if you substitute 'sympathy' for 'apathy', not too hard for you to do as you are quite good at re-arranging words.....hehehehe.

So now I speak for SD simply because I challenge some of your statements and interpretations. More intellectual gymnastics!

You really have to do better than this...oh, and lest you forgot or on one of your Jordanian trips became confused, I do require/request an answer to the 'harmful sexuality' issue you brought into this discussion.

Do you think we should apply to our benefactors, The Local (bless 'em) for a permanent column here - we seem to be having such fun slinging linguistics about.
01:32 October 6, 2010 by Roga Roga
just do like me,I have lived in sweden for seven years.black man from africa with three matsres degree in sweden,finance, marketing managemnet and development studies from top unis in sweden. speak englksih french and swedish fluently but cant get a job even in africa.gone to interviews with Swedish publiic instituions but a Swede was always retained for the job.guess what? i voted for the sd coz they have the balls to adress our plight in sweden and i have last week tone my swedish passport to return back home. its reall for all of you who done believe.Sweden is worse than the kkk.I Like jimmy coz they are man enoguh to say it to my face but the Alliansen are a pucnh of red necks hiding under the banner of democary and human rights. peace and love
09:50 October 6, 2010 by Jes
Hej Keith !

Had I the space , I would quote the whole comment in order to avoid you complaining that I have removed a komma here , or changed a word there I will only quote a few lines to start answering the question that so bothers you : sex

Here , you wrote :

" Discomfort does, however, manifest when there is an unwillingness on the part of the 'immigrants' to try and be understood and/or adjust to Swedish standards. Arranged marriages are still the norm with some 'tribes' ( a situation that I actually regard as back-door immigration - does that make me right-wing or normal?) "

" I have the distinct impression that it is not immigrants, per se, that cause an 'SDT' (Sweden Democrat Trauma - not STD for those with poor eyes!). Rather it is certain 'old country practices/traditions/religions that really cause offence - and that because they breach the 'live and let live' unwritten code in Swedish society." "

"--- 'when you move here you are expected to accept and abide by the standards of this society'.""


" A refusal to do so is a rejection of the society into which you have come, often with considerable help and assistance, and perhaps it is factors like this that cause 'disinterest' amongst Swedes or stir a vocal minority."

" Don't you think? " you asked me

I wanted to know what this "unwritten code" entails

Your answer was that it permits everyone to do what they want aslong as it does not HARM someone else .

I sarcastically wanted to know how these things that "tribes" do HARM you . I was looking for an explanation why an immigrant that prefers an arranged marriage is excluded from the "live and let live " protective zone.

You responded by asking me whether I think that paedophilia does not harm the victim ( a child )

I agreed that paodophilia harms children , that it is illegal .

My view is still that arranged marriage is not the same as paedophilia ; that it is disgusting to some people as homosexuality is to others .

I also believe that it is not an immigrants job to make the Swedes not feel any "discomfort" .

There fore ,unless you think that you OWN me , you never tell me that if I don`t behave just you , live by your set of standards , the only option you have is to insult or hate me.
10:58 October 6, 2010 by Keith #5083

So, reverting to the original reason why YOU brought the issue of sexuality into this discussion - #124 - in response to my 'live and let live as long as it is not harmful to others" statement. I see in #131 you now agree.

I quote you, quoting me "....do what they want as long as it does not HARM someone else". You then proceed to personalise the issue of arranged marriage and ask how does this harm ME (YOU you wrote).

The issue of arranged marriage all hinges on the definition of force. There is physical force. There is psycholigical force. There is emotional force. Allow me to illustrate with a possibly hypothetical example:

A young man has lived in Sweden for 16 years - over 60% of his life. He is now a Swedish citizen and has 'courted' the same Swedish girl/woman for 5 years. He is given an ultimatum by his parents who refuse to allow him to marry the Swedish girl because she is either not from the 'old country', or is not of the right religion, or simply because the adult son must obey the father. The son is forced to finish with the girl, is for many months suicidal and refuses any attempt to 'fix him up at the meat market parade of parent approved girls'. If he continues to refuse he will be cast out from all the family and possibly cast out from the 'family religion'.

Now, maestro, what is force?

Have not the actions of the parents been harmful to the adult son who is a Swedish citizen in more senses than just the legal definition?

Is this the Swedish way, honouring modern Swedish culture?

In what way is it harmful? Check the UK TV programme about it - about the 'marrying cousins' tradition and how such an unbelievably high percentage of children born in such marriages are disabled in some way. A tradition that is harmful to the unborn children

FYI (ask your daughter to interpret) the only options I have are not to insult or hate you, clearly these are the only options you understand. I can take a Gandhi/Mandela route and try to love you despite yourself - or I can even take a route of ignoring you, being indifferent to you - or what others might call 'demonstrating apathy towards you'. The 95% you are so fond of quoting might just,conceivably, be demonstrating indifference to the 'supposed problem' as their response to the indifference shown to the Swedish culture by some (not all) immigrants.

