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Poverty on the rise among immigrants: study

The Local/gm · 2 Dec 2011, 12:18

Published: 02 Dec 2011 12:18 GMT+01:00

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”It is a real problem that poverty in Sweden has taken on an ethnic dimension,” said Björn Halleröd, sociology professor at Gothenburg university, to dail Dagens Nyheter (DN).

The report published in the paper revealed that 67 percent of those on long term benefits were born overseas, with unemployment being the main cause.

Using statistics from 2010, of the 117, 000 people on long term benefits, (defined in this case as over 10 months), 78,000 were from foreign countries.

Meanwhile the charity Save the Children has also flagged the problem of child poverty in Sweden.

In a recent survey carried out by the organisation, child poverty is markedly over-represented among those from a foreign background whose parents are unemployed.

To address the problem at government level, minister Maria Larsson is responsible for the welfare of children and the aged.

“It is a great failure of our society that it takes so long for so many people to get a job and an income. It must be frustrating for our new Swedes that it takes so long. It is a poor utilization of human resources,” she said.

“It is difficult when the foreign-born people lack basic education,” she added.

Story continues below…

“But how we welcome newcomers to Sweden and treat them, our attitudes and prejudices when a foreign-sounding name comes up, our ability to effectively educate and introduce them to the language, is also crucial."

Larsson promised that the government will continue their efforts to ensure that people get into work or study.

"The government will also review the income support system, so that there is not an immediate reduction in social benefits when a person starts to receive an income,” said Larsson.

The Local/gm (news@thelocal.se)

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Your comments about this article

13:58 December 2, 2011 by glamelixir
What about the unemployed overqualified immigrants that are not under any kind of benefit here in Sweden?
14:22 December 2, 2011 by GLO
You cant have people come unless you give them a job. Sorry No job, N

o come for free.
14:23 December 2, 2011 by godnatt
Shockingly when you import unskilled, uneducated chaff from the most unproductive, backwards, broken, violent parts of the world they don't become middle class Svenssons.

Perhaps some actual immigration standards are in order.
14:50 December 2, 2011 by Swedishmyth
Overall, how many of those immigrants are not from the Middle East or Africa?

Try looking at the few Western or East Asian immigrants we get and see if they do better. I strongly suspect they do. Wonder why...
14:50 December 2, 2011 by abaeterno
I'm an immigrant but from the UK. I had a very difficult time finding a full time job. I was given the job I now have because, as a temp, I impressed the bosses with my work ethic and attitude. It took me close to two years to find full time work. I am very over qualifed for the work but given the difficulties I had getting a job I am kinda happy to stick with it. The security is worth more than the low pay.

God only knows how difficult it would be if I were a black immigrant.

Most immigrants want to work and so do their children.

Affluent countries (like sweden) need to help those people from immigrant background to establish themselves so that the county is better equipt to make a stand on the international market. Leaving them to rot in the crappy suburbs is a drain on the counties finances (tax may need to be increased) and created social unrest.

This is pretty much the same in the UK but due to about 70 years of immigration the UK is not quite as bad as sweden thought the problem does exist.

Stop bitching about foriegn groups and get on with ur life.

The affluent 'west' is rich because of the way in which the international community exploits the poorest people. We drink the best coffee, eat exotic fruit and drive around in nice cars or take the clean fast subway. Have U ever been to Nairobi, Cairo, Bangalore etc.

and if 'godnatt' wants immigrants to become middle class svenssons then perhaps 'godnatt' can help out personally.
15:00 December 2, 2011 by Abe L
Right, these people should in the first place never have been let in. If you can not immediately start contributing to the Swedish economy you have no good reason to get a residence permit. Just wish the Swedish government would wake up and close borders for people that can't provide for them self and their families.

I also don't understand why these people get social benefits payed for by people who do work and pay taxes. Tax money should be invested in the people who pay it in the first place and not people who don't contribute. You'd imagine that with the climate in Sweden, shutting down benefits would solve the problem if people where to loose their homes.
15:17 December 2, 2011 by Swedishmyth

Or we can stop treating our country like a giant forced charity project. The productive proportion of Sweden's populace is being rapidly supplanted by money drains. "Racial discrimination" is a tiny factor compared to this.