Oh, and you really must stop with all this 'unless you think you own me' stuff. I am not a Saudi Prince or an Iranian government minister. I can absolutely think of no reason, based on our conversation, why I should even wish to own a book you have written let alone own you! ce.

#130 Roga Roga

Helpful hint for those holder numerous masters degrees from Swedish Universities...

Your PC programme usually has a spell checker, as does this chatboard.
13:07 October 6, 2010 by Jes
Keith sir , your hypothetical can be used to hit you ,

you are talking about that individual immigrant that is "forced " by his family to marry some of there choice , right ?

And that is the reason you think that immigrants are guilty of causing their own rejection into the "live and let live" club of yours ?

Will it be okay if the family of this 16 year boy though that the Swedish police is a "rapist" organisation just because some police officers new that one of them had raped several people and they kept quiet ?

If you vist Thailand you will see a lot of European men out there praying on minors for sex . If you vist the prisons in the Philipines , you will notice that 99% convicted paedophiles are white males from Europe , particularly from Scandanevian countries . Are you going to accept to be called a paedophile just because you happned to belong to the same race as those wicked bastards ? I think not !

Keith , before you advise Roga Roga to use a spell checker , you better think about how you use your works even when their spelling is spot on.

"Arrangement" does not always involve "force" ., as discpline does not mean punishment . Believe it or not , it is not always such a crazy idea for a family to play a part on what kind of wife or husband one of their family members brings home. Personally , I see no reason to consider this type of "arrangement " hurtful to any society .

I also think that your hypoothetical example renders the word "force" a bit subjective . Here is why :

Some sections of social thinking could say that a man who leaves his country to live in his wifes home is an object of a "forced " relationship . Others will call it an arranged "situation"

Only those who are into this kind of a marriage can know why they are doing what they are doing.

If you want to talk about psychological "force" we can do that , no problem .
18:33 October 6, 2010 by Keith #5083

Yes, and before you seek to admonish me about words and their useage you could do well to follow your own advice :)

"To discipline thus means to instruct a person to follow a particular code of conduct or order." To seek to apply the terminology discipline,in the case in question, simply re-inforces my point.

A mutually agreed arranged marriage, without any 'force' is, of course, not objectionable. However, I should be pleased, as perhaps will other readers, for you to elaborate on why in the case mentioned you do not consider the actions of the parents to be 'forceful'?

I would really like to know how it is you insinuate I am racist yet these parents of a 25 year old Swedish citizen (who was brought to this country at age 10) fail to accept the girl of his 5 year choice, who is Swedish, and seek to arrange a marriage with a non-Swedish citizen against his wishes. Is the Swedish girl not good enough for them? Is there something wrong with her colour, her religion, her culture? Are the parents, by this action, refusing to integrate or even worse, is it actually they that are racist and not us?
14:48 October 8, 2010 by BCIS
I lived in Sweden for about 2 years in the late 90's with my Swedish boyfriend (who is now my Swedish husband). I'm American, Black, and Female. Before I came to Stockholm, I knew there would be challenges. I didn't speak the language, I didn't have any connections of my own, but I didn't blame the Swedes. Now, granted, the Swedes tend to be a cold bunch at first, no doubt, but to expect people to integrate you is just silly and lazy (which might be why she's overweight). You have to get out, you have to meet people. When I lived there, I had few Swedish friends, but I had quite a few Expat friends, and I hung out with them. I had a social life and I got out. I think she's making excuses. I suggest this woman look in the mirror to see what she can do and could have done to integrate herself better before blaming the Swedes. Can hardly speak and can't write Swedish and she has a Swedish husband? There's no excuse for it, and it goes back to what I stated earlier, this woman is at minimum "somewhat lazy". She should be studying the language every single day. Since apparently she doesn't have a job, she has plenty of time to learn. Does she know that there is a Stockholm Expat group where she can meet other people (both Swedes and foreigners)? Has she checked out the Amerikanska website to hook up with other people like her, where she might meet friends to help her get into the flow?

Currently, I'm residing in Saudi Arabia with my Swedish husband. And, guess what, I had to do the same things when I got here as I did when I moved to Sweden (and there is a large Western expat community here) to meet friends. That means getting up off the couch and getting out of the house. Gawd, those kids are a prime way to meet other mothers. Take initiative. So Naomi I suggest you read this article that I wrote for Expat Arrivals on how to transition into a new culture. I wrote it for people moving to Saudi Arabia, but it applies to any new cultural situation. You can check it out here, should you be inclined to learn and grow from your Expat (not immigrant) experience. http://www.expatarrivals.com/saudi-arabia/women-in-saudi-arabia

I wish Naomi luck since without the initiative to get out on her own, she's going to need it.
12:36 October 9, 2010 by Jes
Keith ,

my response is that is a parents forces his son or daughter to marry someone their son or daugher deos not want to get marriade to , that is a "FORCED "marriage . There are immigrant parents from some cultures who are guilty of this practice . I condemn them.