I don't deny the fact that foreign names are often used as an excuse to toss resumes without closer inspection, and that this practice and mentality has an irrational origin. But it's also fueled by insane immigration policies that funnel enormous amounts of non-Westerners who don't even intend to work into the scarcely populated Sweden, all in the name of altruistic duty and multiculturalism.
15:24 December 2, 2011 by Paddy
Never fails to amaze me, how many right-wing people seem to have moved to Sweden.
15:44 December 2, 2011 by muscle
Swedish language is an issue. I am not saying that it is something bad, but strict rules regarding the language learning for immigrants should be enforced. Force the immigrants to be fluent and learn the language. Its difficult I understand, but the employers can not simply go for losses by having lower productivity arising due to language issues. Language builds trust among people.

People need to understand, if someone is coming to Sweden, then HE or SHE needs to adapt to the language, dont expect any changes from Sweden itself. Imagine a company having 100 employees, all swedish speaking. How do you think they are going to react when a non-swedish speaking person is among them? Chances are the non-swedish speaking person will be sidelined. It is not something that swedish-speaking personnel would want to do on purpose.. its natural and is present in many countries.

Like when arabs meet, and there is one Swedish speaking person among them, you dont expect the arabs to stop speaking arabic! Its a common issue across the globe. Thus, if someone is coming to Sweden, you need to be fluent in language.

Now comes the employers side. I would say, the consulting companies really are ruining the job market in Sweden. One job opening is published as 10 or more job openings, (each consulting company showing the advertisement of the same one job). It looks as if there are many many job opportunities which is fake.

Many of these consulting agencies have no proper HR personnel who could interview the candidates. Many times, there application systems are improper. In the past, many times I have sent CV, and later upon calling them I was informed the CV was not found in their systems! Then there are other cases. Rather then going through all applications, these consulting agencies, simply check for the right person in the initial cv's, other cv's are simply ignored and are dismissed without even getting checked!

I am sure of one thing, these consulting companies, though provide benefits to the employers, but they will ruin the job market in Sweden.
15:45 December 2, 2011 by occassional
The gap in education, skills and culture is for the most part to blame but it is the open door policies that truly exacerbate the problem and as we all know but hate to admit, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
16:09 December 2, 2011 by jan.petras
I'm a master student and I can't even find a place to stay (been searching since April) not even mentioning the dream of a job after I finish.
16:21 December 2, 2011 by SaxSymbol73
Please fix the story header: it should read "two thirds" instead of "one third".
16:54 December 2, 2011 by cowboykodp

Great insight and right on.

These imbeciles such as godnatt are an embarrassment to Americans. Its these people who give my beloved country a bad name.

The same "unskilled", and "uneducated" people this heartless person loves to pick on are the same people who are the engines of the US economy.

"But how we welcome newcomers to Sweden and treat them, our attitudes and prejudices when a foreign-sounding name comes up, our ability to effectively educate and introduce them to the language, is also crucial."

The above statement pretty much sums it up. Sweden will never be a great country until they address these issues.
17:12 December 2, 2011 by Svensksmith
The problem with bringing unskilled and under educated people into an economy like Sweden is that there are very few jobs for these people to fill. The same thing is happening in America. To be unskilled and under educated is a tremendous hurdle to clear. Not many can do it.
17:18 December 2, 2011 by Smiling Canuk
#7 seems to have some good points. From my occasional lurking on this site, I am under the impression that Canada is a bit more selective who is let in to our country in the first place. We do accept refugees but we prefer immigrants who have something to offer with their job skills. For example I just read recently how our immigration department has recruited and "fast tracked" a large group of skilled German tradesment because their skills are needed in the oil patch in Alberta. Sweden seems to have accepted a large number of people that are not a cultural match to the mainstream society all in the name of being "charitable". We have some of that also which is also a source of debate over here, but it seems this is a major problem with Swedish immigration policies. Then there is also the problem of the Swedish language. Most people around the world speak English to some degree. Who outside of Sweden speaks Swedish? Not speaking the Swedish language must be a huge problem for job seekers?
18:06 December 2, 2011 by Swedishmyth

The US does not get the same kind of immigrants as Sweden, and its system doesn't treat them in the same way either politically or culturally. I'd like to see the employment rate (legal or not) of Mexicans as compared to our ME's and Africans.
18:08 December 2, 2011 by nirmalkamal
I think swedish government have to give visa or pr all ligal and illigal people in sweden and stop to take asylum seekers. thanks.
18:37 December 2, 2011 by Ludde Svensson
It's much easier to find a job in Sweden if you can speak English. I don't speak Swedish and I have been living and working here since 2009. I have never received any benefits -- even though I probably could have applied to get some. I consider myself fully integrated, I like the culture, the people, I dance around the maypole during midsummer. Now, if I could not speak English, it would be a completely different story, I admit. All Swedes are fluent in English and the official language of the company where I work is also English.
18:42 December 2, 2011 by Social Hypocrisy
What a bunch of tools!

Mind you if I was a uneducated looser trying to suck as much away as possible from society as possible, I'd probably hate immigrants too.

Get off you fat behinds and do the 3 years hard slog that's needed to get a degree, if your not intelligent enough stop complaining. Take defeat like a adult instead of whining like a baby.

If a swede meets you with hostility... take it as a complement!

(Think about it... there scared:)
18:53 December 2, 2011 by tadchem
So what is Sweden doing to try to attract millionaire immigrants?
19:00 December 2, 2011 by Social Hypocrisy
Well taking a huge bite out of their profits to pay for lazy arses to sit at home living the Life of Riley, is a huge incentive.
19:07 December 2, 2011 by rumcajs
@Swedishmyth: YES, USA gets the same kind of immigrants.... from Mexico! They get a job quicker coz americans can't stand the nasty sun in California picking vegetables AND USA is a country made of immigrants = no name sounds foreign.

@Abe L: Yes, you can't get a residence permit if you can't contribute to the country's economy .... even if you are European. BUT these guys are refugees or family members of someone who's already got a residence permit and different rules apply to them.

@godnatt: It's easy to b**ch around when you've been lucky. Imagine that we do the same you say, but between areas of a city. That poor ones couldn't go to Central Stockholm coz it's posh..... llots of us work there... it's where the companies and jobs are, but we just can't get in. 70% of the ciity would starve, the same as the 70% of the world would starve if we listened to people like you!!! Now, if you say that ain't your prob, I would just stop thinking you are a person!!!
19:17 December 2, 2011 by godnatt
@cowlick et al

Haha. I'm willing to bet 100 to 1 the Asian immigrants in Sweden aren't having nearly the same problems as other "particular" immigrant groups.

Only you would be delusional enough to compare US and Swedish immigration as though they are the same.

God forbid Sweden should look after the interests of its ACTUAL citizens and import people who are capable of contributing to a modern society.

Proceed to stick heads in sand and regurgitate platitudes.
19:27 December 2, 2011 by zoroastrina
godnatt menschenverachtende Ansichten are the absolute contradiction of one of the central values of philosophical ethics as enunciated by Kant: Every human being is a "Selbstzweck", "une fin en soi", "an end in itself". My impoverished Irish mother had a mantra: "The rich [or the well off] think their

s--t don't (sic) stink." godnat's views are disgusting, ITS views are abominable and emit a revolting and nauseating ethical stench.
19:37 December 2, 2011 by Svensksmith
These types of articles usually generate two types of responses:

A. Don't let any immigrants in, they are contributing to a rise in crime, they are draining the economy with their multi-generational dependency on welfare, they are changing the culture, breeding like rabbits, etc.


B. It is the responsibility of the wealthy nations to help out those who are poor and displaced. Immigrants bring in new ideas, music, foods, etc. They are to be embraced, loved and welcomed.

There are points to be conceded to both camps. Personally, I do believe in charity and donate (when I can) to homeless shelters, the Red Cross, UMCOR and other worthwhile organizations. Seeing as how I am not missing any meals and have a roof over my head, I think it is the right thing to do. I do not, however, donate to the point that my own family is destitute nor do I invite homeless people to come live in my house. Charity does have its limits.
19:44 December 2, 2011 by Rick Methven
"nor do I invite homeless people to come live in my house. Charity does have its limits"

20:23 December 2, 2011 by Svensksmith
Well, if it was a homeless gal and she was hot I might.
20:25 December 2, 2011 by cowboykodp
@ The retard American traitor, godnatt;

Asian immigrants? Did you watch Uppdrag Granskning last night.

If it was up to you and your moronic bigoted disciples, you would say all Asian immigrants are sex workers at Thai massage parlors.

My Asian friends in Sweden will tell you the same thing. That finding jobs in Sweden is a BYATCH for them too. Yes, I have Asian friends too.

By the way, I know this is above your pay grade and education; but there are Muslim Asians also. OOPS.


I don't really know the stats on Africans in the US, but I can tell you without a doubt that ME Jews and Muslims are among the most successful immigrants in the US.

Both in private and public sector . Not to mention, some of the most successful business owners.
21:11 December 2, 2011 by skatty
I think the greater problem is that many can't leave Sweden to somewhere else.

There are some, who successfully leave Sweden (like doctors, nurses); if they get a chance to get a good job to show their experience on their CV to the employers in other country.