If a parent REFUSES his son or daughter to marry some that their son or daughter has chosen , this is action is as wrong as the other one . There are Swedish parents who are guilty of this practice too. I expect you to condem them too.

In other words , offensive parental interference is not only practiced by immigrants .

I vivid example is that President Obamas mother was shunned by society when she got married an immigrant from Africa .

The other point I want you to grasp is that "arrangenged " is not synonymous with "forced ".

"Arranged" could mean making contacts for..,counceling , guiding , ect .

Keith , you must try to understand that these some traditions are not as harmful as they look when one takes to trouble to study them objectively , otherwise , the only tool that you are going to use to judge them is "prejudice"

I rest knowing that some of these things are supposed to be appreciated by those who practice them .

Take for example the new "tradition" of on line dating ; how many people in Sweden see it as bizarre for someone to put their photo on a magazine in order to find a future husband or a wife ? Would you blame a man from Oman if he found it strange that there are people in the "west" who use strangers ,( dating agents) to find them wives / husbands for a fee ?

The point is if it normal for Swedes to "arrange" their love life this way , it is probably normal for some immigrants to do the same within their families . live and let live , remember ?

Finally , this : "To discipline thus means to instruct a person to follow a particular code of conduct or order."

Grrr ! does this means that those that are instructing an immigrant to follow particular swedish "conducts or order" are wrong OR do we have a special group of humans that are created to "instruct " and instill discipline in the rest of mankind without question ?

Your turn to elaborate .
09:39 October 11, 2010 by margiespangler
Despite some impassioned exaggerations and contradictions (including implying that race is not a factor in the opening paragraph only to later speak about suffering from prejudice herself in relation to her own mixed heritage), Naomi Olofsson's words bring up some very intriguing questions:

Firstly, in Sweden (or any nation for that matter), do you truly become a citizen (in terms of how you view yourself and how others view you) once you marry a national and gain citizenship or should you be expected to?

Secondly, if you see citizens' apathy with regards to issues of immigration, integration, and racism as a persistent problem throughout history (as Olofsson seems to do when she relates Sweden's situation today to Martin Niemöller's verse), then shouldn't the question be why is this the case and to what extent is the integration of immigrants within a nation the responsibility of the nation itself or the citizens of a nation?

In response to Olofsson's question "where were you?":

Perhaps one of the implications in the case of Sweden, with its reasonably positive global reputation as a model welfare state and relatively high taxes, is that its citizens are socialized to understand integration and supporting the immigrant as solely a responsibility of the state. Therefore, it is not until the state itself is directly involved in something that seemed uncharacteristically anti-immigrant (as is the case in the 2010 elections to Parliament) that Sweden saw such an active reaction from its citizens.
09:42 October 11, 2010 by Keith #5083

Hmm, so you do condemn 'forced' marriages?

I,also, like you accept the beauty of the arranged marriage system - which is just as succesful as the 'marry for love' modern western tradition - and have many close friends who are happily married through that system.

However, the question as to what is 'force' and also the question of payments involved in most 'arranged marriages'.is one which requires scrutiny. In Sweden as in other western countries it is my understanding that freedoms exist to protect the rights of women.

Generally, in the West, a family member is not threatened with all manner of 'punishments' by parents who have no say in the persons choice of bride/bridegroom. Adulthood, in Western tradition nowadays, bestows the right of free choice. There may be the occasional exception (Catholic and Protestant for example). It is the exception as opposed to the 'old rule'.

re Grrr!

No, it does not mean that those instructing are wrong - they can instruct as much as they like in the old traditions, the old ways, the manner in which their religion dictates a thing must be.......this they can do as much as they like, in the 'old country'. In the 'new country', in this case Sweden, they can only do that within the legal requirements and, hopefully, cultural norms of this society. As indeed we westerners are required (not requested or invited but required) to do in many Eastern countries.

Of course there are those who are a special group of humans (I am AMAZED that you ask)....to instruct and discipline the rest. They are generally called 'religious leaders', it matters not which religion they claim to represent. Bless them, in their power-lust they have managed to create so many contradictions that thankfully mature free-thinking adults now manage to discard most if not all of these distortions.

Oh, and I don't think you answered me about whether you considered the parent's action in the case we discussed to be 'racist'. May I respectfully request an answer?

'Live and let live - unless it does harm to another'. Wasn't that the quote?

Hope u had an enjoyable weekend and sorry for the delaly in responding, I was travelling.
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