I mean Swedish immigrants just with a University degree can't emigrate somewhere else. Everywhere ask people with some years of experience in their field.

The problem with Sweden is that it really takes long time for refugees (I consider most of immigrants as refugees) to figure out the reality of life in the country. It takes so long time that practically refugees figure out the problem, when it's too late and almost impossible to move to somewhere else. Mostly get lot of education without any job experience in their field of education, which make them not even employable somewhere else.
21:45 December 2, 2011 by GLO
Close the Bridge. Problem solved.
21:59 December 2, 2011 by Chickybee
I'm a Scottish-Swede living in Luxembourg which is about three times weathier than Sweden.

Immigrants both EU/non-EU are welcome but they must support themselves or be able to master at least 3-4 foreign languages and have at least Bac+3/5 education - that's BA(Hons) and Master's. I feel they are quite right to have this mindset.

Luxembourg has a draconian immigration and actively deports those whom it deems are not real refugees. Lack of poverty ethnic minorities may be a factor but as it's a small country Luxembourg has the sense to be compassionate within its means while giving generously in overseas aid.

Luxembourg has avoided clashes with Muslim minorities because simply coming to Luxembourg is very difficult in the first place.
22:01 December 2, 2011 by hughknows
This article is all over the place.

It speaks of 'child poverty', 'poverty' and being on 'social benefits' interchangeably. If, as the article makes out, the terribly poor 67 percent of people on long-term benefits who are foreign-born, are truly in poverty then why would the measures need to be taken that are mentioned in the last sentence. i.e. :

'"The government will also review the income support system, so that there is not an immediate reduction in social benefits when a person starts to receive an income," said Larsson.'

Why would you need to bribe someone like this to get a job? Unless being jobless did not equal deprivation...

It's true that Swedes don't like to hire foreigners. It's true that they only usually give 'lowly' working class jobs to foreigners. But that's another issue, and doesn't address the premise of this article - which concerns 'poverty' in Sweden. Racism and problems of social mobility and class structure in the society, sure criticize all you want. But you certainly can't fault Sweden for not housing and feeding foreigners!

The issue of poverty - the only way I can see for 'poverty' to be 'on the rise' in famously socialist Sweden, is if there are a lot of illegal immigrants who are neither employed nor on the benefits books. The article doesn't mention this however.

I'm sure many working American or British families who are trying to save for their children's education are living with less spending money than beneficiaries in Sweden, where, remember, university education is still free!

The Heritage Foundation makes a good argument about the word poverty being badly defined by both governments, NGOs and media because in modern Western countries it now rarely matches the traditional idea of 'near destitution: an inability to provide nutritious food, clothing, and reasonable shelter for one's family.'

Take the USA where 46 million persons classified as in poverty by the Census Bureau whereas this does not reflect the much smaller number who are actually lacking nutritious food, clothing, and shelter. The following are facts about persons defined as "poor" by the Census Bureau as taken from various government reports:

80 percent of poor households have air conditioning. In 1970, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.

92 percent of poor households have a microwave.

Nearly three-fourths have a car or truck, and 31 percent have two or more cars or trucks.

Nearly two-thirds have cable or satellite TV.

Two-thirds have at least one DVD player, and 70 percent have a VCR.

Half have a personal computer, and one in seven have two or more computers.

More than half of poor families with children have a video game system, such as an Xbox or PlayStation.

43 percent have Internet access.

One-third have a wide-screen plasma or LCD TV.

One-fourth have a digital video recorder system, such as a TiVo.
22:09 December 2, 2011 by godnatt
@ cowlick

Of course, you have a "friend" who is (Muslim / Asian / Hare Krishna / Hopi Shaman / Pygmy witch doctor/ half Labrador Retriever)...

...therefore you speak for all Americans and Swedes that Sweden doesn't need more effective immigration policies.

Brilliant reasoning as always. I'm sold.

@ Svensksmith

22:22 December 2, 2011 by jvtx3232
"Well, if it was a homeless gal and she was hot I might."

Ha ha good one Svensksmith! ;)

I just thought of something. One effective way to combat unemployment among immigrants would be to send permanently all of the unemployed ones back to their countries of origin. That would improve the unemployment statistics, significantly reducing the unemployment rate.
22:29 December 2, 2011 by calebian22
"It is difficult when the foreign-born people lack basic education," she added.

Yes, Sweden is incredibly xenophobic, no doubt. My fellow service techs like me, and they call me jävla amerikanare everyday. Imagine how long it would take in the US before being called into Human resources if you tried joking around with f-ing Mexican as your go to joke.

However, Larsson's addendum pretty much sums up a sadly large percentage of immigrants . Stop by SFI and look in on group A. Not a westerner or an Asian in site and the rooms are packed with people who can't read in their own language. No need I guess when, you are a baby factory or a goat herder.
22:32 December 2, 2011 by cowboykodp
@Retarded godnatt;

I actually have a Lab. Weird HA?

No one said that Sweden should not have a better immigration policy , you tw@t.

(your words)

The problem is unless Sweden figures out a way to help immigrants find jobs, even if they are not Svenssons, things will not change.

Dumb morons like you would never understand this. So, I suggest you go back to the US and let REAL Swedes and concerned immigrants figure this out.

If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.

In Sweden compassion wins and racism dies.

23:23 December 2, 2011 by swedejane
Unless Sweden is willing to import the entire population of the African continent, its leaders should devise a sensible immigration plan based on the real world. I'm by no means anti-immigrant...I'm from another western nation, gainfully employed in Sweden and paying taxes...but it makes no sense to have people uproot their entire lives, relocate to a completely different culture and language, only to sit in their sad one room apartment collecting a meager monthly check from the government every month.

I guess I'm confused as to why it's the swedish government's responsibility to find these people jobs. Isn't our own personal responsibility to find a job? To develop valuable skills? I'm sure there is some institutionalized racism, but probably no greater than any other white majority western nation...and, frankly, probably no greater than ANY racially dominant culture (be it indian, asian, arabic, hispanic, etc.). The rules for starting a new business should be reworked to make it easier (it's a complete bitch right now), restructure the tax issues around stock options, and reduce all uneducated refugee type immigration by 90% for the next 5 years. If you're educated, then you get a year to find a job or start a business.
23:36 December 2, 2011 by Los Lubricano
Sweden and other countries opened the floodgates to these third

world people. Are your countries better off as far as crime. welfare

riots ect than before this was allowed? If you answer yes you are better

off, you are a third world immigrant or a liar. You can't make chicken

salad out of chicken manure. Is you country as safe as it was before

the bleeding hearts took over and let these people come in droves.
23:36 December 2, 2011 by Migga
I`m not surprised, it`s obvious to the eye. Of everyone on social benefits 70% are foreign born. Now imagine how many people with social benefits who have parents who are foreign born. The number would go up to atleast 85%.

I don`t blame the immigrants. But it`s a clear sign that the system isn`t working. The policies are wrong and the politicans are out of touch with reality. But if you speak up you get called a racist. Even tho you only want whats good for everyone. Because immigrants and natives both suffer. Immigrants mostly. So why add even more? Why put even more into this situation? If we only adopted half of the policies in Canada or Australia we would all be better off. But then the left and the media would call you racist.
00:24 December 3, 2011 by spo10
I've been living in Sweden for 3 years now and I the only time I was able to work was on the summer of 2009 as a janitor. I have been applying for jobs ever since I started studying in SFI but nothing. Now I've finished SFI, SAS, Svenska A, and atm I'm currently studying in Komvux. I've been applying everywhere, constantly looking up for ads on this site and even registered myself to 3-4 recruitment agencies and yes, I'm on Arbetsförmedlingen too but NOTHING!

My point is, we immigrants don't want to be a burden in this country. Like myself, my classmates did everything they can to get themselves jobs. Some were lucky and the others (like me) were simply not. And come on, only an ignorant would say that immigrants are uneducated and useless. You obviously need to travel to open those damn eyes.
01:27 December 3, 2011 by Los Lubricano
Well if nobody in Sweden will hire you after 3 years it time to go traveling.

Libya is hiring.
02:59 December 3, 2011 by godnatt
@ cowlick

Surprisingly, there other countries that actually pair needed SKILLS and/or a job as a condition of immigration so they DON'T HAVE this problem.

But of course that would be RACIST. Because "skilled labor" is a just euphemism for racism.

Perhaps Sweden hasn't magically "figured it out" since lowering unemployment involves there actually being a DEMAND for the supply of labor and even the world's greatest nanny state can't magically create it.

So the market continually floods with unneeded supply that lacks the most basic skills and often holds values antithetical to Western liberal democracy and shockingly...

ACTUAL employers who have a nut to make (not the fantasy ones who create magical jobs out of kindness) aren't jumping to hire them and favor Swedish educated natives first.

Labor economics, also just more racism of course.

Brilliant response though. Your use of "dumb moron" really made your incisive understanding of the issue clear.
08:50 December 3, 2011 by spo10
@Los Lubricano

You seem to miss the point but anyway, if you love Libya so much then go there yourself. Then yet again, maybe you thought I was Libyan in the first place. Don't stereotype man, makes you look like a fool.
09:47 December 3, 2011 by alieninsweden
'When it comes to the discrimination of migrants and their descendants, particularly non-white and non-European groups, Sweden barely differs from any other western country today. Particularly when it comes to housing, Sweden stands out for its highly racialized patterns of residential segregation.' Tobias Hübinette and Catrin Lundström

If this is the case for residential affairs, should it be surprising that it is also the case for employment affairs? As the Swedish scholars accurately point out, Sweden has quite some way to go with regards to living up to its public self-image as an egalitarian, tolerant society...
10:19 December 3, 2011 by HYBRED
Make no mistake; if you are an immigrant in Sweden you will get some racist type ridicule sooner or later. It makes no difference how pasty white or crispy black you are, or how good of job you have, or even if you have one. It seems to be a favorite pass time of native Swede's.

There are immigrant's here that come to Sweden from bad places and don't know what it is to have a job and work. Sweden is not the place to learn work ethics. Swede's have no clue what hard work is. The only reason they show up at 8:00am for work is so they can go to breakfast at 9:00am, and then lunch at 11:00am. Customer service seems to be illegal in Sweden.

The economy to blame? According to Bork and Reinfeld, Sweden has the best and most stable economy in the world. So this is as good as it gets.
10:50 December 3, 2011 by cowboykodp

If someone is calling you a RACIST because you say "we should have a better immigration policy", then THEY are the fools.


When you speak so eloquently as you did in your post #42, people listen and respond positively. The issue with you and Uncle and others is when you blame a situation on a religion.

Poverty, stereotypes and lack of education are the culprits.

Yes, conservative religions play A role, but not any where near the above mentioned points/causes.

Its hard for you to believe, but given a level playing field: Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists,... all want to work and feel part of a society.
11:31 December 3, 2011 by David_from_San_Diego
(a) Why do you let them in ?

(b) The cause of child poverty is people who can't afford to have children, but have them anyway ... LOTS of them ... Here is what socialism does in America:

11:33 December 3, 2011 by spo10

very well said
12:01 December 3, 2011 by mafketis
Import tens of thousands of people with low social capital (and with no interest in raising their social capital) and whose values are almost the mirror image of the host country and you'll get...

More or less what Sweden is getting now. I hope the Swedish public is ready for more, lots more.

This kind of failure is so easy to predict it's boring.
12:57 December 3, 2011 by Adam_H
What the heck is child poverty?

It doesn't mean anything.

It is just some mindless piece of newspeak that the idiot left have recently invented.

What next?

Dog poverty?
13:39 December 3, 2011 by Summer Dreams
yeah and cat poverty, chicken poverty.
14:04 December 3, 2011 by seborga82
15:41 December 3, 2011 by godnatt
All that should be OBVIOUS to anyone who cares about FACTS over feel good nonsense.

The same is true of the social aspects that impede integration like the over-exaggeration of Islamic moderation.

In "moderate" countries like Egypt, 80%+ of people believe converters from Islam should be KILLED and adulterers should be KILLED. (Pew Research, not a conservative rag, along with plenty others.)

In Pakistan 62% identify themselves with reformist "modernizers" while at the same time 76% believe in the death penalty for converters from Islam.

THESE ARE YOUR "MODERATES" if you'd like to meet them.

Moderate to us does not mean moderate to them.

But of course we should ignore what they actually SAY THEY BELIEVE and believe you and your anecdotes.

We should ignore the QUANTIFIED DATA showing their degrading views of women, Jews, non-believers and disdain for our liberal freedoms that virtually GUARANTEE them isolation and social friction when they come here.

Is this ALL Muslims? No. But it's hundreds upon hundreds of millions. In the Muslim world, it's MOST if you bother to LOOK.

In reality, REAL moderates are the EXCEPTION, not the rule.

If you cared about the FACTS instead of repeating what they told you in second grade maybe you'd think about what the consequences are of creating self replicating ghettos filled with these sorts of nasty, primitive, intolerant beliefs.

Proceed with meaningless anecdote.
18:03 December 3, 2011 by HYBRED
meaningless anecdote
20:38 December 3, 2011 by oliver from moon
For all of you `` close the bridge`` , `` close the border`` and `` let`s send all immigrants back home`` AND problem solved people.

You are one step away from `` let`s put all immigrants to concentration/ work camp``

I keep asking myself: is this some nazi forum or is this normal cut of swedish society. I have not figured out this yet

I must say....it is kind of educating to read this forum and understand bettter swedish society.

Thank you for free lessons you all highly cultural people.
23:04 December 3, 2011 by mafketis
oliver, you are boring and banal and have nothing to offer.

Do you have any constructive proposals?
12:59 December 4, 2011 by Snob
I think frankly Sweden requires a good old-fashioned robust UPPER CLASS at the pinnacle of a society where the classes are relatively well-defined, as prevalent at the end of 19th century...The fuzzy-duzzy Nordic cool egalitarianism has met the end of the road with globalization, global forces of competition and entry of immigrants. Start with the egalitarian cool society with a nonsense provocative avant-garde culture was a disneyland version of human reality which was not going to work anyway. Incidents like the Breivik clearly demonstrate the need for a nice succinct Elite attached to the Royal household which can preserve and perpetuate icons of national symbols. Immigrants should adhere to the ethos and symbols of the upper-class and appreciate that this their host society's heritage and not rant and rave liberal gibberish of cultural relativism. We have the rise of these funky 'laddies', modern IT version of petty-bourgeoisie who are IT experts churning out programs which make the economy work well, get drunk on weekends, talk liberal cool platitudes and watch obscene sports like car-racing. Man come on where is the distinction of refinement and culture?? The sooner Sweden starts accepting and welcoming a non-birth based nobility of culture and heritage than it will be better and we can prevent the frightening rise of far-right. It makes me angry how the Breivik incident is misinterpreted across the Nordic belt as an issue of freedom of expression, just rubbish, only if we had outlets like the Prussian aristocracy and its custodianship of the army we could have absorbed and tempered such violent forces.

As an immigrant your white 'smart alec' laddie petty bourgeoisie pal teaches you to disrespect cultural symbols, icons and defy the authority and upper echelons of society like the police and you learn these bad habits. This perpetuates across generations and we have the immigrant underclass, trust me I have worked with immigrant-integration groups of Sweden and other Nordic Europe where the white dudes were really defending backward regressive customs and traditions.

So lets just have role models in the upper -class nobility and immigrants should be encouraged to follow. Just visit Pakistan and you have sleek elites with Birkini bags, designer wear and a strict feudal order and here in Sweden we receive and encourage the worst of these societies in the name of egalitarian democracy!!
23:36 December 4, 2011 by aab05001
For those racists who all the time have no job except attacking people belonging to the Middle East, you should read this:

1- Arab and Muslim immigrants are not integrated, and thus do not do as good as other West European and East Asian immigrants because the society does not accept them. It's not about being skilled or educated. I think everyone was shocked few years ago when knowing that companies had secretly demanded that the clean workers to be native Swedish women (was revealed by Orebo radio). So the issue is not about being skilled or educated. Nevertheless, there are lots of educated and skilled Arab immigrants, but the companies discriminate them. Everyone knows that when the applicant name is Abdulla or Ahman, the application will be then sorted out.

2-When you go to REKLAM, distributing newspapers companies, you will find that the vast majority of the workers are immigrants, who most of them are Arabs. If anything, this indicates that these people are, like other groups, are seriously looking for jobs and not just want to sit home.

3-The language is not an issue. This is all the time used as an excuse. In the oil-rich Arab states, there are so many westerners who work and get a lot of money. The vast majority of them do not speak Arabic at all. Yet they get jobs. The point is that there are many jobs which do not require you to master the language. I know an Australian man who does not speak Swedish at all, and nevertheless he works as a boss at an airport south Sweden. The language is an weapon used as an excuse in order to isolate Arabs and discriminate them in all sectors in the society. When a French or Italian does not speak the language, people still find it interesting to talk to them and communicate with them. On the other hand, if you are a Middle Easterner who do not speak the language, people push you away by saying that they don't speak English. The irony is that, when you speak Swedish, they will find other excuses! Of course that does not mean immigrants with a Middle Easterner background do not master the language. The vast majority of them do so except the very newcomers, and still they don't jobs.

4-Last but not least, do not talk too much about tax payers! The West has colonized the whole Middle East in the past, and murdered millions of people there, and exploited the natural resources there and financed many of the Western industries out of other people suffering. France for example was indebted to Algeria in the past. But thereafter, France colonized Algeria for 130 years, and killed 1 million and a half, and stole the natural resources there, and bombed the country back to the stone age. Italy did so in Libya. The West did so in Palestine. The US is doing so in Iraq. It's the West who made this part of the world backward.
06:48 December 5, 2011 by nathan45

How was this allowed to happen!?

Did they think bringing thousands of unskilled third world people here was going to be a good thing for the country. What a fine use of tax dollars that could be used for helth care, education and so on Im just amazed wow!
08:52 December 5, 2011 by Robert69
In response to #58-

1- In arab culture, it is demeaning to do hard work. People want everything on a silver plate and have a fatalistic attitude to everything. Do you dispute this?

2- Taking away jobs from other European job seeking migrants is bad.

3-. Yes this a code that Swedes don't like arabs and don't want arabs in Sweden.

4- Yes colonialism is a bitch, and yet China, gulf countries and India have progressed tremendously despite this. I wonder why...

5- What about racial discrimination in gulf countries? Top jobs are always given to local arabs and the leftovers to the rest and it's completely legal. Hypocritical are we?
09:23 December 5, 2011 by mafketis

"Arab and Muslim immigrants are not integrated, and thus do not do as good as other West European and East Asian immigrants because the society does not accept them."

Integration means accepting and respecting the culture of the country you've moved to. Why whould Swedish people accept newcomers who don't want to integrate?

"that companies had secretly demanded that the clean workers to be native Swedish women (was revealed by Orebo radio). So the issue is not about being skilled or educated"

The thinking is this: "If you hire a Muslim in the west, you'll have to make all kinds of ridiculous concessions so that they can practice their faith, special prayer times, a whole month of very reduced productivity, head coverings, complaints about no pork, blah blah blah. Muslim insistence on bending the local environment to serve their religion has created large incentives to not employ muslims. Don't blame people for responding to incentives.

"these people are, like other groups, are seriously looking for jobs and not just want to sit home"

It's not enough to want a job, you need to have something to offer the employer. Many (not all but many) people from the middle east are simply unemployable in that they don't have any skills that will balance out restructuring the workplace to suit their religion.

"The language is not an issue."

Yes it is. It is, in many ways _the_ issue. Swedishf people learn English for their own purposes which do not include making it easier for non-Swedes to live in Sweden for years without knowing the language. Don't flatter yourself.

"In the oil-rich Arab states, there are so many westerners who work and get a lot of money. The vast majority of them do not speak Arabic at all. Yet they get jobs."

A long term resident in an Arab country needs to learn the local version of Arabic. I do not respect those who don't. But also note that they don't suck up social service money....

"The West has colonized the whole Middle East "

Ah yes, the fabled Swedish middle eastern colony Muhammedberg with its glittering capital Johanssoniya.....

Colonialism was wrong and didn't help but Sweden was not part of that and many places that suffered worse managed to get their act together. By now "colonialism" is just another excuse for not pulling your economic weight.
00:01 December 6, 2011 by aab05001
A reply to Robert69 and mafketis:

1-You say:''People want everything on a silver plate and have a fatalistic attitude to everything''....No comments! This is a purely racist comment which considers others as underdeveloped in their nature!

2-In the gulf countries, Westerners are treated as kings. They get the highest salaries. In these countries, there is no racial discrimination. Rather, there is a social (or class) discrimination, which is pf course also bad.

3-Yes integration means accepting others, and Arabs are accepting Swedish culture. No one is asking Sweden to become a Muslim country or to change its culture. However, keeping one's culture has nothing to do with not accepting the others culture. Arabs should not be asked to celebrate Christmas for example, or to not wear the veil. That's a personal freedom. The Westerners who work abroad also keep their culture. I did not see any Westerner in Dubai fasts in Ramadan, or prays in the mosque. They keep their cultures. Moreover, not only Arabs want to keep their culture, also other groups do so, but people talk only about others. Latino groups keep their Catholic traditions. Thai people go to their temple in Stockholm. Chinese people keep their traditions. I don't understand why people are attacking Arabs despite they are, like others, accepting the Swedish norms and values. Did anyone say to Swedes to not eat pork? Did anyone say that Swedish women should wear the veil? I think all the talks regarding this reflects high level of hatred, nothing else, for Arabs in this society.

4-Get lost! This is merely propaganda. The employer does not need to do anything special for the Arab workers. There are lots of Arabs working in companies, and we did not hear about them demanding new measures.

5-I know Sweden is not part of colonialism, though it is part of the American wars in the Middle East. I talk about colonization because I'm addressing this problem from abroad sense.
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